Separated after 9y and W says it is the end. Help!

[lcause]

I agree with you that the motivation has to stem from the inner core and not from hoping that this will bring about recon. Then what you're doing is basically engaging in a performance and not making the serious lasting changes.

I think that AS talks about this from his anecdotal experience that almost all WAS/WW have attempted recon at some point. This doesn't mean that it will happen or the LBS is willing to do it. You're right about not dwelling on it or thinking that it's a sure thing with enough time given.

I can say that in my case, I am fairly certain that my W will regret her decision. But, will that regret turn to remorse and wanting to recon, I really doubt that. If she does approach me with remorse, that will be the first indication to me that she's gone through some personal growth because she is terrified of hard conversations and communicating things, and has a high level of anxiety. But, to be honest, I don't see that happening because W has projected all the negative stuff outwards towards me and hasn't reflected too much on what she did in the MR that brought us here.

The only real route, as you've noted, is that you have to better yourself and understand yourself deeply. That is the one gift that I have received from this for sure.

I hope I didn't come out as too negative. I just don't really believe in many things said over here. For example it being a script - sure, what happens seems to follow a certain pattern but we are all so different and we tell a different story when asked. To me, these sometimes feel like things that are said to make us feel good, but it just prevents us from seeing the reality - it doesn't matter how it happens and why it happens. It happened and now you just have to focus solely on yourself and learn from your mistakes (if you had any). Just as the reconciliation - it will happen if it happens. You have to save yourself in order to even have a shot in reconciliation.

I don't believe that my XW has any regrets ever. Maybe guilt, maybe something like "I could have probably made it work" if OM doesn't end up being the one in a million "happily ever after" story, just same sh1t in another wrapping. However, it's rather useless to speculate that as like you said, they would have to go through a similar journey as we do in order to find themselves and gain the growth we here are after. If they don't, why would you want to be with someone who stood stuck and never developed?

It is said that we are given the gift - the gift of time. In my personal opinion and closely to what you said, the greatest gift we are given is the enlightenment. If we choose to see it, it gives us the willingness to seek for guidance to gain the growth, relationship (or in general, life-) skills and keys to build our own happiness; it frees us from believing that happiness comes from outside. I think knowing these things are really rare in today's world. Of course, it is a shame that it all has to happen this way for a lot of us. But, nevertheless, I'd rather learn from my mistakes and build a new future than to stay in a stale relationship where I did not know these skills.

[lcause]

Yeah. It is difficult to maintain the pace, when you see no finish line.

It is hard as h$ll but try to think about the finish line being for you and not restoring your MR.

The point is to find the enjoyment in the process, not in getting over the finish line. Think it this way... what is the finish line? You getting your S back? I'd encourage you to read some reconciliation threads. It is hard has heck. Getting it all done and happily in M again? Are you sure that when you get there, you can just be? Marriage is work. It's hard work. Any other goals in your life? Think about it.

My point is that there is no finish line - the finish line is when you are at your death bed taking your final grasp of air before your heart stops beating. There are only individual steps that create the entire journey - small steps that have easily defined outcomes. Reach for those steps. Break them down as much as you need to. Stop believing in finish lines and start to enjoy the journey. Life has a lot in store for you but no one is going to just give everything for you, you have to get it all yourself.

There are lots of ways to find your own happiness. I really find it comforting and it creates happiness for me that we humans are naturally learners - we are not from a mold. You just have to get your natural curiosity back. You will never know everything but you can continuously learn new things. Passions are created by experimenting, no one is born with a passion.

[Mav82]

Any ideas how to "counter" her 180s? She is showing on FB that she is interested in variety of concerts and other stuf she never was before. I have say it really hurts me.

You need to be proactive in helping yourself become independent of your W. You can't do it if you are following her on FB. It keeps you focused on what she is doing......instead of focusing on what you need to do.

This is true. I am trying not to keep an eye on her, but it still happens.

It hurts my heart to see someone in the emotional pain you are experiencing. I put my own H in that pain, and would you believe I was cold about it? It wasn't that my goal was set to hurt my H, but rather I saw it as part of the consequences of his neglect of me. Your W is not able to have compassion for you, b/c her head is on whatever makes her feel special at the moment.

I think she is, but then she immediately reminds herself of a great new adventure she is in (OM).

