180man Thread 3

[180Man]

Hey DB,

You guys have been very helpful and I really appreciate the feedback, both good and bad, even when it seems I'm not receptive to it. Sometimes I just need time to process. That being said, my situation is complex (whose isn't?) and it's hard for me to put a lot of weight on advice when sometimes it seems people may not have read my background story. I can't blame anyone because there's a ton of reading and we can't keep up on every single thread here (or at least I can't!). I'm still trying to get through all of BluWave's old threads, for example, and it takes some real commitment especially when you're in the thick of it yourself. I'm in no way saying I don't appreciate your help, I do. Thank you. That being said, I will try to give a very brief background with the basics to help you help me. I understand I've been fairly verbose in the past and that can be a communication barrier in its own way, I'll try to keep it as brief as possible. (Thread 1, Thread 2)

Background:
-W and I both military, married 6, together 8, no kids, 1 dog.
-I became depressed about 1 - 1.5 years ago when I was forced to change jobs.
-W tried to help me get my old job back, it didn't work, and she felt I did not appreciate what she did.
-W tried to help me with depression but felt she couldn't get through to me.
-W and I had sex issues: I was just going through the motions and started to only care about my own satisfaction.
-When I was transitioning out of my old job to the new one, W was taking on her own new job which was extremely stressful on her. Long hours. Lots of time away from home, especially last summer.
-W got drunk with colleagues out of town and after everyone had left found herself alone with a male friend of hers. She cheated.
-W felt terrible, confused, thought maybe she loved this person. They decided to see each other again to see if it really was love. It wasn't. A fizzled rapidly.
-W told her mother. MIL told her not to tell me yet and to go to counseling.
-Counseling arranged for December for what I thought was previous issues (sex, depression, etc). I found out about A night before.
-I kicked W out.
-W was extremely remorseful. She sent no-contact letter to OM. AFAIK he has abided by it because she told OM I would tell their boss if he didn't. OM has W and 3 year old which he doesn't want to lose. (he's lucky to be alive, honestly)

Counseling:
-Went to counseling 4 days in a row because the first counselor saw we were in crisis. On 5th day we started over with a new counselor, their "expert" in infidelity that was recommended to us (of course we wanted to see the "expert").
-Expert only wanted to see us once a week.
-We saw the expert 6 times. She was not very good. She would give us homework one session and then totally forget about it the next time. She was overloaded with cases and I felt she didn't always remember the details of our situation.
-Gave W house key within first week or so, told her it was an open invitation to come home when she was ready. She never felt "ready."
-Meanwhile, W and I start going on date nights and go back to church every Sunday with each other. Also spent Christmas together.
-Only during the 5th session did W and I feel we made any progress. We decided ahead of time to tell the counselor we wanted to talk about sex stuff. It was productive. At the end of this session the counselor pushed my W to commit to the process of counseling.
-W had been feeling on the fence, that she loved me and cared for me but didn't feel that passion for me anymore. Counselor told her to stop "taking her temperature" every day, that love was a choice, that this was a long process.
-6th session, W comes in and asks for D. Gives me a letter stating she wants a D but vague reasons: We've grown apart, we're just too different, I feel like we've been roommates.
-Up to this point I had been begging, pleading, doing everything wrong outside of counseling.

Post BD (mid-Jan):
-I started divorce busting. Did not talk to her, did not text. We have only exchanged a couple of emails. I've done well to GAL. I go to the gym 6 days a week, I'm involved in the church. Today they invited me to play in the church band. I'm focusing on work as much as I can and just got a small promotion today (not actual rank, but just took on a job title and increased responsibility)
-W's step-father had a stroke. I went to help, W did not because of work. When I got back she had cleaned her stuff out of the house. Said she thought it would be easier that way.
-I sent her an email after I got back calling her out for running away and avoiding dealing with our issues. Avoiding talking to me. I took ownership of some of my problems in this email as well.
-W responded two weeks later and said she agreed we should talk.
-We met for coffee, I tried to validate her as much as I could but she didn't open up much. She told me I hadn't listened to her over the years. It finally clicked for me, she was right. She asked for mediation.
-Next day she filed for D but did not tell me.
-Several days after coffee I sent her a very sincere email apologizing for not listening to her.
-Week and a half later she responds, tells me she had thought about what I had said very carefully but that at this point we had been through too much to save our marriage and D was the best for both of us. Tells me she filed and will serve me via mail.
-Once she filed, my DB coach kind gave up and said...yup, she seems pretty set on D...and didn't really have any advice for me. I was disappointed in this and haven't sought out further DB coaching.
-I respond to my W with this email:

