Strong EA after 2 yrs M #2 - The journey begins

[Complex]

It was beautiful. The way how Mozza sees things and helps out makes me feel sad for the situation he is in but I know he will be fine and a great person.

I had a fun night/dinner with my coworkers after work. It felt good. Having a great time with my mentor and some great people. Interestingly our new employee (very pretty and intelligent 45yr-ish old woman, divorced lol) gave me a lot of attention tonight. It just makes me feel good to notice I am liked and appreciated.
And somehow my mentor leaked some information about my issues which I am not mad about. It feels good to talk open about things. Hiding bad things was a big part of my life. My dad is an alcoholic (although he is a very very good hearted person) and I pretty much never spoke open about it. It feels good not to feel awkward for things that are NOT your fault.

I don't have the energy to get to all the questions from 25yearsmic and take my time answering and doing some more soul searching.
I'll do that on Monday and take my time.

But I'm afraid of the in home S. Not making things easier. But I got no choice right now. I'll take on the challenge and be the very best I can and GAL as much as I can. I just need to get my butt out of the house. I signed up for the gym again and will get my 10 pounds lean back that I lost. I want my life back!!!!

[Complex]

I also start to think that what's happening right now, as hard as it is, is the best (or let's say second best) thing that ever happened in my life. (You can guess what the first best thing was..)

[Complex]

Ok before I sleep and get back to work tomorrow lets do my first little 180 and take some time to answer some questions and do some thinking

And YES I won't focus on W or OM or whatsoever anymore but myself.. I know by now if I don't get a real 180 done, I have zero chance.

So, what actions(not words) are you going to take, to do a 180?
Starting when? Why?


Starting: yesterday. What: No more pursuing, no more snooping, no more doing things that have the intention to cause her feeling guilty, getting my life on track, stop talking and thinking - start DOING, BECOMING the person I really want to be, not just talk about it, stop regretting, stop wanting to control things, forgive her, forgive myself, love
Why? To become the person I want to be, with no regrets, knowing I gave the very best I have


BUT I need some technical advise how to respond to certain things and how to properly DB handle certain situations.
Thanks

A whole lot of those circumstances will either never come up (so your time spent on worrying is wasted. Time that should have been spent on the changes you want to make)

If you finish the book(s) most of your questions^^, will be answered.


Still need to read a third of the book, ASAP


As for what your wife says...okay, So, when your wife says

{{WHATEVER SHE SAYS}]

YOU LISTEN... and see what you can learn about HER perceptions and HER hopes and HER dreams. Maybe she will tell you what was missing in the marriage, maybe she doesn't really know, but whatever it was, she feels she has it now.

You validate what she says. That's NOT to say you must agree.

Validating does Not = agreement.

Validation means you attempt to understand what she is telling you. You can re-cap it, repeat back to her what you hear her saying. "So w, what I hear you saying is that 'x' is important and you feel that need is met. Is that what you mean, w?" Show her that you really want to understand her wants.


IF she says "OM really gets me. HE knows what I like and WE have so much in common!...."

You can say "I can see how that would make you feel good".

It's not about you; it's not about OM; it is about HER.
You do Not argue with her about what YOU have in common with her.

No arguments. You cannot argue your way back into a marriage or love.

As I asked earlier, what has she told you, specifically?

If you can't answer that, I don't know how helpful my words are going to be.


not sure what exactly you mean by what has she told me, so here different points:

Thinks she told me a long time ago (BD and after): She is unhappy and miserable in our M, she wants sth more in her life, we don't have the drive and future goals in common, not enough connection, she wants a 'complete' man that has his things figured out, I am an awesome person but just not for her, R based on romanticism not friendship. Loves me but more like a friend, I don't have enough passion and I don't follow through. All this = disconnection + what OM has what I do not...understandable actually

Things she told me recently (last 2 weeks): She screwed up that she even married me, she loves OM, their R is based on long term friendship, now she wants to do things right, help me so I can stay here and figure out my life here, wants to support me and stay my friend even if I don't want to, I could call her when I'm 90 years old and she will be there for me. We eventually have to forgive each other, that she is incredibly sorry, that she wants to gain my trust back (that she lost through lying to me about OM) , that she hopes to gain trust for me back (lost through snooping) - she didn't say all this at once, slowly leaking things.

