Nearly 5 years but who is counting?

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=Dawn of Hope]MMF, I'm delighted to see another one who is determined to hold to his vows until parted by death. There are so few of us, it seems sometimes, and even when you firmly believe that it's what God wants, it gets tiring to hold out against all the people who think you should "move on" and give up on your S after a certain period of time or sequence of events. Do you read the "Charlyne Cares" devotionals? They have really helped me stand strong.

It's approaching 4 years for me, and about 2-1/2 since my H moved out. No legal action has been taken, so we are still M, although you would never know it by the circumstances. No noteworthy signs of R that I can see, but I don't expect God to keep me informed about everything that's going on on the other side of the mountain. I have a lot of trouble hearing God's voice, and I can't say I have received a personal promise from God, but I believe that even if I knew for sure there would not be a reconciliation, God would still want me to stand.

Not sure what that^^^ means, given that you say you can't forgive. I mean, that is being STUCK more than anything else, isn't it?

have you gone to a priest/minister about learning to forgive? FYI, I was not raised seeing forgiveness. My parents yelled and my dad got louder and then they'd both retreat...

Forgiveness for me, was a process and it's a learned skill. I simply did not know how to do it.

But I learned a lot about it.

I posted to Denver about in a thread of his that I added the words "a glimpse of forgiveness"to, the other day.

It might help you although it's based on a 4 day trip I took with my h back when a divorce seemed likely.

i didn't want to go, let alone with our daughters. Seemed awkward and "rewarding" to h just weeks before he was to leave. But I shelved the pain and anger and my lack of forgiveness so the girls could have one last good vacation as a family.

I figured for FOUR DAYS, I could be "Saint 25"...no way was I going to be the one to blow it...I could always "resume the position of anger" later on...(the fact that it was temporary for me is what made it possible, I'm sure...)

so later on when the trip was over and we'd had such a good time, I had really learned a lot...see the post if you want more info. I think it was a miracle really.

That meant temporarily seeing h as positively as possible, or at least not negatively.

& it changed the way I began to see h, (& he relaxed a lot too) and I was eventually able to stay in the present and let go of the past. Instead, seeing it as "from this day forward."

In fact,

by forcing yourself to stay in the "now", you eventually crowd out the ability to live in the past and as a result, you let it go.

Being in the now, really helped my happiness level.

It's a KEY part of forgiveness,

and it has nothing to do with condoning behavior.


Hope that helps, even if not all applicable.




I suspect that one of the big roadblocks to R in my M is me, because I am completely stuck in unforgiveness, and I have no idea what I have to do to be able to forgive. I know it's essential, and I want to be able to let go, but I don't know how. I've tried everything I can think of on my own, but it hasn't really improved for a couple of years.


What have you tried?

At one point I began to say out loud, while jogging or in the shower, "God, i hand my pain/anger over to you" (Cause it's too much for me)...
AND OR,

"God I hand my m over to you" I would say it before h would call or visit.
It helped me not lose it in front of him. Sometimes I said it 50 times out loud and as gimmicky as it sounds, thinking it, saying it, and hearing it all

DOES help it sink in more...

And that was a start.


because it's really all about our happiness, right? Well, no, it's not. It's about our holiness, and about praying our WAS back to a R with God. And then after that, God may bless us with a restored M, but that's the fruit, not the root.


Maybe I'm off here, and don't want to argue your faith b/c I am a believer myself. I thank God for where I am today and where I've been.

But I know God wants us to be happy here on earth. Not at all costs OR in the wrong ways....There may be tests for us. But we're not here to suffer through it all and hope for the best.

(At least, not to my way of thinking). I know God wants me to be happy BUT

doing what is right morally, IS what would make me happy.

So Maybe it's semantics, but I think Needless suffering is...worse than needless. Regardless...

I think Starsky's question is whether you have any boundaries b/c

unlike you

there are those who are in abusive relationships here, and some of them

cling to spouse BUT they misuse their religion as an excuse for putting themselves AND their children at risk

( so that they, the LBSer doesn't ever work on changing themselves, and while they are standing still and not changing, (b/c they are RIGHT)

they call it 'Standing" for their m ) and

they are so terrifed/angry/stubborn about changing themselves (or needing to be RIGHT)

and or

they are so afraid of being on their own,

that they won't protect their kids OR take a stand against violence.

