Upset

[AntoniaB]

SC I was saying everything you were weeks ago, and sometimes I cycle back and still say the same things about my 23 years with XH being a waste of time.

You can't really see this now because you're in far too much pain to see straight, but you will see this all IN TIME:

1. Nothing you did was ever a waste. Not one minute you spent with your spouse/on your marriage. All of it made you who you are today.
2. The biggest thing I learned in all of this is that just because I give love doesn't mean it is received and/or reciprocated. I have cried a ton over the fact that ONE MAN who "promised" to receive and reciprocate my love for him has rejected me. And yet there are COUNTLESS people around me, friends and family, whom I practically ignored for the 23 years that I was tied up in him and our very isolated life together. I learned that there is no point to crying tears over the person who won't give back what I WANT. I have tons of people in my life who do want my love and who do give back love in return. They are my focus now. Not him.
3. A friend said something very important to me. (Incidentally this is a person I was not friends with at all when the bomb dropped--I barely knew him--he was a former student who I opened up to at some point and we have become very close, so a very "new" friend said this): "there are people in your life all around you, including me, who will restore what he has taken from you. You feel now you have this huge whole in your heart and all this love "gone", and all this trust "gone", but we will all restore this for you AND THEN SOME, because we want to."
That's what you have to have faith in now--other people.

I think a lot of us, if not all of us, had so much invested in our spouse that when the spouse suddenly stopped giving, we have become these empty shells. Well this is something WE NEED TO LEARN TO FIX.

We all need to learn the meaning of happiness, and happiness doesn't come from being so wrapped up in just one person, where it can be totally removed from our lives if that person stops paying attention to us or worse, is cruel to us. We all have to learn that happiness comes from within and from our connections to many.

You know these MLCers are on a journey and I guess many of them fail and never come out of it. But their journey pushes us into one too, and we have a lot to learn about ourselves. I think we're in a better position to get it "right" in the end than they are.

So this all happens for a reason, and in the end, you will be so much stronger and I think, happier, for it. It's impossible to see it now, but it's true. Keep the faith.

[Queen_of_Swords]

SC,

I'm so sorry you are going through this. I don't know if there is anything I can say to make the pain go away.

Thank you for your compassion and response and well wishes. At a certain point I think you have to cry until you can't cry anymore. I don't know I've hit that point quite yet.

I had a horrible day yesterday as well. I called my H and said Happy V Day and he didn't reply, I was so heart broken, the tears were flowing non-stop and I couldn't comprehend?

It's bewildering. I can't comprehend it either. It just doesn't compute.

I'm the mother of your children, strangers say it to each other why couldn’t he say it knowing it would simply put a smile on my face? I then did something even more stupid, went shopping with my friend for her b-friend and saw some sneakers my H would have loved and I text him a picture to see if he liked them so I can buy it for him, you know what I got NO REPLY! Then I found out he had gone all out for OW on Sunday for V-day, that broke me…it really did.

Mega OUCH! I'm so sorry I can only imagine the utter sense of betrayal to do that for another woman.

After yesterday I don’t know if I can ever forgive him and I decided to lay low and take some time for myself and decide what's best for me and my children. I think what you are doing is the only way we can seek comfort in our sitch. Our kids are a god send!

I understand your pain, I really do. I'm so sorry...

I appreciate your caring how I feel and your understanding.

[Truegritter]

Loving someone gets you nothing in return. It entitles you to nothing.

Being loved though...we all chase it, we all crave it, we all want to be loved. Paradox.

And how would you like to be loved?

Only when you are calm, quiet and peaceful and the love of someone is just some warm syrup to make you feel even more so?

When does love hold the most power? When does its mystery show itself?

It is time for me to share this with you:

The love we show isn't love at all. It's an exchange of giving and getting.

When

the person is with us we love them. As soon as they try to leave we despise them and curse them.

In all actuality we are doing what the WAS is doing - except in the completely opposite direction. They want to be happy. They do what they do looking for it.

When they leave, we are unhappy. We want them to come back so we can be happy.

And ....

When you do achieve detachment and you do understand that love is not what we get from another it is what you give without needing its return.

Then Let's just take the case that brought us all here.

Your H doesn't want the M.

At first you want to "get" them back. You want something and they want something different.

Maybe they are scared, confused or whatever and they think that the only way they can be loved like they want to be is to leave and have an A. Or find someone new.

Then
We grow and we understand.
And that is the journey of the LBS.

If we run away because they reject us are we any different?
You confirm to him that you did not really love him by this rejection because it is after all conditional.

You confirm for him the doubts he has about himself and you.
There is opportunity to express and communicate to your H that you love him more than just an exchange.

