New here and seeking advice

[MrNiceGuy]

I haven't even responded to the e-mail. I was thinking of simply "I'm sorry you feel that way." with nothing else, or perhaps remaining dark until something does happen.

She has great determination when she wants to - and will likely file, as she stated, to reassert her own control. I see it as another example of her being blind to her own controlling behavior and pointing the finger at my controlling behavior.

Either way, she clearly is reacting very poorly to a person she doesn't have respect for as a husband showing some backbone (or as she called it, "control").

[25yearsmlc]

Sorry I don't know all your history and only read the past 4 or 5 pages... so if thissounds like a 2 x 4, it may be one BUT I am not sure. I'm only going by these past few posts...but did you honestly feel you were really DBing in this talk with her? Your confidence went UP after this? Why? Sounds more like you made her mad and that...somehow seems to have pleased you? Or you're claiming that she "would've been angry even if I hadn't been that way"??..am I missing something?

I thought your conversation sounded very conditional. Now, perhaps it's all b/c she has been blaming you 100% for the M's problems. If so, I get that. But you'd STILL have to START THE BALL ROLLING which it says in the table of contents of DB books...you almost quoted the "before I read DB" section which was "Why should I be the one to change first?" And the book addresses exactly why we DO have to be the ones to change FIRST AND then, here you are telling her that she has to do blah blah blah for YOU to think that there's a chance.

Also you said nothing about passionately wanting to stay M..it was like you were flipping a coin and could go either way, divorce, stay married, hmmm, how do I feel at this moment??? What's with that? Like gee maybe it'd be more noble to do this CHORELIKE endeavor called marriage"...but for me as a woman, I was struck by it as being sterile and clinical and cold and UNATTRACTIVE...some sort of test or weird game, just my opinion though.

Also Sounded to me that for every "change" you'd make, you got out the measuring tape to make sure she'd be giving an amount that you'd feel was worth your time and effort. NO ONE has the same score card nor do we measure things the same way so there are parts of your M that you will not ever agree on historically. The best you can hope for is moving forward in sync. But for now, that tone is a big turn off for me, especially if you are someone who has been critical of her or unromantic in her eyes. Sounds sooo conditional. If I thought my h was primarily (not solely, but mostly) responsible for the demise of the m, and most WAS DO...then I'd be looking for 180's on his end before I'd take a real look at him. Sounds to me as if you've decided "to teach her a lesson" and that sounds more punitive to me than DBing...it's NOT your job to tell her what she needs to work on...that's just so NOT DBing...'

all you can do in the DB world is tell her what you need in a R...BUT NOT NOW--SHE WANTS OUT OF THE M....SO WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU TELLING HER ABOUT YOUR NEEDS?? SHOULDN'T THAT COME A WHOLE LOT LATER? I'm wondering if you just eliminated any chance of her seeing you as being very different, or more of the same, AND if it's pushing her into a L's arms...or court.

I mean, before the bomb, what were YOUR issues? What exactly do you "own" in your role in this? Is every problem you feel you yourself had, quickly explained by a counter fault of hers that really ends up justifying it? Like "I'd come home on time if she didn't nag so much", or "I may sound controlling but that's bc she can't take negative feedback or constructive critisizm"...??? That's not really owning it. It's just keeping score & justifying being a critical person...and I have never seen that work in a happy M or cause a reconciliation.

But as I said, i'm missing some chunks of your history. If this applies, take heed and if not, ignore it. So far, how's it working? Making her mad and filing may have happened anyway, BUT don't say it proves you were right...meaning, don't look for excuses to justify your pride talking you into a problem, only to pretend it didn't happen. Then you'll be in denial as well.

Hope I got it every single part wrong OR that something written & hashed out here helped you. Sorry if it hurt you, But that's how it hit me.

(( j ))

[MrNiceGuy]

Thanks 25.

I'd say you have it about 50/50, but I am taking in your comments and will take close consideration of each point to see what and how I did before replying to the board.

.

[MrNiceGuy]

My perception is that I'm the only one changing, or even putting an ounce of effort in to self-reflection.

My communication to W was that we still needed to figure out ourselves before we could work on resolving the M issues. Yes, I did it in a very confident way without caving in to her demands for details.

W has suggested a few times that it wasn't just me, but seems surprised that I would/could have anything to point out that she could have done wrong other than perhaps enabling my gradual sink into a low self-esteem. She expressed concern that when I went to an IC to address my workplace setbacks that hurt my confidence, that the IC should've fixed me --- but the IC was only to address the workplace situation, nothing to do with its impact on the family and M.

Throughout our M I am the one who changes based on her input. After years of her making choices, I let her, which I now know from NMMNG demonstrates lack of confidence and leadership simply for the purpose of playing nice because I was raised with 'a happy wife makes a happy life' without the understanding that it was about letting her have her way on everything, it's about balance... which honestly I didn't do during the last few years and it put to much pressure on W to be the family's cruise director and chef.

She pointed out that I am always critical of her hair and dress, and yet my memory (granted, it's my perception) tells me that I only made comment when she asked me for input and I can count my 'constructive criticism' on two hands in the last ten years. In fact, I frequently complimented her on her dress and her beauty.

She tells me 'This is not the life I wanted, I didn't want the white picket fence.', and blames me for creating an 8-to-5 lifestyle with a house. Yet, I supported her in full in going after her lifelong dream of going to law school and becoming a lawyer -- which has the requirement to remain rooted in the state that she passes the bar within. This tells me she at least participated in the choice of the 8-to-5 lifestyle that she is blaming me for now.

