W and kids back (from holiday home where OM is based) today after 2 weeks away (not spoken for 11 days). Dreaded seeing her and even the kids - any mention of OM by wife or kids physically hurts. Gives me majrt tightening of the chest and i can hardly breath.
So picked my boys up and W is her normal friendly self. I totally focussed all my energy on the kids and was super dad - W like normal is very keen for a conversation. I was polite but very distant. Not by choice.
The focus she gave me was incredible. I could feel her staring at me - she commented on my reduced weight (actually heavier - just more muscle) - commented on a new pendent. She completely analysed every detail - amazing. I feel the connection between us is still there.
She reached to hold the pendant and i literally flinched at her touch - I'm 6"1 and my wee W had me flinching - so much pain she has caused me - difficult to DB when you hurt so much you can't stand to interact or touch your wife.
Then it dawned on me - i want to talk and touch my wife but the pain she has caused me with OM stops me doingjust that. Just like she wants to want to try at our R (her words) but the pain the relationship has caused her stops her.
So the plan - spend as little time with her as possible (for my ow sanity) love my boys to bits - do what i'm doing - I'm not the same person who hurt/controlled her. Support her as much as possible.
Literally from the day i met her i have loved her - she told her parents after three days of meeting me that she had met the man she would marry. We had got very out or whack though
I have the optimistic idea this event is the best thing for our marriage - just need to restart the marriage some how.
Any comments from WAW of anything else i can do / not do ? I have got no anger or resentment from her - that dosen't seem like the other WAW's ??
She has always been super friendly and is always keen to interact which also doesent seem like other WAW's.
The day after she left we went shopping together !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Everhope~ You have been getting some great support/advice from the other WAS's....I am sorry you are "here", I am sorry your children are going through this...it's a tough place to be...that being said...Let's Do Work!
"I have got no anger or resentment from her".......or for her?
I can't help but wonder if you are starting to resent her because of the other man....Follow with me for a minute... "i want to talk and touch my wife but the pain she has caused me with OM stops me doingjust that"
In order for a R/M to start to flourish again the first step is to decrease any negativity. She is going to feel your negativity. Just as you can tell when you walk in a room and people are happy or sad...she can feel your emotion. As hard, and difficult as this is...right now, just be a friend...not a husband, treat "as if...I know you are thinking, Christa, you have lost your mind, I can't treat the mother of my children without emotion...but if you treat her like a really great looking lady that you want to persue...how would you treat her? Dispell/decompress the negativity, first step, then become friends....first two step to r/m restoration.
what are your goals/180's/what are you doing to gal
"just need to restart the marriage some how."
I think you tepping back...giving both of you some time to think could help. It is also helpful in decreasing negativity.
I have, besides all of Michelle's books, read Dr. Phil's books, Gary chapman's book 5 Love Language...figure out hers and use it to your advantage, How to improve your marriage without talking about it by patricia love, and Men are from mars women are from venus, When venus and mars collide both of the latter by John Gray....these are just a few in my relationship saving library that helped me....and kept me busy during down time...which is so very important!
EVERHOPE.....you have got to stop worrying about the OM; let go, let GOD...He will take care of OM...you take care of your children. Let them be your focus. When you are feeling discouraged remember you are fighting to hold your family together...think of how your children will be affected later by seeing you be able to work this out! what a awesome lesson your kids would learn from you...marriages are for life/worth giving it your all before a D is thought about.
I know you are hurting/frustrated...if you are spiritual or religious check out joelosteen.com and rejoiceministries.com....take life one minute, one hour, one day at a time. My theory..thanks to dr phil...do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? Do you want happiness right now, or long term? The work will pay off...give it time.
Patience...patience...patience. It's the hardest part of "this"...but Everhope, you can do this, you are doing it...and kudos to you for fighting the good fight and wanting to save your marriage.
(((eh)))
I hope it helps just my two cents...questions, comments, concerns...stop by my thread anytime and let me know!! I will check in on you!
christarn
H-32 Me-29 T-10years M-4yr (10/04) Me- WAW 1/07 I filed for D 2/07 D put on hold 5/07 H re-files for D 9/08 WOW! trying MC 10/08
"Work like you don't need the money, dance like nobody is watching, love like you've never been hurt!"