It always strikes me as odd/ironic to use God as a reason for that kind of hell on earth.

I saw it growing up, so I am sensitive to it.

But Dawn, don't get me wrong.

I only say this as a message to those who might misinterpret your ways. I've been trying to help 2 people here but it's a brick wall b/c they use scripture to ignore what they're putting their children through

never mind the venegful nature of their wishes, or their refusan to accept ANY responsibility for their m problems...

(I may refer you to them if you are interested??)

You sound as if your priorities are handled in that your kids are not in danger and

you sound fine with possibly being single the rest of your life, b/c

you said that even if God were to tell you there is no reconciliation in his plan,

If I understand what you said correctly,

you'd still stand... I don't "get that"

BUT let's be clear, I ACCEPT IT.

Cheers!

[missmyfriend]

I don't know what God has in store for me or what He wants for me long term. I don't believe that God would have me stand for my marriage for now only to not stand later, i.e. if there wasn't a "future" for a R with my W, I consider my stand more for Him than anything else. I hope I am explaining this well.

My primary goal and my daily prayer is that I am becoming the person God desires. From the "information" I have, I do believe that somehow, my M will be restored. It would take a miracle for that to happen. And that may be exactly what He plans on achieving because anyone in my family and any of our friends, if they aren't believers (and ones that really rely on God for everything) feel I should move on.

Even if a reconciliation isn't what He has planned, I know that I have already received the greatest gift...a close R with Him. I pray every day that I will never be the same person I was before this all started which was someone who knew God but wasn't a real follower of Christ. I still have a long, long way to go.

Standing for your M is much more than waiting for your R to be restored. It is about becoming so much more and caring about others more than yourself. Standing is about trusting God with everything.

[figgeroni]

Maybe (and this is just an idea) God wants you to stand now...not to restore your marriage later

but to stand

for you

not for your marriage

not for anyone else

but for you

and your relationship with God

so when He tells you that you can sit

you will be able to see the people you are sitting next to for who they are
not what they can be for you

[missmyfriend]

Fig, thank you. I believe you and I are saying the same thing. I will add that God does have many histories and parables demonstrating that He does perform miracles, if we will trust Him. Today, many Christians have begun to agree with humanists that the bible is not the inerrant word of God and doesn't apply to today. I completely disagree. I not only believe that it is relevant but applies to anyone who trusts Him completely. I also believe all of the bible is important, reviewing all scripture to apply to my life.

[Lorie1964]

MMF,
I hope u don't mind, but I want to address Starsky and his concerns about our standing and our children. Starsky, u seem to think we r hurting our children by standing for our marriages, and that is not the case. MMF has stated his children r having trouble, not because he is standing, but because of the effects tjat Separation and Divorce have on children. It is never easy for a child to deal with at any age. If u were to ask ur friends whose parents r still married if those same parents divorced today they would tell u it would be devastating to them. I know many of us who stand for our marriage in a way that is honorable and allow our children to understand the importance of marriage and the vows we take.
Being Christian and listing to God and following His will is all part of that. I have had a very frank discussion with my D about making promises and keeping them. I have explained that no one deserves to be treated poorly, but when I made my marriage vows, they were not just to her father but God also and I have to keep those vows to God no matter the choices her father is making. She totally got that, and understands that standing for my marriage is nothing like being a doormat, but all about keeping my promises.
I hope this really helps u to better understand our decisions to stand for our marriage and how that in and of itself doesn't hurt our children, the separation and divorce is what hurts them and causes them to make poor choices.

Blessings!

[missmyfriend]

Lorie, I certainly don't mind you responding plus you were able to state what I was thinking much more eloquently than I could.

Stay Standing!

[Dawn of Hope]

Wow, 25, that is a lot all at once! I may have to respond in chunks. Thanks for caring enough to write out all of that. Taking it in order of what you said:

I believe that even if I knew for sure there would not be a reconciliation, God would still want me to stand.

Not sure what that^^^ means, given that you say you can't forgive. I mean, that is being STUCK more than anything else, isn't it?

have you gone to a priest/minister about learning to forgive?

