Hoosjim's 16th. Looks like we're piecing, folks.

[hoosjim]

Why does your W talk to him at all? Why is your W still working there?

1) We need the money
2) She really enjoys the job, particularly the patients she works with, many of whom have been coming to the clinic as long as she has been there (26 years).

She talks to that doc because he is the "senior doctor" in the practice, although not her direct superior--she actually reports to the practice manager-- and because they have become "friends". My wife is a friendly, open person, it is a small, collegial practice, and this doctor at some point obviously struck up a friendship with her. Also, my W is particularly close with this doctor's secretary, and she (the other secretary) is a regular participant in these "stay afters". For further color, the practice manager to whom she reports is the son of the doctor who founded the practice and for whom she originally worked when she came there out of undergrad school-- it is a relatively small practice with 5 docs, an x ray tech, and a PT clinic across the hall with several PTs, and then the respective admin and billing personnel. My W is technically the front office supervisor-- supervising the secretaries/receptionists while also serving as secretary to one of the doctors as well (not THE doctor.) On a completely coincidental note, i was friends with the founding doctor's daughter in college, but never met my W through her, and never even made the connection that that doctor was my friends' Father until AFTER my W and i had gotten together.

And, no, i am not comfortable with it, but W says, "we are just friends", "I am not 'on the hunt' for anyone and i am confident that he is not" and "I know what boundaries to keep."

After reading a newbie's thread today, where all 3 of the OM had befriended him, the LBS, before getting with his W, I am starting to wonder if the simple "smash the OM's face" approach is not the best.

Holy S. THREE guys that befriended him to get to his W? That's a new level of waywardness, and a new level of doormat-hood. Poor guy. Man... I can sympathize, though. It's one thing to lose your W to another man, it's a whole nother level of painful to lose her to a "friend" or someone you thought of as a friend. In my case, pretty sure the scumbag targeted me and played a waiting game solely to get at my W.

And, yes, the "new" me does in fact believe there is a place and time for punching the OM's lights out... "Man to Man" so to speak. If what happened to me in 1/17 happened to me now? There'd be fisticuffs. There almost were in my case later on, in August, after i had "woken up". Only the fact that dude was with his son probably prevented it... At least the son found out what his old man had been up to.

This doc sounds like a real piece of work. Does he not care about his reputation? Does his W know about all his antics?

According to my W, no one thinks anything of these after work get togethers... even the good doctor's wife... and i have specifically asked about that. In fairness, his W has actually been to a handful of these. All of which is pretty strange to me. I work in the legal community, and also have worked quite a bit in military circles, and there is no way in hell a married man in my organization could invite two women, one married and one much younger to stay after work and have a drink after hours in the office. In fact, i might be fired for doing so. But apparently no one bats an eyelash at this. IDK. Its really a head scratcher.

[SteveLW]

HJ, definitely some red flags. Of course, this is why I was for you taking her up on her offer to quit this job back in the thick of your sitch. If nothing else than to avoid these kinds of thoughts on your part in the future. But water under the bridge. I still find it hard to believe she couldn't find another job, but whatever.

I think the wine downs should be verboten at this point.

[JRuss]

The doctor is making intimacy overtures to your wife, plain and simple. It may not in his mind be as a means to take things further to a physical level, but he's clearly opening up his (troubled) marriage to your wife and divulging very private things to her; he would be, if your wife allowed it, a willing emotional affair partner at this point. That she's his employee makes it even more inappropriate. Get a therapist, buddy. It's ridiculous, really.

Perhaps she could say something to him along the lines of "I know you're in a difficult place, but I'm friends with both you and your wife, and I don't feel comfortable having these sorts of conversations". It isn't waywardness on her part that she doesn't fully grasp how and why this is inappropriate AND a potential or actual trigger for you, but she ought to be able to hear you tell her your truth and follow through to nip this in the bud. It's been going on for a long time.

[ovrrnbw]

My W, her sister, and your W all have boundary issues (they wouldn't be cheaters if they didn't, right)? Does your W know she has issues with boundaries? It's something she needs to be working on. When people discuss serious issues, they demonstrate comfort with one another, they become closer, they build trust. None of these things should be happening with your W and the OM. This guy is a rat POS, I just wouldn't be comfortable with her working there. That's the last time I'll say it.

