180man Thread 4

[180Man]

Just a little update from my corner of the world. Turned my facebook back on again this past week. I didn't miss it at all, but I felt like it was time and I figured JAG would, like most women my age, try looking me up to see how much of a serial killer I am. Hope I didn't disappoint.

I asked JAG to coffee again at the beginning of last week, we had a really nice time just sitting and talking. I tried hard to avoid interrupting her and be a good listener -- I feel I have a tendency to ask people questions in the middle of their stories and sometimes it's probably irritating.

Shortly thereafter, I allowed my friends to peer pressure me into asking her to go bowling with me. I was going to do this anyways, but they pushed me to do it shortly after our coffee thing. I did not take time to actually think ahead about the words that should come out of my mouth. It was a little clumsy and awkward and I don't think she was really prepared or expecting me to just come out and ask her on a date. Normally I would ask a girl to dinner, but I felt like bowling was a good half-step between coffee and dinner and gave me deniability were not received well -- "hey, it's not a date, it's just bowling!" -- but she's a smart cookie, she knows what's going on.

So, we're supposed to go next week. I admit, I am really excited -- probably too excited -- but I am trying hard to take it slow and I'm not interested in bugging her. She friended me on fb yesterday and we exchanged phone numbers and texted for a few minutes. I think yesterday was the happiest I've been in six or eight months. Not to imply I haven't been happy lately -- I have actually been really good this past month or so and it has only been getting better. I feel like I'm in a good place, emotionally, spiritually, physically -- I've leaned out a ton and bulked up a little since I started going to the gym months ago. I'm still going to my men's church group and I'm actually going to start surfing with some of those guys. Work is good and I'm appreciated. We had a fund raiser yesterday for our command and I got to pie my boss in the face. JAG was in the front row and seemed to be enjoying the situation and took pictures. We really did a number on him, he told me later he had pie in his ears still. Hahah!

My old drummer was in town yesterday and today, we went out and hung out and also got to play some music together. I told him what has been going on in my life and he confided in me that he is having terrible issues in his relationship too and he doesn't know what to do about it. His wife has tried to kill herself three times in the last year and a half, she abuses alcohol, she picks fights with him all the time, and she has a real jealously problem -- she was in the hospital for three days last week on account of this. I feel really bad for him and I hope she gets some help. But I told him she needs to find her own happiness before she can be happy with anyone else, just like my wife. I hope they figure it out.

As for my W, not much is new. I need to meet with my lawyer this week and do some paperwork. I told my wife I'd like to come to an agreeable settlement, so we'll see what happens. I just want it to be a thing of the past at this point.

Hope everyone is doing well!

[LITB]

180,

Glad to see your update on the progress that you are making. Looking back, I'm sure you thought the peace that you are currently feeling was unattainable in the early stages. Just goes to show that GAL and your efforts in self growth are paying dividends.

One thing you mentioned, is that you are trying not to interrupt in the middle of a conversation. I once heard a Pastor say, "We have 2 ears and 1 mouth to listen twice as much as we talk."

It drives me nuts when someone interrupts. It dismisses what the person speaking is trying to convey. Kudos to you for identifying that issue. Now that you are cognizant of it, you can pay special attention how you interact and the other person responds. It is a big deal when it comes to your communication skills.

When you are not completely clear what the other person is telling you, ask them a follow up question. Like, "You said_________. This is what I understand___________. Is that correct?" It demonstrates that you are listening and it is important to you in what they are saying.

You are doing good 180. Keep on keeping on.

[Jim1234]

Kudos 180. Glad to hear you're doing well.

[180Man]

"We have 2 ears and 1 mouth to listen twice as much as we talk."

Oooh, I like that. I will have to remember that! Ty!

You are doing good 180. Keep on keeping on.

Kudos 180. Glad to hear you're doing well.

Thanks guys. I know for sure I am doing better and it's like night and day from six months ago....but sometimes I wonder if I actually know what I'm doing. It all seems well and good on the surface, but...are these the right things to be doing? Even coffee with this girl kind of feels wrong in the back of my mind. I'm guessing that's just a holdover from being married, but...I mean, when I read 25's posts about coffee I wonder if I am doing this too soon, too quick. My buddies who have been pushing me to date for months tell me stupid shít like "Don't fall in love" or "It's just a rebound." And I'm like...if I was going to rebound wouldn't that have happened in January? And why do I have to set arbitrary rules for myself? Can I not just enjoy her company and see what happens? I mean, she could be completely crazy once I actually get to know her...but she could also be the sweetest person I've ever known. I don't know yet.

