Harrier

[Jack_Three_Beans]

All because I tried to look at her stupid phone.

No not just that. A straw maybe...

I haven't seen anyone get back together after a separation UNLESS it's understood that the separation is an attempt to heal the marriage. If not, it becomes too easy to become comfortable and all you're doing is avoiding the issues. The separation becomes a way of running away from the problem.

Now you do Mr. Bond; and that'd be me. However:

...She could have also just as easily have felt you were working together at moving forward with the marriage also. She should have understood your insecurities about the OM and not have gotten upset. Likewise, if you were feeling insecure, you should have just told her your concerns and not just checked her log.

He is right about that.

Harrier the way you guys currently talk, it isn't working, the way you guys currently think and react, it isn't working...it's part of the problem.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Can you be separated and still piece?

Yes! Absolutely!
For me, I'm not sure it would have happened any other way. BUT, I am me, I am not you.

[angel61]

Hi Harrier, I have followed your posts from the start. I do remember thinking that things were happening too fast in your sitch and that you did not yet have time to assimilate all that things that you needed to learn; nor identify what you need to change. From your saying that you did backslide, that just might be the case.

Reading your posts now, my feeling is that you are all over the place. You are in panic mode again, you are pursuing, begging, distancing, talking, agreeing, disagreeing, etc. all in one breath.

What does that do to your W? It pushes her away. She is confused, you are even more so. She sees you are hurting, and she has to get out of the situation because it is driving her crazy.

Breathe, Harrier. Give yourself space, give your W space. You want to keep the M, then don't talk about it. Don't bring it up, don't let your W talk about it, if she does, just walk away or ask her to talk about it some other time because you are not ready.

And it seems that you may not yet ready to make that decision.

In my thread you said you admired how I was able to give the choice to my H, it was because at that point I felt I was ready (although looking back, I think had he chosen a D I would have died) but also because, more importantly, I knew in my heart that he was NOT going to choose a D. And that was because he, at that point, wanted an S BUT also said he wanted to continue taking care of us, being in our lives, etc. I viewed that as him wanting to have his cake and eat it too. I knew he wanted that to alleviate his guilt about OW, to give him a chance to pursue her since it was at the point that OW was turning away from him. I could see that we were important to him by the way he was asking for the S.

Honestly, your W seems to be the the same. But remember that you have to be a good choice too. In your current state - do tell me, if you were her, would you choose yourself?

However, if she does not bring it up again, then don't make her choose.

My H did bring it up a couple more times, and everytime, I stuck to my guns: no S, if he wanted it so badly, we would just Divorce. Everytime, he chose to stay. He once told me that he felt that I was not giving him a real choice. I told him that I did not believe in temporary solutions.

About snooping: I did that for so long, but honestly, it only hurt me. However, I understand that for a while, you do have to know. After a while, you ask yourself whether the snooping will make you change your mind, whether it will make you do an action that aligns with your long term goal.

For me, I started to follow the "lighthouse" way of thinking, started to "stand" for my M. That is when I realized that my goal was really to save myself and my M. Essential to that is forgiveness, and losing the anger. Snooping only makes you angry, makes her think that you will never trust her, makes you think you will never trust her, and does not promote forgiveness. So do you think snoopingnhelps?

I have stopped checking my H's cellphone records for two months now and feel good about it. I know he still speaks with OW but I fugure he has to solve that problem by himslef.

Think of it this way - you can not control what your W feels about you, what she is doing or not.

I'm sure you have read this all before....

[SDFoundGirl]

What about an in-house separation? As much as your W says she wants you there, it doesn't make sense to spend the money for you to sleep elsewhere.

My H and I had an in-house separation, and it worked out well. Maybe it would work for you too...we were in MC the whole time.

SD

[25yearsmlc]

Harrier,

I read your thread and I'm struck by a few things.

For one, you guys sure talk a whole lot. What decisions have to be made so soon, that you must discuss them, ad nauseum, so often?

Your talks seem to go on and on until you exhaust yourselves emotionally and or, you finally make a poor and painful decision.

Can you stop and just try to chillax a bit? Just both of you back waaayyy off? Don't pick at the scab for awhile and maybe the bleeding will stop and healing will start and maybe even the scar won't be so big.

I feel as if you need to Stop reading into the least physicality she shows or doesn't show, or you think she's witholding and you say it's a "pattern" b/c she did it twice...yikes, no one looks good under a microscope.

I'm a woman and I don't always put the kind of thought into a kiss or affection I should (I guess) but you for sure put too much into it.
I know your w is a "mind doctor" but she's also a mom and a woman.

