I am new to DB but I have read Michele's books and many of the posts but I have one particular issue with which I continue to struggle. My wife of 24 years told me two years ago that she did not think we could ever be anything more than co-parents to our four children because, in her view, we got married too young and were just incompatable. She stopped making love to me and resisted all affection from me, finally asking me not to touch her, which I have respected ever since. About four months ago, I stopped chasing her in any way and started implementing many of the DB techniques. I have seen small but still positive results. For example, she had moved into an empty bedroom down the hallway but for the past several weeks is now sleeping in a couch in our bedroom. That is a far cry from sleeping in our bed with me, but moving back into our bedroom still seems like meaningful progress. She refuses to talk about our future or give me an assurance that there will be one and I now know to not even ask about this. She is a wonderful person of good values and it is inconceivable to me that she would ever cheat on me or even leave me. Her worst threats are always about us staying together solely as co-parents in a sexless marriage (something months ago she said we may have to consider). We were in marrage counseling for a year and a half but it seemed to be of little value. She recited her long list of hurts over the years (e.g., 15 years ago I got mad at her for going to a tupperware party instead of spending the evening with me. I made a negative comment about her involvment in church activites one time. I almost forgot to get her something for mother's day once and ran out to get a gift at the last minute). I fell on my sword and apologized for everything and anything. I changed my behavior and helped out around the house more than any husband I know. All of this made very little difference and if the topic of sex came up in marriage counseling, my wife immediately shut down and stopped talking. So what do I do now? Any suggestions? Should I initiate being affectionate with her once again or should I just tell her I am calling it quits and moving on with a life without her. I hate the latter but it at least seems to get her attention. Oh yes, the latest development came this weekend when she told me that I am a very wealthy man (which is true) and that she has a real issue with that (which she acknowledges is her problem). So now I am supposed to feel bad because I have worked hard all my life and now make a good living financially? I love my wife but I am not really sure what happened to her.
I am saying this, because sometimes being "Nice" to your W is a normal route men go, thinking it will change the W. Usually it won't change much. I see similar activities in your post that other "Nice Guys" do, thinking it will change the W's attitude.
We were in marriage counseling for a year and a half but it seemed to be of little value. Was someone holding back during the sessions or do you consider the MC to be ineffective. I would think 1.5 years of c should have changed a few things if the C and you two were really working on real issues.
From what I know, MC’ing doesn't always talk about ways to change, but becomes a complaint session.
My personal opinion, not having sex with a spouse that wants to ML is very close to betrayal. Like I said, that is my view point.
Other men have said their W would never cheat but that myth has been broken many times. I am not saying it is true in your case. Just giving you part of the actual history of this forum from the last 3+ years that I have posted here and on other forums.
if the topic of sex came up in marriage counseling, my wife immediately shut down and stopped talking. I say foul and so should have your MC. Your W is entitled to her opinion but not talking about the issue is passive aggressive or something like that.
Should I initiate being affectionate with her once again or should I just tell her I am calling it quits and moving on with a life without her. It is your M. I can't tell you to stay or go. I/the forum can suggest things to try or say or what they did.
Does your W want to stay M, and I mean M that involves sex, affection, and all of that married stuff? If she believes the Bible, ask her where no sex for 3 years is written. Maybe you shouldn’t ask that question because most no-sex drive spouses see that as an attack on their personality.
Would she post on this forum? I know of several H/W posters that have greatly improved their M. It works a lot better if both people are playing by the same playbook. One spouse here and the other not, is like playing a game where each person decides what rules/norms apply and when. Not my version of how to make progress.
So now I am supposed to feel bad because I have worked hard all my life and now make a good living financially? So, what does she object to? You worked too many hours? You charged too much? You sell/work/immoral/what ever defective products?
I love my wife but I am not really sure what happened to her. Esquire, you can mostly only work on yourself. If she sees something that she likes and wants to be a part of, she will have to do her work.
Possibly, if she sees you moving on w/o her she will do her work. More than one spouse said s/he was leaving her/his spouse before the reluctant spouse got off their center of the universe chair and did something to keep the M in tact.
Different things work or not work for different couples.
I fell on my sword and apologized for everything and anything
Please discontinue this. how long did this behavior go on for? You should also discontinue closely monitoring her and watching her for 'improvements'. Thats NOT easy.
(e.g., 15 years ago I got mad at her for going to a tupperware party instead of spending the evening with me. I made a negative comment about her involvment in church activites one time. I almost forgot to get her something for mother's day once and ran out to get a gift at the last minute)
This type of thing is a pretty predictable indicator of an affair of some type. It helps them assuage their guilt and justify their actions. When it occurs just consider it to be talking out loud rhetorically. Listen. ponder. I can't emphasize the following enough. DO NOT Take it Personal. If she says I dont like mushrooms, its not a personal attack. If she says I dont like it when you scream at the TV during the superbowl, its not a personal attack. Its a statement of preferance. She doesnt have to eat mushrooms, and she doesnt have to be in the room when you scream at the Ref. [these are examples] Do not provide solutions unless specifically asked for one. Even then you dont have to provide a solution. You have a lot of your own stuff/issues/life to provide solutions for.
She is a wonderful person of good values and it is inconceivable to me that she would ever cheat on me or even leave me. There is value in the latter mindset, when trying to reconcile your M, but not in the former.
