Well, here I am starting a new thread. My last one, "I'll think about it tomorrow," was way over the 100 mark.
The last time I posted, I mentioned that my H finally told me he didn't think he loved me anymore. I mentioned all the things that he does that says to me, Oh, yes, he does. However, I do wonder if he's doing those things out of guilt for how much pain he's caused me and the fact that he just can't stand hurting me anymore. I guess only he can answer that question. But the things he does and says seem to come so naturally. If I could block out the events of the last year, everything would seem so normal, except that he actually said he doesn't think he loves me anymore.
This past long holiday weekend we did so much together, and had a good time. Friday was H's birthday. We went for a long motorcycle ride through the mountains and had lunch at the beach (yes, the beach where OW lives). It seemed almost like my H was making a statement to me. He doesn't avoid that area because of her. We've shared many happy memories there. It seems like he wants to keep overlaying his and my bad memories with new good memories of the area.
That evening we barbequed steaks and shrimp. Just the two of us. Kids were all gone. I told him for his B'day we could do anything he wanted in the intimacy dept. Things were going nicely, but then he couldn't take it to completion. He was so embarassed. I told him I was, too. He couldn't understand that. Said it was his problem, not mine. Well, funny thing is his problem IS my problem, and visa versa. I explained to him how it makes me feel very undesireable when he has trouble like that. He tried to tell me how much he DOES desire me, but he feels he doesn't deserve to be intimate with me. Not sure if that's the problem or if there's a medical problem. All I know is that each time that happens it makes it more difficult the next time, which only makes him (and me sometimes) tend to want to avoid it. Boy, I sure never thought we'd have a problem like this. No matter what was happening in our lives, H never had a problem with intimacy. So, I wonder sometimes, is it a problem because he doesn't love me anymore, doesn't desire me. Or, is it because of his self-loathing; his feelings of how he doesn't deserve any of this?
At that point I told him that at times like this it would be nice if he could at least tell me he loved me. He did. He said, "I do love you." I told him that I hadn't meant to pressure him into saying those words, but just that it would make things a little easier if I knew at least he loved me. He said, "You're my W. You're the mother of my children. I want things to be good between us again."
I, of course, still struggle with my own feelings regarding my H. I feel the same as he does -- he's my H. He's my family. He's my friend. I know I love him for all those things. But the fact is, he has wounded me deeply and I'm just not sure if I can live with that, especially in light of the fact that he's now saying he doesn't love me. What a mess!!
The other night during the "I don't love you" conversation and trying to decide how we'd proceed, my H said, "don't be afraid to get angry with me." I thought that was an interesting thing to say. Last night I told him something disappeared off my home page on my computer. His reply was, "What did you do wrong?" This is the norm for him. Things don't just happen -- you did something wrong. That ticked me off and before I could stop myself I went off on him -- "I didn't do anything wrong. Turned on the computer this morning and it was gone. Why is it that everything has to be somebody else's mistake?, " etc. H smiled !! He actually smiled during my tirade. Then said, "Let's go take a look." He figured it out, then said, "you must have clicked on this tiny spot here." "I wouldn't go near that area. Those are my stock quotes. I have no reason to put the cursor there, " etc. Again, he smiled a rather satisfied smile. I thought that was rather curious. Maybe, like I said in my pprevious thread he's just looking for a little bit of normalcy -- wanting a little bit of the old me back.
So, anyway, the question is: is it love or is it guilt? His actions bespeak love and devotion. But I can't help wondering if it all stems from his guilt and his quest to cause me no more pain. Whatever the reasoning, hopefully if he keeps acting-as-if the love that I think is still there will break through all the negative feelings he has.
Does it really matter, at least in the short run? Hollywood paints such a ridiculous picture of love and marriage that it throws off our perspective. I am in a similar spot as far as the "is it love" question. I am pretty sure my W doesn't deeply love me right now but I have gotten over that. We have good times together, enjoy each others company, parent well together, and have good intimacy. On the surface it is great but I have little confidence that it is forever. I think we need to be happy for today instead of trying to be happy for a lifetime. Will it end tomorrow? Maybe, but why not be happy until it is over. Does my W have to love me for me to be happy? I used to think so, but not anymore. I am traumatized by even the thought of death because of something that happened to me as a child. Because of this I now start every day thinking that this could be the last day my W and I spend together on this earth. I try to operate on that premise. Sometimes that gets lost during the day but I at least try to start out that way. Why not be happy everyday with our SO until they are gone and then try to be happy without them. I don't want to ever lose my W but if she chooses to leave or the Lord takes her from me I will go on. It will definitely be different but it doesn't have to be worse. People will always come and go from our lives so don't count on them.