I might turn my head for 6 reasons UNrelated to how I'm feeling about h, like my make up or his breath or someone watching or where the planets are in alignment...
Also, I have not heard much about DBing from you. What are your 180s? And any GAL? The 180s might show your w you are truly capable of change, which I truly believe she does not believe you can do. Hence the need for a separation...and GAL might help you contain your emotions in front of her and stop some of the R talking.

Regardless, your mind reading is mostly negative and counterproductive and moreover, even if she "means something" by it at the time, it does not make it "true."

I re-read my journals from 5 years ago and aside from getting angry all over again, what I notice is that while I may have felt that way at the time I wrote whatever I wrote, it does not make it true.
And even when it was true, it was not an immutable fact. It can change.
Don't get bogged down in what she felt at some time in the past or might today, for you or OM or her life or the kids, etc. We have moods, events, hormones,fights, pressures, pre-occupations with other matters...

Since she's very communicative with you, I would not worry that she isn't telling you how she feels since obviously she does tell you. Fact is, she changes her mind as we all do. But she examines and expresses our every feeling without taking the time to step back and ask, "is this real and lasting?" And you seek out the temperature of the R hourly.

Also, Why all the second guessing about the comments she does make, the texts to your friend-you interpreted negatively whereas I saw it the opposite way, and the affection, etc? While I can understand your issues with OM this is kinda what you do with her, on everything related to you...like I said, no one looks great under a microscope (or High Def TV for that matter) IT's not that I think you are being self centered so much as that you are projecting so many of your fears onto her, it's not helping your situation.

Next, from where I sit, the mc is not sounding super helpful.

Maybe Try a DB coach instead of a MC who just re-hashes the same old, grievance list...?? There's a lot to be said for solution based therapy, not analysis of our childhood issues, secret fears, and yada yada when what really matters is which behaviors help our m, and which don't...
While it is hard, it's often not that complicated. Speaking of...what are your 180s?

The sabotaging issue of yours you are pondering, needs some attention. You skimmed over your WAH/MLC thing from last year, so I don't know what all that was about.

But I'm betting it was a big deal to her. Maybe it rocked her world. I don't know...but you have repeatedly initiated R talks when it seems best to avoid it, or you prolong them to your detriment, or push her into a choice she might not have made otherwise. And you seem to steer things in a way where you corner her. Suddenly you are separating? Suddenly YOU are moving out? What? Why are these choices being made at all, let alone by her, for you, with your apparent consent?

By the way, anyone else find it notable that her OM is a mentor to her, whereas you are the emotional one in the m right now?

Was that always the case? I have to wonder if there's something about the dynamics of your r that make a mentor attractive to her. NOT Defending an A of course....but I'm asking if your emotionalism in front of her at this time, is helping you get closer to your goals? There does seem to be a contrast in the dynamics of the two Rs.

Being too emotional in front of her probably does make her feel very uncomfortable. It may come off as weak. Don't misunderstand me, I get it. And in Retrovaille I was really moved by my h's tears. But they are rare in him. And if she's uncomfortable with tears, does that sound attractive to you? Can you shelve those tears so she doesn't see them? It'd be a 180.

IOW, You modify your behavior for brief chunks of time and at least you get a break emotionally. Frequently I think you'll find the mere resting, allows you to breathe and relax and takes the pressure off. And then you do another chunk of time, and then another. You'll backslide but you'll also have some good to great days. And those good times will start looking better and more appealing, and the fighting over old stuff and obsessing and self inflicted wounds will look as UNappealing as they should. Time passes and the modifications are changes you have made and gotten used to b/c they are now part of you. They are real.

Here's an idea that might work for you in some form b/c it worked weirdly well for us.

4-5 years back, right before my h was about to leave for Jack3's Last Frontier land (Jack, when I can contemplate your state without my "baggage," I recall clamming very fondly. You probably have enough extra to send some down my way, now that I think of it.)

Anyhow Harrier, we had 2-3 months before the big departure day, which I saw as the end of the m so it was also the Big D day as far as I was concerned. I was in great pain and could barely contain it, very preoccupied with my pain and anger and the injustice of it all. H ignored that as he "said" he did "not want a D", which infuriated me as I found it weird and cowardly, etc. I had made this very clear to H.

Anyhow, h had a conference in Palm Springs and wanted me and d's to go for a "mini-vacation". That seemed weird and fake to me & way too hard to pull off, and also felt like we were only making it easier on HIM to leave if we pretended all was well.