You obviously are aware that some of the things you did were crappy, or you wouldnt have 'fallen on your sword', but also seem pretty aware that those particular incidents in and of themselves are pretty trivial. If youve apologized for them, and dont do it anymore, move on, and stop allowing her to hold it over your head. Whatever was truly making her feel uncared for quite likely remains a mystery.
Oh yes, the latest development came this weekend when she told me that I am a very wealthy man (which is true) and that she has a real issue with that (which she acknowledges is her problem).
Yes it IS her problem. On several levels no doubt. IF ---BIGGG IFF--- she had an affair and stays/ed with you for financial security reasons, she has to look at herself in the mirror and reevaluate herself and who she really is and how whe feels about herself knowing that. Probably not to easy.
No do NOT feel bad for your accomplishments. If she isnt proud of you for your accomplishments, you should ask yourself how that makes you feel. Why do need or want a woman who doesnt support or appreciate you? I bet you support her.
Of the things that she has complained about, which ones hit at your insecurities? [you dont have to answer this here] Work on them, For You. Be grateful she pointed them out to you. You can even thank her for pointing it out to you, while keeping your focus on working on it. Im serious.
If we could understand the woman code, we would all be HeMen. [reminds me of a song by Extreme. LOL] Heck if they didnt mix the man improving in with trying to turn us into their girlfriends it might even be more understandable.
Should I initiate being affectionate with her once again or should I just tell her I am calling it quits and moving on with a life without her. I hate the latter but it at least seems to get her attention.
If you are only telling her that you are calling it quits in order to get her attention, then stop it. Say it ONLY if you mean it. Say it only if you have: 1. Already contacted an attorney. 2. Have immediate plans in place to protect your assets. 3. Depending on the ages of your kids, have plans in place to effectively deal with the fallout of a divorce that will affect them.
And yeah, read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Glover. And do the exercises. Time to stop falling on your sword.
Can anyone tell me more about NMMNG? I read the excerpts, and it sounds a lot like my H. He too does things he thinks I'll like hoping it will result in S instead of listening to what I need to build a bond that would bring us closer. He is definitely a "Mr. Nice Guy" but then has a temper that occasionally explodes.
The part I read that discussed maternal figures in early adulthood fits. He spent a lot of time with his mom as his father was busy doing his own thing.
I'm working on my physical issues - and for those of you that read my other post you may remember we are now trying to take turns intiating (which is actually working out ok - I'm still struggling with a lack of desire though). Anyway, I was considering whether I should buy the book for him.
I cannot thank you all enough for your thoughtful responses to my post. You have given me a lot to think about and I will definitely looking to NMMNG. If I did not have children, this would be a lot easier. I am not saying I would have left long ago but I probably would have been less hesitant to stand up for myself. I have two children in college, one a senior in high school and one in seventh grade. The youngest is the one who concerns me because she gets very upset at the slightest hint of instability in the home (and like most kids she has picked up on a lot). We have never discussed the M situation with our children but my oldest son has raised it with me on several ocassions - "why is mom being so mean to you?"
It is interesting that some of you had suggested that my wife might have an affair. I cannot tell you what a relief that would be for me. Then I wouldn't be the bad guy (in my own eyes or that of my children) and I could just move on with my life. I realize that says a lot about me and my own issues. I am not sure why I am taking all the blame. Yes, I am a lawyer, a pretty successful one at that, and I know what most people think about lawyers, but if you asked anyone (and I mean anyone) who has ever worked with me about what kind of person I am and almost all would start by saying, "he is a super nice guy." I do have a temper that explodes on rare ocassions but I think that has more to do with holding back most of the time and not standing up for myself. One good thing that has come of this is that I am working out a lot more and have lost about 30lbs. I have also taken up gardening and golf so I am trying to work on myself. Still, living without love, or more to the point, living with a woman who treats you like dirt, takes a lot out of a man. Thanks again for the support.
Esquire, you have to ask yourself what will hurt your younger children more, a divorce or getting a warped view of what a marriage is? Your daughter in 7th grade is how old? 12? Guess what? In 10-15 years it's likely that she will be a wife. Do you want her to get the idea that your marriage is what a marriage is supposed to be like? Would you want her to treat her husband like your wife is treating you? Like the John Mayer song said: "so fathers be good to your daughters, daughters will love like you do, girls become lovers who turn into mothers"
Why do I think she is not having an affair? I have been married to her for 25 years and we dated for 5 so I have known her for 30 years. I may be wrong, but I think I would know if she were cheating on me. In any event, as I said, if she were, that would set me free so I am not sure I have any reason to try to deny this possibility. My own guess is that she has simply lost interest in sex due to menopause. She is moody and withdrawn much of the time but at that time of the month it is even worse. I remember when her mother went through this stage, and my wife (who was in her late teens at the time) always joked about how nuts her mother had become because of menopause. I know there is more to it than that but it is a factor. She used to exercise every day and she had not done that for the past two and a half years either.
By the way, great point about my daughter (and my older children for that matter). I know that what they are seeing now is damaging to them and seeing their father stand up for himself may be the most important lesson they learn and may just save their own marriages years from now. I never thought of it that way.
Im serious. 