I think that deep down, your W really does know that these calls, these get togethers are not appropriate. If you're a single gal at the office, it's still not appropriate to drink and fraternize with a married man who is your boss. They all know it's not quite right, but they all are willing to overlook b/c blahblahblah.

Everyone at the office is aware of what happened with your W and the OM, right? I think your wife needs to set new boundaries at the office (if she stays). She says she knows what boundaries to keep but from over here things are looking quite blurry.

Thanks for sharing and responding on everything Jim, it's been great for me.

[AnotherStander]

Perhaps she could say something to him along the lines of "I know you're in a difficult place, but I'm friends with both you and your wife, and I don't feel comfortable having these sorts of conversations".

And then give him a good, swift kick to the nuts. Man I am so sick and tired of this a-hole, I wish we could take him behind the woodshed and teach him a few rules on how to be a southern gentleman.

[hoosjim]

Quick update:

W and I had a little trust/doubt issue this past Thursday, but, in a strange twist of fate, the roles were reversed. As part of my GAL's during the A, i cultivated a local pub as a hangout. Became a regular, made some new friends, there (including the owner), got a couple of my own friends interested who now frequent the place, etc. Thursdays were my day to go there, as it is only about 6-7 minutes from my house and I work out of the house on Thursdays. Typically, i would go there in the late afternoon, take my laptop, sit out on the outdoor patio, and finish up my admin work while enjoying a beverage and listening to live musicians when they have one. Then i would typically hang out for a couple hours after that. It's become my regular Thursday afternoon "Me" time.

Now, W, when we started the on-again off-again reconcilliation process, would drop by there sometimes herself (I had indicated she was welcome to do so) as it is on her way home from work, and she has gone there some on her own with her own friends occasionally. She is a little leary of the attractive young lady bartender with whom i am friendly (she's convinced she gets the cold shoulder from her when she is there with me) but otherwise likes and enjoys going to the place herself.

At any rate, this past Thursday, W calls me from work: "Where are you?" she asks. "On the toll road", I say. "Why on the tollroad?" "Because I'm going to the pub" I answer. "Oh" she says. A slight pause. "Are you going to drop by?" I ask. "No, i was going to go home and get some stuff together to send to ______" (Our nephew who is recovering from surgery) "Is _____________ (my buddy) going to be there?" She asks. "Not sure", I reply "With the weather the way it is [it was crappy rainy] he's not sure how traffic will be. He's said he's going to try to show, but if he does not, I'll prolly come back early and not make an evening of it." "Okay" she says, "If you get back early enough, maybe we can make the care package together." "K", i say, "See you later."

So, long story short, my buddy DOES show, but tells me he is going to be later than usual. This has happened once or twice before, so i think nothing else about it, order him his drink before happy hour ends and he is there a couple minutes after 7. We hang out, have a couple, and at 8 (when i would normally be leaving) i text W: "___________ and i are finishing up our drinks. Heading home soon. Love ya." No reply. I get home about 8:40 and she is already in bed. I climb in bed and try talking and snuggling up to her a bit, but she is "asleep" or playing possum. She murmurs back in response, so I go downstairs, make a snack, watch some of the news, and come back up to bed about 10.

Next morning i ask her "you sure everything's okay?" She's a bit short but says "yes". Later on during the workday, i propose we meet for a drink and a crabcake at an open air restaurant near her office. She says okay, and when i get there she starts apologizing... "Sorry i'm hormonal right now"... "I know nothing's going on"... "I just sometimes get like this from time to time...and i know deep down you wouldn't but i still get these fleeting thoughts like he's made all these new friends and now he's going to show up one day like 'payback's a b***h, meet Suzie". So we hold hands across the table and talk about it, and i tell her "you know im all in on this, right? And that if i wasn't i wouldn't be here... i wouldn't have come back. I don't want anyone else." She says "I know"... and we talk about the importance of communication, and i say i know i could have been clearer about my plans, and will be so in the future, and that we should expect that of each other.

So, all good. But it was interesting how the roles have flip flopped, isn't it? The change in her demeanor has truly been profound. She's actually worried about losing me.

