Well, look, you DO have a relationship with her, and you will have one for a very long time. You are parents of the same people. Unless you or she totally walks away from your kids as well as their spouse, they will be able to see how you are doing, and be able determine if it could work for them.
One of the problems we encounter when we are in the midst of this painful situation is that we loose our perspective of time. At the moment, it seems like time is crawling, maybe even going backwards. As you learn to detach and make yourself a better person, time moves more quickly, and you and she will see the progress. And as silly as it seems, time does make the heart grow fonder if you let it and don't try to force it.
There is also an element of comfort in the known, as opposed to the unknown. There was a time in your marriage where it was very comfortable and happy, and she does remember that (somewhere under all that haze...). As time goes by and the fog clears, she will remember it better, and by then you will hopefully have shed much of the painful and annoying behaviors as you make yourself better. And your kids will have been telling her about how nice and fun you are!
The biggest thing to remember is that it is not about "going back", but re-starting again with renewed goals, perspectives and respect. The basis of all that needs to be built beginning now. It can certainly be built upon things past, but many of the things past are best left there. Move ahead from now, make yourself better from now, and bring along the stuff from the past that works and shed that which doesn't. She WILL NOT give up on the decision to quit that stuff in the past that didn't work. Don't forget that. That stuff needs to be gone. She very likely will give up the decision to quit the marriage if she convinces herself that it can fulfill her sense of purpose and bring her closer to her goals.
See, she is working this "doing more of what works and less of what doesn't" already. She just doesn't realize it or frame it the way you need to. What she is doing now is working better for her than the stuff that wasn't that she left. Our jobs are to make the stuff that she's doing now appear to be not working, as compared to how the marriage will be working when she returns and recommits to it.
This stuff works, and as you may be able to see, our WAS's are making a form of it work for themselves, just in a twisted way, and without realizing it. If you can turn this thing around in your mind, you can see what is working for them, and maybe get some clues from that. (This all just occured to me, so bear with the free-form thought here...)
You are asking the right questions, and you are thinking in the right direction. Keep it up.
Just wish I could accept that time is my friend. It's not from a lack of patience, but rather I feel (fear?) that every day that goes by makes her feel more trapped because I won't leave, and I believe she's desperate to "move forward". If there simply was no option of D (there isn't unless she makes up something about cruelty and she already said she won't but who really knows), I could accept time and take it as it comes. As it is, I feel like there's a ticking clock and she'll reach a point where she'll do anything...
Thanks Z and Hope4us hang with us. There are a lot of bright people who are making a succes of this stuff.
I am still working the detaching and GALing stuff but man it is hard. I am trying very hard to stay away from the arguing and we have not had a R talk in a long time.
I get that it takes two to tango. But... can one of us be a primary actor, and the other a supporting actor? Can one of us be "leading" the dance while the other follows? I think so.
Stepping away from Tree's situation for a moment, it is absolutely true that in my situation, we both got too busy. It was clearer in retrospect, but I have to say, I saw it even then. But you see I am an optimist. And when I saw my wife doting on the children, using all of her passion and energy on the children, and leaving none for me at the end of the day, week, month... I thought it was just the rhythm of life. We had young kids, what did I expect a mother to do? And in fact this is what my wife told me, too. So I was waiting it out, being more a father than a husband, joyous in my family, yet still remembering the love of my life - still intending to re-connect with my wife. My timeframe was in years, not weeks or months. I was very much looking forward, in some ways, to the times when my kids would be in school, when they'd need less immediate attention, when my wife and I could re-connect. I was happy with what I had but still looking forward to the good times to come. The way you can enjoy working during the week, but still look forward to the weekend. The way you can enjoy skiing in the winter yet still look forward to sunshine in the summer.
Ok, there was most definitely something missing, if my wife was able to run off with my best friend every morning - she was able to kiss me goodbye, tell me she was going for a run, and then go off and meet him and have sex. There was something missing in our lives, I get that. But it is possible that the "something missing" was really a ticking bomb in her all along? Is it possible that I was mainly guilty of being inattentive or unskilled, unaware that her childhood would come back to haunt her? and us?