It means that although I am not a person who likes to paste Bible quotes everywhere, there's one in the epistles that I take to heart which says that a married couple shouldn't separate, but if they do, they should remain unattached to anyone or reconcile with each other.

I know I am stuck. I hope something I try will unstick me and I will find a way to forgive, preferably sooner rather than later. I know God wants us all to forgive each other, and it disrupts my relationship with God when I fail to forgive, but believe me, I'm not doing it to be difficult; I just don't know what the next step toward forgiving is or how to take it.

I did go to my pastor about this. His response was, "You can't forgive someone for something they are still doing." I'm not sure I entirely agree with that, but he has a point. I am not going to talk about all the things my H is still doing which are contrary to a loving M, but suffice it to say that as far as most people can tell, he shows every sign of being completely done with me (except that he hasn't filed, which is another discussion). Most of the past problems that I have had difficulty forgiving are still going on in the present.

Forgiveness for me, was a process and it's a learned skill. I simply did not know how to do it.

But I learned a lot about it.

I posted to Denver about in a thread of his that I added the words "a glimpse of forgiveness"to, the other day.

It might help you although it's based on a 4 day trip I took with my h back when a divorce seemed likely.

Can you give a link, or more info on where to find this post?

I figured for FOUR DAYS, I could be "Saint 25"...no way was I going to be the one to blow it...I could always "resume the position of anger" later on...(the fact that it was temporary for me is what made it possible, I'm sure...)

so later on when the trip was over and we'd had such a good time, I had really learned a lot...see the post if you want more info. I think it was a miracle really.

That meant temporarily seeing h as positively as possible, or at least not negatively.

& it changed the way I began to see h, (& he relaxed a lot too) and I was eventually able to stay in the present and let go of the past. Instead, seeing it as "from this day forward."

In fact,

by forcing yourself to stay in the "now", you eventually crowd out the ability to live in the past and as a result, you let it go.

Being in the now, really helped my happiness level.

It's a KEY part of forgiveness,

and it has nothing to do with condoning behavior.


Hope that helps, even if not all applicable.

I can see how this has merit and might help. I'm not sure how to reconcile it with the knowledge (or at least the belief based on the little information that has come to me) that in the NOW, my H is sleeping with someone else and avoids me as much as possible.

(Oh, and for the record, I WAS practically Saint Dawn during the year+ that my H was living at home after the bomb. From the day after the bomb until now, I was pleasant and polite to him, and I didn't argue with him, sabotage him, refuse to do things for him, ask him for anything more involved than "please pass the salt," or intentionally make his life more difficult in any way [except on one occasion, when he asked me to agree to something I just couldn't stomach, and I politely refused; he moved out 3 weeks later]. I didn't spend any of his earnings except on his initiative. I didn't cry or lose my temper in front of him, beg, call him on the carpet for anything he was doing, or contact him [unless it was extremely urgent or he contacted me first]. I wouldn't fight with him or even criticize him, even when he initiated. I did my fair share of things that were wrong during this period (such as snooping)--I wasn't a complete saint--but not those. If he had started hitting me or something, I wouldn't have stood still for that, but he didn't, and we all have to decide for ourselves where we draw our own lines in the sand, and I put up with some things that other people said they wouldn't have tolerated. On the other hand, I started changing things about myself that had been needed for years. Too bad I didn't manage to change enough of them, apparently.)

I suspect that one of the big roadblocks to R in my M is me, because I am completely stuck in unforgiveness, and I have no idea what I have to do to be able to forgive. I know it's essential, and I want to be able to let go, but I don't know how. I've tried everything I can think of on my own, but it hasn't really improved for a couple of years.

What have you tried?

At one point I began to say out loud, while jogging or in the shower, "God, i hand my pain/anger over to you" (Cause it's too much for me)...
AND OR,

"God I hand my m over to you" I would say it before h would call or visit.
It helped me not lose it in front of him. Sometimes I said it 50 times out loud and as gimmicky as it sounds, thinking it, saying it, and hearing it all

DOES help it sink in more...

And that was a start.

