Wondering if I'm piecing or Last Resort

[kirby]

Hi Wedge, I don't remember if I answered you on your post or not. I know I've thought about what you've said and your sitch - I checked out your thread.

You are right about snooping. Everyone has been right about snooping. And, I feel proud of myself when I don't snoop. But, it's really hard not too!

[grasshopper]

Kirby,

First of all, I intentionally did not read any other responses to this post so if I repeat what others have said, good, take it as reinforcement. If I manage to squeak out an original thought or two...well, we'll cross THAT bridge if we ever come to it, lol.

The underlying issue here is that she feels she told me, clearly, that she didn't want to do it and was upset, and I didn't hear her or understand. This is a problem she has always had. She cannot communicate well, and she avoids confrontation. Now I know that I wasn't listening well. If she would have fought with me about my mom (we never 'fight') and hit me over the head, I might have understood.

Guy, I have heard this MANY times since all this started. My W CLAIMS to have CLEARLY told me MANY things that I swear I learned about for the first time as we were fighting about it, her ready to once again quit on our marriage.

The bottom line here is your W and mine are 100% right. In THEIR way, they have told us clearly what they are upset about and we have not heard them. Yes, it's on your W to learn a bit about your language but unfortunately, at this stage of your process, much of the learning is on YOU since you are the one who initially wanted to save this thing. Eventually, it will be a much more shared process but for now, learn all you can about how she has "clearly" told you things, see how you COULD have heard her on those issues and then apply it to present day communication and see if there isn't more you're missing.

Oh, and the "We never fight" part...that's bad by the way. Never fighting is not the goal. Learning to fight well and then move on is the goal.

Then, after the class, we met with the MC. I learned there that I'm not handling my grief as well as I thought I was and my W resents it. I need to work on this more. More GALing, more learning to Stop thinking.

You also mentioned somewhere that she "saw it on your face" or something like that. She'll ALWAYS see it on your face if you're merely trying to hide your feelings. The trick, as you suggest, is to actually move past your feelings by either changing the subject in your own mind, or expressing yourself and getting the "bad" stuff out. Either way, you have to DO something about how you feel, not just bury it. It WILL show in your actions and words if you do not.

After the MC session, W started talking R in the car. She is angry at me for snooping. I haven't snooped for a while, and I never snooped very well, but I did. So, don't snoop. They don't like it; it doesn't help, fight the urge.

I've probably said this 100 times on these boards and most of the time, it takes experience to change people's minds. I wish that were not true because the snooping WILL cause problems as things get better because while snooping is not quite the same violation of trust as cheating is, it's still hurts pretty bad to the one snooped on and that pain lingers. Yea, I know, snooping seems justified but then again, as the cheaters often say, so was their cheating. Wrong on both accounts.

In both cases I think the actions are more a sign of a person not trusting themselves to act correctly, according to their own interests, as much as not trusting their spouse.

Lastly, she told me that she doesn’t love me and doesn’t know if she ever will again. This is the bottom line; more important then the OM or anything else I think.

This sounds more like something they say at the beginning of the sitch rather than the beginning of reconciling. I guess you're thinking that since she's "trying" that you're in the piecing stage. I don't really discount that, but the one thing I did catch in a reply to this post from someone else is that you should NOT, in ANY way be letting your DB guard down. In fact, as it's been said 100,000 times before, you should never stop DBing for the rest of your life, especially as it pertains to your focus on maintaining your individuality and your own set of interests.

That's where the spice of a relationship often lies; in our ability to offer something more than just a recounting of the shared life with our spouse. Your ability to demonstrate your own interests, goals and desires is paramount to not only your marriage, but more importantly, to YOUR happiness, for which you are 100% responsible.

I am in a dangerous position, as we all are or have been. Even though I have it better than many, I could screw this up easily. I need to DB and understand DBing.

Yes, sort of. OT used to admonish me when I would beat myself up over a slip-up (paraphrasing to follow) "If you think your entire marriage hangs on this one thing, this one interaction, then you've got bigger problems than xxxxxxx."

The point being; yes, you could screw this up, but probably not for the reasons you think. The way you'll screw it up is not by making the occasional mistake, but rather the consistent making of the same mistakes and never learning from them. IF, your marriage could be destroyed, once and for all, by some stupid thing you do, then it's not worth your time anyway.

