Coming back from my emotional abuse

[GoRoPo]

Hi all,

Back again, ready to resume DB'ing. I have made loads of mistakes, but I'm here reading and want to try again.

So, since last I left, we separated (per wife's finally getting the nerve up to ask in a MC session). Per the advice of my DB coach, I dove in to head first, with a good attitude, and we decided that I would be the one to move out. A friend was going out of town for the summer and said I could stay there until they got back.

So, I went for it. And it has been the absolute hardest time in my entire life. I feel like I am being eaten up from the inside out, while W is on a vacation at home, same as always, but with no ME to worry about. I'm paying all the bills, the mortgage, status quo, except I AM EXILED! So it's been incredibly hard.

I feel like I have been banished, punished, paying penance, whatever. It [censored] [censored]. I even resorted to leaving the house I was in and moving in with my mom and step-dad, because I couldn't stand being alone. So that's where I have been for a little while.

And there have been plenty of breakdowns, relationship talks and status updates initiated by me, etc. I am ready to move on from that and actually get to DBing here.

But our MC has STRONGLY encouraged us to stay "truly" separated -- no weekend trips, very little communucation, the whole bit. But I just don't feel like she is right.

Meanwhile, I really don't know where she is at in this all, and TRULY NEITHER DOES SHE. I have never seen someone so "at effect" of their emotions. As though she is just waiting for some wave of something to wash over her. She doesn't know what she wants, how she feels about us moving forward, or anything. Well except that she feels totally closed off to me and doesn't know if she could forgive me or ever open up to me again (mentioned in MC). That she is pretty sure of right now. And that she is on this "journey" without me... whatever that means. So far she has gone off on a few weekend trips alone, and resumed her online shop business.

I know that I am still very co-dependant on her (seems to be a running theme here with most of the men who have been with their spouses since their teenage years -- in fact the 2 that I have read through have been almost a mirror image of my situation).

So, a few questions, and happy to get in to more specifics of the last 2 1/2 months if anyone wants to know:

1) I have been home for the last week (living out of a bag), and basically made up my mind that I am moving back. Our MC has STRONGLY encouraged us to keep up the separation. W said that she had a rough and sad time last weekend when I had our D8 and D5 out of town with me. Seems that the therapist wants my W to see what D really looks like? Except, it's not at all what D would look like. We would have to sell the house, W would have to get a job, daughters would truly be split custody, etc. So in my mind FVCK IT, I can't take it and I am coming home.

Is this a huge mistake? Am I doing irreparable damage? Unless I bring up the R, or I am feeling shitty because I can't hold her hand or kiss her, or because I focus on her rings being removed, or who she's texting, or whatever, it's truly nice, and normal feeling. We get along great, watch movies, go out to eat (all with the kids, no "date nights").

We did discuss my moving back, and W said basically "well you gotta do what you gotta do". When I asked if she would leave if I came back, she said that right now she just wants to keep things stable and good for the kids, and her leaving would not be that... as if divorce would, but whatever.

2) Speaking of marriage counselling, and all the emotions that can come up (being needy, crying, panicked, all the UNATTRACTIVE qualities that in fact my wife said at our last session "that's so unattractive to me"), HOW DO I NAVIGATE THIS? I want to show detachment, moving on, whatever, but I also want to honor what we are trying to do in therapy. What do I do here?

3) Sex. Up until this last week, she has been open to have sex more or less whenever I wanted, and yes I was virtually always the initiator. This week I brought it up twice, but due to other R talks that I have initiated, she has said very much that she's not in the mood, that it's all mental for women. Which I get. For me, yes I enjoy sex and get horny, but I also think it helps me feel a bit more "normal" and that I am maybe getting back to being initmate with her. I suppose I should just completely stop asking her or initiating (through back rubs that turn in to sex or whatever) at all. Correct?

I guess that's enough for now. I will keep posting. Thanks.

[GoRoPo]

Just a little bump. Looking for some advice.

Also, I think that my subject may be scaring people off? Is there any way to change it?

[Fogg]

I read your post earlier but I'm out with the kids now so can't reply. I'll post something later today.

[SunnyB]

Go, I want a chance to read your whole thread, but wanted you to know I'm here. I'll be back.

[GoRoPo]

Thank you Fogg and Sunny!

I'd like to add: when I wrote that first post, I was in a really bad place in terms of blaming myself and looking back at my actions much more harshly than I do now. It's not to say I wasn't a bad partner and angry. However I personally don't consider it "emotional abuse" anymore. I do consider it inmaturity, co-dependency, insecurity, taking her for granted, and her not setting boundaries and just being "ok" with it. But I don't these days go so far as to beat myself up and classify it as emotional abuse. But maybe it was, I don't really know. Either way I have come a loooooooong way from that in that last year and months. For whatever that is worth...