Somehow a divine spark lit an intelligent thought in my head and changed my mind. I don't know if my db coach suggested it or if God did or what.(Maybe all of them)

But Somehow I realized that rather than witholding the positives, I could allow/create them for my d's, and maybe for me/us b/c it was probably the last time we'd have a vacation together as a married couple. I thought "why not make it fun for the girls so they -esp the youngest then-would have some good memories of "our family".

I decided to shelve ALL my concerns/fears/anger/pain for the 4 day period. (I figured I could always be negative again later and I'm ashamed to say that thought actually comforted me)

I really prayed and concentrated about NOT harping, and not obsessing or worrying or fuming about his selfishness and abandoning us and betraying, and blah blah blah enough already...it's not as if i was unclear with h....HE KNEW HOW I FELT ON A DAILY BASIS FOR MONTHS...AND NOTHING HAD GOTTEN BETTER FOR MORE THAN FEW DAYS, NOTHIGN CHANGED HIS TRAJECTORY..

Beginning with the decision/commitment VOW to not initiate ANY R talk for at least those 4 days...I came up with a plan...Not sure how I did it, but I did.

So on the trip when I looked at him in the car or the hotel, for just those 4 days, I decided to lose ALL the anger for awhile, to shelve it.

I just would not let myself go there.I put a stop sign in my mind if I had to. Then, Instead, I either came up with a "neutral" or even a positive way of seeing things/him. LIke laughing at his jokes rather than judging his delivery (I teach comedy as an avocation, so it's not as horrible as it sounds, but still....geez it really is)

I marvelled at how intelligent he was, rather than seeing it as him being nerdy or going on a "professorial tour". I felt some pride/admiration in my choice of h, rather than irritation.

I saw him with loving eyes. It did not hurt, and since it was just temporary, It felt safe.

For those 4 days I had a glimpse of what forgiveness might look like.

It was mostly about letting go of the crappy past. No blaming anywhere. And it was also about putting a positive, or at least decent, spin on things instead of a negative one.

I truly enjoyed myself and so did the girls and h. We went horseback riding and I CHOSE to laugh hard and easily, we went climbing and skiing and we ALL had a truly good 4 days trip.

H responded pretty well after a day of no R talk and no searing into his face with my angry eyes, and he responded very well after 3 days.

YES-his ease and comfort made me worry that he was "getting away with something!! " b/c he'd still leave and he'd think that I'm fine with this, and he can desert us & he'd think all would be well and blah blah blah THEN I STOPPED THINKING LIKE THAT - FOR 4 DAYS..

and in that time, I saw what forgiveness would look like, and so did h.

So did our D's...in retrospect it was a turning point.



I would love you to shelve your concerns for one month. To take ALL R talk off the table.

I would love you to see your w and m as positively as possible and while jack has a point about the verification issues, what if you just shelved those concerns for that month?

If she cheats on you later on, your behavior won't have caused it. You could get a glimpse of what life would be like if you let go of your fears and pain, however briefly.

[Harrier]

angel61.

You are 100% right I am in panic fear mode that drives my emotional response that is all over the place and I'm sure it's hard for my W to get a handle.

I agree that way too much M talk has taken place and it does not help. But we are supposed to have a talk tonight about the S.

I am also focusing too much on the past and how our marriage used to be.


I think she is all over the place too. she is scared to do the S, but scared not to. I don't know how your H was approaching the S. My W has consistently said that it will be a chance for breather and to work on our marriage without the pressure of day to day interactions. So when she want's the S she's saying that she wants to save the M.

I agree that forgiveness and letting go of the anger are huge for me. I haven't' reach that point. I don't think I've told my W "I forgive you" or forgiven myself.

Snooping is a coping mechanism for m when I feel anxious to the point where it's almost pathological.

Thanks for the word

[Harrier]

25 Thanks for stopping by.

1. I agree on the breather from talking. I looks like June will be a better chance for that. My W has conference and I'm going home to visit the family.

2. My 180s -
The ones I've done very well with
Be more supporting about my W's career
Eliminate the joking yet hurtful comments.
Stop blaming my W for anything that went wrong
Don't cause issues/fights in the morning
Do less stuff around the house - this may seem odd, but I was doing the lions share of the housework and kid duties. I thought I was doing it to help. My W said it just made her fell guilty.

The ones' I'm less successful with -

Not reacting to lack of affection.
Appreciate any affection including ML
Appreciate the quite along time with my W
snooping
Bringing up OM
negative thoughts about W
taking focus off her

My GALS- my main activity is that I'm a pretty serious runner.
I still do that, but not much else.