So, i guess the morals of the story are: 1) Communication and openness and transparency are crucial to building or rebuilding trust, 2) WW's can and do change their stripes and, i would add 3) It is important for both spouses to understand and believe that the other one is "all in"... What my pastor calls the principle of "I will stay", meaning "I will stick by you and stay with you no matter what." This principle allows you to be open and honest and conflict (when necessary) with your spouse fairly and with good rather than bad outcomes.

[hoosjim]

Seeking input.

For those who followed my sitch, you are familiar with the dynamic with W's and my respective bffs, my W's bff's role in my W's affair, and the sitch with their (our respective bff's, who WERE married to each other) marriage. If you're not, I'll try to thumbnail, but it is ridiculously convoluted/complicated/incestuous, so better off prolly if you review my threads (if you are interested-- but largely i am seeking input from those already familiar with my sitch-- i just can't expect someone new to go back and digest all of that.)

AAR, thumbnail: Our respective bffs met through us and were married to each other. My bff is friend/fraternity brother from college, and W's bff is likewise a college friend, though a couple of years younger. W's bff cheated on my friend during engagement, and then again shortly after marriage (same partner). They "worked it out" and went on to have 3 kids. Shortly before my own W's affair, her bff started an affair with another of my college friends (another one of my frat bros) who at the time my own friend considered to be his "best friend." Before my friend found out about this, he got BD from his W, who embarked on a several month GGW/WW spree with my own W, the centerpiece of which for my W was an A with a close friend of mine who had also become friends with my W's bff. W's bff supposedly broke it off with her AP a few weeks before my own friend found out... from our mutual friend who invited him down for a weekend, announced he had had an A with my friend's W, and basically taunted him for being a bad H. (Dude is pretty much an A-hole... not someone i had ever myself considered a close friend even as my own good friend had become pretty close with him.) Some time thereafter, my friends W resumed (if she had ever stopped it) her A with same guy. Went through the motions of "trying to figure them out" but my friend never put his foot down or set good boundaries and she basically ran over him until the very end of the D proceedings. They are now D'd and, while not living together (she has the two girls with the oldest away at college) W's bff and AP live in the same neighborhood and are actively a couple. W's bff's role in my W's A is debatable. W says she is a "big girl" and that she didn't do anything she didn't want to do and that bff did not encourage her and even discouraged her from having the A. I have/had some evidence that her bff was not actively encouraging the A and was at least urging W to consider the ramifications but, OTOH, it is clear that in several ways bff was at least complicit-- most egregious example was calling my W from OM's bar, with OM and friends in background, and urging her to come join them (though W does not know i know this.)

Current sitch: W still keeps in touch frequently with bff, though she honored my boundaries i established WRT seeing bff for "girl's weekends:" and such. Now, W tells me bff has invited us down to visit (they live in a beach town.) I have my own thoughts on this but want to hear others. This is a couple where the man, a fraternity brother and at least nominal friend of mine previously, solicited and had an affair with the W of a mutual friend who is my own best friend. And on top of that was a jerk about it. The woman, my W's bff, is a serial cheater and likely participated in and enabled my own W's waywardness and affair. My W is determined to remain friends with this person. My own friend, fwiw, says he doesn't mind if i socialize them.

I am not worried about my W becoming wayward again, and i am reluctant to "condemn" anyone, but even my own religious faith is of the bent that you can "love" other people but you don't necessarily need to let everyone get "close" to you, particularly if they are bad influences. It seems to be a matter of principle.

Do i agree to go? Tell her hell no? Bring it up in MC session?

[SteveLW]

In deference to your BFF, no matter what he says, no way would I go! And I would think your W would be supportive of that stance.

[ovrrnbw]

Hoosjim,

you go and do that if you really enjoy drama and emotional stress. W's bff is a major source of conflict. W's bff's AP/BF is a POS. He taunted your friend about the affair. I don't know how your friend didn't get in a fight right there. I couldn't forgive that (not that these scumbags are asking for forgiveness).

[neffer]

Just put yourself in your friend’s shoes HJ...there’s no need to pull that rope...

Also is respecting a boundary about W’s BFF. W should get that, right?