This is something a friend of mine wrote recently about boundaries, that says it really well, I think:
Think about boundaries like this:
Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.
Your wife can do whatever she wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling her what to do.
But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.
She's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because she'll be outside your circle. She's free to go on and draw her own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, outside your circle.
She can do WHATEVER she wants. She's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices she wants.
BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.
That's all. Not about trying to control her at all. Tell her she's totally free. She has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever she wants.
If she's saying you have to let her into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HER trying to control YOU.
I understand the rationale behind the whole "Plan A" thing. And I happen to BELIEVE in it (for a limited period of time). I just think there are other ways to show this, besides an "I knew all about your affair, but I pursued and romanced you anyway" strategy.
Starsky,
Like MIR and J3B, I'd also be interested in hearing more about other alternatives to the Plan A issue. I hope that you can offer some new insights on this.
Thanks!
Me & H: 44 D7, D6, S3 Together: 20y, M: 17y EA: 11/13/10, Sep: 12/23/10 EA becomes PA: Spring 2011 H filed for D: 09/06/12 D Negotiating began 2/15 OW seemingly gone on 3/15 Still negotiating D
MIR, give me what YOU believe are two legitimate* marital complaints, and I'll give you some ideas about alternate ways to demonstrate 180s in those areas, without having to supplicate your wife.
Starsky
*these should be things that YOU know are legitimate things you need to work on, and/or things that your wife CONSISTENTLY throughout your marriage complained about -- NOT just toward the end, when she became wayward. This is to separate true things you need to work on from "re-writing of marital history" that goes on in wayward situations.
Boundarys are tough. I LOVE Starsky's deffinition.
Here is MY problem with boundaries...
A fat guy going on a diet establishes a boundary of NOT eating junk food.
2 hours later, the fat guy is eating a donut.
The fat guy wasn't ready for the boundary. And now enters the vicious cycle of eating to make them feel better and being depressed cause he is fat.
AN LBS establishing a boundary and NOT enforcing it? Makes them look and feel bad. The LBS HAS to be strong enough to enforce the boundary not for the POS WAS...I care zero for the WAS, I shed no tears for them. The LBS HAS to be strong enought to enforce the boundary against the weakness inside the LBS.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
Jack that is why we always push for LBS to DB and learn it. Get that space to GAL and rebuild self esteem so they can enforce their boundaries.
Tough-Love. As we say " Fake it until you..."
One of the beautiful things that come out of walking away after dropping the counter-bomb speech is that you get out of there when your emotions will take over.
This is the very first time the LBS stands up and says. Hello. I actually would like a say in this marriage. As we know it becomes a foundation for self esteem and the ability to realize that they control their life.
When I gave my speech I was not ready for it. But it set in motion what I felt. What I thought. What I wanted to get to. So I worked towards that boundary. Did ladybug know this.... Perhaps, but I think the Walk Away Wife with the soft landing thinks the LBS is incapable of having any spine or self respect. So it really does not matter if he falters within a week of this speech. Cause it is just more par for the course.
But if he can fake it. Keep quiet. Act it. See that his wife is willing to harm him after he said that he does not want that in his life. That can give him the strength to detach and GAL.
At least the option is there.
Also it begins to create crisis in the WAS life. As they will start to wonder if the LBS actually had enough.
And if they are on a soft landing exit... Then it does not matter anyways...
Flowers always make people better, happier, and more helpful; they are sunshine, food and medicine for the soul. unconditional love is awesome!
Trying to stop this meeting is not the easiest thing and there are far to many moving parts to go into detail here. But I am trying my hardest to not have this happen. But it still might. Yes the potentially easiest way to stop this (but not guaranteed) would be to confront now. And I am not regressing to old habits to try and stop this from occurring.
and the trip is going to happen regardless, and no i am NOT looking at it to be a miracle bullet to solve all the problems. The point is that we would be together with some mutual good friends and be enjoying ourselves without the chance of in person contact between W and OM, thus hopefully distancing that while bringing us closer. When we get back i cannot keep this entire pace/scheduling up and therefore the confrontation will have to occur.
