18 days, lc4. He called me this week; achieved Expert qualification with the M-16.
That's my boy.
So...I've been on the No More Mr. Nice Guy website & forums. VERY different approach to WAW's. I can't say that I disagree with all of it, but there is a very hardline approach that is put out there for dealing with a WAW; kind of the "kick her to the curb" mentality.
There is a lot of discussion about how the WAW has no respect for her H, as evidenced by her EA or PA, and that respect almost never returns even if she does. If the WAW is dragging her feet about a D, the LBS should take matters into his own hands and file himself, thereby gaining control of the situation and shedding some of the Nice Guy traits that were part of the reason his W went down the path.
Looking back over our marriage, I can see where I played the Nice Guy a lot, to the point where I stopped being an individual man and became a kind of passive-aggressive weak version of myself...always trying to please, but getting angry when it did not net me the desired results. It got worse over time, as did my dwindling desire to "live life". I became very complacent..and very undesirable.
If you've been following my situation you know the OM is not a "Nice Guy", and this seems to be what really hooked my W. So...now what? I can do 180s until I fall down and she will never know. And even if she did, I do believe there is no respect or trust left between either of us.
Assume she woke up out of the fog, realized her mistake and wanted to return. Would the respect and trust also return? Probably not, and we would be right back to where we were; maybe worse.
My stance was that if W wanted the D she would have to do the heavy lifting and file / pay for it herself. As of today, W has made no progress in moving forward with the D. I can't read her mind so I really don't know why. But in agreeing to her request to hold off on the proceedings - again - am I simply being more of the Nice Guy that turned her off in the first place? One minute I am so ready to be done with her and her deceptions, and the next minute I am in deep despair that she is not here and will not come back.
H 56 W 48 D27,S21 SS25 SS22 Severely autistic M(#2 for both) 9 1/2 yrs. "I've never loved you" 3/7/2011 Separated 8/7/2011 BITS
Telemark, just a couple thoughts / questions. What is your ultimate goal? To teach your W a lesson? Is it to get your M to the best place it's ever been? To become the best possible you? Is it to be in a position to move on as quickly as possible? What will get you closer to your goal? What will get you farther away? IMO, her lifestyle she's chosen will come with it's own lessons. She will eventually crash, and crash hard. If and when she follows through with the D, you definitely need to do whatever is needed to protect yourself. In the meantime, make your life great.
jb, I honestly think my ultimate goal is to be done. She is still lying to me and her family about what is going on.
Her F just called here...he dialed the house phone instead of her cell phone. We said hello, he said how sorry he was about everything and was bewildered by the fact that W would move out and have a roommate. Roommate? I asked him if she mentioned anyone else. No, he said, she told him she is living only with a woman. I set him straight regarding the facts. He was pretty angry she had lied to him and said, "She has turned into her mother."
So...even though part of me misses her, it's pretty clear she has no respect for anyone...especially herself.
H 56 W 48 D27,S21 SS25 SS22 Severely autistic M(#2 for both) 9 1/2 yrs. "I've never loved you" 3/7/2011 Separated 8/7/2011 BITS
TM... following along on JB's comments... be absolutely sure what you want before choosing an ultimatum. The power of the ultimatum/threat is that there is a bright line that cannot be crossed or dire consequences will follow. The other edge of that sword though is that you absolutely have to follow through on the threat or you lose all face and consistency.
If you want to end this that is certainly a choice. I don't have an OM in my sitch... I don't know what I would say if I did. But I'd be lying if I said I hadn't had thoughts of an ultimatum or threat of divorce. Particularly when I'm fed up with the disrespect or feel I'm being completely taken advantage of.
But then I pull back. I realize that ultimately, at least right now, divorce is not what I want. I want our M to work and so could I threaten her into compliance? Maybe. But what kind of life would that be?
Right now I don't believe my W wants a divorce. I think the idea of an actual D scares her, primarily because of the logistics of it and maybe the emotion too. So it might "shake her up" in the immediate but in the long-term the price would be very high. Coercion always fails eventually, and that's what it would be.
She has to come around on her own terms and in her own way. And if she never comes around then she never comes around. If you think you're there... that she'll never come around... then it's in your power to change things. But understand you're likely heading down a path that you may never be able to recover your M from.
Married 6 together 8 Me:38 W:31 second marriage for both SS12, SD10, S6 Bomb: 9/8/11 (day before our 5 yr ann) W moved out: 2/18/12 D final: 11/12/12 Share S 50/50. Spend as much time as I can with SS & SD
I know exactly what you mean about the [edited by dbmod: reference not recommended nor allowed]forums.
Those guys really push for the R to end. I can see in your case how they would push you to D. They did to me too. I am huge into [edited by dbmod: reference not recommended nor allowed], but some caveats do apply.
When you start becoming an IG your interactions with others will change. The pure fact that you start establishing boundaries will ruffle some feathers. Some partners adapt to this others don't. The biggest mistake IMHO is to declare you won't take crap anymore and start cutting people off. (kinda like your W). Sometimes I feel some devotees start worrying too much about "being right". It's not about who is right but about what is fair. NG's don't even shoot for that, thus get walked all over.