[SunnyB]

Go, let's forget labels for a moment. What are some of the specific complaints your W had and how have you 180'd them? You mentioned moodiness, sarcasm... Is that what W said or what you thought? What exactly have you changed?

Believe her when she says she's on her own journey. And Go, it's time for you to start yours, too. Explore what it is to be Go without W. Go to IC, GAL, work on those controlling tendencies. No matter what happens with W, those are things you need to do for you.

[Fogg]

Hi all,

Back again, ready to resume DB'ing. I have made loads of mistakes, but I'm here reading and want to try again.

Why did you stop DB'ing.

So, since last I left, we separated (per wife's finally getting the nerve up to ask in a MC session). Per the advice of my DB coach, I dove in to head first, with a good attitude, and we decided that I would be the one to move out. A friend was going out of town for the summer and said I could stay there until they got back.

Ok, so the coach suggest this, fine. What else did the coach suggest you do that you haven't been? Doesn't seem like you are following the rules that you should be following.

So, I went for it. And it has been the absolute hardest time in my entire life. I feel like I am being eaten up from the inside out, while W is on a vacation at home, same as always, but with no ME to worry about. I'm paying all the bills, the mortgage, status quo, except I AM EXILED! So it's been incredibly hard.

Don't confuse being separated for her being on vacation and not worrying about you. From what you have written below(R talks all the time, asking for sex, begging/crying during MC) she has alot to worry with you. You aren't giving her space at all and its likely pushing her further and further away.


I feel like I have been banished, punished, paying penance, whatever. It [censored] [censored]. I even resorted to leaving the house I was in and moving in with my mom and step-dad, because I couldn't stand being alone. So that's where I have been for a little while.

And there have been plenty of breakdowns, relationship talks and status updates initiated by me, etc. I am ready to move on from that and actually get to DBing here.

But our MC has STRONGLY encouraged us to stay "truly" separated -- no weekend trips, very little communucation, the whole bit. But I just don't feel like she is right.

Then why aren't you doing this? Seems strange you could initiate sex and R talks multiple times a week..........

Meanwhile, I really don't know where she is at in this all, and TRULY NEITHER DOES SHE. I have never seen someone so "at effect" of their emotions. As though she is just waiting for some wave of something to wash over her. She doesn't know what she wants, how she feels about us moving forward, or anything. Well except that she feels totally closed off to me and doesn't know if she could forgive me or ever open up to me again (mentioned in MC). That she is pretty sure of right now. And that she is on this "journey" without me... whatever that means. So far she has gone off on a few weekend trips alone, and resumed her online shop business.

Look in a mirror, it seems your emotions are the one running wild. What would she say about you?

I know that I am still very co-dependant on her (seems to be a running theme here with most of the men who have been with their spouses since their teenage years -- in fact the 2 that I have read through have been almost a mirror image of my situation).

Yes, it common. I am/was? one of those co-dependents who didnt think life could go on without W. Its a rough cycle to break and at times I still don't even know if I have. Its possible that co-dependency wont be fully broken until we are D'ed.

So, a few questions, and happy to get in to more specifics of the last 2 1/2 months if anyone wants to know:

1) I have been home for the last week (living out of a bag), and basically made up my mind that I am moving back. Our MC has STRONGLY encouraged us to keep up the separation. W said that she had a rough and sad time last weekend when I had our D8 and D5 out of town with me. Seems that the therapist wants my W to see what D really looks like? Except, it's not at all what D would look like. We would have to sell the house, W would have to get a job, daughters would truly be split custody, etc. So in my mind FVCK IT, I can't take it and I am coming home.

Possible, but its also likely the therapist sees that you are still doing damage and is trying to minimize that since you cant control yourself.

Is this a huge mistake? Am I doing irreparable damage? Unless I bring up the R, or I am feeling shitty because I can't hold her hand or kiss her, or because I focus on her rings being removed, or who she's texting, or whatever, it's truly nice, and normal feeling. We get along great, watch movies, go out to eat (all with the kids, no "date nights")

Living together doesn't have to mean you do damage. Asking R questions and smothering her will.

We did discuss my moving back, and W said basically "well you gotta do what you gotta do". When I asked if she would leave if I came back, she said that right now she just wants to keep things stable and good for the kids, and her leaving would not be that... as if divorce would, but whatever.

