Neil, I'm reading CoDependent No More right now. It's so creepy at times I have to stop reading because I finally understand what others have been telling me for years. I place too much value on H's opinion/reaction/needs/wants etc. and NONE on my own. I thought that's what a good wife did. Wrong! Peace.
Me:44, WAW hx bi-polar H:48, hx of abuse S:22, S:19, D:16 Filed Oct 08, dismissed Filed again Jan 10, dismissed Now Piecing alter persona: SuperBoots
its weird.....i've read over some ppls threads (twindad, diehard, etc) and they talked about being their W's best friend. I feel like my W doesn't want me to be her best friend... where's the line? I think i'm going down a cheeseless tunnel here......
Sometimes, what works for one, doesn't work for the other person. Like our friend Steve, who did the whole bit of being her best friend and waiting out the A's to be over and slowly winning his way back into her heart....but not everyone can do that b/c to some...it would be a "cheeseless tunnel". I think that is what your W is trying to tell you, Neil, that it isn't going to work and she just wants you to STOP IT! Sorry, for yelling. The WAW came out in me.
Okay, now I want you to be completely honest with me. Did you expect her to respond to your nice and sweet little gesters in a postive manner? Did you set yourself up for disappointment? Yes you did! Loot at this statement:
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I still feel like chit because i feel like she's rejected me all over again....
The reason you feel this way is b/c you were "expecting something" from her and SHE KNEW IT!! (Sorry....WAW, again.) How many times do we have to tell you men that woman can sense these things? We know, okay? You cannot fool us on this. If it is what the woman wants....then that is all find and dandy, but SHE STILL KNOWS! If she responds in a positive way it is b/c that is what she wants, but if she doesn't want it then it is a cheeseless tunnel. That is what your W is trying so hard to tell you in a nice way. "Please don't do these little nice and sweet things for me anymore, Neil, b/c I know why you are doing them and I don't want you to do them".....how much plainer can she get?
If you had not expected all of that to "pay off" then you would not be all down in the mouth. So....chalk it up to being a "man". You did expect something positive for your efforts. Most men do. I think women, on the other hand, learn as mothers,caregivers and a lot of other roles they have in life, that they don't get anything in return.....but then that is just my take on it. Don't want to get into a debate about it.
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The thing is, i've told her that she's not responsible for my feelings...i just have to stop acting on them towards her.
Maybe I missed something, but I don't see her trying to be responsible for your "feelings"......she just pretty much knows what they are by the way you are acting and she wants you to back off. You are responsible. I think she may have been trying to tell you that things are going to get a lot worse if you don't stop it and give her breathing room. When I was ready to walk, and my H was "smothering me to death".....I almost despised him. Is that how you want her to feel? No! But is that saying you are being responsible for her feelings? No! She doesn't want to hurt you by allowing you to continue with something that is probably turning her completely "off from you" (to be blunt).....and yet you admitted to feeling rejected all over again. The male ego is so fragile. That was not a put down, Neil, it's been a proven fact. And, I think you pretty much proved it yourself.
Anyway, mark this off as "not working" and stop doing this kind of stuff. So you are confused now. You have to regroup and think what to do. Let me give you an idea of what I felt like......I felt like I could not breathe when my H was around. I could not stand to be in the same room with him. In fact, it was all I could do to spend a few hours under the same roof b/c I did not stay in the same room. I wanted my freedom more than I wanted just about anything else in the world....at that particular time. If my H had not back completely away from me when he did and leave me completely alone and wait for me to make the first tiny move toward him......I would have left him, so help me God! That is how bad I felt toward him and nothing.....abosolutely nothing he did was right, good, or anything. I hated almost anything and everything he said or did. I could hardly bear to look at him. So see, I was in a bad shape, wasn't I?
Neil, if you will leave her alone and give her space, you may have a chance......but I can almost promise based on what she has told you, that it is not going to go anywhere but downhill if you keep this up. Something was said on another post about women wanting space so they can be with OM. that is true to a lot of extent....a lot....but, it is the "freedom" that they crave the most. If she doesn't get the freedom, it doesn't guarantee she will stop the A, but it will almost guarantee you that she won't find you attractive enough to return home again. Yes there are some exceptions here on the board, but few. Heck, I even feel like I am an exception! I didn't get the freedom, but as I have already explained, my H back waaaaaay off. So, I did get the space.
So, now you are wondering where you go from here. I think she just wants you to treat her in the same manner that you would probably treat a .........co-worker. Almost in a "professional manner" so that nothing personal is shown or felt or acted out. Everything is like in a courteous, relaxed, but almost "professional" way. Treat her the same way you would treat---almost a stranger that you are being polite to. I don't know that that is a good way to express it, and you don't have to be "cold" as ice or rude, but even if you were to go get a stranger a cup of coffee......I grant you that you would not be giving off the same "vibrations" that you were giving her. She felt those vibrations and knew what it meant.