What all these statements (your WAW's) mean in terms of romantic psychology is that she loves you but is not currently ATTRACTED to you.
That is also the meaning behind the dreaded "I love you, but I am not in love with you" (being/falling 'in love' is nothing more than a misnomer for being/becoming highly attracted to someone else romantically). It is also the very same cause of a phrase (seen posted by several WAWs here) like "I don't have the desire, the passion, or the spark to want be with him."
LOVE is a choice and love is manifested by ACTIONS ("love is patient, love is kind, love keeps no score of wrongs..."). A person can LOVE anyone they choose to irregardless of whether or not they are attracted to them in a romantic way. ATTRACTION is a biological, involuntary euphoric feeling that drives one to seek and obtain greater physical intimacy with someone else. The difference between a close romantic relationship and a close platonic one is the presence/absence of ATTRACTION (both R's involve "love") respectively.
What does this have to do with a WAW and Db'ing? A WAW has lost her attraction towards her LBH (i.e. "fallen out of love"); she doesn't feel like she used to towards him and she is confused, angry, and scared by that. 99% of the time, she has NO IDEA how to "recover", believes such recovery of feelings is impossible, and doesn't want to hear (much less do) that which must be done to make those "warm and fuzzy" feelings possible again. That is why WAWs say things like "it's too late now" and "we can be friends".
There are 3 elements which are needed to make re-attraction possible: 1) Emotional openness--this involves forgiveness and a voluntary dismantling of "walls" 2) LBH presenting a "new" and far more attractive package than the one the WAW has ingrained into her head over the last few years--this is where DB'ing/GAL'ing comes in. The LBH must become that strong, leading, alpha-male he was when she first was drawn to him. Very hard to appear that way when we as LBH's are crying, pleading, begging, criticizing, fixing, etc. 3) Time together--actions PRECEDE feelings and she will never get her "feelings back" by avoiding emotional/physical conversation and time spent together doing enjoyable things. She will also never have the opportunity to see, much less believe, the "new" you in #2. She MUST participate in this and find herself enjoying spending time together a little at a time...if she avoids all contact and continues to persist in just "hoping" her feelings will return, she will eventually conclude that "she tried, but it didn't come back--it is a sign that we are truly done."
It is easy to see why 'trial separations' don't work and serve no purpose other than giving both parties a chance to clear their head and DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. It is also easy to see that, despite whatever LBH's mistakes were in the first place, the WAW makes true reconciliation even more difficult by confusing her feelings (or lack thereof) with evidence that the M is doomed or should never have happenned in the first place. FEELINGS are merely a symptom of the M's problem, not evidence or proof of a M's failure, incompatibility, or hopelessness (which EVERY WAW has). Feelings are elastic NOT static, but usually the WAW assumes the opposite (esp. if the LBH does not change in a more attractive way) and chooses to let her feelings guide her right out of the M. Obviously, her having new feelings for a OM only make this prospect all the more appealing...
Interesting - i pretty much agree - any advice on the achieving the 1) element.
We've talked a lot about what went wrong and what we should have done - we've both been very open with no hostility or anger. She has used all the lines you mention.
Is there anything i can do to help her break down the walls in your opinion. General consensus seems to b give it time and don't pressure. I'm pretty sure that is our main obstacle.
She did say that she waited a year in the relationship for the "spark" to come back and it didn't.
But it wouldn't if we made no effort - like take time out for ourselves etc etc.
My W doesen't avoid contact - quite the opposite.
W just told me OM is coming down end of the week for 2 nights - suppose OM is now OR - she just seems to charging with a new relationship like our marriage never existed.
Yeah i'm getting very angry about OM - she seems to be progressing that R at full steam - in her eyes our R is dead and gone. She senses all my emotions for sure
A brief history
Bomb dropped six weeks of the best conversation connection and sex of our marriage 2 weeks of reduced sex Wife moved out but connection and conversation still good - heaps of hugging etc. three weeks later slept with OM Last three months R getting steadily more distant
She actually told me we should stop making love since we were breaking up - and then weakened the following morning. That is not how it should be surely ???