Boundaries - I am not trying to be dense here, and the info shared is good. I am understanding them better, however the circle metaphor is lost on me right now. How is it that I am settting a boundary but still giving her the freedom to whatever she wants. I am sure I am missing something here..... Please use as an example the first boundary i stated before, that i am not willing to work on the R until OM is out of picture. The consequence for her not cutting cold turkey is what.... relegating her out of our bedroom, the house, etc. and how will the relegation out of the house not drive here to the OM. Or if it does, do I just have to accept it and move on???
Starsky - Please dont judge as I list these, but the marital complaints included not enough physical touch (holding hands, cuddling etc.), gentle kisses, better listener/empathy (not trying to always fix things/come up with solutions when they are not solicited), connecting more emotionally, me being able to forgive people better/easier. One joint issue was communication. And I am sure there are more. I have done HUGE swings with most/all of these to the point where just this morning she again said it is like I am a completely different person. However I feel that she is not trying to save things especially on an emotional level and the communication is very difficult to get her to open up. It is there a little bit, but some of it is not honest communication.
Chatter - Yes my self esteem took a hit, but I have recovered and have/am building it up. To be sure I am understanding of your advice, what are you referring to with the "But if he can fake it. Keep quiet. Act it." comments.
Again, I am trying to stop the meeting, but If I can't I don't know if I should ignore it, collect information, or confront. my last resort to stopping is calling her out on inconsistencies. If only this doesn't happen I would be in the clear for the planned confrontation and be able to figure out my boundaries, and with some help from the community how to phrase them the best for maximum effect.
Trying to stop this meeting is not the easiest thing and there are far to many moving parts to go into detail here
Stopping it and ACCEPTING it are TWO different things. For you as a man, as a person…decide which one is more important to YOU.
Quote:
When we get back i cannot keep this entire pace/scheduling up and therefore the confrontation will have to occur.
As someone else posted…make sure you have ALL of YOUR DUCKS in a row when you finally decide to confront. Also, she just may…consider the vacation as a sign of weakness from you. No one knows except her how she will interpret it.
Quote:
How is it that I am settting a boundary but still giving her the freedom to whatever she wants.
I will try to explain it…..
One GIVE UP THE NOTION that something YOU DO will or will not “give her the freedom”. She has that today. Married or not, she has the freedom to do, live, say, act any way she wants. You have the same freedom. Hence the “circle” comment. BOTH OF YOU have CONTROL over WHAT YOU ALLOW IN YOUR LIFE. For example: I had friends in my life at one point that DID NOT RESPECT my boundaries. I removed them from my circle. They then made their own CHOICE to 1) respect MY boundaries or 2) NOT to respect my BOUNDARIES. They choose # 2, which is THEIR right. Just as my right was to REMOVE them from the circle.
MIR, people will treat you the way you allow them to. You have control over what YOU allow in your life. Say you said to me….Eric when you are around me I would appreciate it if you did not curse. If every time I am around you..I kept dropping the F bomb, cursing all of the time that YOU would need to make a choice, since based on my ACTIONS I already made my choice, which was to NOT RESPECT YOUR BOUNDARIES. SO…..You would need to CHOOSE for YOU if YOU WOULD continue to want me to be a part of YOUR life.
Quote:
Please use as an example the first boundary i stated before, that i am not willing to work on the R until OM is out of picture. The consequence for her not cutting cold turkey is what.... relegating her out of our bedroom, the house, etc. and how will the relegation out of the house not drive here to the OM. Or if it does, do I just have to accept it and move on???
This question is SCARY…. It is almost like YOU want someone to TELL YOU what to do (and maybe I am wrong here). No one can TELL YOU what to do. YOU need to ask yourself a couple of hard questions….
1) DO I FEEL COMFORTABLE with OM in the picture? 2) IF I do not, then what am I willing to sacrifice to ensure that what I WANT is provided?
