"I try to keep my expectations low, too. It’s ironic that this was much easier two years ago when W REALLY avoided me. The very fact that she doesn’t anymore gives me hope that some of my dearest wishes can come true. It’s a fine line between hope and expectations sometimes."
----------------------
I can relate to where this is coming from! What I've been telling myself---and others who are at this turning point---is that I guess our expectations of an instant and glorious reunion are just as fantasy-based as the MLCer's "soulmate" LUV with the OP. Just when we think we've had all we can take, we find we have MORE waiting to do!! I don't mean to PO other posters, or you. I try not to comment if I can't find a point where I relate. What I'm doing w/ my H now is lagging WAY back and letting him do the work/pursuing. I have very little patience left myself, after all the MAJOR trials I've just been through. There's nothing I can do but acknowledge that and accept it's my problem. I'm certainly only "advising" you from paths that have worked (so far) for me!
"That’s not quite accurate. She wants to go out with friends. When MF was in the picture (more on that later for Lily), we (yes… WE) were quite active. One fight I have within myself is that it was OK for us to go out every Saturday evening with MF and his W. We’d go to movies with them. We’d go to flea markets with them. But now that it’s no longer possible, we can’t do anything together! W’s position is that we have family responsibilities that prevent us from doing things together. Yes, we went to a movie Sunday, but W was very reticent."
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OMGawd! That is a more clear picture. She's in withdrawal. UGH. It *is* easier to operate in an "emergency" situation, when the very clear goal is to get the OP out of the picture and the spouse recommitted to working on M.
But there is no end to the creepiness of what that work actually entails. Or at least it seems like there is no end in sight.
I have been very lucky because my H was GONE for weeks during this period. Haha---others had to bear the worst of it.
It is galling that you can't replace the loss she is feeling. My H and I still can't discuss this, so no---of course there is no way to point out the obvious to your W without bad results.
We are committed to dealing with this in MC, and only recently have I started speaking up about being at the end of my rope and tired of waiting. It's the only way I could have the patience to wait---the idea that we will get to everything, in the presence of a professional we trust who can help.
Quoting Jamesjohn:"She's said on more than one occasion that she's gained the strength to be able to carry on without me if something ever happened to me."
What is your typical response when she says this?
There’s no “typical” response. When I say she’s mentioned this on several occasions, it was in different contexts over the past coupla years. My initial response was that yes, this is a good thing, but you have to balance that with the possibility that something may not happen to me. Most recently, her statement was wrt MF’s W. i.e.: she would fall apart if something happened to her H. In that case, I agreed.
I only mentioned this because sometimes I feel that W is on such an independence kick that she refuses to accept my support, friendship, and help of any kind – except when it comes to my duties as a father and provider.
Quoting Jamesjohn: What I see here are two people who are stuck. Two people who are in a relationship that ain't quite as good as it could be.
Neither of them are right, and neither of them are wrong.
Neither of them need sympathy, they both need solutions.
Dunno, JJ. From what I can see, W has found a solution. She’s not stuck. I am. Frankly, she’s calling the shots right now, and right or wrong, I have to go along with her vision of OR.
Quoting Jamesjohn: I, for one, hate to see him feel "powerless" over his situation, waiting for his wife to come around.
But that’s the way it is. I’m not saying you don’t have great ideas, or the others either. But there’s no tension between us. I believe that W knows I respect her and love her. She knows I want to do things with her, but she doesn’t want the same thing. Her mind is made up that doing things with her husband is the same thing as subordinating herself to him.
That begs the question, “What could I do differently to make her change her perception?” I’ve been letting her do things on her own. I’ve not stood in her way for anything. I haven’t complained about the fact that she doesn’t want to do anything alone with me, and only occasionally ask her. I’ve done things on my own… karate… hang out with friends (other than her). Done things with the kids w/o her. The only thing I haven’t done is to agree with her that this is the whole picture of how a R should be, or that this is the way it has to be for us.
One day, after MF’s W exiled us, W told me that the only Rs she’s ever seen that worked were those in which H and W let each other do whatever they wanted with whomever they wanted. That’s what she wants, and that’s what I’ve done my best to give her.