It is hard, sweetie. I know it is and I know it hurts badly. The best way I know how to explain it to a man is to think about your high school days when you were trying to act all "cool" and pretend that you didn't really care about a girl and yet hoping to get her attention b/c of your "cool charming ways". How many girls do you remember that fell for the guy that smothered them and sniffed around after them? Not many, I can tell you that. You see, girls like the guys that are out of thier reach b/ c it is a "challenge".....just as much as the guys like those girls that are unavailable to them, or as they use to say "hard to get". She is not going to want you until she thinks she can't have you.
You can outshine every guy in town, but if she realizes that it not hard at all for her to get you back again.......then she probably won't want you as badly as if she knew you weren't so ready and available.
Do you know what would have shocked the socks off of me? If my H had said spoken in soft but firm words, "Okay, I'll tell you what, Sandi, since you want to be free....I will leave and you can be as free as much as you want,,,, b/c I have decided you are an attractive person to me anymore! I am going to go get me a life, and you can do whatever you want to do with yours!" Man, that would have gotten my attention real quick! But instead, he blew up at me and told me that he would never give me a divorce! Now, I'm not saying what I would have done at that particular point.....I'm just saying that it would have shocked me into at least stopping and shaking my head and maybe coming to my senses a lot sooner than what I did. And I think it would have made me desire him and work for his attention. That's just my opinion. Not everyone is the same.
But, back to your stitch at hand. Obviously, your W does not want you to show her "special attention" by getting her coffee things like that. If she is a moody person, she may change her mind tomorrow, but I tend to think that you are bending over backward and don't even realize it. So, you will have to work extra hard at not treating her any different than you treat anyone else. How do you do that? I think it would be to practice on everyone you know! At least as many people that you are allowed to be nice to. Treat them all the same and most of all.....you behave the same around them! So....when the next time comes that you are with the W, you will not be any different (attitude or manners) around her than you are with anyone else. You will be able to keep emotions out of it and be nice but almost act "aloof" toward her. Don't swing too far the other direction and make her think you have totally lost your marbles. Practice being suave, cool, sexy, showing a lot of personality, but... and most of all...be relaxed! That is important. It will help you not to "come on" to her or to act sulky....women hate men to do that. Which leads me back to her saying what she did about you being "hit on". Hummmmm, very interesting! You must be a good looking man or else she knows women feel attracted to you, or ......big leap here.....she still feels a little attraction herself? Well, let's not jump over the moon yet, but maybe it is just enough incouragement not to completely give up.
You dont give up.....you just try another tunnel. Keep a chart of what works and what doesn't. Stop over antalyzing everything she says. She may not mean anything about something that you have blown out of the water. It is being S that is causes you to be like this. You wouldn't even think twice about any of it if you weren't S.
As far as the pictures, I think she is just trying to co-parent here and would like to consider your feelings, as the father of her children, wanting pictures of the kids. Nothing more, nothing less. To me, she is trying to tell you that she wants to keep friendly terms......if you don't screw it up.
I talked about LL in a post a long time back and I tried to explain to you then that it is very hard to do that when a couple is S, and I don't think the majority of people "get it". A person's LL is what you do when the couple is working together and living together and have reconciled their differences. I personally don't think the LL works well when you are trying to "detach".
Okay, fingers hurt now, so I'm stopping for a few. I'll go put my 2x4 back in the closet.
You will make it. We have too much time invested in you....not to (lol).
Take care, Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Right at the end of my EA, H said he wanted to work on the R and he started doing all the things he thought i wanted. At first, i was really polite and thanked him cause i saw the effort. I didn't want him to feel bad because i didn't want whatever it was at the time. All i did was encourage that. He had no way of knowing that i didn't want it.
She told you that she wants you to stop being so sweet(basically). Part of it is exactly what sandi said, she knows why you are doing it. Even if you don't think there is a reason, she thinks she knows why... try to tell her she's wrong... not going to go well, so you just have to go with it. For me, part of the reason was also guilt. here he was trying to do nice things and i didn't want anything to do with him. It made me feel more confused and worse about what i had done/was doing. I didn't want him to be nice, honestly at the time, i wanted him gone, i wanted space so i could figure things out. Unfortunately, i didn't tell him. He eventually stopped cause he was really doing it to get me back rather than because he wanted to...
Codependancy is a pain in the a$$. It's like you know what they say shouldn't matter so much, but at the same time, it does. I'm working on that now too.
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Originally Posted By: Neilh23
ok. back to struggling. my title....reason to believe. what are my reasons to believe? does she still love me? i think so. does she like what she's seen of the new Neil? i think so. Do i have a lot to offer my W now? Yes. DOes she know this? I think so.
then why do i feel like chit and want to give up and move on with someone else?
Neil, read your four questions. "she" . . . "she" . . . "my W" . . . "she" . . .