I have been trying to understand what is happening between us, I know that I don’t have a full understanding but I can see you are deeply hurt. I don’t want to divorce, but I know I can’t force you to stay with me. It is my deepest desire, and my prayer, that we can work this out. I can see you have needed time away from me, and I respect that need. I have wanted this time apart to be as easy as possible for you, which is why I have tried hard to give us both space these past couple of months. I have tried to avoid places that were yours so as not to accidentally crowd in on you. I feel church has been very helpful for me, so I have been attending online and also participating in a small men’s group during the week.

I have read through the emails we’ve sent since you asked for a divorce and I’ve cringed at some of the things I’ve said – there are many things I didn’t understand, even just a couple of months ago, and many things I likely still don’t understand. You may not feel or believe it right now, but I do love you, and I want to continue being your husband. I want to become the man you need and deserve and will continue to work on myself even if you don’t want me. I now realize the problems are deeper than I originally understood and have been going on longer than I wanted to believe. I know there’s no quick fix, but I’m not going to give up on you and I’m in this for the long haul. I understand that you feel we are too different and too many things have happened for us to have a successful and happy marriage. I’ve been learning and growing so much these past couple of months and I have realized that my happiness comes from within, not from you or my job. For us to have a happy marriage we need to both be happy ourselves and to have our own relationships with God. I believe I’ve finally started a relationship with God and even though I’m still learning, it has given me some inner calm, insight, and strength during these difficult times. As I mentioned previously, I realized how co-dependent I became and what a complete drag I was on you.

You have asked me to sign divorce papers. I have made it clear I don’t want a divorce, but I know I can’t stop you if this is what you want. Rather than being selfish and making the whole thing take more time and money, I will sign the papers and would like to meet you for coffee and personally put them in your hands. It is my hope you will give the papers to your lawyer and ask him to hold them for you, but not to file them for now. If you desire, we can even set aside a time to sort out our assets, our case is fairly straightforward and simple. With this I’ll have given you the ability to end it at any time; my request is that you give me a chance to show you we can make it work. Please take some time to relax – things have been crazy and we both need to clear our thoughts. It has been a very short time since this all came to a head.

You have offered several times to answer any questions I have and it has taken me a lot of introspection, reflection, prayer, and time for me to consider what I might ask. I came to the last coffee meeting with the intent to listen to you and what was on your mind. At that time I wasn’t ready to open up or admit I didn’t know everything. If you’d be willing, I’d like to ask you to coffee again, not only to give you the papers, but to ask questions. If so, then I’d ask you to please take some time in advance to consider what I have done to hurt you and share it with me at coffee. I want to understand what mistakes I have made to drive you away so I can continue to examine myself and grow.

I am not holding on just for the sake of it, to hold you back, or because I fear being alone. I know now that I don’t need you. But I want you. I love you and I will not give up on us.

Coffee Meeting #2:
-She has agreed to meet with me when she gets back from a work trip next weekend.
-I am ready to sincerely forgive her (she is not the type to ask for it).
-My plan is simple: 1) Start with small talk 2) Own up to a lot of my fùck ups and ask her for forgiveness, but not demand it on the spot 3) Tell her how she hurt me and then sincerely forgive her 4) Let her talk and listen to her.

She said in Dec that she wished she had said something eight months ago about how she was feeling. She kept it to herself because she wanted me to be happy. She said she was a coward for not saying anything. She thinks we wouldn't be here if she had.

She asked me via email what questions I have so she could carefully consider them and I referenced that (above) and told her I want to hear how she was feeling this past year, what she was too afraid to tell me, etc. I have considered asking her directly why she wants a D, but one friend thinks that's too much for this meeting and another friend thinks it would be good to force her to really think it through and answer me face-to-face. I am conflicted. Thoughts?

Otherwise, I guess I just see what happens? We have a compressed timeline right now because she deploys in the summer and is only here about two weeks a month until then. She is planning to move to Europe when she finishes the deployment -- she hasn't told me this but MIL has. She wants to have D finalized before she deploys. I have given her a couple months of space so far but with our situation I feel it's time to put my face in front of her once in a while. She has done everything via email since we stopped counseling and I feel it's waaaay too easy. I want her to want to come back to me. It may have been a coincidence, but it seems she waited until after our coffee meeting to file -- perhaps she was having doubts and wanted to see what I might say. If you read Thread 2, you can see I didn't do a great job.

