No More Mister Nice Guy is a good book. There are three books that can help men, they are NMMNG, "The Way of the Superior Man", and "Wild at Heart" for the religious. All of these books are trying to get the man to have a purpose or goal in his life that is NOT his wife. This is to take the pressure off the women, to detach the big hose that is sucking her dry. Supposedly, women are attracted to men that DON"T need them. The theory is that by pursuing their own goals, this will take the pressure off the woman and she will then regain her attraction to him. However, the first two books will tell you that once you are the Integrated Male or Superior Man, if the wife does NOT increase her desire for you, then you have chosen poorly, and it would be best for BOTH of you to END your relationship. These books make it clear that men should NOT settle for crap in their relationships, and that thier wives are essentially disposable. Wild at Heart has many similar idea's, but the main difference is that it says that the man should keep trying to effect change in his wife FOREVER if necessary, it does NOT recommend divorce for ANY reason.
All are good books.
One thing about these books is that they may HELP make the man more attractive to the women, but the women STILL must make massive changes in herself, and she still must find a way to regain her sex drive, and she will have to do this basically on her own.
These things are slippery slopes and the behaviour patterns feed into each other. One day one of you did something mean to the other one - or something the other one perceived as mean. The injured party decided to not say anything and to hold onto the resentment. Because they did that their behaviour was different. Because of their behaviour the other one couldn't reach them. Then they felt lonely and isolated and made it into the other ones' fault, and became more resentful.....
That is why the things your W listed seem so trivial. She can't really remember what caused her to feel hurt once way back. She can't really remember why it seemed so important. But inside herself she has been rehashing that resentment over and over and building you up as the bad guy. She feels wronged and she feels it's your fault. Maybe you stepped on her toe one time and didn't say sorry. Whatever it was it's HER resentment not your error that is the problem.
Once you start to realise that it's her problem you no longer need to walk on eggshells, you can just go about your business behaving the way you want to behave as a normal mortal reasonably decent guy. You can say the stuff you want to say, you can do the stuff you want to do. And her reaction is immaterial - it is hers.
If she sees you as nothing more than co-parents to your kids then she is emotionally divorced from you. It has already happened. And in my view that is WORSE for the kids than being open about it. It is also worse for you because you are living in a sexual desert with a woman who no longer wants to be your wife.
How come she gets to live with a wealthy man (who's wealth she says she despises - boy that's a luxury being able to despise wealth while still living off it), maintain the illusion of an intact family life to her children and friends, while in no way behaving like a wife?
Why is that OK? Why are you letting her get away with it? If she was an employee you'd have fired her by now.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Thanks again for all the feedback. Haphazard, you really captured the dynamic. Unfortunately, my wife and I are both "nice" which means we let the resentments build up over many years. You also nailed the situation when you talk about her need to hang on to the illusion of a happy family without having to lift a finger in our relationship. Once, early on in this process, we had an argument and my daughter heard it and got very upset. My wife later said to me "How dare you bring our children into this." I wanted to ask her exactly how she plans on ending our marriage without letting our children know about it. I feel like I have to add a few facts, however, to give you all a better sense of the situation. For years, I was a very needy person in the sense that I was depressed and medicated myself with work. After years of that, I had had enough and started individual therapy, which I have continued. This changed our relationship for the worse because she was no longer my caretaker because I really didn't need a caretaker anymore. With a better sense of myself, my career took off and my relationships with my children improved dramatically. The marriage deteriorated somewhat (she now says she stopped loving me at this point although she thinks it has nothing to do with my therapy or the changes in me). Then, three years ago when her alcoholic father died suddenly, she lost all interest in me and our marriage (and in most of her friends, in exercisng and in spending time with our children). Instead she devoted all of her energies to our church where she now works (about 80 hours a week) and to the old, very need priest she works for. He is chronically depressed and socially phobic - a pretty much complete mess of a man. So, in a sense, I broke her heart by transforming myself into a much less needy, more self assured man. Then her dad broke her heart by dying and she could therefore no longer care for him. So she opted for the priest. I guess I just think that she will see this and work her way out of it (she is in therapy now) but (a) it ain't a lot of fun sitting around waiting for that to happen and (b) I enable her to take her sweet time by being such a nice guy about the whole thing. It is just not my nature to be otherwise and I do feel sorry for her because she is about the most unhappy person I know. On the other hand, sometimes tough love is the only love you can offer because anything else (like passive, nice guy love) just allows the other person to remain in their personal prison. It is funny, my oldest son told me that he talks about he situation with his girlfriend all the time and he says "I don't know why my mom is being so mean to my dad. He is such a nice guy." I guess I am beginning to see that the answer my lie in those words rearranged a bit - "Mom is being so mean to dad because he is a nice guy. . . ."
Interesting observation esquire! Sounds like her identity was taking care of you. And when you "fixed" yourself, she saw herself as useless. But you can't really talk to her about it unless she sees that herself. And it sounds as if she's already built-up the wall around her heart, and has no desire to break it down and let you in. Both of you are in individual counseling, and you've gone to MC, but you didn't get anywhere. I find it hard to believe that you can be in MC for 1.5 years and not go anywhere - so maybe you should try a different C. Sounds like the other C only let you "vent" and not try to fix anything. If she's not willing to go, then she's officially given up on you and the relationship.
