Don't Let Them Eat Cake

[In Limbo]

I think my last thread locked and I haven't posted in quite some time. To be honest, I just got so discouraged. I hated reading what I'd written, all the ups and downs and discouragement. I hated seeing how even after some time had passed I still had not detached and was still not successfully implementing DB. So I took some time off the board and then came back on mostly to read for a while. Now I think it's time to post and get back to getting support from and providing support to others going through what I'm going through.

I've attempted to post a link to my last two threads and hope that has worked. Had trouble getting them into my signature, so I'll keep working on that.

InLimbo's 1st Post

InLimbo's 2nd Post

So, where are things today? I've had some fun over the past month going to visit family, going to a concert with girlfriends, working out and next week I start a DivorceCare bible study. I don't cry as much and am being a much better mom with my emotions more under control. That's the positives.

On the other side of the coin, had a terrible MC session with H where I threw DB out the window and confronted him with all the stuff about the EA that I have confirmed and told him that it's too cruel for him to want OW, buy stuff for OW then come home to our house, lay in our bed, ML to me, etc. I hit my breaking point and let it all out.

He was so angry he said he wanted to move out and threw his wedding ring and hasn't worn it since. He told me if I'd leave town for the weekend with the kids that he would move out. I did leave town that weekend and the next as well. Guess what? He didn't move out. Then he said he wanted to move to the basement to save $. But he didn't. As of last night he was still in our bed, but things have gotten progressively more tense and last night he got mad and went to the guest room.

I want a good M with H, but as I think over our past, I'm not sure that's possible. He has never nor does he ever plan to forgive me for stuff going back 20 years. He says he can't forgive people, never has been able to. His heart is so hardened and festering with resentment and unforgiveness that I'm not sure he can love himself or truly love anyone else.

I want to stand for M, but I think he's cake eating. So, I think what's best right now is to encourage him to move to the basement until he can find an apartment so he can be on his own and see if it's what he really wants and I can get on with my life. Right now he's still too much in control - being there when he wants and not when he doesn't, no responsibility for kids, having laundry done by me, bills paid by me, meals prepared by me, etc., etc. Other than work, he has no responsibilities at all right now.

Anyone have thoughts on how to keep a PMA, not discuss R and yet stop cake eating and get H to leave?

[Andabelle]

Maybe stop being his maid? Easy for me to say, I know.

He doesn't want to/won't admit it, but he needs your forgiveness WAYYYYYY more than you need his.

Did he not realize you knew about OW before the MC session?

[In Limbo]

Andabelle,

Thanks for posting! I guess my problem with forgiveness is if he really can't ever give it (and this is not new to MLC, it's just now fully coming to light), then is there really any hope for reconciliation? I do forgive him and could forgive everything he's done. My belief is that by not forgiving, you're only hurting yourself.

He knew I knew about OW before the MC session (I found emails/chats between them a couple of months ago). But he didn't know that I had proof they were still very much in contact, that he was buying stuff for her, etc. He continues to insist that there is nothing "inappropriate" about the relationship even though he "loves" her and just the night before had bought her a $150 bracelet that he is adding charms to. He even had it out verbally with the C when he called him on his lies. While the lack of forgiveness is not new, the lying is SO out of character for him. MLC is truly an illness.

I've already let all of his dry cleaning just pile up. He's going to run out of shirts soon, but I've told him where the cleaners is located so I'm not doing anything else about it. I'm tempted to start letting his laundry just pile up too, but it just seems so petty, you know?

[foreverhesaid]

Dear Limbo,

I am in a similar situation in which my husband still sees the OW about twice a month. He thinks that I don't know this, but I did find out by snooping. Dont' know if its just driving me crazy more to know what is going on. It is very difficult to live in the same house, sometimes I think it is harder than when the MLC spouse leaves. (harder for us, because we are confronted by them and their behavior every day). Harder to GAL and maintain that PMA because we all get used to routines. I am trying to reconcile myself to this by thinking this way:
If he is here, at least that is more time that I can directly influence his words and actions. If he is still here, it means that on some level (the sane hidden one?) that he still wants the marriage. I have only been DB-ing for past two months, and have noticed positive changes. I would suggest doing normal things, but not going out of your way. Such as, if you are doing laundry anyway, throw his clothes in. However, don't try to fix his favorite foods. The DB idea is to 'be their friend' but not portray desperation. I hope things work out for you and your marriage.