The harsh reality of this situation with a WW is that you don't make her feel the way she feels with this new man. It's not you....it's her. Her brain is flooded with chemicals that give her the feelings of falling of love. But, IMHO, it is not true love. It is built on her selfishness and emptiness. In other words, just about any man (except her H) could fit her needs at the moment, b/c that's all she is focused on......what makes her feel better.

Very much so. She confessed me the other day that the EA stared because the OM gave her what she was missing from me: attention and appraisal.

The reason you can't be that man at this particular time, is b/c of two reasons. (1) She blames you for her feeling neglected, lonely, emotionally empty, etc. (2) She has placed you in the friend zone, therefore, she has no desire/sexual love for you. That's not to say it can't change, but I assure you that it won't happen quickly.

Probably you are right. I think she wants me to have as a friend, to help her with kids and not to feel empty. I might be wrong, but she also get moments, when she is afraid of unknown, of me being away. otherwise I cannot explain why she is always depressed when I say I will leave the country.

It won't come about until a few things happen. First, this chemical high she's experiencing will need to fade. There's a good chance that if she loses attraction for the OM, she'll look for OM#2. It's b/c she wants to feel the "high" of being in love. Do you understand? It's as if she is a drug addict. You can't trust a drug addict when they are seeking their next fix. She's not in love, but she thinks she is. As soon as she begins seeing the OM#1's true colors or the reality of the situation, she will either look back at you or toward another man. It depends on timing, whether or not her rebellion is slacking off, if she's had to really face losing something precious to her, what she sees in you.

And again you are spot on Sindi. This is what I am afraid. I think she is actually looking to other "contenders" as well, and knowing her, and how she attracts men, it is not very hard for her. Deep inside me I am afraid, she will get used to be without me around and just find OM-x that will suite her needs for long enough to move on.

Secondly, you have to be a better version of yourself. No more signs of weakness, b/c this really is a huge turn off for the WW. No more co-dependent ways. Being emotionally independent of WW causes you to be a more interesting person. Did you realize it? When all you do is work, go home and collapse, maybe do something with the family on weekends......you begin to lose some of your male swagger.

Yes, the W wants her H to be a family man. Yes, she wants and needs one on one attention from her H. So, it's kind of a two edged sword. You would have to find balance in being involved in family activities, as well as GAL for yourself, and still find time to give your W one on one special attention.

Yep, that is me. I became a sort of couch potato.

Women can undertake multitasks more [i]naturally/i] than men, IMHO. Traditionally, men focused on providing for his family. Whereas, the women had to do the housework, laundry, shopping, cooking, running errands, taking care of the babies, seeing to the needs of her H and the other kids, etc. The modern H has learned to share in most of these duties, and he is proving he can learn to multitask, too. Families are so busy in their lives that it can become very challenging to balance everything. That's why you need to learn how to balance yourself without her, first. It will give you a better chance at succeeding with her when you reconcile.

again, nothing to appose.

The newcomer LBH seems to have trouble in balancing some of the advice he receives on the board. Perhaps it's due to his emotional frame of mind, IDK. You are receiving solid advice, Mav. You may feel you can do nothing right for a while, but everyone feels this way in the beginning. Right here on this board, I have seen so many men make a fantastic improvement in their lives. Sadly, there have been a few that refused to "try" and just get out of the house and find something to do. They were so co-dependent that they mistakenly took those feelings to be love. They could not balance what we were telling them about GAL, becoming a better man, etc. Those men would give up and leave the board, without us ever knowing their outcome. However, we could only imagine their sad and lonely existence. I hope you won't give up, Mav. There have people who were M for 25 or more years, who learn how to regain their lives and are actually very happy.

We are not promoting divorce, although it may sound that way to your ears at times. We are trying to tell you how to save yourself before you can save anything else. This is your personal work to do, while the WW is going through her stuff. You have to separate your life from hers and find yourself again. She fell in love with the man you were 9 years ago. Although your situation may be different now, can you find the man you once were? If not, can you become a better version of what you are now? You sound like a wonderful person, but you've lost a part of you that made you special. Go find that guy!

I have to work on me to become the man I was. The biggest reason I stuck, was/is the lack of social circle here in our town. I need to work on my social skills definitely.

