wife won't admit PA with OM

[greenblue90]

Yeah I think grabbing the info from both forums is good.

Its nite and day between this forum and over there. Its finding that happy medium that works for you.

[jake999]

So do I press forward with the assumption that she is lying or assume that she is telling the truth now? I'm finding that an EA would be a lot easier to accept but the possibility of it having been a PA is still unresolved for me. I guess I just don't believe her when she says nothing happened.

[25yearsmlc]

Jake
If he is casually asking for sex, its because it already happened. Plain and simple.

Not to me. GB, why is this so obvious TO YOU? I like and respect you

but your sitch has consistently influenced your advice to Jake, with a lot of "certainty" in projections. I part ways with this Jake.

She MAY have cheated, or not. But IMO, it's by no means a "done deal."

----
Stop the snooping now, I think deep down you know your answer. Now its time to stand up for yourself and for your marriage. She clearly does not respect you anymore Jake, otherwise she wouldn't be talking to OM about sex, or at the very least she would make it clear to him that "it's not like that"

again with the projections-- "She clearly does not respect you"....Um-wow gotta part ways w/GB here too. Hate to confuse you Jake but thought I'd say that fwiw.

Yeah, she MIGHT be cheating as he states. But I'm nowhere near as convinced and in teh final analysis, YOU are the h who married her and we hope YOU know her.


That's funny she'll tell you till her face is blue that OM is just a friend but why wont he say that when OM asks for sex.


Jake your wife is in serious dream land and she needs a heavy dose of reality. Some of that reality should include that she cannot treat her husband like dirt,

of ALL the men on this site, for YOU to say that just hits a chord in me. GB, me thinks thou doth protest too much. ...Come on GB...lighten up on Jake b/c he's not you and his w is not yours.

and expect ----
So here's my practical advice, read

[edited by dbmod: reference not recommended nor allowed]



so many healthy men have sworn by this book Jake, it must be worthy of a glance, don't you think?


think of what is keeping you with her, reevaluate that in the face of your new discovery. Accept that thing are as bad as you feared, then figure out how much you will tolerate.

If you stand by and do nothing you are just encouraging to be a serial cheater.

So now's she's a "Serial cheater"? Geez...jake, stay on track. We are pro marriage here, but not at all cost. But your costs down the road are going to be really high if you are wrong about her behavior OR if you pretend she was. She's hoping for a good night tonight. What are YOU doing to help create that?


Find what YOUR boundaries are, no staying overnight with the opposite sex, no friends of the opposite sex that are exclusively hers, etc., etc. Yes she'll threatened to leave, yes she'll scream and maybe run away to OM, what's the worse that could happen, she runs to have sex with him? Wait she's already doing that.

Jake I think you seriously need to consider your limits.

[Telemark]

I love healthy discourse...

gb90 and 25yearsmlc both make good points. I do have to agree with gb90 and not so much with 25 (sorry, darlin'...) about the issue of respect. I will never be convinced that a spouse who makes a conscious decision to engage in either an EA or a PA has any respect for his or her spouse; or at least, a level of respect that means anything. An EA or a PA is the ultimate insult to the marriage and to the vows and promises that support it.

Jake, 12 years ago I was an OM and a WAH. That is how my STBXW and I ended up together; we cheated on our spouses. I am not proud of that and I have suffered because of it, but I also know the mind of a WAH /WAS. And I can tell you I had no regard or respect for my first wife at that point. I was dishonest, sneaky, manipulative and completely self-centered. All I cared about was fulfilling my desires, and to hell with anyone else. I did treat her like dirt; not in an in-your-face abusive way, but in a subversive contemptible way. I carried that baggage with me for years.

The issue of confront / don't confront is always a difficult one to address, and it comes down to your level of tolerance. If the evidence you have is murky or unclear, then the best course might be to hold back and see if your W's behavior changes. If you discover hard evidence of an EA/PA then you have to decide where your line in the sand is. But I stand by the premise that women do not love men they do not respect, and they do not respect men who will not stand up for themselves.