If you are afraid of losing her, then IMO, you DO NOT VALUE YOUR NEEDS and WANTS. In short, you are putting her above yours. Not cool. Yes, as a good partner sacrifice and flexiability are important. That said, what are you will to be flexible on. Here is another example. Take me, I have 3 wonderful children (I love them dearly), my kids live with me 4 days a week. My girlfriend also lives with me. I have made a choice in my life…NOT to have drugs in it. That choice is MINE and MINE ALONE. IF my GF came home high and/or had drugs on her person, then my boundary is that I do not want drugs in the house. If I found that she came home with a crack pipe….my choice would be simple. I would pack her chit and put it in the front of the house. Period. No questions asked. Why this approach? Because I would have ALREADY explain to her that I did not want drugs in my house. She choose to not respect my boundary and so I choose to enforce it.
Quote:
The consequence for her not cutting cold turkey is what.... relegating her out of our bedroom, the house, etc. and how will the relegation out of the house not drive here to the OM.
YOU TELL ME…what are the consequences? To my earlier point what are YOU willing to give up? What is the most important thing to YOU?
Quote:
But if he can fake it. Keep quiet. Act it.
What he is saying IMO, is that even though you may be afraid – don’t show it. ACT as IF you are NOT afraid….at least that is my interpretation of what chatterbut is trying to say.
Finally,
Quote:
AN LBS establishing a boundary and NOT enforcing it? Makes them look and feel bad. The LBS HAS to be strong enough to enforce the boundary not for the POS WAS...I care zero for the WAS, I shed no tears for them. The LBS HAS to be strong enought to enforce the boundary against the weakness inside the LBS.
Look at what J3B said ^^^
Think about it….IF YOU decide to confront….then you need to be READY to stand your ground. No one can do it for YOU MIR.
SO what is it that MIR wants? Is it his W back? Well then, what is MIR willing to do to TRY and get what it is he wants?
At the end of the day MIR, you can do everything possible to get your W back. She may STILL CHOOSE to move on…No one here can ensure that this will not happen. No one.
"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter". "Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!" "Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B." - Jack3Beans
Trying to stop this meeting is not the easiest thing and there are far to many moving parts to go into detail here
Stopping it and ACCEPTING it are TWO different things. For you as a man, as a person…decide which one is more important to YOU.
Quote:
When we get back i cannot keep this entire pace/scheduling up and therefore the confrontation will have to occur.
As someone else posted…make sure you have ALL of YOUR DUCKS in a row when you finally decide to confront. Also, she just may…consider the vacation as a sign of weakness from you. No one knows except her how she will interpret it.
Quote:
How is it that I am settting a boundary but still giving her the freedom to whatever she wants.
I will try to explain it…..
One GIVE UP THE NOTION that something YOU DO will or will not “give her the freedom”. She has that today. Married or not, she has the freedom to do, live, say, act any way she wants. You have the same freedom. Hence the “circle” comment. BOTH OF YOU have CONTROL over WHAT YOU ALLOW IN YOUR LIFE. For example: I had friends in my life at one point that DID NOT RESPECT my boundaries. I removed them from my circle. They then made their own CHOICE to 1) respect MY boundaries or 2) NOT to respect my BOUNDARIES. They choose # 2, which is THEIR right. Just as my right was to REMOVE them from the circle.
MIR, people will treat you the way you allow them to. You have control over what YOU allow in your life. Say you said to me….Eric when you are around me I would appreciate it if you did not curse. If every time I am around you..I kept dropping the F bomb, cursing all of the time that YOU would need to make a choice, since based on my ACTIONS I already made my choice, which was to NOT RESPECT YOUR BOUNDARIES. SO…..You would need to CHOOSE for YOU if YOU WOULD continue to want me to be a part of YOUR life.
Quote:
Please use as an example the first boundary i stated before, that i am not willing to work on the R until OM is out of picture. The consequence for her not cutting cold turkey is what.... relegating her out of our bedroom, the house, etc. and how will the relegation out of the house not drive here to the OM. Or if it does, do I just have to accept it and move on???
This question is SCARY…. It is almost like YOU want someone to TELL YOU what to do (and maybe I am wrong here). No one can TELL YOU what to do. YOU need to ask yourself a couple of hard questions….
1) DO I FEEL COMFORTABLE with OM in the picture? 2) IF I do not, then what am I willing to sacrifice to ensure that what I WANT is provided?