That’s her solution, and for her, it’s working.
Quoting Jamesjohn: I, for one, hate to see him feel "powerless" over his situation, waiting for his wife to come around.
I hate it too, JJ. But I think that I really am powerless. Mabye all I can do is to wait for her to “come around.”
As rayanne implied I’ve been at this for quite awhile now. I came over to “piecing” when W told me she was ready “to try.” It’s been off-and-on ever since. I guess it’s off right now.
I know you don’t mean to PO other posters. Rayanne and I go way back. She’s more familiar with my sit than you are, and probably recognizes that the sorts of things you posted to me about are precisely the kinds of perceptions that I’ve been fighting for months (years?)
I take no offense at posters’ perceptions or advice. Like you said recently…
Quoting Glo: Obviously, only you know the whole story and can determine what resonates from our feedback.
Quoting Glo: I can relate to where this is coming from! What I've been telling myself---and others who are at this turning point---is that I guess our expectations of an instant and glorious reunion are just as fantasy-based as the MLCer's "soulmate" LUV with the OP. Just when we think we've had all we can take, we find we have MORE waiting to do!!
There’s nothing instant about it. I have a thought about turning points, too. I’ve posted countless times that I thought my R was at a turning point. Sometimes for the good, sometimes bad. But it keeps on turning and turning and turning until you barf!
Quoting ANSI feel that W is on such an independence kick that she refuses to accept my support, friendship, and help of any kind – except when it comes to my duties as a father and provider[/quote:
I completely understand and relate to your frustrations concerning this! My wife HAS got to make it on her own...it is part of HER plan and DOES interfere with her desire to have me around sometimes! Lately she has told me that she has wanted me around...has needed me, but that she has got to prove to herself that she can go it alone! I dont see these two:independence/support, as being exclusive of one another and dont quite know how to relate this to my wife! Simply stating it is no good either.
She is going to a wedding on Saturday night and is going ALONE just to prove to herself that she can! Perhaps she WOULD like me to go with her but she can not ask me to. Because tehn she would be admitting that she does desire my friendship and support? Not sure. But the aspect of "what will evryone else think" does also come into play with my wife. If we are seen together...as in a date, a wedding or something, then it is bad!
My only hope is that going to a wedding WILL perhaps make her think about ours!
Sorry I cant offer any help...just trying to say I do understand!
I felt the need to bring this over to your thread.
This is something that C2H posted on a KLA thread, and I thought that it is appropriate to your situation.
I probably won't be back for awhile, and wanted to leave you with this story. I hope that this story has some meaning for you, and that you can take the morale of it to heart.
Take care, my friend.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Story for Valentine's Day By Jo Ann Larsen
Larry and Jo Ann were an ordinary couple. They lived in an ordinary house on an ordinary street. Like any other ordinary couple, they struggled to make ends meet and to do the right things for their children.
They were ordinary in yet another way - they had their squabbles. Much of their conversation concerned what was wrong in their marriage and who was to blame.
Until one day when a most extraordinary event took place.
"You know, Jo Ann, I've got a magic chest of drawers. Every time I open them, they're full of socks and underwear," Larry said. "I want to thank you for filling them all these years."
Jo Ann stared at her husband over the top of her glasses. "What do you want, Larry?"
"Nothing. I just want you to know I appreciate those magic drawers."
This wasn't the first time Larry had done something odd, so Jo Ann pushed the incident out of her mind until a few days later.
"Jo Ann, thank you for recording so many correct check numbers in the ledger this month. You put down the right numbers 15 out of 16 times. That's a record."
Disbelieving what she had heard, Jo Ann looked up from her mending. "Larry, you're always complaining about my recording the wrong check numbers. Why stop now?"
"No reason. I just wanted you to know I appreciate the effort you're making."
Jo Ann shook her head and went back to her mending. "What's got into him?" she mumbled to herself.
Nevertheless, the next day when Jo Ann wrote a check at the grocery store, she glanced at her checkbook to confirm that she had put down the right check number. "Why do I suddenly care about those dumb check numbers?" she asked herself.
She tried to disregard the incident, but Larry's strange behavior intensified.
