Unlearning Conflict Avoidance - 9

[MrBond]

""...spouses who spent “time alone with each other, talking, or sharing an activity” at least once per week were 3.5 times more likely to be very happy in their marriage than spouses who did so less frequently. ...spouses with a larger percentage of shared friends spent more time together and had better marriages."

Stuff like that - "

Aside from the broad generalizations of relationships, what do you want to see in YOUR relationship specifically?

[Brahmin]

Luck,
You know me in person. Try to get yourself ogether a bit. I see no context with your article and your situation your in.

Sit back and try to see your situation in 1 yr 5 yrs 10 yrs. it's not hard.

Please read divorce and new beginning immediately. Very good book . Please re read it . Perspective and context are relevant for any situation. Please don't loose it in your constant daily rat race. Please detach, you won't die. The biggest devil is in your head, the fear and rejection and fear of loosing. I hate to be advisorial but I care about you and want to be direct.

Be the father. Period. It's the value and belief at the core that need to change. Out ward actions follow the inside. Also read mans search for meaning victor Franko.

I learn from reading. Try things that help your emotional learning. Practice . Slay the dragon. Courage comes from heart. Not from mind. You can analyze with your mathematical brain . Heart, It's way too powerful, that's how we are wired.

[LuckyLuke]

Hi Brahmin,

It is good to hear from you. Thanks for your concern.

I've started Frankl, something that has always been on my list. With my German background, I've found it important to visit concentration camps and to try to understand, of which maybe this is another part.

I spoke with my sister this morning, who was concerned about fairness and keeping assets in all this. If this boils down to (mostly) selling the house, and splitting it 50/50, then it seems manageable. Probably there are other issues/things lurking - do you have advice here?

I'd like to do it right, or at least better, if there is a next time. How is it going for you on that front?

Luke

[Brahmin]

Hi Brahmin,

It is good to hear from you. Thanks for your concern.

I've started Frankl, something that has always been on my list. With my German background, I've found it important to visit concentration camps and to try to understand, of which maybe this is another part.

I spoke with my sister this morning, who was concerned about fairness and keeping assets in all this. If this boils down to (mostly) selling the house, and splitting it 50/50, then it seems manageable. Probably there are other issues/things lurking - do you have advice here?

Well just get out of the situation as resonable as you can, dont drage the conflict, lawyers love to make money on estate division and fairness arguments. In the end you both will make the lawyers rich so think smart now.

I'd like to do it right, or at least better, if there is a next time. How is it going for you on that front?

Now your focus and clarity comes from spending your thinking and actions around your kids not wife not divorce not girlfriend, some times not even you. Be the best father. Connect to your kids emotionally and give them stability and warm. You will find answers coming to you when you look in there eyes with question. If I have a tough choice to make I look into my sons eyes and some how I tend to make better decisions. Keep your head clean work out every day go to gym, get a tredmill or work out bench , I have both , men are hunters dont forget, we need physical work every day . Don't sit in a room for 10 hrs in front of a tv or monitor, above all don't watch porn, it bleeds your soul, be real , get a gf if you have to, be brave. Be an excellent father for the next 5 yrs or you choose you time, leave that stupid heartless women, she is not worth your time, leave her emotionally , train your thinking.. You can do it , I struggle and back slide but I keep coming back on track. I need to strong emotionally to be an excellent father to my son. So if your ex makes you weak( fearful, indecisive, coward, unclear) you just let her go. Don't get me wrong you need to moan for her loss, its like she is dead for you, the hard part is she is alive and you will see her everytime you exchange your kids. It will get better. You will disengage eventually, life is beautiful and we are built resilient.
Luke

[LuckyLuke]

W fortunately seems, at least she says so, to want to keep things simple: sell the house, split the proceeds 50/50, and we are each on our separate, merry, ways. There is no alimony in Sweden, and child care is not much. Paying for my son's university, though not much, could be a point of contention though, and perhaps she should pay some fraction of it also. You don't hear much about drawn out legal stuff here, but that could always be changed...

I was out for a long run today, and trimmed an apple tree, what with the no snow, relatively warm weather.

Frankl is good, about half way through.

Luke

[MrBond]

So have you been standing up to her? Have you been expressing a "passion" for things yet?

[25yearsmlc]

Luuuuke,

You want us to put the "secret" of a successful marriage, on a page here?

Uh, okay...here (POOF!)

...oh wait, I forgot, we don't have it!

Ah, but you can at least try to structure it a bit, and use your mind when doing so is useful (perhaps this is my training and German background showing).

Of course emotion is there too. I'm not a machine. I can be wildly in love.

My list was just examples, not the big points gabbysmom brought up, to which I say amen also.

I'm just looking for some perhaps useful ideas. If you could redo the whole wife and marriage thing, is there something you feel might make it better?

Luke, anyone who is here on this site DOES HAVE a LIST of things they'd do differently, if they had it all to do again.

OR, they have learned nothing!! They've wasted a lot of time and pain on pretending they were perfect spouses, OR they just kept hiding from themselves, their choices, to reduce any chance of further rejection.