So, I struggle with these thoughts from time to time. I suppose one of the lessons I've learned during all of this is that there is no checklist for life, as much as my mind wants one. Most of the time nobody can tell you with absolute certainty that one path or another is wrong or right. So we stumble around in the dark trying to feel our way to the light switch and hope we run into as little as possible on the way there. I guess that feeling of wandering around in the dark is what I'm describing in the paragraph above. It sùcks sometimes but I know that damn switch is around here somewhere!

Perhaps this is appropriate for me right now:

"Those who seek learning gain every day
Those who seek the Way lose every day" -Lao-Tzu

Of course "the way" is its own complicated concept, but perhaps for me...right now...it can just mean my path. Maybe I need to focus less on wondering if I'm on the right path or not and focus more on learning and growing. But I think you all knew this already before I typed it...

[25yearsmlc]

180

2 things. On one hand, I notice whenever I discuss dating, coffee, or getting serious into a "r" either about my own situation or yours, you tend to make what I say far more exaggerated than what I actually said or meant. The written word can lack subtext but
I choose my words carefully and I hope accurately. So there is Nothing implied, or secretly meant or hinted at. I'm direct as you know. If you feel defensiveness rising, take a step back and don't read into things, just the words at face value okay?

Second, Let me play devils' advocate (or whatever the right term would be). Because I don't want to rain on your parade. I think if I say all this once, then I can stfu and then stand back and just say "cheers!"

First, What has changed in your situation that has made such a mark on your attitude?

I don't believe it's the GAL - b/c I have not heard a seismic change in how you are pushing your comfort zones far, or doing brand new activities or meeting lots of new people you'd never meet otherwise,

or making discoveries about yourself...

I think its the idea of replacing your w with a new woman.

"YOU HAVE WON A SHINY NEW CAR!! (so there's no need to learn how to change the oil & filter in the old car, let alone overhaul a transmission, or even know if that's what the pesky blinking red light meant.

It is justSO MUCH easier to just buy another car & start fresh!

(That's what WAS's do, btw)

Otherwise we have fix it or take some car repair classes--and maybe.... figure out something about what to do when that weird light starts to blink...but not now!


because That hurts and we must stop the hurt...


I read a great article I wish I could link to you. It's about why 2nd marriages fail more often than first. Accuracy says It might be partly b/c it's just easier to do than our first marriages, and there's some truth to that.

But in your next m (Not saying bowling is a 2nd m, I know)

but when you do remarry, I am guessing there will be kids & even more investment than the M that seems to be ending now...so care must be taken, right?

One factor that increases the chance of a 2nd m ending is The speed with which the person remarries after their first m ends. Takes time to learn from our mistakes and it takes time to heal. Seems simple...


I don't think you are healed by a long shot. I don't know how much you have changed either, but the fact that you are suddenly "So much better" is telling.

Seems like you want so much to bandage that sucking chest wound, not to mention soothe a badly damaged ego - WHICH I RELATE TO, to be fair... it concerns me for you.

You are young so you are without much R or heartbreak experience. You don't know how to heal on your own. Most of us don't.

I know dating again is going to be (mostly) good for my ego.

So I'm with you there.

BUT I managed a recon 10 years ago (which took almost 2 years and happened just before my internal deadline for limbo, would have ended).

Looking back, I think if we had pieced correctly, I Know I would not be here again.

But this^^ dating OPs made me realize something. I could see how your w and how my h could do what they did. NOT defending them, but seeing how they can avoid looking at the wreckage...which you and I both know is not healthy for them, let alone lovely for us.

In my situation, and not in defense of h at all, I now see how h could be so cruel and oblivious without apparent guilt. Not that I'd know...

In the Past decade he had a weird - unhealthy way of morphing shame into Blame. Amazing ability to deflect from his own wrongdoing even when it's not debatable.

He could not hold onto remorse or guilt, or do self reflection that didn't make him feel good, for long. He just hid from it or lashed out. And ta dah!!! Now he has OW!

No need for self reflections!! No need to "heal" when he can cover the scar, never mind what wounds he inflicted on others, no need to look!

There is a new "Comforting" image in his face to focus on, NOT his flaws, not his errors, not his first m...

A man who can leave a 35 year marriage (with a truly sick vulnerable wife - which, btw, I had never been before so it's not like I was an invalid dragging him down)

and with 3 children, shocked me. Your w seemed confused and then...done...?