"Jo Ann, that was a great dinner," he said one evening. "I appreciate all your effort. Why, in the past 15 years I'll bet you've fixed over 14,000 meals for me and the kids."
Then "Gee, Jo Ann, the house looks spiffy. You've really worked hard to get it looking so good." And even "Thanks, Jo Ann, for just being you. I really enjoy your company."
Jo Ann was growing worried. "Where's the sarcasm, the criticism?" she wondered.
Her fears that something peculiar was happening to her husband were confirmed by 16-year-old Shelly, who complained, "Dad's gone bonkers, Mom. He just told me I looked nice. With all this makeup and these sloppy clothes, he still said it. That's not Dad, Mom. What's wrong with him?"
Whatever was wrong, Larry didn't get over it. Day in and day out he continued focusing on the positive.
Over the weeks, Jo Ann grew more accustomed to her mate's unusual behavior and occasionally even gave him a grudging "Thank you." She prided herself on taking it all in stride, until one day something so peculiar happened, she became completely discombobulated:
"I want you to take a break," Larry said. "I am going to do the dishes. So please take your hands off that frying pan and leave the kitchen."
(Long, long pause.) "Thank you, Larry. Thank you very much!"
Jo Ann's step was now a little lighter, her self-confidence higher and once in a while she hummed. She didn't seem to have as many blue moods anymore. "I rather like Larry's new behavior," she thought.
That would be the end of the story except one day another most extraordinary event took place. This time it was Jo Ann who spoke.
"Larry," she said, "I want to thank you for going to work and providing for us all these years. I don't think I've ever told you how much I appreciate it."
Larry has never revealed the reason for his dramatic change of behavior no matter how hard Jo Ann has pushed for an answer, and so it will likely remain one of life's mysteries. But it's one I'm thankful to live with. You see, I am Jo Ann. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JJ
Read about Divorce Busting® Telephone Coaching here!
Let's look at this from the MLC perspective. Help fill in the blanks. I know you are repelled by the mer letters MLC but I'm gonna go there just because I keep coming back to this.
You get to wear the MLC hat and your wife is the wifey.
Stage 1---Denial. Your job stress. Son #2s health.
Stage 2---Anger.
Stage 3--Replay.
Stage4/5---Depression/Withdrawal.
Stage 6---Acceptance.
Andy. Please play.
You didn't do a full-blown MLC cause there's no ow. Because of that your wife would not have been forced to have a mid-life transition.
However. Put enough STRESS into a person's life and they're bound to feel that something's got to change.
Your wife told you at one point that she wasn't going to let you affect her again (sorry, I have forgotten the exact posting) and put up emotional walls.
Andy, could you possibly have had to deal with an aborted MLC because of your wife being sucked into one of her own?
I suggest this because of a post re your daughter once expressing that her mom was being a teenager again.
Her stage 1 might have been #2 son's situation and stage 2 would have the anger phase being focused on you.
Her Replay phase involved what? I think of her hanging out w the girlfriends then letting that go. I think of her having a guy friend. I think of her going roller blading or kick-boxing. The motor cycle fits a Replay thingie as well.
Ok.
You maybe got as far as the anger phase then got jerked to reality by what was happening w your wife.
Your struggle with Depression is that stage 4.You had to fight your way out of that.
Meanwhile, your wife has been in the 'selfish' emotional mode that describes an MLCer.
What does it take to get her to come on through into the 5th phase.
Maybe losing her male friend. Maybe that would count as a crash. Maybe . Maybe. Maybe.
So if there's any chance of me being close, then maybe within the year your wife will have gone through the MLC depression phase and into her Acceptance.
You, who had an aborted MLC were thrust into the midlife transition because of the threat, yes threat, presented by the presence of the male friend.
You have had to decide that you will hold onto your personal integrity (I salute you!!!) and you have made so very many changes about yourself. You've read my posts about the lessons that have to be learned. It's all over your posts about how you have changed you in your desire to save your marriage.
You didn't have too, Andy, but you did.
So you are where a bunch of us are, waiting patiently for the spouse to come on through.
She will, too. When she's ready. Bless you for being willing to change yourself.