Things she said without her knowing that I know: Things are getting real now (related to her bonding with OM and D). That she wants to do things the right way with OM and tell him that I know. And all the rings that I don't know how much weight I should put in with her friend about OM. Don't want to put too much focus on this part...

Is that what you asked?





I know you are busy at the moment but something tells me you have the urge to take short cuts here.

This isn't the place or situation for shortcuts. The only way past this pain is through it.

But things do get better. I know that.

So, back to YOU...

THANKS AGAIN AND AGAIN!

I'll get to the other questions now.

[Complex]

Did I actually ever mention that OM at work is a doctor? W a nurse.

No, but why does it matter, at all? They have medicine in common, or what?

Why is this^^ about them, (whom you have no control over) and not about you? Remember, you are all you control. So put your focus back to YOU and your work...

what are your 180s again? And the GAL? Sometimes it's good to get back to the basics of DBing...

1) changes YOU want to make in yourself;

Answered in last post. Plus finishing college, increase education (see GAL)

2) GAL activities you want to explore;

Signed up for gym, created myself a good training plan, 3x a week, hang out with friends once a week. Star playing golf again. Signed up for college again, starting at junior college dice I can't transfer my college classes from Germany, goal: getting my bachelors degree, become a teacher (goal I dropped to move to US)

3) 180s, (at least 2)

see last post

Can yo list some of your short term goals, towards the overall goals: self improvement and Reconciling?

What are they?

see therapist and find out things about MYSELF and my lack of motivation, NOT about M, solution and action based approach, get fit and muscular again like I used to, stay busy, don't spend too much time at home, make W trust me again that I won't snoop, make her "like" me again as a person...that'd good for now




He's married to his work and is playing hard to get it seems like. Doesn't want a work based R. Likes her a lot tho.

I'm married to an MD. I could sit here and just agree with you but the fact is, you do NOT KNOW HIM. Why try to read HIS mind or heart? Even reading their texts (which will absolutely infuriate HER if she finds out) isn't going to give you a real picture of who HE is. And Complex, HE does not matter. Do Not focus on OM.

In most situations, including yours I think,

the affair is a symptom, Not a cause of your problems.

[b] I told myself that over and over again. It is very true and helps if you understand that


[/b]
Seriously, why bother snooping now? It won't change your path, will it? If so, how? If not, then drop it.

You'll make yourself nuts thinking about how much money he earns and the prestige he gets, and you will become bitter and overlook or gloss over the things You need/want to work on and instead it'll be all about him and his flaws or greatness and blah blah blah.

SOoooo, Back to WHO matters most here, i.e. you and you new improved self...




While she's adoring him trying to get every bit of attention from him possible. It's kind of one sided actually. (I know bc I snooped)


SIGH...why snoop about this??
You already knew she was having an affair. Does it change one bit of YOUR approach?

Does it honestly make you feel, down deep, any better? How?

It makes me feel worse, not better. But it was IMO necessary, since she played it down and I believed her. Only snooped twice. 1. OM and EA developing since we called it "quits". 2. Confirmed EA is serious and she wants D to be with OM. And especially that EA is going on for much longer than I thought.
NO MORE SNOOPING. I know everything I needed to know.



Kinda scripty. Doctor, successful. Me foreigner, live in the limbo, Mr. nice guy, , crying his ass off in front of W all the time.


Oh man Complex, come on, is that really how you see this scenario playing out?

All so very simple. Just you being a "nice guy" with the ONLY reason there's any limbo or poverty with you, is b/c you are a "foreigner"?? Is that truly what you want to say now?


Not what I'm saying. Proud of being a foreigner. I guess I just pessimistically summarized the situation and let myself down

Hey come on, If you come here to say that You have no flaws to work on, other than being "Nice", as if "everything was great UNTIL OM came along"...then you will feel powerless to change things.