Mind you, our history is filled with rags to riches story, numerous educational achievements and an amazing connection. We created a beautiful family.

H chose the most demanding of careers (a 2nd career to change into) which harmed his r's with the kids, of course, and that alienation HE created with so much time apart, bothered him and hurt our d's...

ALL THIS^^^ is nothing he needs to think of b/c he has OW. He can run to her and

She can soothe his wounded ego or heart

(I have to believe- he at least misses our kids) and I WANT to believe he misses ME and our conversation and my wit and brilliance, us enjoying sex, - even if it's all fireworks with OW now, it was once all fireworks with us, etc

but he has OW in his face telling him he's great. So what if he cut off our d19 from college? So what if he left me alone WHILE sick, so he could go on his adventure? So what if that looks appalling to those who know the truth?

He does not have to face the truth!
TODAY he need not look at the pain he inflicted on the 4 people who loved him the most OR on the pain he may ALMOST feel...

h is in a new exciting area, in a novel r with a OW who I presume "admires" him b/c I know for a fact h craves admiration (pretty much regardless of what h does) and there's no negative history - or good history but that's easy to hide from at this point-

whereas I'm in my old stomping grounds, where we lived when first married,

but thankfully also where my family and oldest friends are. Lots of reminders for me. Which I will change, in time.


Meanwhile, imo, You are in pain and there seems to be a detour from the painful path...you can run to that path, away from your pain. That exit path does not make it ALL unhealthy 180 -

but it makes me think the learning you were doing is going to be side railed or unlearned. And I'm not sure this is a "180"...

I more than relate to how much better I would feel, today, if I were dating. If anyone is used to being part of a married couple and mom, it's ME.

but
1) you are putting a bandaid on your pain

and it's not great news for the JAG. The rebound relationship bodes poorly for her, most of all.

Btw, It is interesting that you would choose to date another military woman,

Play it out.... (180, don't get defensive now and say "it's just bowling!". I know that. I'm asking you to think forward for a few minutes. Hence the phrase, "play it out".)

In the unlikely event you marry a JAG officer, then we know either one of you leaves the military & surrenders their career- like I did for my h - or you will face deployments & transfers again, and all the fears and doubts WILL COME UP for you

OKAY so right now,

again you are saying "Lighten up 25, it's just bowling! You are projecting"

And if I thought for 3 minutes that you'd be alright "just bowling" and not seeing this JAG for, say, over a month, and if you were honest with her about where you really are in this process and not reeking of need,

then I'd bow out and say "hey, enjoy yourself, you deserve some fun!" I mean, I hope that's ^^all true.

but your excitement level suggests otherwise.

2) I worry you are not staying on your growth path b/c now it's all about winning THIS woman, not about authentic work on yourself. I really hope you'll still go to EE this summer. Are you?

3) I want you to be happy. But in my timeline world, how many months has it been that you have been in a "personal growth - despite my pain" mode, in total?


How will You be different in another marriage to anyone, than before?

I'm not saying you will marry THIS woman. I get that!! NOR am I saying you must keep working on your m to reconcile. There are valid reasons Not to do so...

But play it out with the JAG, b/c if you don't marry her, which we assume is the case, then how will you handle a break up on her end? Are you ready for that?

Accuracy said the worst part of dating again was realizing HE would have to break up with people and hurt them. So there's that to consider too. We know how it feels to be on this end of it.
Given how the old you avoided painful discussions ("conflict") what would be different now?

BTW Yes I'm going to have coffee with a guy this week. I have known him for decades, though we'd lose touch for years at a time. He's not a brand new person in my life, b/c we actually dated 38 years ago, before I chose & married h. "G" and I have always had at least a friendship, and I never forgot that.

At a minimum we will still have a good friendship.

180 - I totally acknowledge the piece of this^^ that sure feels like healing.

It FEELS like GAL...

But it's also a bandage b/c I just want to stop the bleeding, too. So Yes I get it.

yet we know that seeing someone new, is Not really healing, is it?

Just be honest with what this is for you, it's an AID to healing our egos. That's fine.

But how can it be a lot else at this point?

We cannot heal without deep reflective very uncomfortable personal work.

Like a surgery we still have to do, even if there's a pressure bandage on the wound, there have to be some more cuts.

(Yes I do like my metaphors)


I am learning that I can stay on my own path and figure things out and NOT "need" a man in my life to be complete.

I am coming to believe This "single hood" is a crucial step in me self actualizing.