Question. Although the changes you have undergone may have hurt, are you pleased w you?
If you are not pleased w you then here's where the concern is.
Remember the possibly aborted MLC? When your wife does begin to come around you might have to deal with some other major STRESSOR that could get your MLC going again.
That means the vague feeling of discontent and dissatisfaction. That means looking to blame it all on the one who loves you most.
Since you have that committment to hold onto your integrity I think that you are safe from having a full-blown MLC (your wife is SO lucky).
Should you get sucked into Take Two of a MLC you'd probably have to deal w Depression again.
Because your wife wouldn't have to deal w the midlife transition of the betrayed spouse , once you conquered the Depression phase you'd come on through into your Acceptance and . . .
Ta-tah-h-h-h. . .you'd both be changed but the love would be stronger and the committment to each other not tarnished.
Thanks for reading. Don't chop it up as garbage, just toy w the idea and see if it fits at all.
Andy, 'til I got sucked into the middle of this MLC stuff I would have denied it could ever happen.
Thinking back to where my head was 5-10 years ago, I've come to the realization that quite possibly I was in my own life crisis. Perhaps going through that (and what you're going throught now) is what eventually threw my H into his life crisis.
I was a stay-at-home mom with three rambuncious (?) boys. When my youngest was just 3 weeks old, I started my own transcribing business at home. It wasn't that I needed to do something to make me feel more fulfilled. I simply wanted to help take some of the financial stress off my H. Looking back, I really don't know how I managed. I slept maybe 4 hours a night. I worked 7 days a week. Basically had only 2-3 days without work a month. I was exhausted. We rarely went out as a couple. Our friends would ask us to go camping on the weekends, but we couldn't cuz I HAD to work. This obviously took quite a toll on me, but I never even thought about the toll it was taking on my H.
MY perception was that he had the good life. For a number of years his work took him away from home at least 3 nights a week. I saw the situation as this: he got to be alone in a hotel room, eat out without three sets of hands pawing at him, watch what HE wanted to watch on T.V., take a quiet shower, read a book without being disturbed every 2 seconds, and that was just in the evenings. During the day he got to talk to adults about IMPORTANT stuff; he got to go out to lunch, etc., etc. When he returned home, he expected a wonderful home-cooked meal because he'd been eating restaurant food for days. Didn't matter that I hadn't had the time to get to the market, or that I was simply too exhausted to cook.
Then, of course, as far as intimacy it never seemed to matter how I was feeling or how exhausted I was. It was always, "I've been gone for X days. Don't you want me?" Or words to that affect. I'm sure you get the picture. I resented that SO much. I felt used. To me it had nothing to do with love and caring. He just wanted sex. This is rather an over simplification of the situation, but it's impossible to get into it too deeply here. It would take way too long. I'm sure you get the picture.
The resentments grew and grew. At times I felt I hated my H. I couldn't stand being around him. I wanted to be alone. I dreamt of what it would be like to be on my own. I put a great deal of emotional distance between us. Oddly, I never thought he felt that distance. I always thought he felt things were just fine. Well, I really misread that one, didn't I !!
During recent talks with my H, he told me that during time he tried everything he could think of to "make things right." He tried to be the best husband he could. He's always helped out around the house, either cooks dinner or cleans up after I cook. He's one of those guys that as soon as I mentioned I'd like something done to the house or the yard, he'd start planning it and before I knew it, it would be done. Once I mentioned I felt it was time to move my office out of the downstairs bedroom so that we could separate two of the boys and they'd all have their own rooms. I had devised a way to build a little space into a loft area. As I write this, I'm sitting in a beautiful office that my H designed and built all on his own . I'm talking about a complete room addition to the house!! There are many, many other examples like this. So, no, I certainly have no complaints about my H doing things around the house.
I won't say nothing he did made any difference to me, but it made very little difference at best. I knew I had a great guy, a wonderful H and father. Everybody loves him. What was the matter with me? There were times when I simply couldn't stand to be around him. For years I dreaded going to bed at night -- it would ALWAYS turn into either a negotiation or a fight. After a while I just gave up and went along with him to avoid that. What I couldn't avoid was the deep resentment that that caused in me. I remember thinking, "I can't live the rest of my life like this." But at the time, I thought it was because of him. Later I realized that it was MY problem and I needed to do something.