I suspect that while damage can, and has been done by your foul-ups, the major damage that continues to be done is due to your continued externalizing of your life's problems and your continued desire to control the situation. Once you solve THOSE problems, you will be much more likely to achieve success.

I think she is still a WAS and MLCer. She is wearing makeup, for pretty much the first time in her life. She got her ears pierced, although she swore she never would. Her MLC may be milder than some, but I think it’s still there. So I still need to practice Last Resort techniques; mainly giving her space and work on myself.

In a way, I hate the whole idea of LRT, or at least the "branding" of it as such. Really, all the LRT is, is the renewing of DB principals without much, if ANY concern for how it affects the relationship. The reason why it works when most other DB efforts have failed is because, well, when people give up hope, or at least get to the last straw in their sitches, they FINALLY detach, GAL and do all the things they were supposed to be doing all along...and guess what, as promised, it has an effect on their WAS. Who'd uh thunk it?

I'm not sure how to reconcile (no pun...ah, maybe I did) you saying in one paragraph that you think you're piecing with this idea that you are at the LRT stage. The two things do not go together. I am not telling you that you're wrong about piecing, or that you should stop posting here. Please don't, but what I am saying is that there seems to be a WHOLE lot of conflict in your mind about where things stand and if that's the case, all the more reason to just keep DBing your a$$ off, but maybe without the label of LRT.

But, it seems to me that we can have R talks, as long as there aren’t too many, too emotional, and not seen as pressuring her to make a decision and love me already. So I intend to have a few R talks and see if I can learn more about what I missed that she was telling me during our M (like how she felt about my mom, how she doesn’t like the way I do laundry, etc.).

Ok, but here is a GREAT chance for you to investigate and see if she's "clearly" told you that R talks are not good FOR HER and that she's only humoring you by having them. I have no idea if this is the case or not, but you HAVE to tread lightly here. DB/DR suggests no R talks for a reason, and that reason is that THEY ARE ALOMOST ALWAYS PERCIEVED AS PRESSURE by the WAS, and since your W, like mine, is a known bad communicator...well, you get my point.

I would seriously work on HEARING what she's saying to you about things and rely less on direct R talks. I know directness is the best policy but that's when you both are on the same page. Right now, that is not really the case.

Mostly, I will work on myself and managing my grief. I may get my own C to help me with learning how to find my own happiness and not depend on her.

Yes, please get an IC. They could be the key to all this since you will get a chance to work through your own issues and learn to separate your "crap" from the marriage crap and most importantly HER crap.

As for the grief part, again, if you're "piecing" then why are you still managing grief? Nobody died. What you are managing is your resentment, anger and pain, all of which are evidence that you're still externalizing much of your feelings.

I hate to be graphic, but what you are doing (and BTW, me and everyone else going through this is too) is akin to having your stomach opened up and your guts spilled. You get the injury, somehow manage to put everything back in place and then you reach back in and start pulling bits back out through the wound again. Your assailant has long walked away. The pain you are feeling now is largely at your own hand and while the wound, or at least it's scar, is still there, that doesn't mean you have to reach into it and use it to inflict pain on yourself again.

Again, please get a C for YOU only, and if I may suggest getting a female C that may be able to help you learn to understand the female (not that all of them do it the same way but...) methods of communication.

You are still doing fine. Please stop worrying about where you are at in terms of your sitch (Piecing, LRT, etc) and more on where you are at with your own goals and your own idea of personal progress.

GH

[kirby]

Thanks for continuing to post and help, GH. I appreciate it. Nice long post too, , and plenty to think about.

First, a question: what does it mean to externalize your problems, and is the opposite to internalize them?

Piecing vs. LRT. Maybe, probably, I've misunderstood, but if you're piecing and DBing, doesn't that mean you are more focused on the R and fixing it, working together, having goals for the R, doing 180s or "something different" that will help or fix a problem? While LRT is stopping the damage, working on yourself, and not working on the R.

When I first came to this site, as a newcomer, I was advised to move to piecing. I guess because my W had returned. I think I moved here too soon. I don't know if it would help me or my sitch to move to another forum though. I'm getting good advise here... what do you all think?

Snooping: I think part of the reason I snooped is that I felt so shut out of my Ws life and anything I could see, touch, know made me feel there is still a connection. She is secretive and protective of her life and space. I want to share it.

