I'm a bit desperate on the ML issues, any advice would be helpful. I haven't been able to talk to my female IC/MC about this (too embarrassed~)
Last night, despite going to our first Retrouvaille post weekend session, W kind of got me back by saying out of the blue that she thinks I'm handsome, but she isn't attracted to me. I had said that to her at our lowest point, and while it was true and partly still is, I've only started to feel love for her this week. Honestly - I wasn't physically or emotionally connected when we married (arranged).
I can't say I believed her - seemed more like her release of some hurt. I purposely tried to fully immerse myself in the moment, so that I could better empathize with how she felt when I said what I said. My response was to ask what she felt was unattractive. I'm too tall, too big, beard shape isn't just right, that kind of stuff. I then told her I would work on my beard and continue working on slimming down more (20 lbs to go while trying to build muscle). I then told her that I felt she may be saying this because she feels hurt. I "clarified" that now with my love growing, I am finding her body more and more attractive.
She flip flops with her ideas so much that I just brushed it under the carpet for a future dialogue, if at all. It doesn't get rid of her core problem from where it came.
The way she sees it, if I am attracted to her and am not wishing to be ML with a porn star, then I would want more sex. So, she feels that when we ML Friday night (before the session), that the moments of "softness" on my part showed that I wasn't able to get it going for her cause she's not attractive enough.
Facts: - Never had sex except with her - "Self-pleasuring" in private kept me going as love & attraction were not there for her, as well as because I didn't want more children. She either didn't want birth control, or she didn't like them. For me, the protection was too tight for me to use and keep going, so I couldn't use it. M was nearly sexless for the last 4 yrs, and 3-4x/month for the rest - Until I began DB stuff, I thought she didn't like sex very much as it was hard for me to get her there. I've found out her love language is touch... - Sex, when we have done it, has often been OK, with rare great moments as she got too wet for friction. - W wasn't OK with much foreplay, but that only made it harder for me to get her there.
So, basically, when we were trying to ML on Friday as has been the case in the past, it is hard for me to stay hard if I'm there's an action gap. She interprets this as an attraction gap.
Questions...
-- Does anyone think she's right? Is going semi during sex unusual?
-- Is visual attraction needed (not emotional) during sex? When alone, I know I don't have the softenss prob, but then my mind always has something to visualize then. I can get errect for her, just not stay that way for 20-30 minutes. I'd go for meds, but that wouldn't solve her concern - that I don't love her body enough to keep it up.
-- If sexual touch is how she interprets my love for her, is this a no win?
-- We are beginning to work toward a point where I can end our D plans, but my softness led her to say she thinks we should separate. This, despite major growth of our R in Retrouvaille (I found romantic love for her for the FIRST time in our M). Should I tell her no more sex till D is off the table? That was the plan, and by our religion it is a requirement for D, but she has found it hard to not have sex. I'm too afraid to take it off the table until I know my love isn't a passing fad - one week of love is the most powerful and unexpected feeling I've ever had!
I followed you here. No, softness is not in anyway related to how you think of her. It is a physiological thing. I once had a boyfriend who was extremely turned on by me, thought I was a goddess of some sort. But for some reason, some days his body just didn't cooperate. I was careful to not blame him in any way. It's a matter of the blood vessels. Perhaps she could help to keep you stimulated physically so you don't experience a "break in the action". Whatever you do, don't take sex off the table. Sex will bring you closer to your wife. And if she wants it, so much the better. What you don't use, you lose. And sex in a marriage is often the first thing to get lost. Once it is gone, it is next to impossible to bring it back. It should never be a bargaining chip, for any reason. You would not say "I won't eat food until you stop talking about D." Why would you say it about sex?
I'm a bit desperate on the ML issues, any advice would be helpful. I haven't been able to talk to my female IC/MC about this (too embarrassed~)
....The way she sees it, if I am attracted to her and am not wishing to be ML with a porn star, then I would want more sex. So, she feels that when we ML Friday night (before the session), that the moments of "softness" on my part showed that I wasn't able to get it going for her cause she's not attractive enough.
....For me, the protection was too tight for me to use and keep going, so I couldn't use it.
....- Until I began DB stuff, I thought she didn't like sex very much as it was hard for me to get her there. I've found out her love language is touch...
...So, basically, when we were trying to ML on Friday .... it is hard for me to stay hard if I'm there's an action gap. She interprets this as an attraction gap.
Questions...
-- Does anyone think she's right? Is going semi during sex unusual?
....-- If sexual touch is how she interprets my love for her, is this a no win?
-- We are beginning to work toward a point where I can end our D plans, but my softness led her to say she thinks we should separate.
...Should I tell her no more sex till D is off the table? That was the plan, and by our religion it is a requirement for D, but she has found it hard to not have sex. I'm too afraid to take it off the table until I know my love isn't a passing fad - one week of love is the most powerful and unexpected feeling I've ever had!
