Pornography is NOT equivalent to having an affair. Pornography is NOT equivalent to pursuing other women.
Pornography is, for a man, what reading a Romance Novel is, for a woman: the indulgence of a sexual fantasy for the purposes of sexual arousal. The different pathways taken by men and women to reach that state are indicative of our gender differences with regard to intimacy and sexual arousal. Women tend to reach sexual arousal via the route of relationship and emotional intimacy: hence the desire for a story-line and an intimate knowledge of the characters before the hot sex scenes begin. Men tend to reach sexual arousal much more easily, via the route of visual stimulation and physical touch, with emotional intimacy to follow --> with the woman they love. Pornography provides only the first part of this formula: visual/audio stimulation, but for a man, that's enough to indulge the sexual fantasy.
The only time pornography is a problem is if it is taken to an extreme, as with almost anything. If it becomes addictive and the only way that someone can become aroused, then it's time for some counseling.
The point is this: Men and Women, both in and out of marriage, have sexual fantasies. They're healthy and normal and NOT an indication that someone is looking to cheat on their spouse. Whether through day-dreams, night-dreams, erotic stories, romance novels, pictures, or videos, sexual fantasies are a safe way for someone to explore their sexuality and what really turns them on without anyone getting hurt or any marriage vows getting broken.
In general, this is yet another example of how the basic gender difference between how Men and Women approach sexual intimacy gets misunderstood. And the husband gets labeled shallow, animalistic, and perverted by a wife who likely has a whole bookshelf full of romance novels (I'm being generic here, Blackwell, not aiming this at you in particular).
We really have lot to learn about each other, don't we?
Best regards,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I can see from the man's point of view why they like pornography and agree with the differences in men and women and their sexual arousal. In fact, I can live with the porn, but as I mentioned earlier it's the men seeking women ads (in our city) that is disturbing. He says he is just curious, but I think he's still checking out the scene in case he decides he's not getting what he wants. I worried that now that he has had the thrill of an affair that he will never be satisfied at home - he has the fantasy of a woman that will do anything with him at any time. I understand that he should get his physical needs met, but shouldn't I also get my emotional needs met?
You said in your original post: "I thought we had made a non-verbal agreement to just live this way and was OK with it, apparently he felt rejected and was starting to hate me."
See how you assumed that you two had made a non-verbal agreement, but that assumption bit you in the butt? Well, just from reading your sitch, it seems you still don't get the whole picture, but hey - that's normal, it takes time. And also I am sure you have been through a horrible emotional time by discovering his affair, hearing him on the phone with her, etc.
But when you said this in your last post: "I understand that he should get his physical needs met, but shouldn't I also get my emotional needs met?" it makes me think you still aren't "getting it".
Yes, you should get your emotional needs met. But if you shut down and withdraw, how is he supposed to know how to meet them? You said before that you just assumed you and he were both ok with not having sex. This was incorrect, right? So maybe now he is assuming you are ok without having your emotional needs met. He is making a poor assumption but...you have done that before, too. See how easy it is for us to take each other for granted? See how important it is to discuss these things?
Have you gone to marriage counseling? You will both need to learn new skills so you don't fall back into old patterns, and you are going to need some individual counseling to deal with the pain of his affair.
You are right in thinking that the affair was wrong and there is no excusing it. But if you love him and you want this to work, you can't wait for your emotional needs to be met without constant work at making him aware of what they are... and at the same time, constant work at making sure you understand his physical needs and meet them.
As for the mean and horrible things he said to the OW which you overheard on the phone - honey that is horrible and I'm sorry you had to do that. But yes, it is entirely possible that he didn't mean any of it. Try to think of the sex-starved person as being abducted by an alien and a whole new, different personality can come forth and rule that person for a time - especially into an affair. It doesn't excuse him, it is just true for many people who cheat - - they end up being someone they are not, and they don't even recognize themselves later when they snap out of it.
As far as the dating sites - I agree with you that this is a concern. If you two are to rebuild trust, I think there must have to be some boundaries in place...something to discuss in counseling.
Please do not think that you and he can "fix" this on your own without counseling. After I had an affair, my husband tried to forgive me and we both tried to move on. We did well for a few years but...old habits came back, we didn't talk about them, we didn't have any help from any outside resources, and we foolishly thought we were mature enough to handle it on our own.
Divorced now...due to incredibly naive thinking such as that above.
You have been given some excellent advice from all of the above! I would like to add my two cents worth on the dating sites. Depending on which ones he is looking at, essentially these are amatuer (sp?) porn. If he is looking for a hookup, big problem! But, I will tell you, that for some guys the attraction to porn isn't the airbrushed perfect model women seem to be worried about, it is the real life women. The reason for this is that here is a woman who is demonstrably sexual in a way that a man can understand. That is what makes it so attractive and interesting. It is not the other woman so much as the fact that there are women who really are into this. This can drive the fantasy that maybe one day my wife would be like this for me. That doesn't mean the pictures etc, just really interested in sex. It is not the perfection of appearance that usually gets a guy going. The reality of our wives is great. The bigesst turn on is that they are turned on by us. That is the biggest ego and relationship need for a man. You are more than likely not competing with these women. Your husband may or may not fall into this group, but there are some additional thoughts for you.