I went to my pastor, as I mentioned. I have read almost everything I can find on forgiveness. I have listened to advice from others on the topic and tried most of it. More than anything else, I have prayed for help with it, from every angle I can think of, until I am sure God is sick of listening. For a few months after the bomb, I thought I was gradually moving toward forgiveness, as I learned to cope with my new, post-bomb reality, and the emotions started becoming a bit less raw, but eventually I got to a certain point and got stuck, and it seems that nothing has moved me any closer to forgiveness since then.

because it's really all about our happiness, right? Well, no, it's not. It's about our holiness, and about praying our WAS back to a R with God. And then after that, God may bless us with a restored M, but that's the fruit, not the root.

Maybe I'm off here, and don't want to argue your faith b/c I am a believer myself. I thank God for where I am today and where I've been.

But I know God wants us to be happy here on earth. Not at all costs OR in the wrong ways....There may be tests for us. But we're not here to suffer through it all and hope for the best.

(At least, not to my way of thinking). I know God wants me to be happy BUT

doing what is right morally, IS what would make me happy.

So Maybe it's semantics, but I think Needless suffering is...worse than needless.

First, I will say that there are things that have changed for the better about me since the bomb which--much as I hate to admit it--would never have changed for any circumstances less dramatic. I think that God tried to get my attention in ways that were less disruptive, but I wasn't listening, so the stakes had to be raised. I'm listening better these days.

Second, my thinking is that I AM doing what is right morally. (At least in this general regard; I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, without sin.) I really, really dislike getting into battles involving Biblical quotes, so I'll just say that as best I can tell, God sees a valid marriage as binding those two people together exclusively for life, even in the face of civil D and "marriage" to someone else, and therefore God wants spouses to stay committed to each other, regardless of the provocation. It is possible that there are exceptions--I am not going to claim I have an omniscient understanding of scripture or that I know what's best for anyone else; that's God's job, and I certainly don't want the position!--but if so, I don't think any of them apply to my situation.

Regardless...

I think Starsky's question is whether you have any boundaries b/c unlike you, there are those who are in abusive relationships here, and some of them cling to spouse BUT they misuse their religion as an excuse for putting themselves AND their children at risk (so that they, the LBSer doesn't ever work on changing themselves, and while they are standing still and not changing, (b/c they are RIGHT)

they call it 'Standing" for their m ) and

they are so terrifed/angry/stubborn about changing themselves (or needing to be RIGHT) and/or

they are so afraid of being on their own,

that they won't protect their kids OR take a stand against violence.

First, there are no kids in my situation, so that is not an issue in my stand. I have a policy of never giving parenting advice because I am not qualified, but in more general terms, I do believe that one of a parent's essential responsibilities is to protect their kids as far as possible (except where necessary for the kids' growth [which is of course a major judgment call in certain situations]). Even if what you have to protect them from is the other parent.

Second, I think that we are all called to keep changing all the time, because none of us are perfect, nor do we have an ideal relationship with God yet (and if you know of any exceptions, I'd be interested to hear about it). LBS's are especially called to change, once the initial post-bomb paralysis has eased up, and anyone who doesn't take the opportunity to figure out how to become a better person, one way or another, is being a bit foolish, IMHO. For one thing, we get the "gift" of being told, by someone who knows us probably better than anyone else in the world, _exactly_ what our flaws are ... no being held back by politeness, consideration for our feelings, or anything else! So we know exactly what we need to work on, like it or not.

Another thing about being an LBS is that it tends to drive you to your knees, so you develop a stronger R with God, which helps guide you in other areas of improvement too. A corollary to that is that you are (one hopes) more open to the possibility of God showing you that you have an incorrect belief or assumption or that you are going about something in the wrong way, which, ideally, helps with the dogmatism. Someone asked me what it would take for me to be open to the possibility of dating (which is a totally alien idea for me). My response was that outside of the death of my H, it would take being convinced that scripture did not, in fact, insist that I am M for life, no exceptions for bad behavior or pesky legal issues. And so far I haven't seen any scripture which made me think that was a possibility, but I like to think that I am humble enough to admit that I could be wrong about a lot of things.

Standing for your M does NOT mean standing still.