3. My wife has told me what you said about changing her mind. I remember we had a talk once and I brought up something she said in a fight. She admonished my and said "we were fighting."

4. I agree about looking at her with microscope and looking to her for validation.

5. We are not in MC now. he was very helpful, but in a limited area. I'm going to see him next week alone.
Our MC doesn't do the rehash old grievances.

6. I know the MLC thing did rock her world. I mad so many threats of divorce. she didn't know what to do/. at first she was super accommodating then it went to not caring.

7. The OM - sh had known the guy for about 10 years. Honestly she sees him as mentor, but he's not really that good of a mentor. But I do think she looked to me for some of the things he was able to fulfill during the EA.

Funny you should mention that because I know the dynamic of their R recently change. He was coming of whiney about something and she said to him. "You like someone who has poison ivy complain to a burn victim." She also todl him that she didn't need his support.

I know the EA isn't what it once was. She took drastic steps to reduce contact.

8. Finally, your suggestion. It's a good one and I've vowed to do that before and it didn't take. Why? i didn't have the tools that I know do now.

June would be good for that because My W has conference for 4 days in early just. and I'm going to colorado for 7 days in late June.

My W has not gotten more than a few days peace. She needs it...I need it.

I love the idea that "This is what forgiveness looks like" it brings me to tears.

[Harrier]

I want to add that sometimes it's hard to tell yourself NOT to think of something or have negative thought. I think you really have to train yourself.

don't believe me. Okay, Don't think of a white polar bear.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

I want to add that sometimes it's hard to tell yourself NOT to think of something or have negative thought. I think you really have to train yourself.

don't believe me. Okay, Don't think of a white polar bear.

Oh...I get THAT.

However, just because it is hard doesn't mean you should at least try to do it.

Truth be told, I still have hard feelings for the OM...none that I mention outloud, nothing that I allow to affect my day...as you said: Training.

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=Harrier]I want to add that sometimes it's hard to tell yourself NOT to think of something or have negative thought. I think you really have to train yourself.

don't believe me. Okay, Don't think of a white polar bear. [/quote

Harrier, you think I don't know this? Come on, read my signature block. I went through this stuff for years. Yes you do have to train yourself, clearly. I hope my long post demonstrated a possible way of doing just that.

Your identifcation of "pathological" behavior on your part is striking. You have a mc so why not use them at least partly, to address this destructive "pathological" behavior? I feel as if you are doing much of this to yourself but I am not a shrink. I don't know why you'd do this or why you did the MLC thing or how you got yourself out, etc.(or even if you did)

But yes, lots of it is self inflicted and that really IS something you can learn to control...oh, "it's hard"? Come on.... I KNOW!! Like Mother Teresa hard at times.

But You know what's harder? Feeling the way you feel now, for the rest of your life.


The "Plan" I suggested to you, about temporarily "suspending all negativity" and "shelving the anger/obsessing/R talk" for an alloted time period (which she does not have to know about) is not the same as time spent being apart.

Time apart is not a bad idea, necessarily, but to be clear, my suggestion was that you share each other's company WHILE NOT doing the negatives. Basically learning to enjoy your partner's company, just for awhile.

I did not see forgiveness growing up. My parents fought and escalated and then retreated, (until my father was on his death bed, filled with regrets) so I had to learn how to forgive, and it is a process.

But you both have forgiving to do. I also see that she has legitimate trust issues b/c What assurances does she have that you won't do your MLC/WAS thing again? How are you different from then, vis a vis your MLC/WAH? I read your 180s and some of them are great, but you are missing out on some of the ones you probably need to do the most.Just my ho, but You don't sound very happy obviously, so I'd be afraid if I were her. I mean, why can't she wonder if you're likely to leave as soon as your fears of abandonment subside? I guess I don't see All the trust issues as being just yours.

As for the OM, she said she does not want it brought up although she understands the checking? Okay so if that's the case, then snoop but don't get caught? I didn't get that...if you still need to check, can you give yourself a time limit so that at some point in the future you'll know you won't keep torturing yourself? Even if she'd had a full blown affair and thought about leaving you for OM, once you say you are "trying to save the m" you have to let go of this so she doesn't think you'll hold this over her head like the sword of Damacles...will you? Are you going to throw this in her face everytime you feel insecure or needy? She has to know you guys can get past this...a lot of that is up to you.
That's why I suggested a time frame for shelving things. A manageable time frame.