Let me share something personal. I understand depression. I have lived with it most of my adult life. It is very difficult to be motivated while depressed. I am the type of person who has to find something that makes me feel fulfilled or rewarded. I don't mean in a self centered fashion, but just a fulfilled purpose within my being. I have learned that I am capable of doing things I never dreamed I could do. But I have to stay motivated. If I get bored with a hobby or activity, or I can't find enjoyment....then I have to find something else......or the depression gets worse. I need something that challenges me, without beating me up. I can't sit in front of a TV all day, every day.....without the depression getting worse. I have to have variety of things to do in my life. When I get "burnout", I am done! I am a Gemini so I have two personalities, or two sides.....bubbly, friendly, and funny...or quiet, withdrawn and moody. I have a social side but when I cut myself off from people, I take on attributes of a hermit, and become more depressed and I don't want to get out of my house for anything. It is constantly a work in progress for me. I have not been the easiest person to live with, and I take responsibility for it.....by doing what I need to do to stay balanced in my life. And this key, Mav.....if I sit and wait on motivation, it doesn't come. It's like fishing. If you won't get off your a$$ to bait the hook, the fish are not going coming to you.

Interesting insight.

The WW has a lot of work to do on herself and on her MR, but her timing and her work are on a different time table than yours. You won't see any work in her for some period of time. How much time, IDK. It varies from woman to woman. But she has to get the OM out of her head, or acting like Girls Gone Wild....whatever rebellious actions she's currently doing. In the meantime, you focus on yourself and the kids. You set goals that will improve your life. You meet new people, discover new interests, and challenge yourself. By the time your WW learns that she's truly lost you in her life.....you will be ready to respond in an attractive, manly manner. Some men lose another chance, b/c they aren't emotionally ready and don't interact with the WW in the way that works. That's what we want you to learn.

You know I am not sure my W is WW. I think she has characteristics of both WAW and WW. On one hand I very much pushed her in the direction of considering Divorce, on the other, I am sure she would never pull the trigger with having the EA.

yesterday I was with the kids home, and when she came back, we had some food together and had a discussion. I told her, I want them to stay home, and that she will pay me some rent, and it will be her home. I told her, that I do that for the kids and because I understood, that I do not want hurt her and most importantly kids to suffer more than they will. They feel good in that home. I also reassured, that I will most probably leave the country as I need to move forward with my life and I do not see that happening where I am now. I came here for her, and I was happy with that. Now, as she decided to move forward without me, I need to address my needs and move with my life forward as she did. I was very calm, did not try to make her change the mind or blackmail her. On the contrary I showed that after our previous conversation I realize it's over with our M.

Her mood went down, when I was telling about me leaving the country. She even said, why I cannot just go to Berlin, where I have some friends including female, that I have once flirted with online, and she saw that conversation and made a fuss out of it.

It is indeed true, that when I show no emotions and am calmly moving forward, she probably does not feel great about it. I do not want to "read" why she is behaves that way. Probably because she feel she loses control over me.

In any case I feel myself much better today.

[LH19]

I told her, I want them to stay home, and that she will pay me some rent, and it will be her home. I told her, that I do that for the kids and because I understood, that I do not want hurt her and most importantly kids to suffer more than they will. They feel good in that home. I also reassured, that I will most probably leave the country as I need to move forward with my life and I do not see that happening where I am now. I came here for her, and I was happy with that. Now, as she decided to move forward without me, I need to address my needs and move with my life forward as she did. I was very calm, did not try to make her change the mind or blackmail her. On the contrary I showed that after our previous conversation I realize it's over with our M.

Come on man! I call BS! It may not be black mail but you are being passive aggressive and trying to guilt her into staying. Do you remember how it worked out for you when you threatened her with a divorce?

Listen Mav. You only want your W to stay in the marriage if she chooses to stay on her own. Not because you threatened to leave the country.

If you do leave the country and leave those young beautiful kids behind, you are no better a person then she is right now. Those kids didn't nothing to cause this a now their father is going to move away?

You are very early in the process, stop the relationship conversations and stop looking any farther then getting through today.

Print out Sandi's rules and read them 5 times everyday.

I'm not gonna sugar coat it this is probably the fuching hardest thing you will ever do in your life! You will get through it and be happy again if you do the hard work necessary.

[Mav82]

Come on man! I call BS! It may not be black mail but you are being passive aggressive and trying to guilt her into staying. Do you remember how it worked out for you when you threatened her with a divorce?