[Dawn of Hope]

IL,
My H stayed at home (and in our bed, although there was nothing interesting happening there) for over a year after the bomb, all while seeing OW about twice a month (she is a college student half of his/my age, living five hours away, whom he met on the online game Second Life); he spent about 10% of his pre-tax income on her that year, which didn't stop him complaining about the state of our finances. Six months ago he moved out, and I still don't know where he lives. I am totally dark, and don't contact him other than in response to him contacting me, which is on business-related matters about once a month.

This is background to help you understand where I'm coming from with my suggestions to you. I don't have so much as a hint of a restored M as yet, but I feel deep down that there's very little that I have done since the bomb that has made things worse, and the current state is the best I could hope for right now. I think my H is just going to take a long, long time to get through this, and all I can do is to leave him alone to figure it out, and to avoid prolonging the process by anything I might do.

A number of people in RL, including friends, my IC, and even my pastor, encouraged me to kick H out the door (or at least issue an ultimatum) after I found out he was having an A, but I prayed about it a lot and felt that I was not called to do that. Many logical reasons backed up my feelings that God was telling me not to take that step; the main one was that I strongly sensed that H was looking for excuses to say that the wreck of our marriage, and the attendant consequences (such as separation), weren't his fault, and if I had pushed him to move out (even though it was excruciating to have to pretend everything was fine every day when I saw him), I would have played right into that, and then he could have said, "Well, SHE wanted me to move out," so he wouldn't look like the bad guy. I simply refused to cave in to all his provocation (like when he brought the OW to our house to sleep with him while I was out of town), so he was forced to make that decision all by himself and couldn't blame me.

I have seen that things are better if you do what you can to be kind and friendly, even if he isn't interested in being friends. Sometimes it helps to think of him as a stranger...you might not go out of your way, but you'd be kind to a stranger who was a guest in your house, even if he was some kind of sales person (as long as he wasn't being seriously rude or pushy), right? You might not be in friendship-building mode, but the first step is to reduce the negative feelings between the two of you. Consistency is also very important. If you blow it, and blow up at him or something else that is not fostering positive interactions, it will take you a lot of time just to regain that ground, much less move forward. Remember...BE THE GREENER GRASS!

I DB'd like crazy after I found the DB books and then the site, about a month post-bomb. I stopped criticizing H for anything whatsoever (at least to his face...you can be sure I had plenty to say to my trusted counselors and to my journal!). I didn't go overboard, but I was kind and considerate. I still did his laundry and cooked for him (although I didn't go out of my way to make special meals for him or anything), and listened to him complain about all the bills without ever pointing out that there wouldn't be nearly as many if he would stop spending $1000s on hotel bills and restaurant meals and flowers and plus-sized lingerie (OW is roughly twice my weight...even before I lost over 20 pounds on the MLC diet and got down to a size 2). I didn't ask him for anything except absolutely necessary computer support (his profession; it seemed stupid to consider going elsewhere for that) and household maintenance that I was unable to handle by myself. I didn't spend any of his income on anything unless he suggested it. Otherwise I only spent from my own income, even though I was buying all the household's groceries and basic household supplies and expenses for our three cats and my own medical expenses, even though my own income is/was below the poverty level.

I'm not a saint, by any stretch of the imagination. In the beginning, I snooped obsessively. I wasn't proud of it, it didn't make me feel good, and it didn't endear me to him whenever he found out. I started feeling better about myself after I forced myself to stop (with great difficulty). I haven't succeeded in forgiving him yet, although I have been working hard on that, and we haven't discussed the prospect at all. (I'm hearing "I don't know if I can ever forgive you for what you've done do me over the last 20 years" too, but there's no discussion of any need for me to forgive HIM.)

One of the many concepts from DB that I have found helpful is the idea of becoming a person that H would have to be _crazy_ to leave. I have done a lot of internal work (emotional/spiritual) on myself, and I have a long way to go (sometimes I think that's why I've had no signs of restoration yet--_I'm_ not ready!). I'm also working on improving my income (one of H's more concrete complaints).

As painful as it undoubtedly is for you emotionally, I believe you are better off with him living there, partly because it gives you a lot more opportunities to DB and show him your changes, so I recommend that you drop the idea of pushing him out the door or at least into the basement. However, this is a decision that only you can make. I think I am better off because my H had a year of the "new, improved DBing me" to absorb to help counteract memories of previous behaviors that he didn't like.

I hope you find this stuff helpful, rather than feeling hijacked. Feel free to ignore what isn't useful to you.

I could go on and on, but I'm toast for tonight, and I'm probably not going to be making any sense at all pretty soon. I'm already finding that I've fallen asleep at the keyboard and it's full of things like eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee and jjjjjjjjjjjjj!

Take care of yourself.

Peace and blessings,
Dawn

[sgctxok]

great discussion, great perspectives!