Only since she slept with Om has there been any negativity from me and i'm trying not to show it to her. We had 8 weeks of great R (although last 3 weeks of the time i could feel she just wanted to go) She just does not want to have a R with me. It doesen't seem to matter how well we connect or how good the conversation - her walls are up - past hurt has been done and she does not want to take those walls down.
Always been friends.
I could call her any day and ask her for coffee or lunch or a walk on the beach and she would say yes.
She wouldn't initiate but i think that is more in an effort to break the connection between us. Yeah she makes effort not to txt me etc.
Don't know what my goals are.
For 180 i am a completely different person - both her and my kids and friends say the same. A lot of behaviour traits have changed radically.
I don't think, like you, she would read a book about saving her relationship
When a M breaks down and someone "walks", an emotional wall has been built up by both parties--esp. the departing spouse. This wall has been constructed slowly over time and serves to shield them from hurt, disappointment, and vulnerability. They feel and act distant and "cold". It is much easier for a WAW to "not get too close" emotionally than risk getting hurt by "falling back into the same old patterns" which caused her to construct the wall in the first place.
This will be intensely frustrating to you (as it is to all LBHs--as men we naturally have a "just fix it" mentality). Read Dr. Gary Chapman's books as he talks about this all the time. There is absolutely NOTHING you can do convince/cajole/compel her to "tear down her wall". All you can do is maximize the odds that she will choose to do it herself:
1) Tear down yours first (if you haven't already) 2) Incentivize her to do likewise by presenting the attractive package we discussed before (DB'ing, GAL'ing, 180'ing, etc). Even in the best of circumstances, she will be VERY reluctant and distrustful that you are "for real". She will probably "test the waters" repeatedly by approaching-then-withdrawing emotionally. Accept this and be patient and happy (I know that sounds crazy). Don't get upset or demanding for MORE and FASTER. 3) Avoid anything that smacks of pressure or criticism. Agree with everything she says sincerely...no matter how unfair, exaggerated, outlandish, and outrageous it seems (and it will). What you resist, PERSISTS and no one makes themselves emotionally available to someone who is pressuring, guilting, or disagreeing with them.
The OM/OR thing complicates this further and I'm so sorry. I don't know what religious/moral/ethical values you and your WAW subscribe to but I guarantee you she will find ways to justify and rationalize why it is "OK" for her to involve herself extra-maritally like saying/thinking "God wants me to be happy", "I wasn't looking for a R, it just happenned", "You broke your vows first by XXXXX", etc. Just AGREE. The more you tell her she can't/shouldn't do something, the more she will want to do it. The more you try to convince her how wrong she is, the more she will be driven to prove how right she is. You may have to wait until the R with the OM fizzles on its own for her to open to really thinking about the 2 of you in a new light.
You have frequent contact which is good because you have OPPORTUNITIES for her to see you in a new way. I know some WAWs here have written about how seeing their estranged H seemingly "move on" have shaken them to the point of realizing what they have to lose--don't know enough to recommend that or how to implement it, but you definitely have to show that you don't NEED her and will be fine and strong WITHOUT her.
Very good advice. Must admit my W has always remained quite open but "normally' she is very open so i suppose it's just a matter of levels.
Totally agree with the wall idea. Mine went down as soon as the bomb was dropped
Just after i read your mail i got a call from my son and then W got on the phone (I'm trying to avoid talking to her for a while just to get myself together a bit).
She had been on a course about control and power in relationships and spent 20 minutes speaking about our relationship (past tense). The first time in 2 months she has brought up relationship and the first time ever i just let her speak and just validated her points. 180 for me cos normally i do more than 50% of the talking which i know is wrong.
I had already seen a control wheel and knew what my behaviour had been like. I sincerely apologised (with tears) for my actions as i am truly sorry. She says she has forgiven me but not forgotten
W also made the point she knew now that she had to stand up more for what she wanted with friends and in relationships.
A new comment was she had given so much of herself to me and the kids she felt like she had lost herself.
W said she spent a lot of time thinking about me while away and on a few occaisions knew i was going to call (to speak to S) just before the phone rang.
