Reason to Believe on the Lake Erie Shore

[pisces9]

(( NEIL))
i am sorry you have so much pain right now. the past is so hard to look at sometimes- but it is called the PAST for a reason.

all that has occurred and we all make mistakes- if i look back i cringe too at some things ive said and done...

BUT here you are now. moving forward. moving away from the past.

all that stuff can be reduced from both your memories.

i am sorry about the car accident. i am sure that was very hard on you. i think it is good you let it out here....LET IT OUT neil. dont keep it in. thank you for sharing.

[smartcookie]

I wish we could do this over the phone, or something. I hate that I may say something to piss you off, or send you to a worse place, or that you can't hear my tone. Just know that I care, & I am trying to help. Even if I sound like I'm being a sarcastic bitch, that's not how I mean it. okay ?

<<<what's more difficult? forgiving the LBH for his f ups or forgiving yourself for putting up with them?

For me, it's harder to forgive myself. One of the side effects of the childhood abuse is to turn the blame inward on myself.

<<My issue, today, after some time to think about it, is that i'm having a ton of difficulty forgiving myself.

It will take time. You now know better, & you now are doing better. You didn't wake up every morning thinking "okay today I'm going to be a narcissitic idiot". You were trying to manage. & you had a ton of side stuff going on.

<<and why i have my doubts she'll come back.

put those doubts away for now.

<<i want you all to understand something.......at the start of our R, my W and I were not the model couple.

Seriously, I don't know anybody who is the model couple.

<<<i drove her to counseling because i told her i couldn't keep having sex with her

Okay, you gotta know I'm gonna say this with love, but why the HELL didn't you drive YOURSELF to counseling ? Why was it her problem that SHE needed to be fixed ??

<<the problem was is htat i really started to care about her......and wasn't ready to be in an R.....

Yep, that's my point. You needed C too. Save yourself first.

<<she coudln't handle it....drank about half a bottle of vodka that nite.....

so she wasn't healthy either. She should have driven herself to C.

<<that summer, she did the same thing with my roommate. we forgave each otehr.

Okay, so now you're even. You guys had a symbiotic relationship. Bees need flowers, flowers need bees. You also "do" mutual threatening wounds.

<<i got bitter. chauvinistic. i wanted to be the one to provide for her.

that was the psuedo issue...what was the real feeling behind that ?

<<then i got my job the next year..the bitterness was still there.

see, pseudo issue.

<<she'd never had an orgasm with me. let's just say she was uncomfortable with................something that would help with it. liked to give it...not to receive it....weird.

not really, but this is another topic for another day. When you're stronger. By the way, it has nothing to do with your skill as a lover.

<<i was in a horrible car accident. the other driver died. lots of guilt on my part....not all my fault i know.

I can't even imagine the strain this put on things.

<<she slowly starts withdrawing.....i start becoming controlling.....and we end up here......

seriously ? this is when you started becoming controlling ? or were you controlling & she started withdrawing ?

<<what came first? the chicken or the egg?

Mutual threatening wounds. They appeared at the same time. Symbiotic.

<<Who is it harder for a WAW to forgive? herself or her LBH?

Depends on the people, the damage, the things said, how they were said, were the fights resolved, did the relationship have good qualities, were they good parents, did they have good childhoods ? Too many variables.

I'm guessing you two didn't. Just from the college behaviors...

<<sorry for the long read.....but my W and i have some serious background stuff.....and that's why i doubt....

tonight, you may feel like you've been poisened. It's okay. It's like a toxic release from dumping all this garbage out. (not that your life is garbage, just thats how I refer to emotional pain ).

Just take it easy. Don't make any major decisions. Don't drink. Try to veg out to TV or something.

Don't call W no matter what ! Promise ?

Hey.... you did good. Hugs.

[sandi2]

what's more difficult? forgiving the LBH for his f ups or forgiving yourself for putting up with them?

I'm not sure if you stated that the way you meant to, or if I am not understanding the question. If you had said, what is more diffcult to forgive....the LBS for his f ups or forgiving yourself for walking away......then I would understand that. I understand that quesion.......but I don't know if I can answer it. I think it is a personal task that each individual WAW has to do. For me personally, forgiving myself was very hard to do. I backslide and start feeling the guilt and have to do it all over again. Even when we forgive when there has been a lot of hurt and some wayward act that has caused "distruction" in a R or family or whatever......you still have to deal with the consequences. So, I see my "guilt feelings" as part of the "fall-out" of my EA. I got off easy compared to a lot of other people. I was very blessed that worse things did not occur due to that. But, enough bad things resulted from it that I will always be "sorry" for what I did.