You seem to be saying that showing your emotions was the reason she had the affair. Is that what you mean to say?

I don't agree. You said you only showed those emotions after the affair was discovered, right? So how is that related to her choice to have the affair, at all?


I showed emotions all along, from BD to EA, although I suspect EA started parallel with unhappiness of W in M. As a symptom, not the cause! Agree on that.

Never mind all this, b/c What matters is what were you like before the affair AND how will you act, from this day forward?


I was myself. A person with passion for life, enthusiasm about things I did, dreaming about doing good things and having a great future, having fun in my life and be authentic. How will I act from this day forward? Like myself 2 years ago with more wisdom and more motivation, more action, less talking

Oh, one thing....one thing I can say for doctors. At least in this country, they all work their butts off to become MD's. That's just a fact. For years they earn little or nothing.

When they finally complete their journey, after years of training and residency, and they become staff or attending physicians, then they earn better incomes. But by the hour, it's not great pay. They work LONG hours. They deserve their high incomes.

Okay I'll stop feeling a bit testy about that. I guess a part of me vigorously defends MDs b/c thats what I do; it's my profession, (i.e. I defend hospitals, & doctors/nurses who are sued.)

Also why I'm mad at myself. I acted human, but I acted human WAY too long and pushed her out, confirming everything she said. Now I regret.
But all we can do is move on. It's taken its course.

Well, maybe it's a language barrier, but what are you saying ^^here? I'm not clear.

So You think "acting human" is bad? And you think that's the "flaw" you want to work on? Not sure I can help with that b/c I am a human too! Last I looked, I was.



[b] I meant I was human crying, feeling down as hell, begging, mourning. But I didn't pull myself out of the dirt early enough. I didn't change myself

Cutting to the chase... What do you feel were YOUR mistakes or contributions to the problems?[/b]
B/c THAT and the DB basics ought to be your focus now.


I made promises what I want to do with my life. I didn't show persistency, nor passion, I wanted HER to change so she will make me feel better. I was mad that SHE didn't do anything for me involuntarily. Instead of me changing and see if that is going to make her feel better and eventually giving sth back automatically. I talked to much and didn't follie through. Etc etc. oh god my eyes are shutting. Need to sleep


Work on those. GAL big time. You must detach and become the better choice.

If your w once loved you deeply, if you had a great connection, then in time those memories can resurface if you don't prevent or hinder that from happening.

FYI, The affairs doctors & nurses have, tend to move faster than others.

They don't continue indefinitely b/c there's too much going on at work, and too much stress to keep that up and their reputations do matter. So they make a choice relatively early, compared to other affairs.

You want to look your best as a husband and catch, for when she looks your way.

Get ready for that. GAL, Detach, become a man only a fool would leave.

thanks for being kind and also trying to give me some hope. It's what keeps us alive. I'll review the 2nd of the 3 big posts of yours on Monday. I'll be working all day tmrw then drive home 6h.
Hope you are able to read "between the lines" how I posted/answered things. And thanks for reviewing in advance

[Complex]

The more I thought about everything, especially trying to really understand all the things my wife told me, I see the indifference between her and me that we are dragging around for over a year now, I did NOT understand her well enough.

It doesn't matter right now anymore since I have to focus on myself but the reconciliation scenario is more distant than it ever was.

I see now what a huge marathon this is going to be.

[25yearsmlc]

The more I thought about everything, especially trying to really understand all the things my wife told me, I see the indifference between her and me that we are dragging around for over a year now, I did NOT understand her well enough.

It sounds as if she wanted you to be who she believed you to be, before. From your own words, You either got depressed and or felt directionless and it showed.

I read somewhere that "90% of 'depression' is feeling purposeless. Finding meaning & direction in your life will cure most of it." Sorry I can't recall the author of that quote but it resonates with me at the moment.

Does it ring true for you? Do you think perhaps you lost your focus, your sense of direction, and that depressed you - which worsened all of these^^ things? A vicious cycle, really.