So, the kids got older and more self-sufficient. My business got to the point where I was making a good living and only having to work 4-5 hours a day -- and no weekends!! The pressure eased up on me. I had time to look around and recognize the state of my R with my H. We were just co-existing at that point. I wanted to see if we could bring back the spark. I knew I needed more. It took a couple of years of working on my own issues, but I was getting there -- moving back towards my H. By that time, he'd given up hope. He didn't see how things were changing. We had a conversation one night where he finally told me how deeply he'd been hurt throughout those years. I didn't know I'd hurt him. I only saw what I thought was anger. I was finally ready to let go of all my pain and disappointments and resentments of the past in order to have a warm and loving relationship with my H again. As you well know, he was no longer at that place. He had a ton of anger, disappointment, pain, and resentments of his own by that time. I did a complete 180 (didn't know that term at that time). Apparently he didn't trust what he was seeing -- or just didn't want to be hurt again. He moved ahead into a PA because of the way that person "made him feel" about himself. That started two years of hell for my H, and one year of hell for me.
So, what I think MAY be happening (who really knows), is that your W is having her own life crisis. If that is the case, there is nothing that you can do about it. She will have to complete the process on her own. I find it very encouraging that she is beginning to do things for you again. When I was at my worst, I didn't even want to pick up my H's shirt off the floor!! As things started to change, I started enjoying doing some of the little things for him again. So I think that is a very good sign that she may be moving "towards the light", shall we say
You said above that at times you feel like giving up hope. Please fight against that. My H said he had given up hope, and look what it's gotten him. He betrayed his W, his family, his friends, and most importantly himself. He now sees a psychiatrist, a psychologists, and is on medication for depression. In the past two years he had numerous health problems -- all stress related. One by one those problems are going away now, but what a mess he made of himself!! He will be forever changed by his actions -- by his not being able to hold onto his integrity, by the pain he's caused. I wouldn't wish all this on anyone, Andy. Keep hope alive, because without hope there is only misery.
Anyone who reads this may think my H had very good reasons to do what he did. However, at the time I felt I had very good reasons to feel the way I felt also. I was lonely, unhappy, felt unappreciated, and at times felt unloved. I chose not to betray my H and my M. I had opportunities -- I ran from those opportunites. Scared me to death to think of the pain and turmoil I'd put myself through, let alone my H and my family. We all make choices. Some make bad choices for good reasons.
Hold onto yourself, Andy. Hold onto your integrity. Everything that's happened so far in your M can be worked out to a happy ending. When infidelity occurs it changes to much. So much will never be the same again for me. No matter how good things continue to get with H and me, it will never be as good as it could have been. I will never feel that "specialness"; that feeling of being cherished. I will never again believe that my H loves me totally and completely -- and only me. That is a bitter pill to swallow.
Sorry this is so long. I knew it would be, that's why it took me some time to respond.
I'll get back to you all when I can, but there's too many posts to handle right now. So I'll start with Lily.
Yes, Lily. Labels of any kind repel me, and MLC is but one. The reason they repel me is because they tend to put everyone in the same bucket and distract us from solutions. I don’t think I’ve ever posted that MLC doesn’t exist, or that it is not a factor in my life. In fact, I seem to recall posting that MLC is a factor – both from my W’s perspective and for me.
Right now, I’m at a loss for solutions – except to wait it out. Perhaps it’s time to look at things from a MLC perspective.
I don’t know how that will help me unless it gives me some hope, but hope is probably the thing I need most right now.
So… I’ll play your game.
I don’t know when I was “scheduled” to have my MLC but W was the first to burn out. She had enormous stress and sought support from me. I did my best, but it wasn’t enough. No point in trying to figure out if it was my fault, hers, or circumstance. My efforts weren’t enough, and are no longer even remembered.
Her responsibilities to the kids probably aborted her MLC.
So what happened next? D#1 became old enough to baby-sit. We started going out a little. Money got easier, so W was able to enjoy some of the activities she had wanted to do for a long time (e.g.: kickboxing). She started to make new friends. I hit the road (work), and she managed just fine.