I don't find happiness in her getting mad, I was excited to see her finally expressing some emotion and standing up for herself, too.

I specifically stated that I'm not telling her what to do, just how I feel, and that I'm still working on improving me - which I felt was a prerequisite to identifying what went wrong with us. Yes, I did say that the easy way out is for us to simply go our separate ways, but that I wanted to work hard to learn and grow in hopes that it helps us.

I understand that I cannot 'see the forest for the trees' from my perspective, but I don't really see how I was controlling in the marriage and in this conversation.

My perception is that I stood up for myself, she didn't like that she could manipulate me or convince me she has acted appropriately, and is taking the easy way out by pointing the finger at me and making rash decisions to run away.

4x8 me.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

MNG,

You should really start your own thread, as you've now totally hijacked dcsquared's.

Puppy

[dcsquared]

lol...hey, the more the merrier in my thread I always say. If NG is getting somewhere and using my thread I'm all for it. But now I will post my own stuff to it. So yesterday morning W comes home to get ready to head out to work and looks visibly upset. I asked her if she was ok and she said no. Her life is a wreck and she doesn't know what to do. I guess the night before a co-worker of hers that works in the restaurant with her and worked with her at the previous place that OM is the sous chef at asked her what the f@#& she was doing. W asked what he meant and he said that as far as he knew the two most important things in her life were her daughter and her career as a chef and that at this point she didn't have either of them and looked miserable all the time. He told her she needed to get her sh*t together and stop the crap. Granted, this is coming from a guy who does not like me one bit. That and I guess her parents and sister both put their 2 cents worth in last week for her to quit the crap and work on the marriage. W admitted that she wasn't happy right now and that she was losing her R with D3 some and not doing the job she really wanted to do but didn't know how to change that. I just listened and gave her a shoulder to cry on. Later on that afternoon she asked me what I thought about everything and I told her well, you have a big decision to make. She got a little defensive at first when i said that but then said that yes, she knows she has to decide some things and that she can't take forever to do it. She also said that it's pissing her off that everyone is telling her to work on the marriage...that she knows everyone wants her to but she has to know it for herself before that will happen. I agreed with her on that. She said part of her just wishes that everyone else would make decisions themselves and that way she wouldn't have to make any because everyone would have walked away by then. I just said something like that's not really what you want. She said...yeah, you're right.
It hurts to see W so unhappy but I know she has to go through this on her own and find her own way out of it whether that brings her back to work on us or not so I'm just being the best friend I can in the situation and I'm there when she wants to talk and not when she doesn't. Not going out of my way or anything but being there as I would for any of my friends.
Tonight W, D3, and I are going to the Portland Trailblazers playoff game. Should be a ton of fun and the first game that D3 has been too. I'm hoping for a good night and just to have fun with W and D3 like we used to do. That would make my day.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

DC,

You handled that really, really well. One of the hardest things to do is to not jump in and rescue them, and yet many of us do, and still others come across as just a cold distant AZZ, which is not what you're looking for either.

"I love you, I hate to see you hurting, but I won't rescue you, this is your decision" is absolutely the way to play it.

Nicely done.

Puppy

[MrNiceGuy]

My bad. I have my own thread, just no feedback. But I didn't intend to hijack.

[25yearsmlc]

good point on the hijack. APOLOGIES--my last post here--

FYI, I am into DBIng and if some other book for men about keeping your nuts helps you, then maybe they have their own site or you can put something out there or start a forum just for that or whatever...but THIS is for DBing and SOMETIMES they are not the same thing... as I understood some very good men explain it, now and then, they collide. Finding that balance sounds like a challenge for you. Your last post, does not make me feel differently I'm afraid. Sounds like more of the same...justifying yourself. Not changing "UNLESS" and I don't know how far you'll get with that but honestly, I don't get the feeling you are committed to fighting for your M. I really don't, and I'm sorry. I get the feeling you want to "be right"...not necessarily happy or married to her, but you'd "prefer" marriage to her, but only on your terms...and that ain't sounding so appealing to her or likely to me...just mho.

This is hard humbling stuff, to bravely & honestly look within and see our flaws, stare at them for what they are, WITHOUT JUSTIFYING THEM or blaming another or immediatley comparing, or saying "BUT HE ALSO blah blah blah" or "I HAD TO BE THAT WAY B/C...blah blah blah".....and buckling down, committing to changing and improving ourself with NO guarantees or promises of anything from anyone...but yet, many of us did it, and others have before me and will again. I'll be forever grateful for that b/c I am a better woman for it and no matter what, that's a good thing. IT's VERY scary and as I said, very humbling. Also became a very spiritual journey for me and eventually I knew I'd be a better partner for SOME man if I met another, but so far, looks like my h and I are making it (cross fingers!) My R with God is much better for sure.
Good luck,

(( j ))

[antlers]

[quote=25yearsmlc] I don't get the feeling you are committed to fighting for your M. [quote]


It's a hard thing to realize that to be committed and fight for your marriage, you pretty much have to let go of it and detatch from your spouse, leave them alone and give them time and space, and work on yourself and become better, and not think about them anymore, and know that there are no guarantees that what you're doing will be successful as far as the marriage itself goes!