"Trust, but verify."

[greenblue90]

25
You know I have a great deal of respect for you, and will even go as far as to say that there most likely is projection coming from me.

Here is my thing. Jake has enough information to drive himself nuts with pointless conjecture. In fact he still wonders "if she did, or didn't"

I could probably bet that his heart and mind tell him that she did. Can he live with that knowledge? Is it something he can accept? If he finds out his worse fears are true will it derail any and all attempts at piecing?

Jake needs to seriously consider this, and come to an acceptance he can live with. Otherwise it will eat him alive.

As for my tough talk on boundaries and such, at some level his W violated his trust. Whether through a true infidelity or extreme secrecy, she has given Jake reasons to believe she cannot be trusted. I really think that she holds a heavy responsibility in "winning" Jake back.

For Jake to act like all is suddenly forgotten, will probably just build resentment on his part. Yes he will need to learn forgiveness, but she has to let Jake know she feels remorse. (even if it's only for being so suspiciously secretive).

[Harrier]

"Trust, but verify."

If you have to verify...you don't trust. It's as simple as that. Anything else and you are deluding yourself.

[Harrier]

So where is this disrespect idea going to lead you?

It's going to lead only to anger and resentment that's where. You can hang on to this idea that she "disrespected" you and the marriage and you can hang onto that idea alone. Because that's where it leads.

Guess what? I'm pretty darn sure that you W (all of our Ws) thought we were disrespectful to the marriage with our own actions. Thought we disrespected them with how we treated them.

Jake, you made an agreement with your wife to move on. If you can't honor that...and from your posts you are struggling with it, then you should tell her now.

Like you'd expect her to tell you.

GB, many times people here will tell you that the offending SO doesn't feel remorse. They never apologize for their EA or PA. What then?

It boils down to this Jake, the cliches are true. Trust is not a light switch, you can't turn in on and off. Both you are are only looking to build trust. You have to want to trust the other person, it starts with small things then builds. Both of you can do things to help build trust with the other. But you have to be open to that possibility.

dwelling on if he have an PA or an EA, will just erode that trust. checking her phone, etc. erode that trust. her keeping things from you erodes that trust (I'd suggest you talk to the MC about rebuilding trust)

It's going to be rough and not easy, but if it were everyone would do it.

In my situations, I have questions about what happened. I am willing to put those aside for now to possibly build something. There may be a day when we are strong enough to talk about those questions, but that day isn't today or that day may never come.

Because in the end, what happened cannot change where you are now and where you want to be. only YOU can change that.

[Accuray]

Jake,

This debate is great. For me, I tried to keep it simple -- what do you want, do you want your W back and your M to go forward, or do you want to get the truth from your W and an apology? You *may* be able to get both, but pretend you can't, which one is more important?

Here's why I ask: W has offered you an olive branch. You have the chance to press the "reset" button. If you *really* want that to work, you have to forgive and forget, and jump in the deep end with both feet -- wipe the slate clean. Continuing to pursue "the truth" will only continue to foster bad feelings and push you apart. You can tell W you'd like the truth, you can tell her it will make you feel better. If she chooses to provide it, *and* you want your marriage to go forward, then you give her the benefit of the doubt, accept her account, and move forward, even if it doesn't square with what you think you know.

If your goal is to save your M and get your W back, that's how you do it.

Have you been disrespected? Yes. Does that hurt our pride? Yes. Do you need to continue to be disrespected going forward by accepting what has happened to you? NO. Going forward, you can set boundaries and ensure that you are NOT disrespected, but the past cannot be undone.

Pursuing the apology and doing the forensic analysis on what happened, or attempting to shame your wife pushes her away, plain and simple.

Lots of people here say that the wayward spouse *needs* to apologize, to acknowledge what they've done, to accept responsibility, and to admit their disrespect.

You know what? They don't have to do that at all. They can walk instead, and often times they do! This attitude is "little boy" talk from "Hold Onto Your N.U.T.S.".