No matter what your wife does or says, you need to re-direct yourself and you will benefit from that. Agreed?

It doesn't matter right now anymore since I have to focus on myself but the reconciliation scenario is more distant than it ever was.

I see now what a huge marathon this is going to be.

1) YES you must focus on yourself and getting back on track. Don't refuse your w's support in that endeavor ( if you need her for citizenship purposes).

2) Marathon? For someone wanting a lifetime commitment to work, is a year really too long? It's not a year in jail; it's a year of personal/professional growth for you.


I'd say a good year of her seeing you on track, being upbeat and PASSIONATE about what you are doing, will go a long way towards your future - and her view of you.

She is infatuated with a man who has finished a lot of schooling, passed tough tests, endured an internship and residency (unless he's in it now, which I doubt) and she sees him as intense, passionate about his work, finding/giving meaning to the work and in her eyes, that contrasted with what you were doing.

From your words, it was a contrast. But that can change. Sounds as if you want to. So let the growth begin.

As a doctor's wife, let me tell you a few things he has going against him, okay?

The prestige and value of his work is attractive, until it's the only thing anyone ever asks about. I was rarely asked about the type of law I practiced, OR how our children were,

but instead was asked about what MY HUSBAND was working on then/next and where "we" were headed next, for HIS career of course.

After awhile, that gets really old.

Raising our kids mostly by myself also got old really fast too. Our son was 8 weeks old when h began medical school

(H had been a DVM before, so he was in school to be an "animal doctor" when we married). It was extremely hard, but we had been married some years before so there was already a bond between us. And then there was our son as well.

Anyhow, H worked long hours for several years, and he never ever had "normal' or predictable hours. That's exhausting for a spouse, let alone with a child (or 3 kids).

H worked or was on call (and thus, was absent) for 9 Thanksgivings in a row. Our children barely knew it was a holiday. Luckily they were small - but that meant I was a single parent on those "family" holidays. There were also many Christmas Eves and New Years Eve or Day that I was on my own, or had a h asleep in bed after working 36 hours in a row.

Yeah, 9 Thanksgivings in a row...The money wasn't great or even very good, until all of the training was over.

That's many years of not having money or much of it. And then most doctors face a mountain of debt when they finally finish it all. Not fun.

So Just as they reach for the "Brass ring" (that is an idiom that means they finally "won the prize")

they still have a lot of debt and long LONG hours and more responsibility too...but the pay jumps. Their prestige jumps. Their egos can too.

Not sure if OM was married or has an ex wife, (does he?)

I wonder how your wife will feel about him when he's working so often, for such long hours, and it doesn't improve anytime soon...

And when he's tired after work, (and trust me, he will be) how FUN and attentive will he be then?

The OM isn't the issue, but what attracts her to him, might be.


His drive and sense of purpose are the same traits you have within, but which have been hiding. Get those out of hiding.

Show your drive and determination, that you can/do pick yourself up after you fall.

Since you two did fall in love once upon a time, don't worry about the chemistry. That can resurface.

The attractive parts of you have been covered up by the guy you described, in terms that include:

a guy who seems lost and "cries and pleads", a guy who got "depressed and has no direction", and "didn't finish college yet", etc.

Maybe She just didn't want to have to be your cheerleader for life, and or the financier of your stall out.

Complex, Here is some wonderful news. You can change ALL this^^^. It's very doable. You need to do it for yourself, anyway.


Embrace this^^ Complex, welcome it! See it as the opportunity it is, and the kick in the butt you needed. When you see it that way, the PMA will be much easier.

It'll be natural. You can do this. You must do this.

What step can you take THIS WEEK?

[Complex]

Thanks for your time

Yes I do feel like I'm depressed and ended up in a vicious cycle. Lost my direction. I just totally settled. I was happy with what I have, but I didn't need more and my wife was too responsible for me. She criticized me for exactly those things too after BD. Although I made good efforts this year to improve my situation but then I lacked drive and passion.

