25yearsMLC 10 Later I FILE D part 7

[joejoe1]

25,

Your testimonies are saving grace. These are the questions most need answered. Thanks for all the information, even thou it might hurt to pist.

You are a blessing.

[joejoe1]

I meant post not pist. And it auto corrects on this post. Uhhhhhggggg.

[Lovelyp]

What does Security mean to me and what did I miss in my m?


For ME, it means reliability and I can count on you. I did not see how much that was missing in my marriage, until recently. H never took a day off for our kids being sick and I had to pretty much care for the 2nd and 3rd child from day one, b/c h was a DOCTOR...and picked me up after the birth of our second child late, so I had been discharged for 7 hours and starving in an empty room the nurses gave me. He was at a different hospital and I could have had my parents pick me up! H never said he'd come at dinner time. Ugh, hurts just remembering.


yes, Security also means financial solvency - I don't want to be used for wealth anymore than a man does. But I don't want to worry about money the rest of my life, either.

*A man being a "good provider" meant a roof over my head, utilities on and food on the table, at a minimum. And It seemed more applicable & valuable when I had children, and at some biological level (which I would never tell my feminist friends about )

I did want to know that the basics were being met, and that h was working hard,

I agree that financial sovency and reliability are important attributes in a H. I would want those too at the minimum.

while I did the bulk of the nurturing. I needed to know he'd investigate scary noises in the basement - but I'd back him up! I valued that he was physically strong too. Like he can open the pickle jar, you know?

For me my H did the nurturing too but he was not strong both physically and mentally. I hate the fact that he ran away from me when I was delivering his child. He was the only family there and I really needed him to be there with me to make sure I will be OK.

And I think it was a division of labor we both just had.

Later on, he resented that d20 was "so needy" (and so hurt/angry at his prolonged absences) and he'd prefer to have changed the arrangement.

naturally He wanted to be totally welcome at home and never made to feel awkward, even if he created the alienation he resented by being gone SO MUCH.

I did my best to paint over all that, and in retrospect It's a regret I'll have to let go of.

I think you should forgive yourself. It is normal to want to paint a good picture so that the kids will not hate him. Sometimes it is ggenuine work pressure since he has to provide for the family. I feel though some H take advantage of the fact that the wife covers up their absence and abuse that by doing other non work activities.


I wish he knew that a parent's job is to assure the child of being loved, and to show up and to keep showing up, even when it's really hard.

of course, as for H's actual thoughts/feelings on these^^ matters, I don't know for sure, as he never, ever told me. Not once.

Back to the question of fidelity if we are in a committed r. (Otherwise it's just a lie, right?)

I see loyalty as a subset of fidelity- regardless of having a committed r or not.

That means No behind my back criticisms - especially of things he never shares with me, no disclosing private matters of mine/ours,

and he has to stand up for me even when the other person is "important". This is vital. A deal breaker if absent.

ANECDOTE as to why I feel this^^ way...

*H's mother was a religious bigot, which I did not know until our son was being baptized. H never said a word to her in my defense. But it's worse...

Turns out, when we got married, he had promised her we'd raise them in HER church.

(Uh, no, I had no idea such a promise was made.)


So while I thought she was a bigot at baptismal time, as she refused to go, she thought I had broken an important promise. Wow.

All b/c h was "conflict avoidant" when we were getting married. He never said a word to me or her.

And I only learned of this ^^ in passing after she died. He shrugged that she and I were not "that close b/c [he] promised her we'd raise the kids in her religion."

Like this^^ was not a huge bomb..."wait, WTF? You promised her what?"


So he ruined the r between his mom and me, and that affected the r's she had with our kids, which was pretty non existent. They have almost no recall of interacting with her.

Thats not nice.

Just so I get this off my chest, for the record,

I WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE WITH OUR CHILDREN GOING TO HER CHURCH

AND BEING BAPTIZED IN IT! I'd have done both churches. No big deal.

See the supreme irony?

And I'm pretty confident h learned nothing from that.