Kellie ------ Me - 27 H - 31 S - born 8/18/2007 Married - 4/24/2005 Together - 7/03/2002
Ok so yesterday, at what was supposed to be a pleasant Valentine's Day dinner, I finally had to say, in a calm tone, that I simply cannot live this way any longer. I told her if she wants to work on this marriage then I am in but if she does not, that is fine too, we can part ways. She was not pleased, defended herself, did a quick summary of her list of hurts going back years and then we left the restaurant. Recall that she has not slept in our bed in about three years. So I wake up in the middle of the night and she is not on the couch in our room where she usually sleeps. To my amazement as I look across the room she is sleeping on our bed, not under the covers and pretty close to the edge, but still in our bed. So I thank you all for the advice because it led directly to my standing up to her and saying enough is enough. I am not sure where it goes from here but I take it as a sign of my own progress that her returning to our bed was not nearly as significant and my being honest, direct and authentic with her at dinner. I take that as good news because the former is outside my control and the latter is entirely within my control.
This sounds very similar to my situation. 20 years in marriage; I can count on one hand the number of times we've had sex in the past 5 years. I read somewhere that the average American couple has sex 94 times a year. I haven't had that in 20 years! She just announced one day that she was pretty much finished with sex, and that was that. I've tried talking with her about it, but she's not interested. I've been completely faithful to her, and attentive. I haven't been perfect, but I have always taken ownership for things that I've said or done that caused hurt. By contrast, I can, again, count on one hand the number of times she's ever apologized for things that she's said and done that have hurt our relationship. I find myself thinking about the other good women I have known in my life who really, truly loved me; and I passed over them for this! I love my two kids deeply and the thought of doing anything that would scar them (divorce, cheat), is unbearable. But I think of this complete shut down and refusal to communicate as a form of infidelity. We took a vow of fidelity, and I believe that means that we promised to be available to one another as well as faithful. That was a vow we took. I would be a lot more understanding if I felt like she gave a flip; but I don't think she cares.
Marsh - Sounds like we are in the same boat. I asked my wife how our marriage would be in I agreed that we would never have sex again and could convince her that I meant it. She said that would change everything and she would be nice to me again. I have no idea what to make of that other than that she has some real issues with sex, at least at this time. So, like you, I struggle with what to do about what amounts to infidelity on her part. It is the equivalent of infidelity so I know what you mean when you say that. That is why early on in these posts I brushed off the idea that she is actually cheating on me. What difference would that make? She already is in her heart and if she had another man then at least it would be tangible and she would have to admit it on some level. As is she gets to be unfaithful to me and then wrap herself up the comfort of justifying that based on her "need for space and healing" for how terrible it has been to be my wife for 25 years.
I know everyone says that you have to stand up for yourself. I see the posts above that say that my children would be better off if you refused to stay in such a marriage but I simply do not believe that. A separation/divorce would crush my children and probably my wife as well. What they have now is not great but they can at least go on with life thinking that mom and dad are going to work this out somehow. If someone walked up to me with a gun in his hand and said I am going to kill you or one of your children and you cannot stop me, without hesitation I would say kill me. So if I would give my very life for my children why wouldn't I give up my sex life for them? I have overcome enormous odds to many aspects of my life to achieve success. I simply cannot take another approach in my marriage and just throw in the towel. I guess for now I am just going to keep working on it and trying new approaches. Walking out is just not going to be one of them. I feel for you as I feel for myself and if I find at way out or even a way towards the way out, I will let you know. Hang in there. Esquire
Hey Esquire, Have you checked out the Mid Life Crisis board? I highly recommend it. Here's why:
Lack of sex and physical affection was the first symptom of my wife's MLC that I noticed. Unfortunately, I focused on the lack of sex, and failed to see the big picture. As a result, I spent a lot of time on this board and focused all my efforts on restoring our sex life. It didn't work...in fact...it made things worse in some ways.
Your wife is displaying all the classic signs of MLC. Dealing with MLC requires a bit of a different approach as opposed to SSM. In short:
GAL...good. Falling on your sword in MC...yes, good. Confronting her over anything, including an affair...very bad. Snooping to find info with which to confront...horribly bad.
Anyway, I read your entire sitch, and the alarm bells were really going off. I would really encourage you to go over to the MLC board and read up.
Bomb
Me: 51 W: 50 M 24 yrs EA: since Apr 06 S22, S26, S28 ILYBNILWY:Nov 07
"It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything." Tyler Durden
bomb 5 GAL...good. Falling on your sword in MC...yes, good. Confronting her over anything, including an affair...very bad. Snooping to find info with which to confront...horribly bad.
My thoughts: GAL...good. Falling on your sword in MC...yes if it was your fault. Bad if it wasn't. Confronting her over anything, including an affair..good. Snooping to find info with which to confront...snoop more.