You have an opportunity to prove to yourself that you can love without those conditions.

That you are only expressing what you believe...

For a time long enough to where you can move on without anger or resentment.

That you are not a victim of someone who wouldn't give you what you wanted BUT Someone who has courage enough to express the best kind for love for her H.

To heal.

And during that time maybe, just maybe...

This expression of love has a chance to flourish and your H maybe understands this and your M is saved.

A possibility?

That you will love and honor them.

Honor means that if they want to divorce you then that is their choice.

How are you harmed if you are no longer attached to outcomes.

You are not holding on.

That takes effort.

That means you are trying to control.

You are GIVING away...
How would you want to be loved?
Only when you are peaceful and not scared?

Or

When you have lost your way and are so scared you run away?

This is not a point of black and white this is a process just as our growth is a lifelong process.

That requires constant experience, pain and correction.

The only lie is the one you tell yourself...

[handlingplanb]

I've been at this a very long time. I've been HERE for over 3 years. I can feel your pain. I still have pain that comes and goes - but it does come and go now. I don't have that mind-numbing all constant pain that I had in the beginning, the pain that you are experiencing now.

I KNOW that the only way you will feel better is if you detach, and do the time. It is not something that can be rushed, and EVERYONE is different. Live for yourself. Let him go. I still "stand" for my marriage because it is still right for me. I am not standing still. I am living for me and for my kids. There really is no other choice right now.

You are in so much pain and are experiencing so much anger right now that you can't hear what those that have been here much longer are telling you. Read and re-read and process. Learn and KNOW that this time is for YOU.

[Spirit]

I have read the MLC resources.
I can't understand how someone could hurt so many people for their own selfish reasons.
I can't understand why they wouldn't get the help they need.
I can't understand why family is so unimportant.
I don't even know if he's worth the tears I've shed, the words I've spoken or the energy I have invested.

What a waste. What an effin' waste.

I was an MLC'er
They can't understand either. There mind is a jumbled mess. Getting through a day is a struggle.
I tried to help myself but the process is long.
Nobody is important. just surviving living another day is an accomplishment.
No when they are in MLC they are not worth the tears.
It is like someone else is living your life. You are in a complete fog. you know some of the things you are doing is wrong but you don't have the energy or awareness to fight it.
I still ask why many days that the mind can take you there but I don't have the answer. Pleas take care of yourself and understand it is not you.

[Queen_of_Swords]

Loving someone gets you nothing in return. It entitles you to nothing.

Being loved though...we all chase it, we all crave it, we all want to be loved. Paradox.

And how would you like to be loved?
Authentically, unconditionally warmly, affectionately, sexually.

Only when you are calm, quiet and peaceful and the love of someone is just some warm syrup to make you feel even more so?

That's contentment, and peace of mind, not necessarily love.

When does love hold the most power? When does its mystery show itself? In adversity.

It is time for me to share this with you:

The love we show isn't love at all. It's an exchange of giving and getting.

When

the person is with us we love them. As soon as they try to leave we despise them and curse them.

In all actuality we are doing what the WAS is doing - except in the completely opposite direction. They want to be happy. They do what they do looking for it.

When they leave, we are unhappy. We want them to come back so we can be happy.

Happy is at best a fleeting thing in my experience. Sometimes it pops up like violets among the crabgrass. I do not want him back so I can be happy. That was never in his power anyway. .

And ....

When you do achieve detachment and you do understand that love is not what we get from another it is what you give without needing its return.

That's not what I've been taught I've been taught that one sided love is not love at all. It is obsession and unhealthy for the giver, you can't build a bridge from one side.

Then Let's just take the case that brought us all here.

Your H doesn't want the M.

He just doesn't want the marriage. He doesn't want me, he doesn't want our family, he wants nothing WE have to offer. Yes you can say it's his loss, but we are the ones left feeling loss acutely.

At first you want to "get" them back. You want something and they want something different.

Maybe they are scared, confused or whatever and they think that the only way they can be loved like they want to be is to leave and have an A. Or find someone new.

Then
We grow and we understand.
And that is the journey of the LBS.

If we run away because they reject us are we any different?

What's the point in staying then? You're rejected and unwanted. Your love isn't valued, YOU aren't valued. You don't reject them, you just cease putting your attention and energy there and fade to black.

You confirm to him that you did not really love him by this rejection because it is after all conditional.

I understand what you're saying here.

I have a hard time with it, because it's clear that HIS love was entirely conditional, and when it got too hard, and he was unahappy with some of the things I did or said he didn't even let me know until it was far too late to DO anything about it, he didn't even trust me with his heart enough to tell me.