Pardon me, but why am I blackmailing her? I ASK her to stay in our home with kids and be happy.

Listen Mav. You only want your W to stay in the marriage if she chooses to stay on her own. Not because you threatened to leave the country.

If you do leave the country and leave those young beautiful kids behind, you are no better a person then she is right now. Those kids didn't nothing to cause this a now their father is going to move away?

This bothers me a lot, but I KNOW I cannot be a healthy man or father being around now.
She, as I have mentioned before, has a huge social network she can fill-in her day with and find Male admirers. For me it will be struggle.

Appart from that I do not plan to leave the country and forget about the kids, first it will be coupe of months absence to give ME the space. I will still be working for the same company and will secure my position here in Germany.

You are very early in the process, stop the relationship conversations and stop looking any farther then getting through today.

Print out Sandi's rules and read them 5 times everyday.

I'm not gonna sugar coat it this is probably the fuching hardest thing you will ever do in your life! You will get through it and be happy again if you do the hard work necessary.

Yes, that is what I strive for now. For my happiness. I cannot be happy if I see her with OM around other people I know in couple of months. I need to detach, as it is very much advised here, and taking on a new challenge in US will be a great opportunity to do so and meet new people.

Don't you think?

[LH19]

Yes, that is what I strive for now. For my happiness. I cannot be happy if I see her with OM around other people I know in couple of months. I need to detach, as it is very much advised here, and taking on a new challenge in US will be a great opportunity to do so and meet new people.

Do you see how this post is all about you? Your happiness. How you'll feel when you see your W with other M. You need to detach. Great opportunity for you to meet new people.

How will your kids feel? Put your kids first Mav82. You have been here for 12 days. Relax take a deep breath and stop making such life altering decisions so soon.

Also, stop trying to blow smoke up my a$$.

[sandi2]

I just don't really believe in many things said over here. For example it being a script - sure, what happens seems to follow a certain pattern but we are all so different and we tell a different story when asked.

For me, the point behind telling a newcomer that his WW is following script, is b/c most new arrivals believe they have a unique situation and are panicking over every word or action. WW's actually do say and a lot of similar things throughout the whole ordeal. Of course, they have different stories and are different individuals, but this is why it is so obvious, to me, to see this commonality in WW's.

To me, these sometimes feel like things that are said to make us feel good, but it just prevents us from seeing the reality

I can't speak for others, but I don't tell people that their WW is following script to make them feel better. I'm not trying to make them feel worse, either. I am trying to enlighten them in how a WW operates.

As for the reality part.....I have been accused of being too negative, or crashing all their hope, or being pro divorce, or too harsh, on & on. I am a realist by nature. I wish I had the talent of Vanilla and some of the others, who speak sweet, comforting words of encouragement. Even when they use a 2x4, it is in a graceful, caring manner.

I use to be the first or second person to jump into a newcomer's thread. I thought if I could tell a LBH what he's dealing with in his W, maybe he could bypass some of the stuff others experienced. But guess what? Most were just not ready to hear what I had to say. They rejected it. It's too harsh and they don't want to hear it. They are here looking for hope, and don't want to face reality. Maybe that's why it's a challenge for people like you and I. I remember one poster who suddenly turned on the board, cursing us out for giving him false hope. Sometimes, you just feel like you can't win either way you go.

It is said that we are given the gift - the gift of time. In my personal opinion and closely to what you said, the greatest gift we are given is the enlightenment. If we choose to see it, it gives us the willingness to seek for guidance to gain the growth, relationship (or in general, life-) skills and keys to build our own happiness; it frees us from believing that happiness comes from outside. I think knowing these things are really rare in today's world.

I agree!

[petri]

I just don't really believe in many things said over here. For example it being a script - sure, what happens seems to follow a certain pattern but we are all so different and we tell a different story when asked.

I haven't been on this forum for a long time but, what I've learned in a matter of weeks, there is a script. You may call it a pattern but it's basically the exact same thing as a script. I thought my sitch was unusual or different. It wasn't. It was the exact same as most ones. Of course there are nuances to each story but the basic SCRIPT is the same.

[sandi2]

How are you doing, Mav?

[sandi2]

I hope you haven't decided to leave us. Maybe you are doing a lot of reading. Let us hear something soon.