Now, about forgiving the LBS. Wow, that could take pages to discuss and you don't have that much thread left...lol. But, I don't really think you want to hear about Sandi. I think you want to know if your W will forgive you or if she is going to forgive herself for putting up with you.

As far as forgiving yourself (the WAW) for putting up with the LBS's f ups.......I guess I haven't thought of it quite like that. Not in the sense of "forgiving myself" for putting up with him!

You really were a bad boy.....no doubt about that! However, she seem to always go back to you. It depends if she has anything left in her "love tank" (if you are familiar with that term). I t depends if she feels like she has been a fool all these years for allowing you to treat her like crap. If she is mad at herself to the point she will not allow herself to forgive you, then don't expect another chance.

However, Neil, if there is still a drop of love in her heart for you and she can see a lot of changes and she is convinced that it is for life......then there is still hope. But, honey, this is going to take a long time to convince her of it (I think)....I know it would me if I had been M to you!

So, do you have the patient? After having so many different women over the years, can you go without a woman that long to prove to her that you want only her? Or, do you know in your heart that you can't go without a woman--and that you will date eventually--and maybe get involved with another woman? Either way, you need to really work on those changes or you are going to have the same problems all over again in the next R.

For all I know, your W may beat herself up every day for being the biggest fool ever! But, she will finally get over it and either find somebody that will appreciate what she has to give, or she will find it in her heart to forgive you......as well as herself.....and she will want to reconcile.

You are going to have opportunities for her to see changes in you without you applying pressure to her. You can give her freedom and space and let her grow. She probably needs to "find herself" again! This could all end up with a better M than what you ever had. It has happened before with other couples. But, you need to decide what you want and how hard you are willing to change and how hard you will work at being patient (if you want her back). B/c I'm here to tell you that it will take a long time. If you decide to hang with it.....it better be for the "long haul".

I probably didn't answer what you were asking. If not, try another approach and maybe I will get it the same time around.

I agree with the others. You need to take a couple of days to stop focusing on the stitch. Give your brain a rest. Go have some fun or relaxation.

Take care ((Neil))

Sandi

[LeighS]

Neil, don't beat yourself up too hard - you don't deserve all of the blame and the only thing you are going to get a big, ugly bruise. Look, your W was obviously attracted to you when you got engaged/married. She knew what you were like into before she said "I do". Do you really think that before the bomb, that you've changed so drastically that she saw somebody else than the person she married? I wouldn't bet on on it. I saw a quote somewhere, could have been here, which was something like "A man gets married and hopes his wife doesn't change and she does...a woman gets married and hopes her husband changes and he doesn't". Now, how does this relate to you? Why do feel you have to shoulder all the responsibilities of blame here?

Life evolves, you've had challenging situations, and whether or not you've dealt with them well, you did the best you could do with the knowledge and maturity you had at the time. Forgive yourself now! Tell yourself that "I, state your name, am a good man and I'm getting better by the day." You are gaining knowledge and experience that will serve to enrich your future life. But, please, do yourself a huge favor and stop beating yourself up. Accept what happened in the past as a lessons learned and go on.

We are all the products of the sum of all of our experiences - the good, the bad, the ugly - they all share in defining who we are. While you might think that the bad and ugly don't contribute positively to our being, you would be wrong. Hopefully, we learn - we move on.

[goldeylox]

I hope you are taking the evening off and doing something good for Neil. Now, a couple of random thoughts...
* Forgiving H for being a DAM, not too hard, forgiving me for not standing up for myself, hard. Forgiving myself for the pain my kids have endured (and my peception that I should have been able to shield them) almost impossible. I really don't blame H for why we got here, although I can't take ALL the credit! lol
* I don't think it was a baby #3 issue. Just a feeling I got as I read that post. I'll bet she freaked over the almost A. Is it possible guilt for what 'could have' happened?
If W has trouble forgiving herself to begin with, imaging the he!! she's living in.
* What are the positives in N's sitch? D#1 and D#2, duh.
* How does N detach? You have the girls until Sunday? Pitch a tent in the back yard and go camping. More adventure? Pitch a tent in the next county and take the little darlings camping. Too much adventure? Easy day hike.
Are you listening? GAL and be the best Neil you can be. And eat your vegetables. Peace.