In your sitch I think there's a chance she may never come back. If she does it will be rather hard for her as she runs into an IG not an NG. You owe it to yourself if she comes back to take the lead and establish the rules. She'll probably try to negotiate don't fall into that trap. Find what is a deal breaker and stick to it.
Be careful as you become an IG not to go MLC yourself. It's about balance.
Telemark Your WW needs to hit rock bottom, that may be the only thing that will save her. Because right now especially given her past of EA's, she hasn't learned anything except to avoid, lie and cheat. She refuses to grow, anytime she reaches a rough patch or a crossing point, she chooses neither and just makes her own path.
Who divorced who in her last marriage? That might matter and why did they divorce. And how long was her previous M.
Those answers might tell us where she might be headed.
Man it just seems like a lot sitches are headed nowhere good, I wish it were the opposite.
In the end it doesn't matter how many boundaries you lay down, or how many OM you run and scare off, or who you expose it to, while it may help in ending the A..........it will always be up to them to confront themselves and decide to come back.
Some do decide to return and work on things, some don't b/c it will be too much pain and yes even sometimes the BS has moved on to bigger and better things.
Stay positive
Me:29 WW:26 No kids 2 dogs T: 11 M: 2 D-day 1: 08/2010 D-day 2: 05/2011 1 POSOM Separated: 06/2011 WW ILY commits to M 9/18 Files D 9/19 ILY Still 9/21 WW are fun
I am not got going to BS you...our marriage was the result of both of us leaving our previous marriages. I'm not proud of that fact, and I am sure the long-standing guilt of that contributed to our marriage problems. The strange thing about all of this is that her XH, his wife (#2) and I have become good friends; they invited me to their house this past Saturday night for cake & coffee. It is remarkable and disturbing to find out her words and actions during this situation are so identical to what she said and did to him 12 years ago.
"Because right now especially given her past of EA's, she hasn't learned anything except to avoid, lie and cheat. She refuses to grow, anytime she reaches a rough patch or a crossing point, she chooses neither and just makes her own path."
You nailed it.
H 56 W 48 D27,S21 SS25 SS22 Severely autistic M(#2 for both) 9 1/2 yrs. "I've never loved you" 3/7/2011 Separated 8/7/2011 BITS
As I mentioned above I've read the No More Mr. Nice Guy book - now reading it again - and have visited their website and discussion forums. While the forum contributors take a pretty hardline approach to WAWs and especially EAs and PAs, they do make some good points, and as I think back over the life of our marriage I see behaviors in myself that were most un-appealing.
I have always been a pleaser, whether it's toward my W, my boss, my friends or just people in general. My W is also a pleaser, much more than I, and that combination meant that we frequently tried to meet others' needs at the expense of our own. Something she said a few months ago and also said several times in the last few years was that she was tired of taking care of everyone else and was going to take care of herself. When I first heard that I jumped up and tried to do everything for her, in typical NG (Nice Guy) fashion. I cleaned, did the laundry, tried to cook and generally threw myself at her feet.
After she dropped the bomb in March, I was the one who moved out of the bedroom. I continued to alter my work and free-time schedule to take care of SS22 so she did not have to. I made dinner the nights she worked into the evening. One thing that I was guilty of was leaving a slew of unfinished projects around the house - not following through is another trait of a NG. So I became Mr. Fix-it and started finishing the unfinished. Was I doing all of this for me? Of course not. I was trying to win the approval of my W, who would see what a great guy I really was and would leap to her senses.
See where that got me...
I now see where the pleasing, the inability to complete anything, the lack of a "man's life" and the co-dependence on her for my validation were big turn-offs. Did they justify her starting an EA, walking out and having the OM move in? Absolutely not. But she had already begun her exit strategy.
SS25 told me about a conversation he and W had in March; she had admitted to him she was in love with the OM but knew it was wrong, and she was going to end all contact with the OM and throw herself into working as hard as she could to save our marriage. She was telling him what he wanted to hear, because from the day of the bomb she continued her EA and insisted to me she had no desire to remain with me or save the marriage.
I suppose it boils down to "too little, too late". I continue to work on myself, but now it is for myself. I do not see my W returning, and even if she did we could never trust each other. The improvements will be for me and my ability to be a better person if I ever get into another relationship.
H 56 W 48 D27,S21 SS25 SS22 Severely autistic M(#2 for both) 9 1/2 yrs. "I've never loved you" 3/7/2011 Separated 8/7/2011 BITS
I can relate to a lot of what you've stated above TM. Being a people pleaser, etc. It's hard to break out of that mold I know. It's part of who we are, but the people we are tomorrow are not the people we were yesterday. We grow, we change, we adapt and if we recognize it we can become 'better' selves.
I think a lot of us, when working on ourselves, are doing so for the sake of the R and not truly for the self. I'm not sure that it matters either way though I'm sure many would argue that it does. Any case, as long as we keep up with our growth we will be fine.
My only quibble (I like that word:) is the use of 'never' in your last paragraph. Is trust likely between you and your W? Possibly not, but we really *ahem* never know what life will bring us.
Hang in there TM, you'll be alright!
Me 43 W 38 M 5 T 7 SD20 S15, S13 with 1st W ILYBNILWY June 2010 Separation/Bomb July 2010 Divorce Feb 8, 2011