I agree on everything you said.
NEXT WEEK (Mo-Wed, Thu-Sun I'm gone for work again):
MO: - Therapist appointment (I am NOT going to ask him how I can fix my marriage, of course I'll tell him my situation, but my therapy should be about me), Gym, finish DR, Getting some information on the upcoming Semester, signing up for courses
TUE: - Work, College, start the book "boundaries" (Starsky's recommendation), meeting a friend for dinner.
WED: Gym, work, getting info about seeing a priest, maybe confess


Legal things:
Starsky preaches to act in my own interest. Which in my case means to stretch the D as long as possible. To buy myself time before things get finalized.
My citizenship application is ok to do now, until April. It will probably process decently fast and I'll have it latest in April.
Then I am afraid W will rush into D. But we will see. Is there anything I can do to put a hold on filing etc? Maybe rather go for legal S?
Nothing to really worry about right NOW but I want to be prepared.

Last status of W: parents should get involved soon. She didn't fully speak it out but her position is: I'll get my GC, and after a "reasonable" amount of time after (so it doesn't look to obvious and I jeopardize that they still take it away) we head for D.
I'm not sure what a reasonable amount of time would be after Greencard renewal.
Fact tho is I would very likely to be able to renew since I can proof that M was real and I want to save it but W is leaving me. It's all about the good intentions, but I have to look into details of that. It's risky to rely on that probably.
But the government is spying all this here anyway

Either way, it's going to buy me some time. But it's rather complicated to figure it out the right way and figure out how much time I have to at least turn quick D plans around. Wonder if W actually knows that's its going to be a little more complicated that she thinks....she mentioned weeks ago if we both agree we can make D uncomplicated. She wants a "friendly" D. Parting as friends. But we got property together so a lawyer is unavoidable anyway.

I don't have any clue how long D will take and what is going to happen. I'll just act in my personal interest and be as loving and understanding at the same time.

Main focus is on myself anyway but I want to act in my own interests when it comes to D plans and set my own healthy boundaries in the process.

[Complex]

Another light went on:
I actually critized W so much for not "trying" hard enough to save M and improve R. It was a legit accusation regarding not getting outside help as a last resort or to improve our communication and get a third person involved. But she actually really tried when I look back. She involved me in all family activities, we tried to "date", spend a lot of time together.
...BUT I didn't change at all. I just tried to convince her to convert to my opinion, my view of the whole story and M. Obviously that didn't work and she felt misunderstood and I just showed so much pain that I was going through.
I was NOT ready.

But like Mozza said. Things get worse before they get better. And I am....WAS a person who needs to hit rock bottom or feel like it's all too late to realize and do a 180.
it's ne we too late to do one tho!

[Lost!]

I come from a long line of Doctors...many of my family,friends, cycling buddies are Dr.s nearly all have been married SEVERAL times....often to nurses or staff. I know three close friends/colleague who have dated nurses, engaged to nurses, and married to nurses. All three have broken it off ( divorced) and now married to a regular joe.

looking for a mate based on a specific career or earning potential strikes me as shallow. Doctors may chase Nurses skirts, but your w will be lucky if OM marries her. That would be far to degrading for some.....I've seen many young nurse be swept of their feet by the recently divorced Attending, or the new Resident, and then crying when they move on. Or the sad older nurses who make them selves up everyday, but have never landed their doctors.

Even though I was a well respected neurologist and a good provider to my wife and daughter, my wife of nine yrs still cheated on me with a young administrative intern. Meaning this goes both ways. Just because we have an M.Ds after our name, that does not give us any more real advantage over........your wife will realize this with time.

All you can do now is focus on you, listen to yourself, and decide whether or not your relationship is worth saving. If you do decide you want to make things work, then you have to take things one day at a time while remembering to take care of yourself.

[Lost!]

If I were you I'll not discuss green card or citizenship with her anymore. She will use that as bargain chip to get what she want (divorce without consequences for her actions). Not saying your marriage will end but You can always get your permanent residency and citizenship with or without her. All you need is proof of the affair.