Questions and Ruminations

[Burgbud]

This thread's ancestor ended here: Ruminations and Questions.

I started this thread in case there's any carry over from that one and so that anybody who's been ruminating about anything, or has questions about anything, can feel free to post. Not that they couldn't feel free to post without this thread; I'm just sayin'.

[SweetRedd]

I liked your last post Bud.. especially that part about life squeezing between our fingers. Reminds me of play doh Ever try to make something really cool out of it, but you just can't get it to match what you see in your mind? I usually end up just squishing it between my fingers like that.. relieves the frustration that my materpiece doesn't live up to my dream. Kinda like life I guess I love that squishy feeling, but if you squeeze too hard, it leaves a nasty film that has to be cleaned off your fingers.

[Burgbud]

Are you a psychological materialist?

From an interview with Mark Epstein at this link: Interview


Question: And what is Buddhism's part in this transformation?

Epstein: Well, this is all through Buddhism. I think Buddhism is very smart in the way that it, or the Buddha, was able to lay out the psychology in which the Buddha said that the origin of our suffering is our inability to let go; it's our clinging. Joseph Goldstein, one of my teachers, uses the example of a monkey trap that is widely used in India, where a small bamboo cage is built with bars that are just narrow enough that the monkey can slip his hand into the cage. Inside the cage is put some kind of attractive food, some kind of sweetmeat or something, and the monkey clamps down on the food, and therefore can't pull his hand out of the cage. So he is stuck there, and the hunters can come and take him away. But he is trapped only by his own craving. All he has to do is let go of the food, and he would be free again. That's the psychology of Buddhism--that we're all trapped by our own craving, and we have to learn how to let go.

Question: Do we let go into simplicity and nonmaterialism?

Epstein: Sometimes. We're all afflicted with a kind of psychological materialism, which is the idea that we have to keep building up a bigger and better self, that psychotherapy will help us do that or that self-development will help us do that or Eastern spirituality will help us do that, but I think that the route that Buddhism counsels is not about psychological materialism. It's not about any kind of materialism. It's about learning another way, which has to do with this idea of being able to relax into the true nature of the self, which can be simplicity, yes.

[Burgbud]

In Choc's thread, Martelo wrote:

Here is where I first head of him, I think there is some intersting stuff in it. Link to article

Very nice. I was especially struck by this:

"When we talk about people with presence, we often assume that they have a strong personality--that they sweep us all up in their own personal whirlwind. Our model is the Pied Piper, who played his irresistible tune and every child in Hamelin blindly followed. But Cesar Millan and Suzi Tortora play different tunes, in different situations. And they don't turn their back, and expect others to follow. Cesar let JonBee lead; Tortora's approaches to Eric were dictated by Eric. Presence is not just versatile; it's also reactive. Certain people, we say," command our attention," but the verb is all wrong. There is no commanding, only soliciting. "

[blackfoot]

Presence is not just versatile; it's also reactive. Certain people, we say," command our attention," but the verb is all wrong. There is no commanding, only soliciting. "

Bzzzz. I disagree with the word reactive, and that there is no commanding.
being cognizant and adaptable does not make you reactive.
People who are in positions of leadership do not solicit. If anything they set up buffers and distance, because everyone has an agenda. Either to get something from them or to tear them down.
They may need to re-garner loyalty, but they dont do it by soliciting. They do it by inspiring.

That's not what I meant. It seems to me you have a rule that says in a LTR, a woman will try to change you eventually. You don't want to change, so you have another rule that says you shouldn't get seriously involved with a woman because she's eventually going to be disappointed when you won't change.

You've got a rule that says being in a LTR with you is unfair to the woman

No. Thats not one of 'my rules'. Thats not at all what I was talking about when I mentioned 'My Rules." Thats what x told me during her A, and what LFL says. Ive heard it from OW, but never my family and never one who had continued relevance in my life.

Im not inclined to disagree with women when they tell me how I am not good for them. Thats their perception, and Im happy to agree with them, and when I have a point to prove Ill do it in a most placating fashion to help them on their way, away from me.