In fact, if I brought it up as some form of teaching point, he'd stare at me like I "can't move on".

and my s31 would say "mom, dad cannot learn a teaching point from you, or from his mistakes."

And s31 would be right.

But I digress...

[25yearsmlc]

thanks very much guys

hey I wanted to add on to a few things I need in a man, or believe in, so I'll have written it down somewhere.

Security - also means having a partner who won't lose their $h1t. No tantrums (or "lost my temper" episodes.)

It's too unsettling to have the man who is supposed to protect me, seem out of control.

When h lost his temper it was kind of traumatic to everyone. Looking back, and discussing it with my T, I discussed not seeing anger expressed in a healthy way in my childhood. I'm sure h can say the same thing.

But h's expressions were often just tantrums and actually verbally abusive. Hard to write that out. ugh


and the loyalty piece of fidelity

also means not fighting in front of others. No snide remarks. No snipes or public criticisms which are so magnified when there is an audience. You could complain to your partner about something in private, and it could lead to a disagreement.

Add in an audience and it's a freaking wound that takes a long time to heal, if it ever does.

I think John Gottman did research that shows couples who show contempt for their spouses are far more likely to divorce, than other couples.


H did this snarky remark thing in front of our kids, in the last 2 years of our m. OMG it ate at me. My putting up with it made it worse, actually. My staying quiet to keep the peace actually led to less peace. Less respect, I think.

Ironic.

Oh and I want a man who won't restrain himself from hard laughter! If I make him laugh, all the better.

[Lovelyp]

thanks very much guys

hey I wanted to add on to a few things I need in a man, or believe in, so I'll have written it down somewhere.

Security - also means having a partner who won't lose their $h1t. No tantrums (or "lost my temper" episodes.)

It's too unsettling to have the man who is supposed to protect me, seem out of control.

When h lost his temper it was kind of traumatic to everyone. Looking back, and discussing it with my T, I discussed not seeing anger expressed in a healthy way in my childhood. I'm sure h can say the same thing.

But h's expressions were often just tantrums and actually verbally abusive. Hard to write that out. ugh

Unfortunately I can relate to this. H used to do exactly the same and still does. He doesnt know how to deal with emotions. I like how John Gottman said that it is lack of emotional inteligence that make people behave that way. I feel this is major problem we had. It was either avoidance of conflict, stonewalling or verbal abuse. For me that behaviour turned me off completely.


and the loyalty piece of fidelity

also means not fighting in front of others. No snide remarks. No snipes or public criticisms which are so magnified when there is an audience. You could complain to your partner about something in private, and it could lead to a disagreement.

Add in an audience and it's a freaking wound that takes a long time to heal, if it ever does.

I think John Gottman did research that shows couples who show contempt for their spouses are far more likely to divorce, than other couples.

Sadly I did exactly that. H used to hurt me so much in private and around his friends he behaved like we were so happy. I regreted but it was too late.

H did this snarky remark thing in front of our kids, in the last 2 years of our m. OMG it ate at me. My putting up with it made it worse, actually. My staying quiet to keep the peace actually led to less peace. Less respect, I think.

Ironic.

Oh and I want a man who won't restrain himself from hard laughter! If I make him laugh, all the better.

Thats very important.

[Accuray]

I kind of want the discussion early enough so I don't invest much in a man who lacks self awareness.

(Great discussion by the way!) The divorce narrative he shares with you is only one aspect of self-awareness right? He could have learned to "say the right things" but not really live in a self-aware manner. You will figure out pretty quickly how self-aware people are regardless of what they tell you about their divorce. Like in DB, what they do is much more important than what they say.

Regarding your question about who pays, personally I just expect to pay all the time. I appreciate if the woman offers to pay now and again, and also appreciate it if she insists on it once in a while. Obviously there's some art to the whole thing because if it becomes an awkward argument that's the worst possible outcome. My guidance would be to offer once in a while and insist on it sometimes.

I like the information about the survey that you shared -- looking back at my first marriage my exW definitely had security and fidelity, and I had the attractiveness and peace at home, so on the face of it our needs were being met according to the survey, but that didn't work out so well in the end!