[Dawn of Hope]

I should add that I'm not the best person to advise you on how to stop the cake-eating...I'm sure it is obvious to others who read my story, but I will just mention that I am well aware of it myself. So...feel free to take my comments with that large grain of salt.

Peace,
Dawn

[In Limbo]

Dawn and Forever,
Thanks so much for your perspectives. I've decided to take another night and think about this before taking any action. Today was a difficult day. H was in a very grumpy, angry mood with both me and the kids. When he acts like he did today (verbally abusive to the kids) I want to choke him. I'm wondering if something has happened with OW as I've read alot about that affecting their moods and have seen it happen in the past. I have to say that I did not DB very well today as I was just plain ticked at his behavior. If he had been "just a friend" I would have called him on it. But as an MLCer, I knew it would do no good. It just kills me when the boys say "why is Dad so mean?"

So tonight I'll think and pray and try to renew myself for tomorrow. What kills me most is why I still want him after all this. I just want to make it all go away, but know that's fairy tale and not going to happen.

It probably doesn't sound like it from my posts b/c I tend to focus on the negative and on H, but I have found myself growing through this. I'm reconnecting with friends and laughing and enjoying life probably more than before all this. It's sort of a wake up call for someone like me who has made myself a wife and mother first and lost so much of myself. People keep telling me how great I look these days and I think that's a great compliment considering what I'm going through.

You guys hang in there and stay strong! People like you posting their sitches, thoughts, etc. have helped me tremendously. I know that whatever way this ends up, I'll be ok. May not be the life I had pictured, but God won't give me more than I can handle and the sun will shine on my future for sure.

Take Care!

[In Limbo]

Dawn,

BTW, I don't take your post as a hijack at all. I appreciate the feedback!

[Dawn of Hope]

IL,
Glad you don't feel hijacked! I can get a bit long-winded and I talk about myself too much sometimes.

I don't try to advise anyone on kid-related issues because I don't feel qualified, but I know other people on here can do so.

DETACH, DETACH, DETACH!! This is IMPERATIVE...but it takes time and practice. There's a link on the main DB page to an article MWD wrote, which is called something like "Maybe he's just teething." That might be helpful, even though it's not focused on detaching so much by name.

No surprise at all that you are growing through this mess...our spouses are the ones "in crisis," but we are the ones who get the lessons and the growth (at least until they start waking up). One of the problems is that later, when the MLCer does start to come out of their tunnel, the LBS has grown so much that the MLCer has to scramble to catch up...if the LBS is even willing to give them the opportunity by that point; many have given up and left the MLCer in their dust by then.

Keep working on yourself, working to make yourself a better person by any means available. Work on becoming the person you were truly meant to be--someone you like and are proud of. Rediscover the parts of your authentic self--your interests, your playfulness, your passions, whatever those things might be for you--that got lost along the way. Do it for YOU, not for your H or anyone else, or it won't last. The only person that will absolutely, without a doubt, be with you for your whole life is YOU, so make that companion someone you like to live with!

And I should really take my own advice...

I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say here, but it sounds like you are a person of faith, so if you haven't already, look up a lady named Charlyne Steinkamp, who has been in a restored marriage for over 20 years. She and her H have a ministry to other people of faith who are standing for the restoration of their broken Ms, and they have lots of resources, including a daily devotional (no charge). You can do a search on her name or "Charlyne Cares" and you will find them. I consider the resources they offer to be a faith-based complement to all of the wonderful help available through DB (although there is no direct connection of which I am aware).

If you can scrape together the funds, the DB coaches are _unbelievably_ helpful and can give you focused, DB-based advice based on your particular circumstances. They have a gift for cutting through the muck and summarizing what YOU need to do for your sitch...and they somehow manage to make you feel stronger and more positive every time you talk to them! I had six sessions with Jody, and it was some of the most effective money I have ever spent. I might not have a restored M yet, but I felt that the advice I got helped me to know what to do to give myself the best possible outcome, for myself and for my M, and it's nowhere near over yet...H and I are both still alive, and even still legally M, after all! I have heard praise for the coaches from everyone who has worked with one of them--they are great! Get the multi-session package if you can manage it--it really helps to have those follow-ups. And no, DB doesn't pay me for saying this stuff!

Be prepared for the hardest (and possibly the longest) battle of your life...but remember that you only have to take it a day at a time, or even an hour or a minute at a time, if needed. And remember that you have a wealth of resources available to help you along the way...prayer being one of the top ones. And you can always come here and yell for some more direct advice if you need it!

Hang in there!

Peace,
Dawn