I know: have no expectations. Okay. But I also cannot sit and do absolutely nothing. In many situations going completely dark may be the right choice, but in mine, especially with the limited time we have left before she leaves, I feel I need to make a few choice appearances. I would love to take her to dinner or to the zoo, but that's getting way ahead of myself right now. Coffee meeting is set and I'm interested in your help, advice, and suggestions on how to move forward.

As always, thanks!

-180

[LITB]

Hey 180,

Hope you had a great weekend. Curious to know why you started a new thread without responding to the last few posts in your last thread?

[MoveFrwd]

But I also cannot sit and do absolutely nothing.

Why do you call DBing doing absolutely nothing?

I continue to say that these notes and your pursuit are more of 'what doesnt work'. As a 180Man, I dont really see a lot of 180s.

Now that you have your coffee date set up, what exactly do you want to ask her?

[180Man]

Hey 180,

Hope you had a great weekend. Curious to know why you started a new thread without responding to the last few posts in your last thread?

It was okay, thanks for asking. I guess a couple of reasons. One, it seemed like people were starting new threads once they got to about 10 or 12 pages, and two, I felt like my background story had become too diluted for people and it became hard for people to remember what had happened. When Sandi posted calling me "Kevin" and asking about OM2 (there isn't a #2 afaik), I realized I need to recap my situation before I went to this coffee meeting.

Why do you call DBing doing absolutely nothing?

I continue to say that these notes and your pursuit are more of 'what doesnt work'. As a 180Man, I dont really see a lot of 180s.

Now that you have your coffee date set up, what exactly do you want to ask her?

When I say doing nothing, I mean in terms of my relationship with her. I am doing a lot of work on myself, I recently got invited to play in the church band, for example. Something I would never have entertained previously! There's a good chance that based on our previous email exchanges she thinks I'm upset at her and she may have made decisions based on that. I'm ready to forgive. I intend to tell her as much. I will also ask for forgiveness in my part of this because I'm aware that I did not give her the emotional connection/support she needed prior to this A happening. I will try to empathize with her and how she felt last summer while we spent so much time apart. I am not excusing it, but simply recognizing that there was a deficit under my name in her "Love Bank" due to work.

I found out tonight that one week after she asked me for a divorce, the OM texted her. They then texted a ton for the next month or so. As her texting activity died down, she likely started using her new phone number. Her mom and the neighbors inadvertently mentioned that she had a new number. I have not been calling or texting her, so the only reason I can imagine would be to either completely end her A or completely hide it.

Either way...I am drunk right now because of how upset I was earlier. Whether it's a PA or EA, it doesn't matter. It's fùcked and shouldn't be happening. I will be gracious at our coffee meeting, I intend to be able to look back at this five years from now and know that I did the honorable things...and she will know too. I will not try to [censored] her over. If there will ever be a chance for us to set things right, I certainly don't need to make things worse.

Essentially there was a six week break in contact while my W and I attempted to work on our sitch only to be overtaken by her A again. Even if it's not PA, it doesn't matter. It shouldn't be happening.

I will seriously consider telling OM's W after I've met with my W this weekend. I will have to see what she says first before I make any drastic decisions. Because I can't control what OM's W does with the information, I can't protect my W's career. That is all that holds me back..

[Cadet]

When I say doing nothing, I mean in terms of my relationship with her.

Actually doing nothing is really doing something, it's an action and a choice.
Most times here on DB doing nothing is a good choice.

[MoveFrwd]

Why do you call DBing doing absolutely nothing?

When I say doing nothing, I mean in terms of my relationship with her.

Thats kind of what I thought. You feel like going no contact is and letting her be is doing nothing and you think if only you do the 'right' thing, that maybe she will 'come to her senses' and realize what shes giving up and coming running back. Ive been there. I thought for a long time that my sitch was a puzzle to figure out and if I just pushed the right buttons at the right time in the right order, that everything would go 'back to normal'. It doesnt work.

Your note of apology and now this coffee date for forgiveness are clearly not about you. If you are calling these things 'not doing nothing in terms of your relationship', then they are clearly not for you or your own growth, but as a ploy to try to get her to come back. If the people on this board can see that with only knowing you through a few dozen posts on an internet forum, then Im prettttty sure that the person youve lived with for years can also see it. And while she is in the throes of another relationship, she is not only disinterested in what you are saying, its actively pushing her away.

