I made my first appointment with my lawyer today for next Tuesday. He's the current elected president of he regional association so it would seem he should know what he's doing. He asked about her lawyer, as he knows most of them in the area, and wants to start planning his approach.
Told him that first and foremost, I want what is best for my girls and secondarily, as my wife is the one who is leaving and breaking up the family, that I was not in a purely 50/50 split mode but rather a "fair and reasonable under the circumstances" mode. He said we'll talk about it and see where things stand.
Sucks to start the process formally, but that's the hand I have been dealt, and I will get through it.
Me 47 W 44 D16, D13 T 23yrs M 20yrs WAW/MLC + Male EA "BFF from H.S." = Misery
Is he a family law attorney? Does he specialize in representing men?
As for your talk with the kids, and this is just my opinion, but I think teenagers are old enough to be told the truth about affairs. I told my S-then-14, in an age-appropriate way ("Mommy has a boyfriend, and it's not right for married people to have boyfriends or girlfriends while they're still married. I'm angry about it, and that's why you have overheard us arguing a lot lately. We're trying to work on it, and I don't want a divorce, but I wanted you to know the truth and I will ALWAYS tell you the truth"), and then I asked him if he had any questions.
Reasonable people differ on that approach, but you CERTAINLY shouldn't tell them you think a divorce is the way to go if you're still willing to work on the problems.
Heartbroken, you said: "She says she wants to work together using Collaborative Law, which is based on good faith and trust, but I just KNOW she is going to lie to her lawyer about who-knows-what and I am unsure of what exactly to do about it."
I just wanted to chime in here...I used to work for a collaborative law attorney...just so you understand, neither attorney is going to care about something like this (the who-knows-what issue). This is just something that you and she need to work out between you. It won't really matter to the D process. I just want to point this out because, many people get caught up in the idea that because they are in the moral "right" on a certain issue, that somehow the divorce process will ferret this out and bring them vindication.
Yes, collaborative law is based on truth and trust, but this type of truth (the lying about who-know-what) is not a legal matter, therefore, it will not be of any consequence to your case.
I know that hurts, and you really just hurt that she would lie to you like this...but someday you will get used to this hurt and realize it isn't that big of a deal in the big picture. I don't mean to minimize what you are hurt about, but the reality is that many other things are going to hurt you much more in this process than the little lies she may be telling about this type of thing.
If you talk to you attorney about this lying issue, its going to cost you about $300 per hour to do so. Sure, they will listen with empathy, and they may bring it up in a collaborative meeting (with all parties present) but again...is it worth $300 per hour just to get to see her face when she is called out on a lie like this?
I am really just trying to help you here. What most people need during divorce proceedings is a divorce coach or a good counselor who has done many divorcees. That is where it is appropriate (and cost effective) to bring up your hurt and disappointment that she is lying to you.
If she is lying about property owned, money held, stocks, custody issues (serious ones), then of course the attorneys need to be involved and they will step in and voice their legal opinions. So rest assured that lies that would effect either of you financially will be ferretted out.
Heartbroken, you said: "She says she wants to work together using Collaborative Law, which is based on good faith and trust, but I just KNOW she is going to lie to her lawyer about who-knows-what and I am unsure of what exactly to do about it."
I just wanted to chime in here...I used to work for a collaborative law attorney...just so you understand, neither attorney is going to care about something like this (the who-knows-what issue). This is just something that you and she need to work out between you. It won't really matter to the D process. I just want to point this out because, many people get caught up in the idea that because they are in the moral "right" on a certain issue, that somehow the divorce process will ferret this out and bring them vindication.
Yes, collaborative law is based on truth and trust, but this type of truth (the lying about who-know-what) is not a legal matter, therefore, it will not be of any consequence to your case.
I know that hurts, and you really just hurt that she would lie to you like this...but someday you will get used to this hurt and realize it isn't that big of a deal in the big picture. I don't mean to minimize what you are hurt about, but the reality is that many other things are going to hurt you much more in this process than the little lies she may be telling about this type of thing.