Any ideas or thoughts would be appreciated.
I do have a few ideas and wish you and your wife luck and renewed love. I am glad that you have found romantic love for your wife. That is wonderful and the two of you should celibrate that by doing something together you both enjoy.
First, count your blessings, you have a wife who now says she likes sex with you. That is fabulous, now you just need how to figure out how to make that really work for the two of you.
Second, your counselor has heard it all, and that includes the most abusive, degrading things that one partner can ask or do to another. She won't bat an eye over what you want to talk about. Don't be embarrassed asking her to help referee a topic, just because it makes you feel uncomfortable. Man-up and ask for her help in discussing things. If you need to start by saying that in a previous session you weren't brave enough to discuss something, but because of the love you have recently felt for your wife you would like to talk about something, but want to be heard before anyone says anything that might hurt you. You will be given a full and quiet audience. Now go out there and fight for your marriage, by speaking up.
Personally, I prefer not to wear a condom (actually for the silly romantic reason of truly becoming one with my wife's body-even after our bodies have separated), but when I needed to use a condom in the past with my wife (for birth control reasons), I liked to buy the smallest/tightest condom I could find. The reason is that it can become sort of like a "cock-ring" that helps maintain an erection. Tight can be good if you mentally accept it and realize the wonderful benefits it can provide you. Think of the tightness as your wife squeezing you in a most loving and intimate way. That tightness can mean that after I climax with a really tight condom on that I have a few extra moments of being erect and within my wife for cuddling and intimacy, prior to shrinking away and out of my wife or needing to pull out to prevent a spill. It can also help keep an erection that may be partially lost and allow time to get the fire going again. Many internet sites and sex stores or condom stores have a huge variety of condoms and sizes. You might try something that is really really small just as an experiment. There was one I use to look for that was called the mamba (they have them at drugstore.com)
As to are you right or is your wife right....there is no right and wrong there is only what the two of you find best for you. What I know about my wife is that she wants me also to be aroused when I make love to her. If I loose my "focus" she claims that she can tell and that it makes it harder for her to enjoy my touching her, as she feels that I am mechanically doing her rather than the two of us ML. She has said that the rythm of my touch and the intensity of my touch changes in a way that she can feel.
You might talk to your wife about what specifically it is that she feels is different when you loose your full erection, is it that or is it the way that you touch her. If she senses your loss of focus, ask her to help keep you at a boil by saying things (talking dirty, giving you verbal stimulation or creating verbal images) or by touching you in ways that keep you going (feather light touch on sensitive areas, squeezing other sensitive areas, perhaps scratching with her nails light or not so light, running her fingers through you hair, holding you tight, putting her breasts in your face, what every turns you on.) After all, marriage and ML should be a team project.
Speaking of mechanical, if your wife will allow you to bring a vibrator into your marriage bed with you, those mechanical toys may not loose their focus (assuming plug-in or fresh batteries) and she may be overwhelmed on that sensation and not really care about how firm you are. It is also something to discuss with her and/or the therapist.
I am a real fan of the 5 Languages of Love by Chapman and feel it helped save my marriage. Just because your wife's primary language is touch, doesn't mean it has to be sex. Touch can include footrubs, back massage, butt/thigh massage, head massage, kissing, cuddling, and a whole host of things. I have read a bunch of books on reflexology (foot, hand, head and ear massage) and it is almost overwhelming. I also have read some interesting books on both couples sensual massage and erotic massage. While touch can include sex, it doesn't need to. You can make your wife feel loved in her language of love (touch) by things other than having sex with her.
As to taking sex off the table, that is a complex question. Personally, I would (and did) only as a last resort and then in the form of a 180. For a woman, one of whose primary languages of love is touch, I would think that taking sex off the table could really make her potentially feel unloved, so I would recommend against it.
It sounds like your Retrouvaille weekend was a great experience for the two of you. It sounds like you have discovered a romantic love for your wife. It sounds like the two of you are now having sex together and that the act of sex is also making love between you. All of those are wonderful things.
What it sounds like is that your wife is wanting a situation that is creating a potential for performance aniety and you are feeling that and afraid of failing to perform up to her expectations. I am sure if you say that to your marriage counselor, she will recognize what is happening and give you some good advice and maybe help you and your wife figure out how she can either take a more active role in the success of her orgasmic experience, help discuss some mechanical options or at least have your wife assume a role that helps to actively encourage you.
Good luck and congratulations on your relationship. Focus one the progress, and the rest may come along and work itself out.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Lotus: thanks for following and offering some needed advice, as always. Lots going on in my head to think about - I wish work would take care of itself for a month or two so I could put my effort where it wants to be.