2) Speaking of marriage counselling, and all the emotions that can come up (being needy, crying, panicked, all the UNATTRACTIVE qualities that in fact my wife said at our last session "that's so unattractive to me"), HOW DO I NAVIGATE THIS? I want to show detachment, moving on, whatever, but I also want to honor what we are trying to do in therapy. What do I do here?

Hard to say, but regardless you need to find a way to control your emotions in any situation. Maybe someone else can give some feedback here.

3) Sex. Up until this last week, she has been open to have sex more or less whenever I wanted, and yes I was virtually always the initiator. This week I brought it up twice, but due to other R talks that I have initiated, she has said very much that she's not in the mood, that it's all mental for women. Which I get. For me, yes I enjoy sex and get horny, but I also think it helps me feel a bit more "normal" and that I am maybe getting back to being initmate with her. I suppose I should just completely stop asking her or initiating (through back rubs that turn in to sex or whatever) at all. Correct?

This part. Honestly, shes basically told you she needs space and was done and you ask for sex? You got to get ahold of yourself and back off. To me it sounds like shes just going along with sex because she doesnt want to deal with you overreacting and becomming depressed. Not a good think if this is the case.

I guess that's enough for now. I will keep posting. Thanks.

[GoRoPo]

Go, let's forget labels for a moment. What are some of the specific complaints your W had and how have you 180'd them? You mentioned moodiness, sarcasm... Is that what W said or what you thought? What exactly have you changed?

After the first bomb drop, it was about how negative and mean and resentful and not wanting to be involved I always was, with her and the family. I completely changed this behavior almost from day one. I changed my schedule (I would stay up until all hours of the morning, and sleep as late as I could), stopped a lot of activities I had such as playing poker with friends once a week, watching football every Sunday to the exclusion of the family. I went hiking with her, we went away on weekend vacations, talked about buying a vacation home, etc.

In hindsight, it might have been too much, to the point of smothering.

And when the EA was discovered, I became someone that I never was before. Jealous, snooping, needy, etc. Those are now what I am trying to 180 from. Haven't brought up R, made advances or physical contact, etc. for the last couple of days. Things have been pleasant. But that's the next step of ME that I am really working on. Detaching, letting go of that part of me. So I can't really say I've made too much progress there. The rubber band trick has actually helped.

At its worst I was basically telling her that she HAD to stop being friends with OM, and that she had to start saying she loved me again, etc. It was way, way too much and I think it drove her away again.

I also had a very surreal talk with the OM recently (initiated by him at a party that W threw for a mutual friend's bday, which I came to). He told me that she had approached him and told him that people have told her that she might love him, and that her IC said that maybe it was something to explore... and did he love her? And he told her no. He loved her as a friend, but that was it. I asked if he had feelings for her, and he said he didn't. That he loved her as friend and that was it, and that's what he told her. It was truly a bizarre conversation, and I took more solace in it than I probably should. But there's that anyway.

So, I am working more and more on GAL. Being a great father, reaching out to people and trying to do more things. But it's been slow as far as that aspect goes. Hard to get the momentum going when I have been through the agony of separation (exile) and depressed. Still working on it.

Believe her when she says she's on her own journey. And Go, it's time for you to start yours, too. Explore what it is to be Go without W. Go to IC, GAL, work on those controlling tendencies. No matter what happens with W, those are things you need to do for you.

Have to resume my IC. In my "previous life" I was raised very much against psychotherapy for religious reasons. So living with my mom brought back some of those old feelings. So I stopped going to IC. But I think it's time to resume.

I also think that I can be in the house again without applying the pressure. These last few days have been really pleasant. It almost seems like she is coming around? Well maybe. But I am trying not to put too much stock in that. We have MC tomorrow, so I guess I'll see what she has to say then. Either way, I do know that part of my more positive mental state right now is because of it, thinking that we are on the mend, and I don't like that necessarily. So still have a long way to go with the detachment.

[GoRoPo]

Why did you stop DB'ing.

Because of friends and family, who were/are trying to get us to do this religious counselling that W doesn't want to do. So I tried more heavy handed tactics to get her to do this with me, thinking that it would help if I could just make her do it whether she wanted to or not. Seems to have been a pretty big mistake.

Also, reading and listening to other advice and losing faith in the DB process, combined with the above that made me lose faith in it as well. So, back to square one.

Ok, so the coach suggest this, fine. What else did the coach suggest you do that you haven't been? Doesn't seem like you are following the rules that you should be following.

He suggested to stop pursuing and snooping, which I didn't do. See above for reasons, as well as my own compulsion to keep snooping that I HAVE to get under control.