That's why it comes down to *what do YOU want?*

Our wayward spouses actions are definitely disrespectful. When they do them, however, they are already checked out! You are not part of the equation at that point, it's all about them. Therefore, they are not willfully disrespecting you, they're just not thinking about you at all.

Now, your W is offering to re-engage with you. Will you give her the chance, or is your pride more important?

That's a hard question for most of us -- what do YOU want?

Accuray

[FreeBird0120]

So do I press forward with the assumption that she is lying or assume that she is telling the truth now? I'm finding that an EA would be a lot easier to accept but the possibility of it having been a PA is still unresolved for me. I guess I just don't believe her when she says nothing happened.

Hi Jake:
Just my 2C, but for some reason, for me as much as a PA would kill me to know occurred, I think the EA was be worse as there is an emotional attachment there that is a lot harder to break.

I had told my H that it almost would have been easier for me to accept that he just wanted to "have a little fun" (for lack of a better way to say it) then to grow emotionally attached to OW...it's been harder for me to deal with the fact that he has/(hopefully now "had) some pretty deep feelings for OW...it's such a blow to your self esteem and worth knowing that when deep feeling arise for someone else that you become replaceable to the one person you thought loved you beyond understanding...

My heart aches for you as I know exactly what you're going through and what you're feeling. I too snooped for awhile and everyone is right when they tell you that it just causes more pain. Please try to stop doing this and start trying to heal yourself through your 180's and GALing...

I wish you luck and you are in my prayers...BIG HUGS!!

[25yearsmlc]

wish I had time to say more and forgive my sexism here

but freebird, YOU are a woman and for US, an EA is more threatening. To men, it seems the PA is...and for some it ALL is...whatever

I had an EA 20 years ago and on my own kept it from becoming a PA. I lack the time for details

but believe me, at the time I felt totally justified. Even now, all these years later I can see why I felt as I did b/c H WAS GONE A LOT and no woman would have felt attended to or valued...enough of that...and as for "respect"...well maybe it's semantics.

But I sure felt I respected my h and his work but could not compete with it. He cared for the world's most critically injured patients but he was never home and when he was, he was so pressured and sleep deprived, he was a jerk to be around. And this was not for a month or two, but for years.

So yeah, I almost had a full blown affair. By the grace of God, go I.

If my h had discovered it and tried to shame me or blame me, I would have divorced him and said he pushed me into the arms of OM

and I would have believed it fully....

so my question is a lot like Harrier's....If she is or isn't having a PA OR DID in the past (even more useless and counter productive, imo)

AND OR, if there is "respect" or isn't, (as if there are no other options in human behavior)

THEN WHAT?? End it all b/c he can't get past it? If so, at least own that you Jake are one of those guys who cannot forgive

or get past their egos or whatever else....why "ego?

B/c SHE SAID she wants to be m and you said she's acting like it. Most people here would give an arm for that...


it's YOU who still looks behind your shoulder....

So do I press forward with the assumption that she is lying or assume that she is telling the truth now? I'm finding that an EA would be a lot easier to accept but the possibility of it having been a PA is still unresolved for me. I guess I just don't believe her when she says nothing happened.

Hi Jake:
Just my 2C, but for some reason, for me as much as a PA would kill me to know occurred, I think the EA was be worse as there is an emotional attachment there that is a lot harder to break.

I had told my H that it almost would have been easier for me to accept that he just wanted to "have a little fun" (for lack of a better way to say it) then to grow emotionally attached to OW...it's been harder for me to deal with the fact that he has/(hopefully now "had) some pretty deep feelings for OW...it's such a blow to your self esteem and worth knowing that when deep feeling arise for someone else that you become replaceable to the one person you thought loved you beyond understanding...

My heart aches for you as I know exactly what you're going through and what you're feeling. I too snooped for awhile and everyone is right when they tell you that it just causes more pain. Please try to stop doing this and start trying to heal yourself through your 180's and GALing...

I wish you luck and you are in my prayers...BIG HUGS!!