By keeping everyone at arm's length, they think they are safer. But they merely guarantee being alone.


For example, The NY Times had an article this week about marriage: "...spouses who spent “time alone with each other, talking, or sharing an activity” at least once per week were 3.5 times more likely to be very happy in their marriage than spouses who did so less frequently. ...spouses with a larger percentage of shared friends spent more time together and had better marriages."

This^^^ strikes me as sort of...sterile and obvious. It's "sterile" b/c you read it like it's research of an object, and that the research "must" apply to all situations, like math principles that work in each country. In marriage, no one act fits all situations. And the research above is obvious b/c, well b/c it is obvious.

For instance, While I complain about my h being gone a lot, the fact is that distance has not always been harmful to us. For the longest time, we rarely took each other for granted.

BTW We had some EE customs that you can incorporate in your next r. Exercises you did with your buddy there, you could do with your spouse. Alone of course, so the kids don't think you have brome "real weirdos".

Any partner or good friend can ask, and then LISTEN w/o interruption, to what
they
But you will evolve MORE as you being to date, if that is what happens. And you will need to be aware and sensitive to YOURSELF...and your partner.

So don't get a script or "to do" list, and then never veer off it.

There are also times we suspect a behavior is not working but we persist b/c we feel compelled to see how things develop. We take too long to admit what is failing or not working. We get too invested to see fairly.
\

Yin and yang, monitor what works, change when it does not.

HERE is the challenge with doing what seems obvious.

The obstacle we create for ourselves is not changing course when a "program" of ours is not working. This happens for 2 reasons.

First, we do not see that it is failing. OR we suspect it's not working but we have no idea what to do DIFFERENT now, b/c hey, different is new and new is uncomfortable.

As insane as it seems, we tend to repeat the same cheeseless behaviors, the ones we know are NOT working, and we do those again * again, til the R ends...and then, we are forced to regroup and rethink.

Wouldn't it be nice if we reviewed our input or "data" objectively,& realistically as it happens....and we'd assess whether our approach or behavior was helping our r or not. If not, we could stop it, AND replace it with something new, something more effective, and to improve as we go...THAT'S healthy!

That^^^ requires a lot of bravery, honesty and trust, on both sides. L, you would need to ask for feedback

I use the word "program" b/c it reminds me of a government project/program II was part of. When the data revealed that our "project"
was simply not worth the money (the results were inconclusive after a LOT of research and time, which really means, Unsuccessful. But most of the people in charge wanted to believe in what they had been doing, and keeping their jobs instead of finding new work on a project that would work...

so they stayed stuck working on a project that no one saw as very successful and some called "abysmal failure"...

When something is not working, we need to see that & CHANGE what we are doing to what does work.

Sounds and is, so simple...but COMPLACENCY happens more often.

So these Changes we need to make when a solution is sought, rarely happens in our r's b/c we are entrenched in being right OR not knowing that our "project" (relationship) is Not working. That would need to change, and so far it has in my m. Proves change is possible!

OR if one knows it's not working (as you have known for years), one may not know what to do instead of the negative behavior.

Luke, you do know what NOT To do. These are things you might try with OW sometime. A few are also things you could do with your d.

ASo now you have your own short list, but a list nonetheless, of what DOES work, with your d.

Why not ask HER for what she'd suggest for you and her to do? Choosing foods and cooking together is a great start. Next, you could take a cooking class NOT around your w...

some of those classes here are one weekend only, versus the weekly classes for months. She'll tell you what she feels she can handle.

Have you let your d know how YOU like being addressed/treated? It's okay to tell her "it hurts when I don't see or interact with you for days.." and

the founder of EE once said his 4 y/o son mentioned how often his dad would leave right after saying "I love you", the son would assume he was leaving...that's not a connection you want your kid to make.

So the father told his son he'd work on "communication better" and then would ask his son, frequently, how he was doing. Just leaned over into his son's face to ask "How am I doing today? Am I getting more patient? What bout how



Stuff like that -

Luke

LL, the suggestions I'd make for my "DO OVER" marriage, would include behaviors as unique as me or as any marriage is. It's Hard to make "rules" that apply to very many.

But here are a few things I'd do more of, or start doing, if it were me...They would become second nature so I would not spend my life doing what felt awkward.

Read aloud to each other to share some pieces of news or correspondence. You both learn and somehow it feels like a shared activity and bonds you.
Hard to fight about it too.

(Do NOT use R books or any books to "make a point" with your spouse or the reading aloud program will be abolished. Read books you BOTH will enjoy).

Shower together. Groom each other and bathe together and Walk together.

Would love to take a class together. For ME, dancing is very romantic and erotic, without being vulgar (Miley Cyrus twerks, aside) so that would be an option (if you don't know how to dance, ask yourself if you'd like to die still not dancing. Then go listen to the song "

My widowed neighbor remarried. Mind you, he had a very fine marriage to a beautiful woman he adored. 16 years of M with 4 kids age 7-13.

HE went online and was open and honest/vulnerable (he's also quite cute). He did not want to waste a lot of time on women unlikely to be suitable.
Since he's a dad, he did not want to parade around new OWs to "audition" as the stepmom.