I see marriage and love seperately now. How many married people are truly in love and how many people are in love but not married? I am a business person and I now see M like a business partnership. Does it have to perfect? Not at all but we should make it as good as both partners can. We have memories, mixed families, and children together. Those items will be there forever regardless of the outcome. I don't need my W to love me to be married to her but I do need her to be a good "marriage partner"(good parent, good friend, good lover). We have invested a lot in our partnership so it is not wise to dissolve it at this point.
My W and I had quite a whirlwind romance early on and it is now being rekindled in this rough time. That "love" comes and goes depending on circumstances and I think some people expect it to be "magical" all the time. Here is the bottom line: Marriages are definitely not perfect but you have to determine is it "perfect enough" for me. I am personally content with mine and am doing what I can to make it better to give her the time to be able to say ILY again to me. It may never come but if I "feel" loved does it really matter?
Your views on love and marriage mirror my own. I have always felt that in a long-term relationship love and passion wax and wane. Many times over the years I have not felt passion for my H and maybe that caused me to question my love for him, but I was mature enough to understand that given time and a little prodding those feelings would return. They always did.
I think a lot of people, perhaps my H included, feels that if desire and passion are missing that it must be because the love is gone. I think this is just a natural state of being with the same person year after year and dealing with the everyday ups and downs of life. Boredom!! And then when someone else comes along and makes them feel those intense feelings of passion we all felt at the beginning, it is mistaken for love. We all crave that feeling to return from time to time. The trick is to make it return with our SO's.
I agree that marriage is also a partnership. My H and I work pretty well as a team. We got sidetracked for a while, but we seem to be pulling together again. We've got a great friendship. We love doing things together. But, unfortunately, I think my H is one of those that thinks if he's not feeling those "tingly" feelings, he must not love me. He is also having a very hard time forgiving himself for the A. He can't fathom that I've forgiven him and still want him. He doesn't feel that he deserves to be loved. Basically, he hates himself for what he's done. I am a constant reminder to him of "what he is" because now I know "who" he really is. I've told him that I didn't believe that the person who betrayed me is the real him. He wouldn't be feeling such remorse and self-loathing if that were the real him. He has a hard time looking me in the eye. When I look at him he feels humilation and disgust for himself. He has said he's wanted to run from all the pain he's caused me and himself, but he knows he'll just carry it with him.
I guess with all those negative emotions it would be pretty hard to feel love. He's told me he questions himself almost daily about how he could have done such a thing if he really loved me. His only answer is that he must not love me. I don't think it's true, but I'm not about to argue with him about it.
Since he finally told me the truth about how he feels, I've felt at peace with the situation. All I ever really wanted was to know the truth. I feel exactly like you spoke of above: things are very good in so ways right now. I'm just going to enjoy my life and be as happy as I can. If this situation has taught me anything it's that nothing is a sure thing. I never in a million years would have thought my H and I would be in this situation. Life is very strange.
You're right, we absolutely don't know what tomorrow will bring. I've talked about this with my H before. We need to be kind with each other and let each other know how much we care in whatever way is comfortable for us. Like you, I'd hate for my future to not include my H, but I am a very strong person and I want to be happy -- so, I will.
Thank you so much for your insights on this. I have a new resolve to just love my H and kids unconditionally without a need for any ILY's in return. If the people in my life know they are loved, I can get happiness out of that.
I am glad you agree because sometimes I feel like my views are a little cold. They are chilly but real. Once I found this feeling I quit being a doormat and became a realist. I could have stood on my head for my W and she would of just used me. I stood up for myself and quit being afraid of D and life improved dramatically. Doing things for yourself and finding strength and confidence make you more attractive. It certainly seemed bassakwards at first but now I am a believer. My only fear is that now what if I "outgrow" her and become the WAH. You and I have worked hard on ourselves but what have our SO done? In my eyes they now have some catching up to do. The difference is we have been there and know a little time and guidance will help them find their way just like we did.