Fighting: Yes, I know not fighting is bad. She has been showing anger since she came back. I'll take that as a good sign. The MC said every time we fight, I should think of it as a hug from her.

Reading your latest posts on your thread, it sounds like this work is never done, although hopefully it's more rewarding and more teamwork. I guess that's how I ended up here; I wasn't doing the work before.

Ok, but here is a GREAT chance for you to investigate and see if she's "clearly" told you that R talks are not good FOR HER and that she's only humoring you by having them. I have no idea if this is the case or not, but you HAVE to tread lightly here. DB/DR suggests no R talks for a reason, and that reason is that THEY ARE ALOMOST ALWAYS PERCIEVED AS PRESSURE by the WAS, and since your W, like mine, is a known bad communicator...well, you get my point.

Boy, I wish I knew for sure if she were trying, if we are piecing, and if she is just humoring me. I suspect she is. Should it make a difference either way to me? In some ways no. In some ways, I think it would make a big difference.

How to listen to someone who I don't see communicating? Maybe the NOT communicating is telling me something. I don't want to be negative, and ignore all the positive signs (going to counseling, politeness, some caring gestures) but they all could be 'humoring' or her trying not to hurt me anymore (caring?).

I think the distancing she is doing, the Non-communicating, and the blunt comment that she doesn't know if she can ever love me like she used to, communicates pretty well. So I think I need to back way off. No R talks, unless she initiates them. That and working on myself to be a person that I like.

I just depressed myself a little. I'd love to actually be piecing. Oh well. It's got to be done, and it's got to be done in it's own time.

I've been advised to accept the positive signs as real and good signs. This is as much to keep the DBer's spirits up so they can last through the marathon as it is because they are positive, I think. I'll accept the positive signs, and not read into them that they imply more than they do (or I'll try not to).

Thanks again.

[grasshopper]

First, a question: what does it mean to externalize your problems, and is the opposite to internalize them?

Ok, the way I meant it was that you are still allowing HER emotions/problems and the relationship to greatly affect YOUR emotional state/feelings. You are allowing your feelings to then control you which is not helping.

When I think about internalizing, I guess I just mean detaching, not allowing external forces, forces that you have NO control over, to sway your mood and outlook on things. Being more self-centered (in a good way) is really what I am getting at. If you learn to put your happiness in a shell, inside yourself and nurture, protect and grow it, then you will be much better off than if you keep fishing for that happiness outside yourself, as you constantly do when you keep looking for your W or your marriage to make you happy.

Piecing vs. LRT. Maybe, probably, I've misunderstood, but if you're piecing and DBing, doesn't that mean you are more focused on the R and fixing it, working together, having goals for the R, doing 180s or "something different" that will help or fix a problem? While LRT is stopping the damage, working on yourself, and not working on the R.

I have to admit that I didn't really carefully read the LRT section of DB/DR but from my year here, I have formed my own idea of what it consists of and for me, the LRT is indeed all about what you said, but it's also about dropping the rope and possibly going dark. Basically, to me, the LRT is the secession of ALL attempts to reach out to your spouse and basically walk away. Although it's not SUPPOSED to be with the hopes that she'll run after you when you start walking, many people hope that's what happens.

To me, piecing is just another way to say reconciling. It's when BOTH parties are committed to working out the issues and making the marriage better. Usually, that means the affair is over, the WAS is at home and actively working with the LBS on making things better.

I know that sounds like I am excluding your sitch but I also realize that piecing means something different to each of us, that is just the criteria I used to determine when I moved here from the Infidelity board.

When I first came to this site, as a newcomer, I was advised to move to piecing. I guess because my W had returned. I think I moved here too soon. I don't know if it would help me or my sitch to move to another forum though. I'm getting good advise here... what do you all think?

Yes, you moved here too soon if you are just judging that based on where your sitch is but in terms of the advice you're getting, I doubt it's any worse than if you were somewhere else. Most of the people here have been here much longer than many in the other forums, have been through more, and maybe can give advice based more from their own success than theories from books...then again, many of us are not currently sharing your particular experience (although we surely have in the past) so you may find less commiseration here and more "to the point" advice...or maybe even periods of less attention paid to your thread.

I would say that since you're here now, you may as well stick around but do it because you like the people following you and not because you think your sitch fits some kind of predetermined definition of piecing, etc.