I thought we were in our marriage together. I thought she and I shared a commitment, and when the going got tough (whatever the test) we would pull together. I thought she'd complain to me if she wasn't happy, just as I would complain to her if I were unhappy. But that didn't happen. I did complain to her, at times. I shared with her my experience as a young father. I told her about the joy and sadness I felt - I was so happy with our young family but I missed my solo relationship with her. I told her this, and we recognized it then, as just one of those intractable problems. you work through it. There's no getting around the fact that we wanted a family, and that meant less couple time. I was ok with it. I adjusted. It's common for new fathers, eh?
But now she is throwing that back and me and saying "you were never happy" and "you never supported me". It's as if I am not allowed to be anything other than blissful the entire time I Was with her. Any expression I made in the past that I was unhappy, or looking forward to a time when things would be different (let's say, looking forward to not having to change diapers), is now proof that I Was never happy.
Look, it wasn't like that.
I'm feeling a little defensive about my own situatin, and obviously I realize Zebra, that you were not talking directly to me. But I am very frustrated with the ... "it takes two to tango" cliche. Of course it does. And when I learned of the crisis in my marriage I was ready to go to work on it. But by that time she had checked out completely.
It takes two to tango - you could look at that a couple ways. If you think of the tango as "mess up the marriage", there may be some truth to the saying. But the reverse is perhaps more true - it really only takes one person to destroy a marriage. Only one. It takes two to make a marriage work, but only one to screw it up.
None of this refutes what you wrote, Z, about building a new relationship. I still think you are right on, about all that.
ok, enough. sorry for the diversion. . .
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
Two big things jump right out at me. They do so, because I can identify so very much with what you are saying and going through. More in a minute.
I've become a much more spiritual person through all this, from reading may kinds of spiritual books. I mean spiritual, not churchy. Bear with me. I learned that most of my problems have been caused by my assuming that all the rules in my life were right. I gravitated toward one philosophy that has 4 simple rules, 4 agreements that you make with yourself. A very short book called "The Four Agreements" sums it all up. Another simple but not easy transformation. The for agreements (here is where I bring this back to what you said) are to 1)Be impeccable with your word 2)Don't make assumptions 3)Don't take anything personally 4)All ways do your best.
First, replace every time you said "I thought" in your last note with "I assumed". The problem with assuming is that you are mind reading. You have no idea what she is thinking, and the only way you will know is to ask questions and find out what she needs from you. Of course, that means that she must be "impeccable with her word", always telling you the truth and saying exactly what she means. You can't control that, but you can try not to assume.
Second, I'm sorry if I said anything that makes you feel defensive. First you must know that when ever I pointed out how people can fail to live up to what might be interpreted as their responsibilities, I was talking about me. I failed miserably. I assumed, I avoided, I failed to follow through. I assumed that if there were no explicit complaints, everything was fine. I assumed that silence meant she had nothing to say. I assumed that spending so much time out meant that she was happy in her life with her friends. I assumed that I was off the hook. How wrong I was. Again, if you feel uncomfortable and defensive about what I said, I'm sorry. But I need to point out that you are taking comments I made about me and my marriage quite personally. It's good that you expressed that, so I could clarify.
Finally, I am very guilty of not doing my best. I allowed a lot to slide, and failing to receive direct complaints, I assumed that the meager attention I paid to the marriage was enough. So, I simply did what I thought was enough instead of doing my best. I have suffered long for these oversights.
On the other hand, I am not totally to blame. My wife is a classic conflict avoider. She will not express her complaints or opinions if she can avoid a conflict, no matter how minor. This is a problem that can be well handled in MC, but it needs to be identified. The last thing W would express was a desire for MC, because that could lead to conflict. The last thing she would do was nag excessively, because it DID lead to conflict. Finally, she had to complain to someone to let off the steam of all the pain she felt, and that happened to be her "friends", her divorced and separated bar and club and sports buddies who encouraged her to end it all and move on, and the sly, supportive and empathetic OM who was more than happy to lend a sympathetic ear, and a friendly arm around the shoulder. He was the friend I had ceased to be, and he was able to replace me. I say sly and I want to imply that he is evil, but he's not. He was probably as surprised as I was about what transpired. I know him. He is a nice guy, everyone likes him, he is fun to be around. He is also alone and lonely and nice and all that. This was not a plan, but the result of two lonely people coming together.