If you talk to you attorney about this lying issue, its going to cost you about $300 per hour to do so. Sure, they will listen with empathy, and they may bring it up in a collaborative meeting (with all parties present) but again...is it worth $300 per hour just to get to see her face when she is called out on a lie like this?
I am really just trying to help you here. What most people need during divorce proceedings is a divorce coach or a good counselor who has done many divorcees. That is where it is appropriate (and cost effective) to bring up your hurt and disappointment that she is lying to you.
If she is lying about property owned, money held, stocks, custody issues (serious ones), then of course the attorneys need to be involved and they will step in and voice their legal opinions. So rest assured that lies that would effect either of you financially will be ferretted out.
Hey Puppy - He's a Collaborative Law attorney, specializing in reaching a mutually-agreeable settlement with the least amount of fuss and blood-letting. Don't know if he specailizes in representing men, but as a family man himself, he likely has a good idea of where I am coming from, especially when he finds out about the EA which I have THOROUGHLY documented with email, cell phone and text records.
As for my girls, I think they ARE able to understand an affair (13 & 16) and that they DO know it is NOT something married people should do. Obviously, my W and some counselors (mostly divorced themselves) say we shouldn't adress it directly as it would make her look like the "bad guy" and perhaps permanently damage her relationship with her kids. They feel it is an "adult" thing that the kids just don't need to know about. I think that lets her off the hook too much.
I feel we are ALL responsible, and should be held accountable, for our own actions, whatever they are. That doesn't mean bad-mouthing anyone, but it also does NOT mean we should cover for them either. Her EA is not the only reason she wants a D but it is a PRIME reason why she did not fully invest herself in trying to make our subsequent MC sessions work and make an earnest effort to repair the damage.
I plan on emphasizing that this is what SHE wants, it is not what I want, that I feel it is important to try to work through the many problems that come up in ALL marriages, not just escape through affairs or divorce when things go bad, and that I would still be willing to try to stay together IF she is willing to put her best, HONEST effort into it.
Me 47 W 44 D16, D13 T 23yrs M 20yrs WAW/MLC + Male EA "BFF from H.S." = Misery
Hey DQ - Understood and your points are well taken.
What I meant by who-knows-what is that I have no idea what lies she will tell her attorney or when all parties are present. I know they won't care a bit about her lying about her EA (which is what I think you thought I was saying) but she has spun such a complicated web that I think when there are things that are "judgement calls" rather than legal clarities, (like who gets which family pet, or exactly how much personal financial support she deserves, for instance) I'm likely to get just a tad more support if they realize she isn't prone to being forthright.
I'm pretty sure when they hear both stories, they will understand pretty well what the situation is and if there is any room to slightly "lean" one way or the other (and there almost always is, the law doesn't spell out clear rulings on each and every little detail of a marriage) they might lean slightly my way, or at least NOT lean slightly her way.
One side note. One reason she wants Collaborative Law is that it does not really require legal "grounds" for divorce. In the view of our northeastern state, being generally unhappy with your spouse is not really considered grounds for divorce. So because she can't file for a good reason (although she has agreed I could easily file on grounds against her) she wants CL. She has had to trump up charges against me thus far to justify her decision in her own mind and I'm not sure what other charges she will trump up when she meets with her attorney.
Having worked for a lawyer, you know that there is considerable expense to an innocent party simply defending against false charges. Even when vindicated, many times the wronged party is not fully reimbursed for their expenditures so her upcoming claims/accusations do concern me.
I do appreciate your input so please tell me if I am off-base or just borrowing trouble.
Me 47 W 44 D16, D13 T 23yrs M 20yrs WAW/MLC + Male EA "BFF from H.S." = Misery
As for my girls, I think they ARE able to understand an affair (13 & 16) and that they DO know it is NOT something married people should do. Obviously, my W and some counselors (mostly divorced themselves) say we shouldn't adress it directly as it would make her look like the "bad guy" and perhaps permanently damage her relationship with her kids. They feel it is an "adult" thing that the kids just don't need to know about. I think that lets her off the hook too much.