I *really* value peace in the household, but on the other hand I also appreciate that if you let resentments build up you're poisoning your relationship like cancer, so conflict is a necessity for a successful marriage.

Like anything else, however, its all on a spectrum. I dated a woman who had a tantrum that I didn't respond to an email she sent where I was one of 100 people on copy. She felt that as her relationship partner, I owed her an obligation to send a supportive and affirming reply. That violates my boundary for "peace in the household" as I don't feel that's a reasonable expectation. If she e-mailed me something important directly and I ignored it, then yes take me to task. If I'm on a huge distribution list and it's not relevant to me or us? Then yes it's nice if I respond, but I don't feel I owe it to her.

That's what's tricky about these notions of security, peace, attractiveness, it comes down to what's reasonable and rational, and everyone has a slightly (or dramatically) different take on that. That's why relationships are hard!

Acc

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=25]I kind of want the discussion early enough so I don't invest much in a man who lacks self awareness.

(Great discussion by the way!) The divorce narrative he shares with you is only one aspect of self-awareness right? He could have learned to "say the right things" but not really live in a self-aware manner. You will figure out pretty quickly how self-aware people are regardless of what they tell you about their divorce. Like in DB, what they do is much more important than what they say.

yes^^^ to all this. I'll be sensitive to it.

And i'll watch for how connected a man is to his kids. A dear friend of mine is in a long term committed relationship (she'd lose health insurance if they marry, so I think that's the reason they are not m). Anyhow, Her "h" is not close to his FIVE ADULT sons.
He seems to be blaming his ex wife.

Who can blame an ex, if you are not close to any of your adult sons? Oh, he can.
I guess she "brainwashed" all of her adult sons with lies...oh, and they must all have amnesia about how he treated her or them,

and oh, I guess he can't keep reaching but b/c, you know, they might not react well.

I believe with all my heart that if my kids rejected me and even if they said they did not want to hear from me again,

that I'd keep showing up and I'd keep reaching out. Even if just by email, I'd sent a diary entry if need be.

So that if anything happened to me, they'd still know I cared for them and missed them.
It's her life, I know. But that's a red flag to me, big time.


Regarding your question about who pays, personally I just expect to pay all the time.


oh good!


I appreciate if the woman offers to pay now and again, and also appreciate it if she insists on it once in a while. Obviously there's some art to the whole thing because if it becomes an awkward argument that's the worst possible outcome. My guidance would be to offer once in a while and insist on it sometimes.

OMG that ^^won't happen. I'd offer often, and if he seems offended OR if he pushes back insisting, I'd back off.

On his birthday or something I personally wanted to do, the insistence would rise, but again, if it seems important to HIM, I'd back off.

Not a sword I'd fall on.

Maybe I'm not liberated enough. Oh, FTR, if there's a disparity in our income and I'm the bigger earner, I'd calibrate the dates.

I don't want a guy going broke for my activity choices.




I like the information about the survey that you shared -- looking back at my first marriage my exW definitely had security and fidelity, and I had the attractiveness and peace at home, so on the face of it our needs were being met according to the survey, but that didn't work out so well in the end!

meaning, you both seemed to fit the bill? Maybe security meant something different for her

or maybe she did not fit the survey and she needed more "drama"??

BTW

some friends of mine mentioned the "no drama" comment some single men make. As in, they don't want drama in a r...

My friends were mocking it and are turned off by the comment.

Here are some of their remarks in response to the "no drama wanted" in an online profile of a guy who is seeking his "special lady".


"what woman says she 'wants drama'? AND WTH does 'not seeking drama' mean anyhow? Probably means 'no emotional needs allowed'?

"It probably means he 'really likes the couch'..."

I *really* value peace in the household, but on the other hand I also appreciate that if you let resentments build up you're poisoning your relationship like cancer, so conflict is a necessity for a successful marriage.


yes this^^ is so essential. No M success without it.

So the real question we'd explore (eventually) is "how do you resolve conflict?"


Like anything else, however, its all on a spectrum. I dated a woman who had a tantrum that I didn't respond to an email she sent where I was one of 100 people on copy. She felt that as her relationship partner, I owed her an obligation to send a supportive and affirming reply.

is it okay if this^^ made me laugh?