If you are afraid of losing her, then IMO, you DO NOT VALUE YOUR NEEDS and WANTS. In short, you are putting her above yours. Not cool. Yes, as a good partner sacrifice and flexiability are important. That said, what are you will to be flexible on. Here is another example. Take me, I have 3 wonderful children (I love them dearly), my kids live with me 4 days a week. My girlfriend also lives with me. I have made a choice in my life…NOT to have drugs in it. That choice is MINE and MINE ALONE. IF my GF came home high and/or had drugs on her person, then my boundary is that I do not want drugs in the house. If I found that she came home with a crack pipe….my choice would be simple. I would pack her chit and put it in the front of the house. Period. No questions asked. Why this approach? Because I would have ALREADY explain to her that I did not want drugs in my house. She choose to not respect my boundary and so I choose to enforce it.
Quote:
The consequence for her not cutting cold turkey is what.... relegating her out of our bedroom, the house, etc. and how will the relegation out of the house not drive here to the OM.
YOU TELL ME…what are the consequences? To my earlier point what are YOU willing to give up? What is the most important thing to YOU?
Quote:
But if he can fake it. Keep quiet. Act it.
What he is saying IMO, is that even though you may be afraid – don’t show it. ACT as IF you are NOT afraid….at least that is my interpretation of what chatterbut is trying to say.
Finally,
Quote:
AN LBS establishing a boundary and NOT enforcing it? Makes them look and feel bad. The LBS HAS to be strong enough to enforce the boundary not for the POS WAS...I care zero for the WAS, I shed no tears for them. The LBS HAS to be strong enought to enforce the boundary against the weakness inside the LBS.
Look at what J3B said ^^^
Think about it….IF YOU decide to confront….then you need to be READY to stand your ground. No one can do it for YOU MIR.
SO what is it that MIR wants? Is it his W back? Well then, what is MIR willing to do to TRY and get what it is he wants?
At the end of the day MIR, you can do everything possible to get your W back. She may STILL CHOOSE to move on…No one here can ensure that this will not happen. No one.
MIR, I will respond more to you later, and give you some examples, but this ^^^ is an awesome, awesome post.
We really do -- over time -- teach people how to treat us.
I wanted to share a bit of an update tonight. Things may reach a tipping point but the timing is not correct in my opinion and that of some here, but it is in the opinion of others here as well. Let me explain...
As things stand I personally am not ready to make the confrontation because I am unable to shore up my finances I spoke of which will take another week approximately. I also do not know all of the legal ramifications that might flow from this ( no kids so at least that wil be avoided). But according to some I need this before moving forward.
And the other side is that W was with me today, therefore no meeting up w OM. However, I believe plans are being made for tomorrow under the guise of a fallacy that i can call her on. I am NOT willing to accept this meeting at least without confronting to stop it, but possibly not fully (due to above).
Again ideally, there would be no contact before our trip (leaving Sunday morning). And yes part of what I hoped was that we would spend the week w friends and enjoy it. As for her actions they point to her wanting to have a good enjoyable trip. And yes another desire is that this would provide her another week to spend w the new MIR and realize what she would be giving up (the plan A as has been mentioned). Immediately, after getting back the confrontation would occur as my ducks would be lined up finally. And that is when MY boundaries would be set.
But as I mentioned, this may be derailed a bit as i will have to somewhat confront tomorrow ahead of when I am truely ready, somewhat like Chatter's explanation of his confronting (posted btm of pg 7). I will hopefully have more information in the morning as i don't think anything will happen until the afternoon.
Again, I am not using/hoping the trip is the magic bullet. It is setting the final blocks in place for confronting, and i need that time for my things to get in order.
Starsky - still hoping I can get your advise/wisdom concerning the legitimate martial issues question you posed to me, along with the most recent of my posts.
Eric thank you for the insight in your last post. About the scary question reference, I am not trying to have others tell me. I guess I am trying to figure out how far to push without driving away. I realize this is uniqe to each situation and was wanting guidance from others' experiences. And I am NOT comfortable w OM in picture, I need to figure out your other question.
I will update again in the morning. I hope some of you will be able to respond. With each one i am growing stronger in my resolve.