I hope some more people on this board take the proactive steps for themselves. I guess what I mean by this is love and cherish your SO but don't live for their love. If they have come to this board they want to have a good M but it may not be with their current partner. I watched my BIL doormat his way right to D. My SIL told me that if he would have only shown some resolve and strength it would not have deteriorated to D. She lost respect for himand that was the end of it. He lived for her and lost her because of it. It certainly doesn't seem right but that seems to be how it works in today's world.
I couldn't agree more with your comment about getting happiness out of others knowing they are loved. I have felt this way for a long time and only recently understood it. Quick question. Shouldn't unreciprocated love be seen as unconditional and why in the heck can't our SO see that if we stayed around when we felt very unloved that they are getting unconditional love from us? My opinion, they are fools, that is why!
I don't think you are cold-you even opened my eyes a little to a different perspective which is a good thing because we can get lost in our own. I do agree if your spouse thinks your living for them that's not going to make you very attractive to them. So funny how things turn around. All our M life I always flet my husband cared more for me-now the tables have turned. Somehow I will get it turned back around. It feels "safer" that way. I guess I have a need to be in control that way. Not that I don't love him-I do, but I also NEVER in a million yrs. would have thought he would have an A. Well, he did. For 2 1/2 yrs before I found out. We were also separated for 6 months. Not good. I was a basket case. I am tired of being a basket case, and I cannot live my life thinking my happiness depends SOLELY on him. Makes me WAY too needy, plus I really don't like myself much like that. I'm changing. Such is life-the only sure thing in it is change. Rachel M.
I also always felt my H loved/cared for me more than I did for him. You're right. It does feel safer that way. Unfortunately, though, that made me take his love for granted and he eventually felt I didn't love him at all -- maybe didn't even like him very much. This wasn't true, but if that was the way he felt, it was true for him. It left him "open" for the OW's advances. So I must take some of the blame.
You guys may have hit on something for me, though. I've posted that a couple of times recently I've blown up at my H -- once about a month ago I told him he was being a jerk to the kids when we were on vacation. He gave me a very surprised look and changed his tone immediately. The other time was just last night when I got mad at him about something, and he SMILED at me.
I'm thinking he wants a little of the old wifey back. He doesn't like me catering to him. He told me the other night it was okay for me to get angry with him. Now, I've decided to bring back more of the "old" me, but with all of the improvements I've made.
So many people don't understand what unconditional love is. Even if our S's do understand, they may choose to ignore it because it causes them too much guilt.
Unconditional love is truely a gift that not many people are not able to give, let alone receive. It has only been recently that I've been able to DECIDE to love my H unconditionally without any expectation of that love being returned. Of course, it's only been recently that my H told me he wasn't sure he loved me -- but I've had my suspicions all along that was what he was feeling. Probably because I've felt those same things myself in the past. I just chose to ride out those feelings instead of acting out with an A.
Also, in my heart I don't really believe that my H doesn't love me. I think he's struggling with a lot of negative feelings about himself. It's pretty hard to love someone else when you don't even like yourself. I know, because I've been there.
My H told me once that he felt I didn't love him for many years, but he stayed with me because of his love for me and our family. I can finally relate to what I must have put him through. So, if he was willing to live that way until I "came around", I think I can do the same for him.
I have a lot of faith in his love for me. Maybe I'm being unrealistic. Maybe I'm being naive. But I've trusted that he loves me for so many years that it's just hard to contemplate that he doesn't love me anymore. Besides, I feel he loves me. Perhaps that is more important in the long run.