Originally Posted By: Young at Heart
She has said that the rythm of my touch and the intensity of my touch changes in a way that she can feel.
That's exactly what I've heard. Myself, I tell her that I was fully with her, but she feels that I must be thinking about other women. She figures that if I've been doing it solo, then what was I imagnining while I did it? So if she isn't enough, I should move on. I've told her that I WANT to be with her, and feel the need to touch her. This isn't enough, she says. I wish I could see if this was one of her "tests" of me or some junk feelings from the past.
I feel like I need to walk up to the most beautiful babe, pull it out, and tell my W - see, nothing! I'm looking to be with you!
Of course, then I'd be in jail morally and physically, so I best not (:
Quote:
It sounds like your Retrouvaille weekend was a great experience for the two of you.
It was for me. For her, not so much. I thought at first she was doing well. Now, I'm less sure. The sexuality issue has been a real problem it seems, as she feels that I don't want to be with her physically. A kind of jealousy I guess.
She has said that the rythm of my touch and the intensity of my touch changes in a way that she can feel.
That's exactly what I've heard. Myself, I tell her that I was fully with her, but she feels that I must be thinking about other women. She figures that if I've been doing it solo, then what was I imagnining while I did it? So if she isn't enough, I should move on.
OK, her expectations, while not fair and could create anxiety or performance problems for you, they are still her expectations and you need to deal with them.
I was suggest a couple of alternatives.
First when you are stimulating her, focus on your lust for her, whether it is saying verbally or mentally how much you really want to F**K her and make her climax doesn't really matter as long as it helps you and doesn't distract her. You might even try to figure out how to turn it into a kind of "sensate focus" exercise for yourself where you mentally focus on your lust for you wife and keep that image/desire firmly in the front of all your thoughts along with how great it feels to touch her.
Second, introduce a vibrator to your bedroom activities. My wife freaked out over the noise of one vibrator, so I went out and purchased one that is QUIET. Through communication figure out what she can handle and what she needs, then provide it.
To my wife the most important thing is feeling loved in her love languages (acts of service and quality time). Then after she feels "connected to me" by my having done things for her that she wants done (various household chores and such) and by my having given her quality time (conversations at dinner, taking her out to dinner our out to a movie) she is more open to touching and sex. Generally touching comes next and when she is connected and arroused by non-sexual touch, then she is ready for sex. (Actually she has told me that it is only then that she is ever realy to talk about her innermost thought regarding sex and our relationship. She said she needs to feel totally connected to me before she can talk to me about our relationship problems. Talk about the ultimate Catch-22!)
I have been ammazed at what a 30 to 40 minute foot massage using reflexology and asking if touching this part of the foot feels better than this other part of the foot and then five minutes later if she would like me to increase of the pressure, reduced the pressure or keep it where it is. She has told me that it makes her feel like I am reallly into her pleasure and finding out what pleases her the most. Yes, it is a damn long time, but saving my marriage is worth some sacrifices.
At times my wife really does expect me to focus on her non-sexual pleasure for say half an hour or more and then start foreplay for another fifteen minutes to half an hour prior to direct genital stimulation and sex. At times I have asked myself if I really have that much time to give to her and the answer is, yes I love her and want our marriage to succeed, but such time commitments obviously limit when we can make love.
Originally Posted By: Onthemountaintop
Quote:
It sounds like your Retrouvaille weekend was a great experience for the two of you.
It was for me. For her, not so much. I thought at first she was doing well. Now, I'm less sure. The sexuality issue has been a real problem it seems, as she feels that I don't want to be with her physically. A kind of jealousy I guess.
If you think this is your core issue, try putting yourself into her shoes.
One of the things I learned at a Gottman Institute weekend was that until you can explain a problem as well as your spouse, you really don't understand it well enough to try to negotiate a solution.
So what is it that your wife means when she tells you that "she feels that you don't want to be with her physically?" She is drawing her observations from something. Is it your lack of errection at times, or is there something else she has also commented on that to her is another sign you don't want to be with her physically? Are there other comments.
Has she given you a dozen or so signs that to her you don't want to be with her physically. If so, maybe you need to focus on each one and then figure out how to convince her by "actions" not words that you do want to be with her physically. Once you have figured some of these out, and tried ways of being "physically with her" whether by spending quality time with her (and not multi-tasking by watching TV while you talk to her - one of my sins or staying home at least one weekend day and planning something to do together as a couple)or you figure out rituals to be physically close to her (hug her each day on leaving, each day when you get home, and each night just prior to going to sleep --- Review of Gottman Course--scroll till bottom and 5 magic hours/week section P.S. Gottman now says it is 5.5hrs/week)
Where there any suggested exercises, rituals or other things to draw the two of you physically closer from the Retrouvaille weekend from your wifes pespective? Have you asked her what things you could do that would make her feel she is physically closer to you? (May be if she says she is unsure ask if you could try the leaving, arriveing, going to sleep rituals?)