It always strikes me as odd/ironic to use God as a reason for that kind of hell on earth.

I saw it growing up, so I am sensitive to it.

But Dawn, don't get me wrong.

I only say this as a message to those who might misinterpret your ways. I've been trying to help 2 people here but it's a brick wall b/c they use scripture to ignore what they're putting their children through

never mind the venegful nature of their wishes, or their refusan to accept ANY responsibility for their m problems...

(I may refer you to them if you are interested??)

You could send them to me if you want (if so, have them put a message on my thread [see my signature below] about where to find them; I will get notified faster that way). However, as I said above, I don't give parenting advice, so I don't know how much help I can be regarding kid-related issues.

I do think we all have to accept responsibility for our own contributions to the fracture in the M. However, I think recognition of those contributions is a process.

You sound as if your priorities are handled in that your kids are not in danger and

you sound fine with possibly being single the rest of your life, b/c

you said that even if God were to tell you there is no reconciliation in his plan,

If I understand what you said correctly,

you'd still stand... I don't "get that"

BUT let's be clear, I ACCEPT IT.

Cheers!

I didn't get M with the idea that I'd spend years 15 and onward alone, despite having a living S (who does?). I thought I had a H who was totally committed to the idea of being M for life. But when the rubber met the road, and I started studying scripture more intensively than ever before because I had life-changing decisions to make, I came to the conclusion that if I wanted to be in God's will for my life, I had no choice other than to proclaim, and live, the idea that my M cannot be ended by the actions of anyone on earth; not my H, not OW, and not any judge. We are still M in God's books as long as we are both alive, and no court can change that. And if we are still M (which, in fact, we are, in the legal sense as well as in God's eyes, although that is immaterial in terms of the present discussion), then I have to conduct myself as a M person, even if my H is absent, in mind, heart, and/or body. Even if he's been taken hostage by aliens, or the devil. That means that if I want to please God, I can't say nasty things to or about my H, I can't do things to hurt or sabotage him, I can't dishonor or disrespect him, and I most certainly can't look at anyone else as a possible replacement for him!

Again, I want to be clear that I am not trying to tell anyone else what to do here. I certainly have my opinions and beliefs, but I acknowledge the possibility that I could be wrong. In the meantime, in order to be able to face myself in the mirror, I have to be in integrity by acting consistently with my beliefs. This doesn't mean that I am allowed to stay static (as I mentioned above, I think we are all obligated to keep changing in order to try to align ourselves with God's will). It's really tough for me to step out of my box, especially with the depression and suicidal impulses that weigh me down every day, but I keep working at it. I am still a mess in a lot of ways, but on my better days, I recognize that I'm improving, one tiny step at a time (interspersed with plenty of steps backwards, but overall there is forward progress, at least).

I want a restored M. I pray for that, and for my H, every day. I expect that I will be pretty unhappy about it if it turns out that isn't in the cards, but the fat lady won't sing as long as H and I are both alive, so it isn't over yet. And--guess what?--the results are up to God. And the God I believe in is still in the business of performing miracles...every day. My job is to keep my eyes on God and follow directions as best I can. God is in charge of the rest. The thing about faith is that if you trust God, in the depths of your soul, to have your best interests at heart, then you are able to leave the outcome up to God and stop worrying about it.

That's my take, but ... I could be wrong. Thanks for reading and listening.

Peace,
Dawn

[Starsky309]

MMF,
I hope u don't mind, but I want to address Starsky and his concerns about our standing and our children. Starsky, u seem to think we r hurting our children by standing for our marriages, and that is not the case. MMF has stated his children r having trouble, not because he is standing, but because of the effects tjat Separation and Divorce have on children. It is never easy for a child to deal with at any age. If u were to ask ur friends whose parents r still married if those same parents divorced today they would tell u it would be devastating to them. I know many of us who stand for our marriage in a way that is honorable and allow our children to understand the importance of marriage and the vows we take.
Being Christian and listing to God and following His will is all part of that. I have had a very frank discussion with my D about making promises and keeping them. I have explained that no one deserves to be treated poorly, but when I made my marriage vows, they were not just to her father but God also and I have to keep those vows to God no matter the choices her father is making. She totally got that, and understands that standing for my marriage is nothing like being a doormat, but all about keeping my promises.
I hope this really helps u to better understand our decisions to stand for our marriage and how that in and of itself doesn't hurt our children, the separation and divorce is what hurts them and causes them to make poor choices.