Learning to live on my own and liking it IS making sure I like myself, on my own.

This^^ seems mandatory.

What do you think?

[Jim1234]

I wonder if I am doing this too soon, too quick. My buddies who have been pushing me to date for months tell me stupid shít like "Don't fall in love" or "It's just a rebound." And I'm like...if I was going to rebound wouldn't that have happened in January? And why do I have to set arbitrary rules for myself? Can I not just enjoy her company and see what happens?

Only you can answer whether it's too soon.

Just FYI, I keep hearing voices in the back of my head saying basically, "what are you doing???? You're married! You shouldn't be with this woman!!!" so I decided I'm not really ready to date and have stepped back a bit.

Also, 25 has some pretty good words of wisdom.

[Georgiabelle]

180,

I'm sorry you find yourself here. Sometimes it's difficult to read the stories so I don't always chime in. Plus you've gotten lots of wisdom from 25, Sandi and Cadet. I'm not sure how much insight I have but.....

I live in the house my ex husband grew up in. Occasionally, it's strange. However with time I've realized it's a place I live. It's not who I am. I go on vacation with my ex in-laws. I hang out with my ex brother-in-law. I'm a little bit of an anomaly on these boards. My ex-husband has not spoken to his family barring to text in the last three years. His father is in declining health so I do hope that they are able to mend their relationship. I also have a cordial relationship with my x. He is texting me from his vacation as we speak. :-) My situation may not be the norm (whatever that) but ultimately I have tried to do what is right for me and my children. I wish my ex peace.

In regards to dating, I guess I'm perplexed why people are in such a hurry to date. I understand that people are lonely. And prior to my divorce the last time I was not in a relationship is when I was 20 years old. I can very honestly say that being by myself for two years before getting into another relationship is probably one of the wisest things I've ever done. And I'm extremely stubborn and strong-willed so that's saying a lot. I understand it's just bowling, however, people have a tendency to fast-forward particularly when they're looking for outside validation and to fill a void. I guess I just don't understand the rush. Ultimately, people will do what they think is best. However, it is extremely difficult to even casually date when one is in a lot of turmoil. And while it looks like you were doing many good things, you are clearly still in a great deal of pain. That it's completely understandable.

Be careful.

[LITB]

180,
I understand the points that 25 and Georgiabelle are conveying to you. I do have a different take on your sitch.

First, you don't have children and I'd venture to guess that neither does the JAG. IMO, not having children makes it easier to date. It is apparent that having her attention has boosted your confidence. Also, it shows you that a D is not the end all, be all.

Here is the main thing in regards to JAG. You have to be honest with yourself and with JAG. You have to be cognizant of your thoughts and feelings and you need to be forthcoming with her. I agree with 25 that you are not completely healed, however at what stage will you be ready? Sometimes trial and error.

Personally, I think we could argue that it is unfair to first person that we date coming out of this mess no matter the time. For most of us, this is possibly the most difficult thing we have experienced. It will undoubtedly affect us in some form or fashion.

Slow and smooth with eyes wide open.

[180Man]

Wow, thanks for the responses. Not sure where to start...

25, I completely understand the issue of text not always transferring the proper meaning, I was never upset or defensive or trying to pull out some secret meaning from what you were writing. I simply read what you write and you do a good job of making me think and self-evaluate. In this particular case, I was wondering earlier many, if not all, of the same things you wrote about above.

Is it just a distraction? Have I rushed into something, even if it isn't much of anything, too soon? Why have I decided to get to know another military woman? I don't want to hurt her or drag her into my crap, how do I avoid that? Have I stopped working on myself as much as I need to? How long is long enough to work on yourself? How long should I allow myself to wallow in pain over my wife? I have all of these questions and more.

I have answers for some of them. Decent ones, I think. Some of them I don't have answers to. In the end, I don't know if it matters if I have these answers or not. If I am enjoying life again, does it matter? I have done a lot of work on me. A lot. It may have only been since November that all of this crap happened, but I have been ALONE for over a year now. W has been gone a lot. I couldn't tell you the last time I had sex. Maybe last summer? But the connection, the relationship with another human...that's more important to me than sex. Sex can be had anywhere with anyone. Not to downplay its importance in a relationship or suggest I don't love it just as much as the next guy...but you only get to connect on a deep level in that way with so many people in life. I miss that.