Our marriage was to W the epitome of what was not working in her life, and her relationships with all these folks, including OM were examples of what did and could work in her life. This is what I mean by her desire to stop what was not working, and to do more of what was. She got the concept way before I did.
This is how I've come to understand my situation. Most of the time when I write about what could have happened, or speculate about what did happen, I am talking about my situation in the context of another. I do not mean to accuse anyone of anything, but instead I'm trying to explain mistakes I've seen by virtue of my own experience. If you see similarities to my stories in yours, well I hope it helps you understand.
Hey Z, I'm certainly not thinking that your comments were directed to me. This is Tree's thread after all. I said I Was feeling defensive about my situation, and I am, but not in response to anything you said. It is mostly in response to the stream of accusations from my wife. typing is so difficult sometimes - it is easy to have misunderstandings. anyway, I'm cool with you.
I see a ton of similarities in the situations, yours and mine. Like yours, my wife is a conflict avoider. She earned this, I believe, living through a tough childhoold with an alcoholic mom, and a father who essentially abandoned her. There were lots of fights in her house, sometimes physical, and they never led to anything good. In contrast, there were fights (only arguments, nothing physical) in my house but no one ever left me. My mom was not an alcoholic. My dad never left.
So I was comfortable to air a conflict, while she was not. Who knew?
I get what you mean by saying, your wife started talking with people who would listen to her. I get what you mean by saying "she went with what works." The problem is, it works for a short time only. It's just more avoidance. Having an affair might feel "supportive" in the short term but it is a disaster in the long term. An affair is the very definition of WHAT DOES NOT WORK.
He is a nice guy, everyone likes him, he is fun to be around. He is also alone and lonely and nice and all that. This was not a plan, but the result of two lonely people coming together. Yeah, I get how affairs happen. I also am comfortable with people being more than just "good" or "evil" - people are complex. And people change over time.
But "this was not a plan" sounds a little too indulgent to me. Yes, it wasn't a plan, but there WAS a plan (and a commitment) to have a family. What happened to that?
It's one thing to drive aimlessly around and then end up somewhere you hadn't expected. That's called wandering. It's another thing to set out for the beach and then end up at the mountains. That is a lack of responsibility. Having an affair is a personal failing.
M 43 S14 S13 D11 D7 Divorce final: Jan 2009 Making it up as I go....
Man, your sitch's sound so much like mine. We are all living the same nightmare. If I could only go back in time 1 year knowing what I know now.
Only diff is my wife loves to fight. Looks for fights, she learned this from her Mom and got her temper from her Dad. My W is on such a bad journey right now i wish i could help her. I looked out my bedroom window as she pulled out of the driveway after lunch and thought, on this bueatiful day, this bueatiful girl is no longer mine. She has been obducted by some strange alien. I really miss her and feel like she is moving further and further away every day. I hate that she is hanging around with the SSW. They are a group of very unhappy people and must just sit around and talk about how unhappy they are and what J**ks there husbands are/where. I hate that. If they used that energy to fix their marriages they would be a lot better off. i wish i could paint a better picture of the future for her but she is just not listening and I feel like it is going to be a long time before she does. It may be to late. Of course I have heard the "to little to late" line many times. I am not giving up yet but getting slightly tired in this marathon.
I agree about the assumptions. I'll add to that not to invent things that aren't there either. I've been guilty of both and only ended up causing myself temporary grief, which is the last thing I need to do to myself right now.
Very hard not to read into what little we do get (and assume the very worst), but it's just not worth it if you makes you crazy. Unfortunately, that's what we do naturally. It feels like doom is coming and we want to work on it somehow...to do something.