Snooping: I think part of the reason I snooped is that I felt so shut out of my Ws life and anything I could see, touch, know made me feel there is still a connection. She is secretive and protective of her life and space. I want to share it.

Very nice piece of honesty. This is a very good thing, to realize the motivation, the REAL motivation behind why you do these things. The next step is to realize that your intended goal(s) are NOT furthered by this action...and stop.

Fighting: Yes, I know not fighting is bad. She has been showing anger since she came back. I'll take that as a good sign. The MC said every time we fight, I should think of it as a hug from her.

Yep, trite and true "Anger is not the opposite of love...apathy is."

Reading your latest posts on your thread, it sounds like this work is never done, although hopefully it's more rewarding and more teamwork. I guess that's how I ended up here; I wasn't doing the work before.

Bingo. And just when you relax, when you think it's ok to go back into cruise control mode your life smacks the $hit out of you and you realize that it's NEVER ok to do that. It's all part of a larger goal of becoming a VERY active participant in your life, not allowing ANY aspect of it to "just happen". I know that sounds at odds with letting go of control, but I don't think so. You ALWAYS want to be in control of YOURSELF and YOUR life, just not in control of other people and situations that you have no control over. Make sense?

BTW, at this point, in my sitch, it still doesn't feel too much like teamwork but then again, I am not looking for a teammate, I am looking for a wife.

Boy, I wish I knew for sure if she were trying, if we are piecing, and if she is just humoring me. I suspect she is. Should it make a difference either way to me? In some ways no. In some ways, I think it would make a big difference.

Absolutely NO, it should NOT make a difference to you. If she is humoring her, shame on her, not you. You start living your life as a man of honor, love and no expectations and if she chooses not to go that way, then so be it. You cannot keep living your life, making your decisions based on what she does, does not do, or thinks.

How to listen to someone who I don't see communicating? Maybe the NOT communicating is telling me something. I don't want to be negative, and ignore all the positive signs (going to counseling, politeness, some caring gestures) but they all could be 'humoring' or her trying not to hurt me anymore (caring?).

Ah, I think you're wrong here. She's not communicating in YOUR language, nor very directly, but everything she does...or does not do is indeed a form of communication.

I just think you need to stop trying to figure her out so much. You'll go crazy trying. Put MUCH more energy trying to figure YOU out and you'll get farther along faster.

I think the distancing she is doing, the Non-communicating, and the blunt comment that she doesn't know if she can ever love me like she used to, communicates pretty well. So I think I need to back way off. No R talks, unless she initiates them. That and working on myself to be a person that I like.

Like I said, the "I don't know if I can love you anymore" is something that we hear at the beginning of sitches, NOT in the "piecing" stage but never-the-less, the fact remains that you don't need to worry about that. She will feel how she feels but you CAN help her regain some "love" for you but you have to regain it for yourself first, and it can't be based on what she may or may not feel, what may or may not happen with your marriage. It has to be based on what you know to be true; that you're a man who's made mistakes but is determined to not make them again, who's determined to grow, learn and love with the best of 'em.

I've been advised to accept the positive signs as real and good signs. This is as much to keep the DBer's spirits up so they can last through the marathon as it is because they are positive, I think. I'll accept the positive signs, and not read into them that they imply more than they do (or I'll try not to).

Have you heard of the book "The Four Agreements"? If not (and BTW, if you have not already done so, do yourself a favor, invest in an iPod, or other mp3 player and start getting these things as audio books...helps a LOT), you should look into it. One of the major concepts the author advances is that you have to accept and learn from the bad as well as the good in life, and the people that "get it" never have to "get through" anything in life because they know that EVERYTHING they experience, from the best of times to the worst of times, is adding to their growth and teaching them something. It's not unlike some of the Buddhist teachings that stress Bodhichitta, or the enlightened mind, a state of being aware of everything and not dwelling on any one thing.

If you can learn to extract that which is useful to you from ALL your experiences and not try to shut out or deny the bad ones, you will have accomplished much.

So, accept ALL things and learn from ALL things. Of course, see the positive things and allow them to encourage you the major encouragement should come from within.

Wow, that was some pseudo-esoteric BS if I've ever heard any...sorry. I get that way about every 100 posts or so, lol. Guess you're the winner...