Blessings!

Lorie,

I was concerned about what MMF had put in his first post on this thread, about there being "no boundaries" around these kids, and that they weren't doing well:

Also, I feel that I am not only standing for my marriage but for my entire family. My children have not fared well over the years.

My wife went from being a non-judgmental moral based person to someone who is living with another person and doesn't try to lead our children by example. My kids are having a tough time knowing and living with boundaries because there are no boundaries anymore. My wife does get mad at the kids if they do something that upsets her but she treats all of them like friends, i.e. adults that can make all of their own choices. When they make a choice she isnt happy with, she gets very upset with them.

Nearly everyone who advocates for long-term "standing," correctly also advises that there be strong boundaries in place. It was the "lack of boundaries" that I was questioning on this thread.

Hope that answers,

Starsky

[figgeroni]

My only hesitation whenever I hear people staunchly defending anything by using scripture is the fear that they are so caught up with what they THINK God is saying in scripture that they won't hear what God is placing in their hearts

When one feels that one way is the only possible way

with no possibility of any other option

your faith, I believe, is not that strong

you have to open yourself to other possibilities so your faith can truly operate...it can come into those decision making points and validate for you where you belong without fear

(not that anyone is not doing this)

I worry about those people who stay still...who stand without movement and use God as their excuse for no growth, for unhappiness, for not opening up their heart to love others...if you are called to stand, you are called to stand. If you are called to be celibate, you are called to be so. If God calls you for other things, you also need to be open to that call...even if it might not gel with what you thought before.


For example...

My grandparents were married for forever and my grandpa died of a stroke when I was in 9th grade (forever ago) My grandma could have met someone else...but she was married to my grandpa who remained almost as much alive as he ever was...alive all through that house, in everything my grandma did...their love was there.

I was married and had 2 children with a pretty abusive guy. I love my children and believe they are truly gifts from God. God gave me to them and them to me. I am not married to that guy anymore. I am with someone else. Someone who I believe God designed me to meet when I met as we are matched because of what we have been through. Because of who we became, we have become the people we need to be for each other (if that makes sense)

I do not believe I was meant to be with ex-husband (2nd ex is a diagnosed sociopath...I sure can pick them huh?) Which is my point...I picked the 1st two and finally gave up and let God decide

So

My whole point here is

God has a big plan
and
you have to be a part of the whole darn thing

you can't decide to pick and chose the parts to be a part of

I wish I would have understood God's lessons without all the pain of having Him have to really smack me upside the head with some of them
but
if He didn't smack me upside the head
then
this other path wouldn't have opened
which wouldn't have led me here

so

be open and willing to see other paths God is putting before you so He doesn't have to keep smacking you upside the head

(guess that last sentence is all that needed to be said)

[Lorie1964]

[/quote]
Lorie,

I was concerned about what MMF had put in his first post on this thread, about there being "no boundaries" around these kids, and that they weren't doing well:

Also, I feel that I am not only standing for my marriage but for my entire family. My children have not fared well over the years.

My wife went from being a non-judgmental moral based person to someone who is living with another person and doesn't try to lead our children by example. My kids are having a tough time knowing and living with [b]boundaries because there are no boundaries anymore.[/b] My wife does get mad at the kids if they do something that upsets her but she treats all of them like friends, i.e. adults that can make all of their own choices. When they make a choice she isnt happy with, she gets very upset with them.

Nearly everyone who advocates for long-term "standing," correctly also advises that there be strong boundaries in place. It was the "lack of boundaries" that I was questioning on this thread.

Hope that answers,

Starsky [/quote]

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, are you suggesting that MMF's stand for him marriage is causing him to have no boundaries? I read his statement as his exW as not having boundaries, and therefore the kids are having problems and making poor choices. Are you suggesting that MMF is not setting boundaries when he is with his children? That by his long "stand" the children are not seeing any boundaries? MMF can't control his exW nor the boundaries she does or does not set for their children.