Hey how about... Do i like the new neil? Can I be the H I want to be now? Am I doing everything I can to make me a happier man?
trust me, half my issues with my H revolve around his insecurity... if he was even half as confident in himself as i am in him, we probably wouldn't be where we are at... Be confident that you deserve to be happy. Be confident that you are a good guy. Be confident in yourself. You don't have to tell her you are confident, you won't have to wonder if she knows that you are more confident... if you are, she'll see it. Confidence is sexy!
hang in there... this is just another bump in the road, not you starting from scratch!
ann
If i can't fall in love... I'd like to fall in chocolate! ~ Author Unknown
Neil, you are hitting the same bump in the road I am. Your W gave you a HUGE note that explained a lot. She told you what you were doing wrong. You're lucky. My W's idea of a huge note is a single paragraph haha.
Anyhow, just like I said before. Act as if.....you have nothing to lose. Just like Sandi said....high school....hard to get, cool, relaxed, no big deal.
Make sure you follow up on that co-dependancy. It's a B*tch. I suffer from it as well, but haven't gone to counseling for it. I'm trying to work things on my own.
Me: 30 W: 27 Married: 9/2007 ILUBNILWU: 1/2008 W moved out 5/24/2008 W suicide 8/25/2009
Did you get what Sandi is saying??? Listen to her and apply, or I will get out her 2x4. You CAN do this. It is time for you to be the student and start applying the information you are getting. These WAW that are posting to you are giving you a huge gift of insight into their minds. Take full advantage of it and you WILL come out better in the end, no matter what happens between you and W.
You are still too wrapped up in what she thinks and feels. You are still allowing her to jerk your chain all the time. Let me ask you this, if she handed you divorce papers tomorrow, what would you do? This is something I thought long and hard about. I would not die, it would not kill me. Yes, I would be sad, but it does not change who I am or how I feel. I will still be his wife. I made a covenant in front of God and some pieces of paper will not change that.
SMW
M40/H36 T16/M14 4K B2/08 S4/08 current
Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. I Corinthians 13:7
Count me as on board with any who have told you that your biggest problem right now is that you are still finding your emotional state from your wife.
This is why DB'ing is hard.
We've spent years getting comfortable with spending our life with our spouse. We actually have begun to get to the point where much of who we are is defined by our relationship with them. In what seems to be a single, sudden blow, that tie is severed by our spouse's choice.
We come here and are told that we need to stop defining ourselves in terms of our spouse.
Ouch.
You asked, "What is/are my 'Reasons to Believe'?"
The answers you expected were things that your wife has said or done that in our eyes should give you HOPE that there will eventually be a change in her heart back towards you.
I think the only really good "Reason to Believe" is because you KNOW that you are the better man in her life for now and forever.
The WAW's who have visited your thread have given you invaluable advice in understanding what your wife might be thinking and how she might be perceiving your words and actions to her. You should re-read those words and try your best to truly digest them.
My cliff's notes version says this:
You've tried to reach your wife by compliments and acts of love - but your wife is reading those as pressure.
Becoming your wife's best friend? I think that's an awesome approach. But this is not elementary school Neil. Back then we could simply declare that we were best friends with someone.
You have to BECOME her best friend.
BECOME means that it's a process. It starts slowly, proceeds slowly, and is ultimately consumated slowly.
My male best friend did not become so overnight. It was years spent together, finding that we just kind of connected, shared lots of similar interests, and that we had gotten to know each other and our families well enough that we had a vested interest in each others well being.
You have to build this with your wife. The good news is that your years together have provided some of this already.
Think about it.
Blessings,
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
the thing is.....and i'm sorta journaling right now...feel free to respond....
the coffee. i didn't go out of my way to get it. i was getting doughnuts for breakfast for the girls and me and i got her a coffee a couple of times. I was just being nice. I'm gonna say that i just don't get why that's viewed as pursuing?
I just reread over today's posts.....thanks to all of you. You're right, twindad, she could've been a byatch about it. but she wasn't...she spoke thru love.....Hope and Kjo.....breathe and give her space..thanks...it's nice to hear those things from women too...PDT...i'm learning to trust in God. Never really had to before...but i'm getting there. Doing what's right isn't hard...
time to Man Up. Take my nuts back. GAL. Let God take control. Be a better Neil. ya'll know how it works.
ok dude...your mind is working overtime.
You are doing a GREAT JOB. Your wife is sensitive and she sees your changes. They are working. And she is ON GUARD. or some french word of the same.
It means you ARE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT.
Keep doing it.
But as Puppy says....center. Let it be ON PURPOSE. Your purpose is God. That's Manning Up.
Take heart. She noticed. Center. Itsallgood.
You've done a great job of LISTENING to her. But pay attention to her actions. Wimmin have alottawordscauseweliketotalkandwanttomakesureweletyouknowourfeelingscuzitsimportanttogetitoutandletyouknowwherewearecuzwethinkourfeelingsarewhowearebutitonlysayssomuch.
"ya'll know how it works"
Actually no. Us wimmin have no clue about you men.
But stand. I believe you're gonna win. Like Puppy. And live to tell about it and give advice. STay on Newcomers. dude.
sg Love is PATIENT, love is KIND, LOVE never fails / DB since 2001