I have often thought over the years that I love and care for my H more than he does me. He had a very bad childhood (had to learn to take care of himself when he was about 8 years old..learned early that he only had himself to depend on)and I feel that he never really knew what "real" love is all about. I started our M doing everything I could to show him that what a very loving,caring R was all about. Even when the kids came along I made sure he never felt 2nd place. Our problems began when I stopped doing alot of the "little" things I have always done for him. I stopped because he basically had stopped showing me or telling me how much he appreciated me and all that I did for him. He has always been basically selfish but that got worse. I shut down emotionally and that made him think that I no longer cared and that I didn't understand his needs. He figured he'd lost everything so why not have an A and try to find some happiness. He was amazed that I forgave him for the A. I tried to explain to him that my love for him was deep and strong and "unconditional" but I wonder sometimes if he really understands that. He seems to have just put all the unhappiness and the A out of his mind...I envy his ability to do that. I will never forget what happened but I no longer need to talk to him about it so I am sure he thinks I have also put it out of my mind. I "re-adjusted" my way of thinking and developed a "new attitude" about a lot of things. This has made ME happier. I did it for ME,not him!! He reaps the benefits but I feel better about myself. I no longer worry "will he do it again". I feel that if I continue the way I am going,he will have no need to "find happiness" somewhere else. I take things a day at a time now. I cherish all the time we have together now and no longer fret about long hours at work and time spent on the golf course. I enjoy NOW and will take care of tomorrow when it gets here. Will my M last another 33 years? God,I hope so but if it doesn't I know I will survive because I now feel good about myself,I have more confidence and I am a survivor!! You are a survivor Matilda!! You hae done all you can do to show your H love and caring. It is up to him to accept it for what it is or reject it. Love means different things to different people. Some say I "love too much" and maybe I do. But all I know is that I love my H and I love showing him how much. It makes me feel good to do "little things" for him. It sounds like he wants you to lose your temper and disagree with him sometimes. If that's what you used to do then by all means "be yourself"! Maybe he needs to see the Matilda of "old"!! Maybe that will make him feel that things are "back to normal". Maybe he thinks that you are "holding back" because you don't want to "upset" him. Maybe he just wants things the way they used to be. Oh,I do know that things will never be completely the same but I am talking about the daily,everyday normal things you both used to do. The main thing is that MATILDA IS HAPPY!! Do what you need to do for YOU!! Only you know what you can live with and what you can't. You can't live his life for him and you can't "make" him be happy. You can't "depend" on him to make you happy. Everyone is responsible for their own happiness. You can do things to and for one another that gives happiness. If you love him...love him completely and with all your heart. Just remember that what constitutes "love" for you and your H isn't the same things that constitute "love" for other couples. BE HAPPY MATILDA...YOU DESERVE IT!!!!!! your friend,pfroglady
I've MISSED you!! I just posted a long reply over on the Infidelity forum to Stronger. Sure takes a lot out of me these days to keep going over everything.
Oddly enough, Pfroglady, I am happy!! I am at peace with everything -- for the time being. I'm not really sure why, but ever since my H told me he doesn't love me I've been able concentrate more on me. You'd think I'd be going to pieces all over again, but it's the opposite. I'm actually more content than I've been in months. Go figure.
I realize my H has many demons to contend with. I can't help him with that. He must do it on his own. That is a very liberating thought for me. I just continue to do for him what I can. I know he appreciates how I've reacted to all this, but I think he is wary also. Can't believe it. He's probably still waiting for the other shoe to drop. He can wait a life time.
Besides, things are really good with us right now (taking the fact that H said he doesn't love me out of the equation ). What more can I ask for? I have a very kind, thoughtful, for all intents and purposes loving husband. I'll just try to guide him through the mine field of his negative emotions back to the love that I KNOW is there.
quote:I think you're right in that your love for your W may never reach its full potential, but that doesn't mean it won't be a very strong, unwavering love.
quote:But, unfortunately, I think my H is one of those that thinks if he's not feeling those "tingly" feelings, he must not love me.
I can sorta relate to what you mean by the "tingly" feeling you speak of concerning your H. Although your H's and my situations are different, I once had that feeling when being around my W. That feeling is gone, and Im sure that b/c of the guilt your H carries it might be the same for him also. Yes, like you said that doesnt mean that we cant still have a strong M, but once you've experienced that feeling and know what it's like, it's so hard to settle for anything less. Know what I mean?
I understand this is a little opposite of what Tbone just posted above, but not everyone can approach their situation from his perspective. I cant and dont want to look at my M like a business patnership. I want(ed) to love my W to my fullest potential. I want(ed) a good, fulfilling M. I am by no means knocking your views Tbone, for everyone's is unique and different.
Keep giving him time as your doing, and as Im doing for myself and hopefully that "tingly" feeling will come back around. I miss it. I miss that feeling dearly.
![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon}
I just posted a long reply over on the Infidelity forum to Stronger. Sure takes a lot out of me these days to keep going over everything. ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon}
). What more can I ask for? I have a very kind, thoughtful, for all intents and purposes loving husband. I'll just try to guide him through the mine field of his negative emotions back to the love that I KNOW is there.