Also, run away from her and don't look back.

[kml]

BTW

some friends of mine mentioned the "no drama" comment some single men make. As in, they don't want drama in a r...

My friends were mocking it and are turned off by the comment.

Here are some of their remarks in response to the "no drama wanted" in an online profile of a guy who is seeking his "special lady".


"what woman says she 'wants drama'? AND WTH does 'not seeking drama' mean anyhow? Probably means 'no emotional needs allowed'?

"It probably means he 'really likes the couch'..."

Wow - probably means those women are drama queens! I TOTALLY get it when a guy says no drama. In fact I kinda feel sorry for men that date women, because I know they put up with a lot of crazy drama. In fact, when I dated those few guys who were way too young for me, one of the things that they appreciated about an older woman was that young women were so freakin' full of unnecessary drama!

[25yearsmlc]

explain to me what it means, KML.

Because G says things like that along with "at our age..."

and I swear the guy wants to coast to the finish line. His parents died young, mine didn't.

And when HE says it, I find myself thinking he wants boring.

I'm not a drama queen. H provided so much chronic chaos in our life, how could I be?

There has to be at least one sane parent. That was me.

But I want passion. I know it's not likely to be what I felt at age 20, but is it too much to want some?

I'm not sure I agree about the drama queen parts b/c the women who made the remarks are calm, healthy professional women.

They were the sane parents raising their kids. One of them has an ex who is alcoholic and HE says he wants "no drama".

And he does like the couch...and the bottle

[25yearsmlc]

had another really rough night. that's 3 in a row. I am WIPED OUT.

Woke up angry at h. Now, look, I totally get why I'd have trouble falling asleep with the divorce hearing coming up for trial setting

but I mean, I'm awakening in anger or panic. I'm walking my dog and BAM, my heart races and pounds and I get light headed but it feels like a panic attack.

WTF? Lots of potential explanations but meanwhile, I need to sleep better, more now than ever. It is a real health issue for me

Soonest I can see a shrink with my insurance is, literally a month from now. Seriously?

Or show up at the ER (uh, no thanks. Job hunt going on at the moment and don't want that experience).

SO i went to see an out of plan guy,=/ and paid a fortune in cash (KML, that made me more suspicious later as I pondered the lack of paperwork. Interesting.
[hey "Dear Doc, Don't tell the IRS"...?)

Got some anti anxiety stuff and ADs. At least if it's private pay, I don't have to write it all out for h to see, (in case)

and no, I cannot explain why I give a damn if he knows, but I do.

This^^ is part of the problem. I am not sure why I can't break this cycle, so I decided at 5am this morning that I had to see someone to help me snap out of it.

Of note, It's almost only the nights that are getting to me (yep, lowering that cognitive guard, harder to find distractions that won't wake me up, etc)

I used the mediation apps and they usually help a lot, but the last few days, nope.

Elle, it's of interest to me that it happens even though I'm cognitively aware that it's a cheeseless tunnel with a sharp painful side.

it's like there's a brain loop - and either the loop creates the negative thought patterns'

or the patterns create the loop.

Add in lack of sleep and side effects of previous meds/issues, and whatever else is happening, (like my life being up in the air)

and it's not a good recipe for my health. The neuro guy said that 10% of the population will have a single seizure in their life and more than half of those people will have pulled an all nighter the previous 48 hours.

We NEED sleep and can literally die of not getting enough

I'll let you know the results of the new meds. And yeah I told the guy about the medical history.

If I had not had a neuro issue last year, I'd probably have gotten on these months ago.

I thought I was doing well but sometimes seizures or middle of the night awakenings or
what seem to be weird panic attacks, remind me that at some levels, I'm still in a sh1tstorm. I don't have the money to hire a PI, I mean that, literally.

And we need to settle SOON but I have that sick feeling I'll be ripped off. So I need the meds to focus and do this GDC to the end...

And remind myself that this too, shall pass.

thanks for listening. It's good to journal.