In my experience, this comes down about 40/60, with 40% being in favor of telling older children the truth. Lots of anecdotal stories about "when I was younger, I was glad my parents didn't tell me" being offset by "My parents lied to me, and to this day, years later, I still have a lot of emotional scars" stuff.
I CERTAINLY wouldn't lie to them, if asked a direct question. THAT could be really damaging. With everything that's going on in their little world right now, they need to know that at least ONE parent is telling them the truth.
I also think you need to look at their ages, and the fact that they are forming -- now and in the few years ahead -- most of their opinions and values about how to relate with the opposite sex. I think you want those traits in them to be formed as healthy as possible.
I do think it's possible to "love the sinner, but hate the sin," and to speak the truth, in love, without "running down" the other parent.
I concur with Puppy--and I've been there. My 13-year-old D completely figured out that her father left us because he was having an affair, even figured out who it was with. And when she asked, I was honest with her. Her father continues to place 100% of the blame on me and denies to everyone, including D13, that he was/is having an affair. And she resents the heck out of that, doesn't trust him for anything, has a lot of anger but is generally afraid to express it to him because he threatens to "ground" her. And she is afraid that, since he stopped loving me, he could stop loving her--and to her it feels as if he has, because he's so "into" his new family.
But because I was honest, and because she feels she can talk with me about anything and express any emotion, we've had some very positive conversations and remain very close. She doesn't hate her father for this, but she recognizes how much it has negatively affected our lives.
M60 H52 D20 M14 yrs OW-old gf from 1986 bomb-5/18/08 H filed for D-9/10/08 D final 4/24/09 xH remarried (not OW) 2012
Thanks HM. I'm sure my D's have a good idea of what went (is going?) on and that is not how you are supposed to love and respect your spouse. They definitely notice she tries to get away from me and our home as much as possible. I'm pretty sure they resent it but they have not said so to me. Time will tell...
Journaling:
W told our daughters she wanted a divorce (with me present) last Sunday night. She said she wasn't happy and hadn't been for a long time and that counseling hadn't helped as she hoped it would so she thought it would be best for everyone that we split up and moved on. She told them it had absolutely nothing to do with them and that she loved them very much. She also told them that nothing was going to change for a while, as I am still out of town during the week, and that we would still be together for the holidays, etc. Since she did not make it sound like it was my decision as well, I didn't say anything.
They just sat there in silence for a few minutes and I asked them if they had any questions for us or wanted to say anything but they just shook their heads no. They would not look at her and only glanced at me. Asked them if they had any questions for me and again, shook their heads no. They sat in silence for another five minutes or so and te D16 got up and went to her room. D13 sat for a while longer, not looking at either of us and then got up and went to her own room.
We let them be with it for about 30min and then D16 wanted to know if she could go spend the night at her best freind's house and that it was okay with her friend's mom. Figuring she probably needed to just get away for a while, and spend some time with her friend for support, we both said yes. We both checked on D13 about a 1/2 hr after that and she said she was okay, making it seem like it wasn't that big of a deal.
Their lack of reaction means one of two things. First, they likely have seen it coming and are resigned to it or stuffing their emotions down. Or two, W has been hinting at it (or they've overheard her speaking about it to her friends) so weren't surprised when she finally told them in front of me.
In retrospect, I may have erred by not speaking up and emphasizing the fact that this is not what I want and that I would still like to work things out. I sure hope they know that but wonder if they think I agree with her decision because I didn't specifically say something when we told them.
I later told my D13 that I was very sorry this was happening and that is was not what I wanted. She said she knew and that it was okay. I know she's just trying to make me feel better but it worries me that she's trying to ignore what is happening and that she may explode later.
Have not said the same thing to D16 but I think she knows it more than my D13 does. She already doesn't get along well with my W and this is just another reason to distance from her.
Hope they will both talk with me about it soon but nothing yet.
Me 47 W 44 D16, D13 T 23yrs M 20yrs WAW/MLC + Male EA "BFF from H.S." = Misery