Again, good luck and consider yourself lucky that she is not refusing to have sex with you.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Is bad sex worse than less frequent sex? After we reconcilled, things were good to excellent. Now, it is more frequent but also not very good. W is affected when she feels I'm not in it. So...reduce for quality silently or talk it out with her, risking a reaction?
My perspective is that a starving man will eat just about anything to survive (some of the survival TV shows where folks eat bugs, worms, etc.).
Using that analogy, a SSM partner will prefer bad sex to no sex, as long as it isn't emotionally damaging you or your spouse.
However, as human beings we can work our our skills and inspire those of our partner to go from bad to good, to great to (maybe if we are lucky) extraordinary. I am a real believer in TQM and the process of continuous improvement. Sometimes rather than talking about what we don't like, we need to focus on what we do like and praise that as a way of improving things.
Good Luck!
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Right now, sex is daily. It is also just OK. I think it is just too often to get enough attraction for her. I find her attractive emotionally and a bit physically. Time seems to build desire.
So should I back her off a bit and reduce frequency so I can build attraction? She equates passion with love, so I think I'm screwed (pardon the pun) either way!
I posted this on a different thread, but I was wondering if anyone here has any thoughts...
OK...confession time.
God forgive me, I know it to be sinful and harmful to the people making it, but I have developed a "partial" porn addiction that started when I was 12 (no joke, 12). Over the years, my faith has brought me away for 6 months, but being nearly sexless for 4 years made it worse. I don't pay for it, and always feel a great deal of post-guilt, but I have begun the first steps towards getting pro help. Remember, please don't judge me. I do that enough. I've never had sex with anyone else. It was "just" the visuals.
So I've tried letting her know: - I'm in a culture that is OK with occasional use (depending on the couple), but I know it should be never used - There is a religious belief of ours that if a sin is between you and God, it can be forgiven through true and full repentence, even if the sin is repeated. This means honestly trying to stop. The fear of the repercussions of that admission to someone who dresses modestly seemed too high for me. Being near D and having found love for her, I felt I needed to get this out. Turns out, she knew from our 1st year, and didn't want to rock the boat. Instead, she punished me without me knowing why. Obviously, I can't be angry with her for not confonting me & secretly punishing me when my problem was much less frequent. I was in sin, she was just confused about how to solve the prob. - I decided that instead of D when our sex life sucked from her physical issues, pregnancies, etc (most of our 11yrs) that I resigned myself to supplementing rather than leave her over one part of a good marriage being insignificant - I let her know that my attraction issues may partly stem from this. In fact, my lack of attraction almost let me back to porn when I had reduced it to 1/6months. That's a secret I'll never be planning to share! Despite porn using plasticized and brushed up models, I don't only see size D as attractive. I'm not going to go through all the things that I don't find attractive in her, but if I was asked when I was 12 before I started my addiction if I found her attractive, I am sure I would've said 'not very much'. - Despite the porn in secret, I've always tried ot be open on things that do attract me with her clothes and stuff, but she just didn't care until I told her. Now, I feel punished by my revelation. Now, if I see anyone else, she feels worse. I don't get it...she knew all along while I thought she didn't. She lived with that awful feeling. Now that I admitted it and accepted getting pro help, she expects miracles right away. - I told her that when I couldn't get really attracted to her when we first got married and I had my first sex experiences with her, I even wondered if I was gay! I remember times looking at women in porn to check that I wasn't~~
I know she's hurt. Those sexual admissions were the hardest one I had to ever say. But I did it for one reason - to make sure I had no barriers between us and so that she could help me stop...so I could love her & her body more.
BTW - except for her, our divorce mediator who last week set us up with the doc to help, I've told no one (until now!)
Ya, I screwed up. I'd argue that my body going sexual at 11, porn beginning at 12, I had a real devil living with me.
But what can I do now? I'm getting help, I've always felt guilty, I've always asked God for forgiveness, I've asked her for forgiveness which she verbally gave, but...it was only a glance!
I know the answers to some of these questions, I guess I needed to get this off my (hairless - ouch!) chest before meeting the sex doc.
I am fairly new with these things, but a few ideas come to mind. The first is that, if you haven't read His Needs Her Needs, one of the needs that some people have to feel love towards their spouse is physical attraction. Are there things that your wife can do to make herself more attractive to you, (lose, or gain weight, shower every day, make up every day, etc?) These things are not shallow, they are serious, and if you can safely communicate this to your wife, and she is on board to making changes, then that may help. Another is, never hide your passion while you are ML! If you realize it in your head, allow it to come out and show it, even if it is just small steps.