Heres how I think about it, right now, you are Applebee's. Its a fine choice for dinner, but Im never going to be excited to go there. It's kind of my fallback plan D if the cooler, newer restaurants have a long wait or are too far away or whatever. Im never going to set out to go to Applebee's as my date night. What you should be doing is working to improve your restaurant - looking into new recipes, reconsidering the decor, etc. Instead, you are radioblasting advertisements about your current restaurant that she knows she doesnt want; not only is it not going to lure her in, but it's putting the seed in her head that this restaurant chain is annoying for doing so much marketing. It makes it so that if you do improve the restaurant, she isnt going to be interested anyway based on all of the brand damage that was done.

My point is that right now, the best thing you can do for your relationship IS TO STOP WORKING ON IT. Everything else you do is going to cause damage. What should you do if you are sinking in quicksand?

[180Man]

It is/was for me and for her. I cannot live and dwell in resentment. Up until yesterday I really felt like I was coming to peace with this. I hadn't had a mind-movie in a while, I wasn't angry, I truly wanted to forgive and then step back and let it be for a while.

But finding out yesterday that they were texting within a week after she asked for a divorce...and texting a lot at late hours of the night...that was very upsetting. I haven't had much sleep tonight. I've been up the last couple of hours and can't get back to sleep. I feel sick.

I still feel like forgiving her is the right thing. I think I should just pretend I don't know she was texting him when I meet her and see how it goes.

On the other hand, I'm now seriously considering telling OM's W. I didn't before because I can't control what she does with the information, but my W sent a no-contact email to OM in early December and it said if OM contacts her I will tell his W and their boss. And what about her mom and step-mom? Do they know it's continuing? Last I talked to them a couple months ago they assured me it was over and my W just needed to work on herself for a while. Are they concealing it from me, too? Is she concealing it from them? This book I'm reading right now highly recommends telling friends and family because it will help end the A. Family already knows all the gritty details, but do they know it's ongoing post-BD? Post-MC?

OM moves far away in about two months, so there's that.

Wish I could sleep.

I see your point with the Applebee's analogy. And I can kind of relate to it being a puzzle. Does walking by the Applebee's and looking at the menu not need to happen once in a while? I'm in great shape, I was doing well emotionally speaking until yesterday, and I felt I could talk to her confidently.

When I dropped the rope for a couple months, she kept pressing on with the D. I had to send my acknowledgement of service last week, it was the saddest thing I've ever had to do.

[leahsue]

Kaizen, (sorry to hijack the thread for a second 180man)- that Applebees analogy may be the clearest, more thought-provoking thing I've seen on here in terms of giving a word picture of DB. I honestly think it should be put in the newcomer's list of things to read, right up there along with Sandi's rules. For visual thinkers, I think it gives a mental image to hold onto and re-play when you start to think natural thoughts. Thanks for writing that. I don't copy and paste much from this forum, because there's so much good stuff, but this one, I will.

180man,
Not to sound harsh, but if I were in that analogy, my answer to your question about walking by to check the menu, would be no, it wouldn't make me interested or want to come in, because I would be walking by only because the ads were so loud and in my face, that I'd check the menu just to shut them up. I'd only be interested if I happened to catch the ad ON MY OWN and maybe be interested in the whole new change, decor, menu, everything, inside and out, with no pressure from Applebees, AS IF they could care less whether I ever came by or not, because they didn't need me anymore, since there was a line out the door and a 2 hour wait. Just sayin'.

[180Man]

Kaizen,

I agree with her, that was a very good description. I'm a visual person and it clicked right away.

Leahsue,

No, it doesn't sound harsh, I get it. So...do I cancel the coffee meeting? I guess part of it is I don't want her making these decisions under false assumptions about how I'm feeling toward her.

And do I tell OM's W finally? Do I ask my MIL if it's still going on and if she says she doesn't think so, tell her the truth?

Do I just give her space and let her divorce me and deploy and never see her again?

Got about 3 hrs of sleep...hope I'm asking reasonable questions.

[LITB]

180,

Don't fool yourself into thinking that you have forgiven her, while saying in the next breath that you are going to let the OM's W know about the ongoing affair.

It isn't your job to teach either of them lessons. Life has a way of doing that on its own. I would NOT suggest telling family and friends either, unless your goal is to decrease any possibility of a future with your W. It doesn't come from a place of strength. It comes from a place of manipulation and vindictiveness.

I agree with Kaizen. Your meeting with your W is filled with expectations. Unfortunately you are going to come away disappointed.