Long story shortened, He carefully assessed who he'd date. But when he did,

they chose an activity to do together, to learn (so they were somewhat evenly matched) together and then decide. For them, it was 10 weeks of dance lessons (not something Eric would have chosen, but he probably told HER to choose)...and then, they were falling in love.

THEN, Time to meet the kids...and the kids had VETO power. IF it's not an insane reason for the veto, it makes a lot of sense to me.
THEN the kids all met (she had one child, age 9, to meet his four). And for the most part they all do get along.

They seem pretty happy. He was heartbroken when he began to date,(like many LBSers) and he had children to consider, but he was also very lonely after his w had been gone for 4 years when he finally remarried.

So I watched him take charge of his love life, cautiously and smartly planning how to meet the "Right" woman, how to court her, and how to keep each other happy long term...it's a big job. A big challenge.

So I think dance lessons for a new dance, or something a little sexy, would be a blast for my next r (assuming my leg heals fine)

BTW as my leg heals fully, I can see dance lessons in my future with h. We spent our first 9 dates dancing and falling in love and to this day we love it...(that's another reason why the broken leg is SUCH a drag!!).

What else? Music in the background is soothing. That's something.

Guess I'd sum up this way.

I would find some activities that are Low intensity level, (Dinner reading aloud, watching a favorite show) as well as intense activities, and get at least one you could do with your 3 kids or your w.
I'd try hard to get some routine of interactive things you do together.

and truly monitor for those results, big time.
I

[MrBond]

One VERY important thing to remember is that YOU must change and grow. If you don't, you will end up in the exact same situation. If you have to ask how you should show your own daughter affection, then you have a long way to go.

A healthy relationship doesn't come gift wrapped. It grows. However, you have to give it a good foundation to allow it to grow. No fear.

[LuckyLuke]

Mr. Bond, MLC,

To answer your questions: I am working on the passion part, something my analytical, follow the procedure, Teutonic brain is not accustomed to. Probably an MLC thing, but I am trying to identify something good to do for the world, something beyond my own pleasure, which seems so limited a way to live. A retired German colleague of mine works for a food bank, for example, helping transport food to people who need it, and I admire him for it (he who used to be a hard-a$$ed marketing guy, a royal pain sometimes).

Living Big Passion is more elusive - my W is very good at this. She had a charm class in high school - I'd love to go to something similar, for men.

Standing up to W - haven't had much chance, though this will probably change with her being home for a whole week now (Swedish winter sports break). She is upstairs, I am down, at least during the day, and we hardly interact. I'll take d15 skiing.

Yoga again last night - twice a week seems perfect.

MLC - I really like how your neighbor found a new woman, especially the shared activity part, thank you for the long post! Doing something together seems so important (not like my MIL and her boyfriend, who watch so much TV, each at their own) in a relationship. My W and I used to hike and bike quite a bit - something in this vein sounds fun to do again, plus maybe you get to see the real person more when there is physical resistance involved.

I also really like the kids' veto power, especially given how low my EQ can be.

More later -

Luke

[MrBond]

" I am working on the passion part, something my analytical, follow the procedure, Teutonic brain is not accustomed to. Probably an MLC thing,"

Don't consider this a result of an MLC. You've been having these issues for a very long time. If you don't even know how to hug your kids, that's not an MLC but a deeper personality issue.

"but I am trying to identify something good to do for the world, something beyond my own pleasure, which seems so limited a way to live."

While that sounds greatly altruistic, how about you concentrate on changing and making yourself right before you think of trying to change the world.

"A retired German colleague of mine works for a food bank, for example, helping transport food to people who need it, and I admire him for it (he who used to be a hard-a$$ed marketing guy, a royal pain sometimes)."

There's nothing wrong with that. Helping others can also help in your personal growth.

"Living Big Passion is more elusive - my W is very good at this. She had a charm class in high school - I'd love to go to something similar, for men."

Passion has nothing to do with "charm" or how you present yourself. Passion has to deal with you finding what you like to do and going ahead and doing it. You do something because you enjoy it and it's not for monetary reward. When you love someone, you do so with passion. You let it become consuming. You seem so proper that you don't EXPRESS passion in the way most people do. It comes out as passive.

"Standing up to W - haven't had much chance, though this will probably change with her being home for a whole week now (Swedish winter sports break)."

Don't assume conflict. You can just as well make things better through perseverance and patience. Not fear and anger.

She is upstairs, I am down, at least during the day, and we hardly interact. I'll take d15 skiing."

Like we've been telling you from the beginning, you can change these interactions into more positive ones. The problem is that once your W resists, you get flustered and stop your efforts before they have a chance to take root and grow. Like you moving back downstairs after we told you repeatedly to stake your claim upstairs.

"MLC - I really like how your neighbor found a new woman, especially the shared activity part, thank you for the long post! Doing something together seems so important (not like my MIL and her boyfriend, who watch so much TV, each at their own) in a relationship."

You don't get it. Every couple is different like 25 stated. What works for one couple may not work for another. You're looking for a "plan" and in life there isn't one. You grow and adapt with each life change.