Don't confuse being separated for her being on vacation and not worrying about you. From what you have written below(R talks all the time, asking for sex, begging/crying during MC) she has alot to worry with you. You aren't giving her space at all and its likely pushing her further and further away.

Agreed. But it has been so hard, especially when she has seemed so ok with it, detached herself, like she is on vacation when I am suffering in hell.

But yes, I do agree.

[/quote]
Then why aren't you doing this? Seems strange you could initiate sex and R talks multiple times a week..........

Honestly, because of how hard the separation has been on me. There are days when all I can do is sit there and grieve, and the littlest conversation with her brings me back up. Not where I should be, believe me I know, but that's the way it has been. Without kid, it would have been much easier, but we do need to have that contact and it always seemed to have kind of snowballed in to a non-separation separation.

It's come from both of us. She also has initiated contact with me. But I still don't necessarily feel like separation is the only or right way to go about this. Nor do I think that she knew what she was really asking for with it, what it really involved, because of how long we have been together and how young we were when we started our R.

As I said, since I have been back it's been really quite pleasant, especially the last few days when I have totally backed off. Almost normal except without the husband and wife stuff. We'll see what she has to say in MC tomorrow morning I guess...

Look in a mirror, it seems your emotions are the one running wild. What would she say about you?

They are indeed. Before the last few days, more of the same -- needy, panicked, desperate, controlling, etc. Again, the separation and all the above of me being exiled, etc. put me in a really, really bad place. Being back now, I have eased off completely for the last 2 or 3 days now. I am giving her "psychic space", and hopefully that will be enough.

Yes, it common. I am/was? one of those co-dependents who didnt think life could go on without W. Its a rough cycle to break and at times I still don't even know if I have. Its possible that co-dependency wont be fully broken until we are D'ed.

I feel the same way. Not that I think or know if we are headed for D, but I do wonder what I will be like if we DO stay together, if I will ever not be co-dependent. I think it's something that I have to take up with my IC when I resume (see above).

Possible, but its also likely the therapist sees that you are still doing damage and is trying to minimize that since you cant control yourself.

Interesting perspective. Therapist of course hasn't come out and said it, but perhaps you are right? Or maybe she subscribes to "feeling the pain" school of thought, which I don't agree with. As my DB coach said, he has never seen any one punished back in to a relationship. Still very unsure.

Living together doesn't have to mean you do damage. Asking R questions and smothering her will.

Another very interesting take on it. Maybe I'm just hearing what I want to hear, but I think you are right.

Hard to say, but regardless you need to find a way to control your emotions in any situation. Maybe someone else can give some feedback here.

I am curious if anyone has any opinions. It's the hardest part to navigate, trying to maintain a PMA while honoring the therapy and exploring the emotions. I want to be "real", but I don't want to drive her away and show the negative sides that are a recipe for disaster when it comes to DBing.

This part. Honestly, shes basically told you she needs space and was done and you ask for sex? You got to get ahold of yourself and back off. To me it sounds like shes just going along with sex because she doesnt want to deal with you overreacting and becomming depressed. Not a good think if this is the case.

Yeah... I think you are right. I have backed completely off (well I did tell her how good she looked after the bath, and pinched her butt a little later, which I regretted but she laughed and didn't seem upset about it), and I'm going to continue that route until she makes a move. At which point I honestly don't think that I will be able to NOT have sex with her. But I'll cross that bridge if we come to it.

Thank you so much for your reply.

[Sotto]

Hi Go, from what I read, it has been difficult for you to really get DBing underway. Your posts are all about you and your W, and you seem to measure things in 'days' rather than the much longer timescales needed.

From what you post, you switched from someone who was doing your own thing - sleeping in and not spending time with the family - to 'super H' - which as you say was probably a bit much. Added to that, you weren't able to make the most of the gifts that S offered as you remained linked to your W and grieving.

For me, I think the questions are all about you - who are you and what do you want? What kind of father do you want to be? What really matters to you in life? You seem to be passing by these opportunities that this difficult situation brings. And I believe this introspection is needed for all of us to have a successful R again - whomever that may be with.

I would suggest you make IC a priority for yourself, and seek to shift the focus from your W to you - at least for a few months. Remove all marital pressure and start to get into your DB groove in respect of your W. Re-read DR and/or DB and truly start to follow the advice. You have missed opportunities in recent months - but so do we all. That's okay, but we need to learn and adjust when that happens.

So, I'll love to see you post some plans that aren't all about your W - but are all about you and DBing for the next few months.

Good luck with everything, Toots :-)