So...why JAG? Well, I know I don't want to waste my time on a floozy. I know that it's important to me to be with someone who has life experience. Like...real life experience, having to deal with adult responsibilities. Having a real job. Not some girl who went to college because mom and dad forced her to and now she's lead sales associate at GAP. I mean, that works for some people. But I want a woman who has an opinion. I want a woman who will tell me when I've [censored] up. Someone who has a real career. I could go on. But I also find that I have quite a bit in common with JAG outside of the military stuff. And in our branch, she tells me that in her 20 years she'll be lucky to deploy once, maybe twice. Well, good news is she already got an 8 month deployment out of the way before we met. Other good news is I'm applying in the spring for a particular program that, were I accepted, I wouldn't deploy again for any significant amount of time (would be way easier to explain this stuff in person).

Not that I am anywhere near looking at long term with this girl. I'm not NOT looking at long term. If it goes anywhere, I don't have some artificial stop in place where I dump her. I'm not that type of person. And as attractive as she is, I don't see her as a "piece of ass." She's someone I want to get to know and I'm trying hard not to be in a rush to do it. I'm trying hard to be very deliberate and slow about it.

If I were never married and never had this terrible divorce experience, would I still be as excited about JAG as I have been? I think so. I felt the same way when I first started dating past girlfriends. I'm not good at playing it cool. I do put a lot of stock in my relationships. I am a romantic.

I don't need anyone in my life right now. Or ever, really. It's honestly a lot simpler. But wants and needs are two different things.

Maybe I'm just telling myself all of these things to self-justify. I don't know. I could sit here and do my normal routine of over-analyzing it all...I could sit here in self-pity and think about my wife. I could sit here and cry and miss her. But...maybe it's okay that I'm just happy, even if it's only for a little while. Even if it's only during a cup of coffee with a girl I don't really know. Does it matter if I assign a label to all of these problems and issues I have? Does it matter if I want one month for every year I've been married before dating or whatever? Will it make me feel better if I follow all of this arbitrary shít?

Or can it be enough that I'm actually happy for the time being? I struggle with these questions but I want to say yes. Yes, it's okay to be happy for a little while. Yes I had my faults in my marriage, but I have learned so much these past six or seven months. When will enough be enough?

My hope is now. My hope is that JAG texts me back and we solidify our bowling plans. My hope is that I can get to know her at a nice slow and steady pace. My hope is that I can just be myself with her and that we might keep each other company in the coming weeks or longer. I will always love my wife. Shít, I still have a love for old girlfriends. Not unhealthy love, just the kind that still cares that they are happy and find their way.

I feel I am past the worst of it. I am past the worst of the inner and outer turmoil. I am still signed up for that personal development workshop, by the way, but I feel okay right now. I wonder if I am ready to dig deep again like I have in recent months. It will be painful, I'm sure.



So, I guess the real question is....am I happy?

I am much happier than I was. Not that it could have gotten much worse, but there's always a way! Have I reached peak happiness? No. But I'm still self-aware and trying to be cognizant of my own personal growth.

[180Man]

180,
I understand the points that 25 and Georgiabelle are conveying to you. I do have a different take on your sitch.

First, you don't have children and I'd venture to guess that neither does the JAG. IMO, not having children makes it easier to date. It is apparent that having her attention has boosted your confidence. Also, it shows you that a D is not the end all, be all.

Here is the main thing in regards to JAG. You have to be honest with yourself and with JAG. You have to be cognizant of your thoughts and feelings and you need to be forthcoming with her. I agree with 25 that you are not completely healed, however at what stage will you be ready? Sometimes trial and error.

Personally, I think we could argue that it is unfair to first person that we date coming out of this mess no matter the time. For most of us, this is possibly the most difficult thing we have experienced. It will undoubtedly affect us in some form or fashion.

Slow and smooth with eyes wide open.

Thanks LITB. Yes, I understand what they are saying. I think I just rambled quite a bit trying to express that I also have the same fears, but in the end I come to the same conclusion as you.

I want nothing more than to be honest and straightforward with JAG. Will I dive deep into my past over bowling? No, not unless she asks. But if it goes any further, like a dinner date, she has the right to know what's going on with me so she can make her own decision about what to do (or not do, as the case may be). I'm not a complete idiot, I won't be telling her every last detail right away, but she needs to know the basics. I will be happy to answer any questions she has, but I am also aware that the last thing I want to do is entangle her in past emotions. That's not fair to her.

Thanks everyone, I needed to think, read, and hear what you guys are saying. I like it...smooth, slow, eyes wide open.