She gives the feeling that she is trying to undermine in her eyes the changes that i have made. She has always seems resistant to fully accept them.
W defineately going through the relationship and pulling out all the worst moments
Yeah we value R more than marriage but my wife has still used every excuse to validate OM. Not sure what will happen there but completely agree with your comments. Without him our chances of reconcilling would be so much higher.
Strange WAW because she never tried to change the bad parts of our M (her words) and has remained fairly emotionally open. That might be because she has completely given up and sees no point having walls around something which is already gone. Don't know
W also mentioned getting property sorted out.
W still gives feeling our R is absolutely over - even intimated me getting another woman perhaps to help pay the mortgage on the house.
Reasonably sure that at the end of the conversation she very nearly said i love you" but held back.
Working on that want her not need her thing and getting my life together.
W comes round unexpected for breakfast. Ends up lounging on the bed talking for an hour. Very chirpy
Suggested i might want the kids for three nights per week instead of 2 when i am less busy
Tells me about more revelations that she has been having - this time re children - that she has just realised how burdened she has felt for years.
Also when she is not being demanded upon how she is returning to her "soft" self as she used to be.
She got tears in her eyes then and we ended up hugging on the bed for ages. I could feel her consciously stop the hug although i know she didn't want to.
She said she had been wanting to hug me for ages.
W looked out the window and said "it still feels like home"
Resisted the urge strongly to say "what the f***k are we doing being separated"
Just acknowledged all she said and was as warm and friendly as i could be. Not talking and just listening and acknowledging and letting her go at her speed seems to be working. No pressure
Spending time with her looking in her eyes absolutely messes me up. I am trying to reduce contact for my own good but thought this time was worth the pain of the benefit.
If i had read the above anywhere else on this forum i would have thought a big leap forward - i my situation knowing my wife i just don't know. I keep thinking she is different but if i'm objective she seems to be a typical WAW - really not sure
Anyone got any comments - go for you life because I'm getting dazed and confused
I think i loved you from the first moment i saw you. I've always thought you were incredibly special and capable of so much. I fell in love with the soft person that you are just as you fell in love with the vulnerable strong person that i am.
I vowed at some stage (not sure if it was to myself or to you) that i would always love you and do all i could to allow you to be as happy and fullfilled as possible.
Life and events and my perception of life got the better of me and that vow just seemed to spiral away. I've realised I was in constant fear of letting my family down and not being able to provide for them (remember the 100's of CV's i sent when you were pregnant). I didn't know then how else to contribute. I have been terrified of not being good enough for a long time. I think i became negative towards you because you had no realisation of my fear but how could you if i didn't tell you ?
I hate it that you felt controlled by me - it is the absolute opposite of what i wanted to you to feel. Given the chance I would spend the rest of my life showing you that i am not that person.
I feel my mistakes in not allowing someone i care about to be as happy as i could. They are my regrets and failures to accept and I have taken responsibility for my actions which have contributed to the situation we are now in. I have relived almost every day of our time together and yeah i know what i was like to be around. That person will never be here again.
You have your demons, i know, but they are yours.
I understand how you could loose the feeling of being in love with me and why you had to tell me you were leaving.
You, who saw me as being golden when we met, saw me change and you have seen that person since then.
Two people who have spent so long with each other looked into each others souls and finally saw each other.
The connection, the spiral love cuddles, the conversation, the support, the kissing, the love making - all amazing. We finally got it right
I felt your confusion and then you said you still had to leave.
We seemed to have so much going for us, we miss each other, we're connected, we care for each other and we love and understand each other.
The feeling of being in love can and does come back. It's a choice to allow yourself to love me again. You are the most emotionally intelligent person i have ever known and you can do anything. Time, effort , forgiveness of the hurt I've caused you and trust that i would always treat you as the soft poet that sometimes needs a quiet dark place. Imagine how wonderful it would be if I'm right - imagine the feeling of love, together with the understanding that we have.
You and I can have whatever life we want - I want to live my life with my wife and family
Anyhow - I can't change your mind - all i can do is tell you how i feel.
Tell me why i shouldn't send it. I kind of figure i have absolutely nothing to loose. She seems to be totally gone with other R. It gets the idea of sending a mail off my mind