I crashed.
I became needy. Perhaps W didn’t want me to abort her MLC one more time. Maybe that’s what she wouldn’t let me do to her anymore.
As to S#1’s influence in all of this, I was definitely in denial for much longer than W. She’d acknowledged his autism months before I could even say the word. She’d given up hope of a normal life for herself long before I did.
I think that another thing that influenced how W handled all of this was when she watched her own mother’s MLC. Her mother became very resentful of her H because he was out playing hockey, etc. leaving her at home to hold down the home front. W said she didn’t want to go the resentment route. She’s told me on several occasions that she’s let go of the resentment, and that’s another things she won’t “let me do to her anymore.” She won’t let me make her feel guilty or resentful. I think that she’ll take her freedom whether I like it or not, and she won’t accept guilt or resentment from me.
But I don’t think it’s been a clean stage-by-stage MLC for either of us. I don’t think either of us are in denial except to say that neither of us wants to discuss the bad stuff. Does that mean we’re both still in the “anger” stage? I don’t know what the “replay” stage is, but we’ve both gone through depression. In both cases, we reached out to the other (so much for withdrawal), but the other was not receptive to it.
Like I said, I don’t understand the concept of “replay stage”, but hanging out with GFs, kickboxing, blading, motorcycle, etc. They’re all things that she felt she was missing out on and would continue to miss out on if she completely resigned herself to mothering an handicapped child for the rest of her life.
If the truth be known, I agree with this. I started karate myself. Tried blading, but an hip injury prevents me from pursuing that, and I enjoy my motorcycle immensely.
I’m left wondering if both of our MLCs weren’t exactly aborted, but rather that they were dampened.
andy, i don't know much to anything about mlc. my h had a crises due to too many transitions. a tlc. it makes sense that your w came to the realization of your son's autism and the affect it would have on all your lives. she had to build some defense to adjust to her new reality. much like she said she didn't want to resent you so she was going to do what she needed to do and not feel guilty, well she must have had to do some of that with your son. perhaps her defenses are overdeveloped so that she doesn't allow too much feeling in. going out as couples is fun, but distracting in a way. an escape from a one on one intimate discussion. seems like your w is trying to keep everything surface calm so as not to feel too much of anything. i may be totally off target, and i certainly am not as eloquant(SP?) or have had as much life experience as your other friends here. she may miss the mf, because he provided a distraction without the resposibility of an intimate relationship. she probably is in withdrawal of some type and using family obligations as an excuse to not try to fill that time with couple time. she will have to reach out to you at some point. she must be awfully lonely. her "cover" of independance is a protective shield. i wish i knew what to say that would be the magic answer. i think she may need time and therapy to let her defences down. we all have resentments. it's normal. we deal with them, discuss them. why is she so fearful of this emotion that she is shutting herself off?
i hope someday i can say something that helps you as much as you have helped me. lisa
One thing I do know about MLC is that the "M" part is a misnomer. Michele said it somewhere (don't remember where), but in today's stressfull fast paced world, it can strike at pretty much any age.
W has told me on occasion that she simply wanted to live a parallel life with me, and that she didn't want to even think about OR. Since that time, she's said that she's willing to work on it. She has. Off and on.
Seems to me like we're back to parallel living.
So I think you're right about MF being a friend with no emotional attachments. I've put a lot of effort into being a non-judgmental friend, and as rayanne said before, I've worked hard at not being an emotional burden to her.
But I'm her H. I can't avoid that.
We're friends. No doubt in my mind about that. But I want the intimacy we once had. Can't push it on her, but I can't not want it either.
I don't know how lonely she is. She has a lot of interaction with our kids, especially our daughters who are blossoming into young women. She also has regular contact with her brother and mother.
She's shut herself off from me, but not her family.
As to why she's shutting herself off from me...
I've said and done things that were interpreted (misinterpreted) by her as shutting her off. I've addressed some of them with her, and she's been a little more open, but I don't know how open.
I do know that she isn't sleeping well. She chalks it oup to peri-menopause - a subject which she gives me glimpses of, but not something she will discuss openly with me.