My love is unconditional, I do love him, I always will. He's lovable. He is a kind, gentle,funny,smart, courteous, loving and generous man.

His behaviour and choices stink.

I'm not stone, I'm not a saint. I'm a living, breathing woman. I can love him all my life, but now he's gone and he intends to divorce me. When that's done, it will mean I'm no part of his life anymore except in a peripheral sense, it will also mean any love and warmth I hold for him matters not AT ALL.

It doesn't mean my vows meant nothing to me. I meant them, but the convenant and bond is broken by H. It was a promise between TWO people, it wasn't meant to be maintained alone by one indefinitely.

It also doesn't mean I will do without the love of a man for me until and IF he decides to return to me.
I deserve love, affection, protection, and trust too.

You confirm for him the doubts he has about himself and you.
There is opportunity to express and communicate to your H that you love him more than just an exchange.

You have an opportunity to prove to yourself that you can love without those conditions.
I have and do love him through this all, did the best I knew how and I would not be working so hard even now I give and continue to give my all...but at some point, maybe even today, that won't be enough and I will cease to work for something that hasn't got a chance in hades of flourishing.

That you are only expressing what you believe...

For a time long enough to where you can move on without anger or resentment.

That you are not a victim of someone who wouldn't give you what you wanted BUT Someone who has courage enough to express the best kind for love for her H.

To heal.

And during that time maybe, just maybe...

This expression of love has a chance to flourish and your H maybe understands this and your M is saved.

A possibility?

The slimmest of possibilities. For a person that's got an all or nothing mindset, this is difficult. It either is possible, or not possible, and this slim reed of maybe equates in my mind to hopeless.

That you will love and honor them.
I love him, I respect him, I honor him.

Honor means that if they want to divorce you then that is their choice.

Yes and regardless I will have to live with that choice and without him.

How are you harmed if you are no longer attached to outcomes.

Not attached = don't care - feel nothing - love is dead.

You are not holding on.

That takes effort.

That means you are trying to control.

This is so not in my hands. I can't control him, his choices, his behaviour. I am not general manager of the universe, I gave that up a while ago.

You are GIVING away...
How would you want to be loved?
Only when you are peaceful and not scared?

Or

When you have lost your way and are so scared you run away?

When you run away, no amount of love that's given to you can help you, you've also abandoned and run from it. You've also tried to run from yourself.
We who do love can't chase you either.


This is not a point of black and white this is a process just as our growth is a lifelong process.

That requires constant experience, pain and correction.

The only lie is the one you tell yourself...

Oh I so disagree with you here. We've been told and taught so many lies, finding the truth is like running a complicated maze.


Lest you think I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing with you Truegritter, I'm not. This is how my thought process is working (or not working) right now. I am a mess.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Scylla,

I am sorry for your pain. I am sorry that you feel so much despair right now.

I have two points to make.

People care about you, and people do love you.
Maybe not him right now, if it is MLC he isn't capable.

If I was taught that 2 + 2 = 5...
I am not saying that you are wrong as in my obvious example above, I am just saying that what we are taught is not always correct...or that we can learn new things.
There are only a few concrete things out there with solid answers, math is one of them.

[Truegritter]

Authentically, unconditionally warmly, affectionately, sexually.

What does unconditionally mean?

That's not what I've been taught I've been taught that one sided love is not love at all. It is obsession and unhealthy for the giver, you can't build a bridge from one side.

We have been taught lots of things in our life and it is the disapointment of what we were taught to be true that is the source of a lot of discontent in M.

There is a R called codependent when one perosn becomes intwined in the total welfare of another THAT is unhealthy.

By your definition Jesus was unhealthy.

If you give love and expect it to return some value to you then you WILL suffer.

What's the point in staying then? You're rejected and unwanted. Your love isn't valued, YOU aren't valued. You don't reject them, you just cease putting your attention and energy there and fade to black.

So you rely on someone else to value how much your love is worth. What is it worth to you? Only what you can trade it for?

it will also mean any love and warmth I hold for him matters not AT ALL.

Only if you choose to see it that way.

When you run away, no amount of love that's given to you can help you, you've also abandoned and run from it. You've also tried to run from yourself.
We who do love can't chase you either.

I thought you said you gave up being general manager of the universe?

Do you know what he is thinking and feeling? Does it really matter if it reaches him right now or later. When he decides to see you differently. What matters is YOUR choice. So don't do it for him

Do it becuase it is what you believe and value. Part of this, the most important part Scylla, is figuring out what that is for you.

Then the mystery disolves. The paradox is solved.