.....but as I mentioned earlier it's the men seeking women ads (in our city) that is disturbing.
I agree with you here: if the man has already had an affair, and is supposedly trying to repair his marriage, then I think you have a right to ask him to refrain from solicitations on dating sites. It creates the exact suspicion that you already have.
Originally Posted By: blackwell28
I understand that he should get his physical needs met, but shouldn't I also get my emotional needs met?
Yes, you should. The only way a troubled marriage gets fixed is if BOTH partners actively work together to begin meeting each other's respective needs: in order to rebuild their close friendship, trust, respect, and mutual fondness for each other. That takes time, and as has already been said, I'd also recommend the help of an outside counselor. You're looking at a slow, and sometimes painful, process, but a doable one.
Hang in there,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Blackwell...I have to ask about this " I thought we had made a non-verbal agreement to just live this way and was OK"...WHY in the world would you assume you had made a non-verbal agreement on something like this?
I'm not coming down on you about that, but seriously WHY, in a marriage, would you "think" (think=assume) that this was the case? You two had lost the intimacy in your marriage (hence the lack of sexual desire)...you two had some major issues going on in your marriage (no question there). Was it easier for you to believe there was a non-verbal agreement, because that was easier for you to deal with than dealing with the issues? I ask that because so many people choose to avoid issues...rather than addressing them, for a variety of reasons: the time it takes to address things, money for therapy, the mere fact that they really don't want to take that close of a look inside themselves. It's just EASIER to avoid doing all of that. Assuming you had a non-verbal agreement seems like avoidance to me.
Now, having said that...there is NO excuse for cheating. Cheating is a choice someone makes, everything that is done along the way that person can make the choice to say "no, I'm not doing this." They also have the choice to say "I've had it with what's going on in this marriage, I want a divorce"....before they seek anything outside of the marriage (often that will get their partners attention). Cheating, ultimately is a choice that is made by the cheater.
Now, you have your own responsibility for the state of your marriage...there's no denying that, but NO ONE can make another person cheat.
With whom do you suggest he get his sexual release, if OW and porn are both unacceptable, and you're unavailable to him?
Puppy Dog Tails, In response to this, I have told H that I don't agree with porn but if he chooses to do that I will not get mad about it. I still don't think it deals with the deeper issues, it's just another escape from reality. I truly would like to see our sex life improve and it has, but I find that my H is so defensive now, that he doesn't like to discuss it. It seems that just because he is the HD spouse, that I am the one that has to do all the changing which is frustrating. Feels like a catch 22, if we are not intimate he will cheat, if we are I feel like I am being used for his enjoyment only and that he probably still would prefer affair where there is no resentment or baggage.
I will throw in my 2 cents...having been in a similar situation although ours was not a sexless marriage but rather a marriage where I felt happy and H was miserable...he held on to times past where there was rejection (not intentional on my part)
Let me get to my point...I don't agree with porn as this helped fuel my H's desire to want what he felt he didn't have...I don't condone affairs...
My H is now home...no porn...no affairs, emotional or physical...we love each other and after 2 years apart we have worked through a lot...
By depriving your H you left him feeling unloved...that is a terrible feeling...I watched a program on men who had affairs...ALL of them said the OW made them feel "desired"...how? by wanting them...physically, emotionally....
AS for the way your H talked...I wouldn't hold on to that...desperation on his part probably led him to do and say things that he regrets inside now...but at the time would you really expect him to tell an OW how wonderful you are and then expect her to fulfill his needs...she had to feel "desired" by him as well...it is a two way street...
My H also lied to my face...repeatedly...until I had proof in hand and then he couldn't look me in the face when he did admit it...he was ashamed...he felt guilt...that is a terrible thing to live with and it will eat away at a person...which is why forgiveness is so important...
It is interesting that you say you are now more sexually aware...because before my H ever had an affair...about 6 years previous he became involved online...EA...when I found out I was devistated...and my desire for him kicked into high gear...like in my subconscious I knew I was depriving him of feeling loved...men don't think like women...we can't think like them...we need to understand that...and not relate their actions to our feelings...
I know this might not make much sense but I hope you can talk openly with your H...really try and "hear" him...and work together on rebuilding with a solid foundation...
It seems that just because he is the HD spouse, that I am the one that has to do all the changing which is frustrating. Feels like a catch 22, if we are not intimate he will cheat, if we are I feel like I am being used for his enjoyment only...
When a marriage is broken in some way, the fault lies squarely with both partners. Period. And to fix it, each partner much accept responsibility and work to fix themselves. One person may begin this process, but both partners must finish it. Nothing else works.
Your spouse needs to realize his contribution to the conditions that led his affair. If this is feeling all one sided to you, like you're the one being asked to make all the changes, then something is wrong -- he's not doing his part.
Have you looked into marriage counseling? You're situation seriously warrants it. You both have a lot of issues to work through.
Best regards,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