Thats exactly what I did with x after she left and started a PA. Oh wait it wasnt a PA because she was 'sure' she was done. silly me, I guess she was just calling and unsure because .... Which by the way her calling and indecision happened AGAIN, after I resumed my 'bad for her behaviours'.
Yes 'disrespectful judgements' are sure hard to avoid when someone is completely indecisive, has no self awareness, and their Ideas of taking control of a R and 'leading' is to end the R.
That doesnt sound like taking the leadership position, that just sounds selfish. Selfishness I can understand and give my approval to 100%. Do it, own it and your reasons, and live with the consequences of your choice.
Indecision and lack of self awareness act like a giant sucking vacumm on my ability to 'feel' respect. It doesnt change my choice to act respectful, and be .... kind? tolerant? accepting? understanding? fatherly? NOT destructive to others...

That choice doesnt begin to falter untill assualts on my personal physical or emotional well being occur. Actually not even physical. I am still 'kind'er, have more restraint, then I could be, or am legally required too.
Explotation and Abuse of power I find equally detestable in all its forms. That being said everyone 'abuses' new found power. Its the only way to be *certain* of your power. Some choose to continue to use it to the detriment of others and without regard.

For ex. to beat a dead horse, the OM in my life was like this since youth. He has always urged people to self destruct just to see if they would. I knew that, and should never have taken him down to the docks in AK, to teach him what I knew.

Being placating on occasion (especially intentionally in the beginning) gives you loads of insight into a woman and how she handles her own emotions.
Does she pounce and try to get a grip on you like a terrier? belittle? criticize? act disrespectful? or does she sit still? point it out respectfully? encourage. set a boundary for her?

Getting back to 'My Rules'. They are for me, to keep myself out of needless well being sapping activities. What they are is not relevant to this place nor do I need affirmation for their validity. I have them allready for real logical reasons and Ill live with the black and white of them. If a woman cant deal with that, or doesnt have her own, Id rather know right now, not 15 years from now when our kids are in junior high.

I don't see too many rules that the universe actually conforms to. Ill leave that to you and chromo to argue about.

That way leads to suffering.

You can't live at your edge once you've set your rule, because the edge moves away from you. You can't master life.


Nod on the mastering life. Thats not the same as setting rules. We are talking about too different things. Weve allready ascertained that living on the edge is a problem too. I need to find a way to work on that in such a way that I am still happy, not because a woman wants me to change. (which they never do in the beginning.) ex. I sold my bikes for my reasons when I was married, when she left I went a bought my first Italian bike. (something I always wanted.)
x wasnt put off by that, when she found out and started sniffing around, she wanted to know why I hadnt done it before. Why? because I had other priorities.

I make decisions. Good or bad. I live with the consequences. I look back to learn, but I dont pine. I dont blame anyone for my choices. I wont be required to be responsible for theirs either. Dont worry about me and suffering. Went down the path of 'enlightenment' a long time ago. It was just me in a purple aura, sitting lazily in the sun watching the river flow by.

loosening your grip.

Youll just have to take my word for the fact that my grip IRL is really really loose. Because I know exactly where 'my rules' allow me to go. Everything inside the rules is open to exploration and random change.
If my girp appears not to be loose here, in this place, I have reasons for it.

It seems like there's more to say. Perhaps it will come out with further dialog.

'talking as a means of resolving problems is highly overrated.'

Im sure that wont stop us though.

Burg
You have all the tools.
When are you going to go get your wife back?
What are you waiting for?
Being unattached to the outcome is not the same as indifferance (feigned or otherwise.)
Going after what you want is Very attractive actually. Its almost as attractive as knowing what you want, knowing youll get it, and having unflinching boundaries because of that knowledge.

No matter your moral fortitude, emotions are not to be dismissed or trifled with. Thats what rules are for, to provide you with moral certainty.

Seems to me Marriage vows are some of those 'rules'

[Lord Grenville]

...When are you going to go get your wife back? What are you waiting for?

Being unattached to the outcome is not the same as indifferance (feigned or otherwise.)
Going after what you want is Very attractive actually. Its almost as attractive as knowing what you want, knowing youll get it, and having unflinching boundaries because of that knowledge.

Blackfoot,
Could you please elaborate for the sake of some DBnewbies like myself?

I am working on detaching from my desired outcome of winning my W back, in case it does not happen (she is likely securing an apartment today, which will allow a burgeoning R with OM to grow).