Becuase when you know that you cannot fail.

Oh I so disagree with you here. We've been told and taught so many lies, finding the truth is like running a complicated maze.
Lest you think I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing with you Truegritter, I'm not. This is how my thought process is working (or not working) right now. I am a mess.

See previous entry.

I am not here to argue the origin of the universe Scylla.

I am here to guide you along a path that we who take the time to give back here have walked.

And you know how I know what I am telling you is the truth?

Becuase when you get to the end of your journey or at least this part of it you know that there is no other answer.

The people posting to you helped me to learn it. and unlearn all the false thinking that kept me from the knowledge of my own truth.

Know this. You will not see it until you let your anger and resentment go. Until you understand your love is worth the most when it costs nothing.

THAT is indeed a different way of thinking.

[Queen_of_Swords]

Authentically, unconditionally warmly, affectionately, sexually.

What does unconditionally mean?

For me unconditionally means to love someone for themselves. Their essence.
Not in what they can do for you ( although the 5 love langues are about showing and living that love daily.)

That's not what I've been taught I've been taught that one sided love is not love at all. It is obsession and unhealthy for the giver, you can't build a bridge from one side.

We have been taught lots of things in our life and it is the disapointment of what we were taught to be true that is the source of a lot of discontent in M.

True enough.

There is a R called codependent when one perosn becomes intwined in the total welfare of another THAT is unhealthy.

Yes, and I admit our relationship was one of co-dependancy on both our parts.

By your definition Jesus was unhealthy.

Yes, in the end it killed him.

If you give love and expect it to return some value to you then you WILL suffer.

What's the point in staying then? You're rejected and unwanted. Your love isn't valued, YOU aren't valued. You don't reject them, you just cease putting your attention and energy there and fade to black.

So you rely on someone else to value how much your love is worth. What is it worth to you? Only what you can trade it for?

The love I have to give is a gift of inestimable value. For the person that does not want it, it is valueless, and then my evaluation only holds true for me.

it will also mean any love and warmth I hold for him matters not AT ALL.

Only if you choose to see it that way.

Let me rephrase that, it doesn't matter to him at all. Why would it?

When you run away, no amount of love that's given to you can help you, you've also abandoned and run from it. You've also tried to run from yourself.
We who do love can't chase you either.

I thought you said you gave up being general manager of the universe?

Yep. Which is why I don't chase. Which is why I let out my pain, confusion and grief here.
As much as I want to fix this, as much as I want to heal his pain, as much as I have the ability and resources to help him...in chasing he only runs harder, not realising it isn't me he fears. God can help him, or another fearless independant third party. I cannot.

Do you know what he is thinking and feeling? Does it really matter if it reaches him right now or later. When he decides to see you differently. What matters is YOUR choice. So don't do it for him

No Truegritter, I don't know what he thinks or feels. He is not transparent or trusting of me. He hides behinds walls of silence and indifference.
I think the fact I have changed and I am different since he met and married that young, fresh thing I was, scares him more than anything. He taken my preferred choices away Truegritter.
All that's left is to stand and fight and make this difficult and painful for us both in the divorce courts, or to aquiesce to what he wants and make things easy.

Do it becuase it is what you believe and value. Part of this, the most important part Scylla, is figuring out what that is for you.

Working on it, and I am at war with myself much of the time because of the hard questions you ask. It would be much easier to close this door, and pretend and act as if he's dead to me.

Then the mystery disolves. The paradox is solved.

Becuase when you know that you cannot fail.

Oh I so disagree with you here. We've been told and taught so many lies, finding the truth is like running a complicated maze.
Lest you think I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing with you Truegritter, I'm not. This is how my thought process is working (or not working) right now. I am a mess.

See previous entry.

I am not here to argue the origin of the universe Scylla.

I am here to guide you along a path that we who take the time to give back here have walked.

I appreciate that, and I have come to an incomplete undertanding of sorts. There is a flicker at the edge of my awareness that has yet to become fully bright.

And you know how I know what I am telling you is the truth?

You have personal experience in this department. I don't know it's the truth, but it is what you know in YOUR heart, that's enough for me.

Becuase when you get to the end of your journey or at least this part of it you know that there is no other answer.

The people posting to you helped me to learn it. and unlearn all the false thinking that kept me from the knowledge of my own truth.

Know this. You will not see it until you let your anger and resentment go. Until you understand your love is worth the most when it costs nothing.

THAT is indeed a different way of thinking.

I will meditate on this Truegritter. For now I don't completely understand it.

[nic1]

Antonia and True - Such words of wisdom. Thank you for sharing these.