I would add that in your situation you have a very good likelihood of recovering your marriage if you take the right steps. You have already taken what is perhaps the most difficult step - realizing your own contributions to a less than ideal marriage, taking ownership of those mistakes, and taking positive action to transform yourself into what your wife will one day consider to be a great husband and father.
The fact that you have shown change in this regard shows that you have what it takes to be in a great marriage. Without introspection, and the resulting changes, some people are destined to remain unhappy.
The remaining pieces of the puzzle are largely out of your hands. You cannot control your wife, you already realize this. All you can do is control how you react to her behaviors. She will have to adjust her dance in accordance with the steps that you take. One of Michelle's basic tenants is that if what you are doing is not working, then change what you are doing. So far, pretending that you are unaware of her affair, and trying to be a great husband to get her love back isn't working. Well, we don't want you to stop being a great husband, so no change is needed in this department. I submit that what is needed is for her to know that what she is doing to you is hurting you beyond measure, and that you wish her to stop. She needs to hear from you that you desire a great marriage with her, but you cannot tolerate infidelity in a marriage.
Do not read into this that I am suggesting you give her an ultimatum. Ultimatums are not boundaries, and you could quickly find yourself in trouble if you gave one.
Additionally, I suggest that before you go to your wife, you let the OM's girlfriend know that her boyfriend is involved with your wife. She should not be kept in the dark, it's not fair to her. She may even succeed in recovering her own relationship which would benefit you. The net effect, however, will be to speed up the end of the affair.
Once the affair has ended, and no contact is established, I think that your wife will find herself (after a period of depression and withdrawl) feeling more in love with you, and thankful for the changes you have made within yourself.
The remaining pieces of the puzzle are largely out of your hands. You cannot control your wife, you already realize this. All you can do is control how you react to her behaviors. She will have to adjust her dance in accordance with the steps that you take. One of Michelle's basic tenants is that if what you are doing is not working, then change what you are doing. So far, pretending that you are unaware of her affair, and trying to be a great husband to get her love back isn't working. Well, we don't want you to stop being a great husband, so no change is needed in this department. I submit that what is needed is for her to know that what she is doing to you is hurting you beyond measure, and that you wish her to stop. She needs to hear from you that you desire a great marriage with her, but you cannot tolerate infidelity in a marriage.
Well-stated.
Healthy boundaries are NOT ultimatums. Boundaries are all about what YOU will allow in YOUR life. The best analogy I've probably ever seen given on this forum was by a poster named Jayne, who said:
(change gender to be applicable, if necessary)
Think about boundaries like this:
Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.
Your WxH can do whatever he wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling him what to do.
But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.
He's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because he'll be outside your circle. He's free to go on and draw his own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, outside your circle.
He can do WHATEVER he wants. He's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices he wants.
BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.
That's all. Not about trying to control him at all. Tell him he's totally free. He has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever he wants.
If he's saying you have to let him into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HIM controlling YOU.
HS - I'll bet you haven't read this whole thread and you probably haven't read DD's other thread in the newcomers forum. so you're only seeing half of what I have written, and using that to misunderstand my advice. you are also not seeing the advice DD is getting from others in the newcomers forum, including tips from a former WAW that dovetails with my evaluation.
DD's sitch is very very different from mine and that is why I didn't bring up my own sitch in his thread.
regarding DD - what I (and others) recommended was not "fear of confronting" but a more complete strategy to temporarily postpone the confrontation and to do it at the right time. your advice to rush in and confront her right away is not just inappropriate to this sitch but downright dangerous.
in a nutshell - DD in the past was a less-than-perfect husband and there are a lot of things he needs to fix. therefore he needs to build up a foundation of improvements before confronting.
this is for two reasons:
1) so that she will see his improvements as permanent changes and not just a desperate reaction to her affair.
2) so that when he does confront her and say "him or me", she will choose DD and not OM. right now if he would say that, her reaction would probably be "you haven't been such a good husband in the past, I'm moving in with OM."
so for those two reasons he needs to build the foundation before confronting her, and this will take some time because he has a lot of fixing to do, and because it takes time to show that the changes are constant over time.
confronting her at this stage will not cause her to fall into his arms begging for forgiveness, and will not cause her to leave OM. she would just hide the affair better - if she doesn't walk out on DD and move in with OM.
but confronting her at the right time after he has built up a foundation of improvements will give him leverage when he sets boundaries, which he will certainly need to do after confronting her.
right now, though, any attempt to confront her or "set boundaries" would be not only ineffective but counterproductive.
that's why I (and others) have told him - confrontation at the right time.
strategy, not just letting your emotions take over.
Starsky - that is good advice about boundaries, which I think DD should certainly use in "stage 2" (after building up the foundation of his improvements, and then confronting his wife at the right time).
HS - regarding my own sitch - your evaluation is totally incorrect.
I am not motivated by "fear of confrontation" - in fact I did confront H whenever evidence of an affair or past affair came up, and I did demand that he stop it. (this is different from DD's sitch because I did not have any major things to fix on my side.) the concern that I wrote about was not "fear of confronting" but the possibility that even after I confronted him, H might be continuing his behavior but just managing to hide it better, which is made easier by his work/travel schedule. or, my suspicions could be all in my mind, as in "once burned, twice shy". the only way to know for sure (even if I would "set boundaries") would be to hire a PI, which is wayyy out of my budget. and, since H's affairs in the past were sporadic, it wouldn't be conclusive anyway if the PI didn't find anything on a specific occasion. it would be worse than a waste of money.
when I mentioned that H is well-known in his field, that wasn't to imply that I am intimidated by him in any way - in fact we built up his business together, and I have an equal part in his success, even though his role is more visible. I only mentioned his professional role to explain why our clients are so impressed with him.
and I didn't ask for your advice on my sitch. in fact, you'll probably note that I haven't written in my own thread for a while. following that discussion, and after noting the advice from other members of the forum, I re-contacted my DB coach (who knows more details about my sitch than what I wrote in the forum) and I am now following my coach's advice and strategy. in fact, I have not seen any actual signs of an affair for at least a year and a half, and H's relationship towards me has improved a lot since I last wrote in my thread.
in any event, I am certainly not going to reread your advice, that **totally** doesn't apply to my sitch. reading it once was once too many.