How do I best continue to work at winning her affections, while giving her space that she has been requesting for two months, without looking like I am pursuing her, or needing her? Right now, I am telling myself that I am willing to work at this for at least 18 months.

Any advice will be appreciated. Thanks.

[Burgbud]

People who are in positions of leadership do not solicit.

That part of the article was talking about people with "presence", which isn't necessarily the same as people in positions of leadership.


If my girp appears not to be loose here, in this place, I have reasons for it.

Okay.


'talking as a means of resolving problems is highly overrated.'

Are we having a problem?


When are you going to go get your wife back?

B4ST4RD! I was thinking about that all day. Someone asked if I was having a "quiet day". It's a very good question because it leads to these questions: Do I want her back? If so, why? If not, why not?

I went thru a lot of possible questions and answers. This was a kid transfer day so I saw her at her place and checked my pulse as we discussed homework that needs done on the weekend and medicines, etc. Eventually I came to an answer I can live with.

She's not my future.


No matter your moral fortitude, emotions are not to be dismissed or trifled with. Thats what rules are for, to provide you with moral certainty.

Seems to me Marriage vows are some of those 'rules'

Understood. She's given me a "get out of jail free" card in multiple ways, though. She's given me no reason not to use it, and I feel no inclination to hold on to it.

[blackfoot]

That part of the article was talking about people with "presence", which isn't necessarily the same as people in positions of leadership

yeah I went and read it after I posted, but I still disagreed with the writer that cesar was not leading bonjee when wrestling the dog into tiredness. He is not being reactive, he is still in control.

'talking as a means of resolving problems is highly overrated.'

Are we having a problem?

Nah its just a quote from a movie where a woman hits the guy when he is trying to talk to her, and when he walks away she wants to talk about it. Thats his retort. It amuses me a lot.

No matter your moral fortitude, emotions are not to be dismissed or trifled with. Thats what rules are for, to provide you with moral certainty

She's given me a "get out of jail free" card in multiple ways, though

oops. I apologize. This was not intended as a hit at you.

I edited out was I was talking about before this. It was sort of a rebuke to myself for ignoring the power of emotions to make our decisions.
It was not directed at you or your sitch. You do have a get out of jail card.
But you havent used it.

She's not my future.
That remark as stated is Good. Anything else, sounds like too much to ask of someone.

Its not an answer to what I asked though.

[Burgbud]

Its not an answer to what I asked though.

Okay.

When are you going to go get your wife back?

Never, in her current mental and emotional configuration.

What are you waiting for?

In terms of wanting to get her back, I'd be waiting for her to take responsibility for her own happiness and give up the victim mentality that is her current source of empowerment.

In terms of what am I waiting for before pushing thru the divorce, part of it is that I'm waiting for her because this is what she wanted and I don't like the feeling of cutting my own throat. It's taken so long because she wasn't healthy enough to move out of the house for over a year after she dropped the bomb, she didn't have a job until last fall, then she missed too many days (sick) and got fired. We were waiting to get her income figured out before going to court so we didn't have to turn around and go right back.

I'm also not pushing because while the actual divorce will be useful in providing some sort of closure, it doesn't have much practical purpose at the moment, except the divorce decree will enable her to take a big chunk out of my/our 401k which will pay off credit card debts we amassed post-bomb. That's something I *can't* do for her so I'm hoping she'll get in the mode of wanting all this taken care of and the work getting the divorce done will carry over into work getting the finances straightened out afterwards.

She has gotten the ball rolling with her lawyer. I've got an appt with my lawyer a week from today and fervently hope to have documents from her side to show him. If they say what I expect them to say, we'll sign and she'll file.

[MJontheMend]

I'm having some trouble working out financial details prior to filing also. Real estate values are absolutely in the toilet in Michigan right now so I had two appraisals done this month and one came in significantly over our equity and the other came in significantly under. So I can't decide how to proceed in terms of whether to try and sell the house in a poor market or maintain joint ownership with my H until our daughter graduates in two years or have him sign over the title to me. Of course, part of my problem is that I am so cheap I am doing the paperwork myself with the help of my sister who is a lawyer but she does criminal defense in Miami so state of MI divorce law is not her forte. She just keeps saying that the court will probably accept any contract between us that is in the best interest of our daughter.