DD, Sorry your thread got a touch hijacked, but you definitely have multiple points of view to consider- not a bad thing to have when it comes to making the best choice for you. -HS
Starsky - that is good advice about boundaries, which I think DD should certainly use in "stage 2" (after building up the foundation of his improvements, and then confronting his wife at the right time).
Wouldn't DD then have laid an unstated position with his wayward wife of "I'm willing to live in an open marriage, because I haven't yet become a man worthy of your fidelity" ?
I will admit that I'm not too familiar with his sitch, but -- generally -- that is the main problem I have with the "I will lay out my boundary later" strategy. If a spouse is cheating, and their betrayed spouse KNOWS their cheating, and (stay with me now) the cheating spouse KNOWS that the betrayed spouse knows that they're cheating . . .
. . . and they do not lay an immediate "I am not willing to live in an open marriage" boundary . . .
. . . but rather just begin to work on themselves (I am in FAVOR of working on themselves, but only in conjunction with simultaneously stating their "I will not share my spouse with another person" boundary) . . .
then the betrayed spouse has basically said, by their (lack of) words and (lack of) actions, "I'm okay with this. At least until I've improved myself, because I've been a crappy spouse."
This is why I've never been a proponent of "only lay out your boundaries LATER, when you've made your improvements and when you're somehow "ready." To me, IMMEDIATELY (or at least a day or two after bomb drop, when you've had a chance to think thru what you're going to say and do) is absolutely the best time to do it.
Again, it all depends on what your non-negotiable "boundaries of personal integrity" ARE, to begin with. If you really are okay with it (your spouse living out an unrepentant affair basically right in front of you) for some period of time, then fine -- it's not my business to tell other people what THEIR boundaries ought to be. But I think it's disingenuous when people say (as they do so often on these forums!) "Oh make no mistake, my husband/wife knows EXACTLY where I stand, because I've said thus-and-such!" . . . while their actions show exactly the opposite.
That DB mantra of "Believe none of what they say, and only half of what they do" cuts both ways. A betrayed spouse's actions towards their wayward spouse -- or their lack thereof -- will speak far, far louder than any of their words.
then the betrayed spouse has basically said, by their (lack of) words and (lack of) actions, "I'm okay with this. At least until I've improved myself, because I've been a crappy spouse."
To be more succinct, I believe that respect in a marriage is earned. Fidelity, on the other hand, is expected.
I would (and did) expect my wife to end her affair WHILE we each worked on our own issues in the marriage. No, she didn't respect that boundary immediately (it took nearly 3 months), but it was one that I stated (and lived out) immediately, and never wavered from. It was basically a position of "End of your affair and come back to the marriage, and I think you will find me willing to work on any and all issues, including my own."
That's what worked for me. Everyone has to do what they feel is best for their own situation.
Hi HS: Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions on my sitch.
Believe me, I understand everything you are saying here. From where you're sitting, I probably look like a very weak man. However, I'm approaching this the way I am because I provided years of challenges, criticisms and judgements to my wife. I made her life miserable and I was unwilling to look at myself as a big part of our problems over the years. My W asked me on several occasions to make changes, get help and meet her in the middle over the past 10 years.
Unfortunately, it took me discovering her A with this OM to jar me loose from my "cheeseless Tunnels".
The problem now is I want to fix my marriage. My W wanted to for years and I wasn't willing to recognize that I was a huge part of the problem. Granted, she contributed plenty as well, but agian, she's involved with the OM, I'm the one who has realized that keeping my W and saving our marriage/family is the most important thing in my life!
I've told her on many occasions that I would make changes. I was going to turn over a new leaf. Sure, I made some improvements. But they didn't last a month. I would slip back into the same behaviors that got me here. So, I believe that I have to genuinely demonstrate that I can change and that I want to change. I want to be the father my kids deserve and the husband that my wife expects and deserves.
That means sucking it up. Taking it in the teeth. Is that weakness? Really? It's actually the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. I don't know the deatils of your situation, but I do know watching my W walk in the door, knowing she was with the OM and accepting it for now, takes a lot more strength than you may think. I need to prove myself to her. Granted, her choices right now are wrong, but they're her choices. I need to work as hard as I can to encourage her to choose me again!
I could respond differently. I could be emotional, angry, demanding and draw lines in the sand, but I don't think I've earned that yet. I have a lot of work to do. But the time will come.
AgainHS, thanks for your input. I do apprecaite all perspectives here.
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
Thanks for your encouragement! I realize I started two threads, but I agree with you, it seems to be a benefit so far.
Although I understand where HS is coming from, I intend on staying the course with my improvements and "foundation building". I really need to demonstrate to my W that my changes are for real and I'm committed to maintaining them.
I suppose if my circumstances were different, such as, I treated my wife like a queen for the past 10 years and she chose to enter into an A, that would be different. But I realize I contributed much to my current state of affairs (no pun intended) and I believe I have to earn the right to make demands of her.
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