Stop beating yourself up, move forward and let your W figure her side of things out...and yes, back off.

GH

[kirby]

Thanks GH, I love the pseudo-esoteric BS. I often tihink of what I, we, are trying to do in buhdist terms. I'm not really knowledgable on buhdism, but it definately seems to apply. To love but detach, to act by not acting, to understand by not trying to figure it all out, to determine what your face looked like before you were born, or the sound of one hand clapping. All great stuff to meditate on. Especially, who am I? Am I the H of W? Am I the father of S and D? Which is the 'real' me and does that question even make sense. One truth though, suffering is caused by desire.

On a smaller scale, desire is expectations and wants. I'm seeing that I can't expect anything from someone else, and a want isn't a need. Since I can't expect others to fill my needs, I better learn to fill them for myself - or figure out that it's not really a need at all.

Yesterday, I had a santori/ah ha type moment while reading about detaching on coping.org. What it boiled down to was me starting to let go of her and detach. I felt it. It was terribly sad for me. I think it was grieving the loss of my old relationship, my old views, old hopes and dreams. Of course they are still there, but I feel I've started to let go of them.

I was able to not be in pain around my W (not much anyway, still awkwardness) for the whole evening.

I understand what you mean about external vs. internal. I'm working on that. New habits are hard to form, and old habits are very hard to break. I guess I'm lucky (aren't we all that our sitch gives us the opportunity to change.

I'm sad that I'm not piecing. I am trying LRT, with a few modifications I guess. I am trying hard not to hope she follows me as I walk away (or rather, not pursue. I'm not leaving my kids or home, and I'll be available if she wants to join me). I think I've said before that the way she acted when she first came back really threw me. She lied. She said she wanted to do whatever to make it work, she said she was sorry, she said she loved me. She couldn't keep up the charade. I'm glad of that. I don't want her to pretend to love me.

I think I'm expecting too much out of myself, and her, too soon. You, and the others who have suggested it, are right. I need to back off and have patience, even with myself. It takes awhile to digest all of this. It takes awhile to process the emotions. I went through my W saying she was leaving for OM, gone a month, returned, thinking we both were committed to M, to this, is 2 months. I still need to grieve my loss. I still need to process all I've learned. I need to take a break of sorts.

I arranged for my own C. I have to wait a month to see her. My insurance may not cover all of this, so I may only get one or two sessions with her. I'm looking forward to it.

My friend and I were discussing all the contradictions, like love but detach. He said that a zen monk said "before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water." I'm going to go chop some wood and carry some water.

[grasshopper]

Kirby,

You are doing just fine. I guess I should have been more direct and less esoteric. I don't think you should be doing any kind of LRT at this point. I think you should simply just be learning to live, and learning to love yourself and her unconditionally.

To me, LRT is more about the end of the road and a fancy way to say "Hey honey, I'm leaving now...I'm walking away...yep, that's me...walking away...getting farther away now...working on ME for a change...see that honey...I don't need you anymore..."

You are not there yet. Your W IS making SOME kind of effort and that IS something to build on, but not build expectations. You need to just allow yourself the space to live and grow and also HER the same space. I know that's not what you want, but I truly believe that the most progress can be made when the WAS truly starts to feel little or no pressure to conform to the LBS's vision of how life should be...how THEY should be.

Stop thinking about LRT. You have many more resorts left to get to before the last one.

Just start thinking about what you want to do tomorrow...and then the next day...etc.

Live today. Live tomorrow and see what happens. That's the best you can do.

GH

[kirby]

Thanks GH, It's good to hear some positive feedback. I think I'm doing OK. Doing better.

I'll keep doing what I'm doing, which really is about me learning to detach and have my own life. It's finally starting to feel like it's sinking in.

I know I could backslide easily, but I'm feeling stronger. I setting a goal of going for a week of detachment. I'm not jealous, much. I'm not snooping and not tempted to, much, I'm not talking about M/R and really not tempted to just now.

But, because I value the advice I get here, and because I want to keep a dialoge going, here is a question for everyone: Money is an issue at home. My wife has spent what is a large amount of money in the last week at the local grocery, but I don't see any food in the fridge. I don't want to ask her about it, because that can be controlling and like snooping, but I don't want her to spend money we don't have. Do I talk to her about it? How? My feeling is that we aren't going to be homeless; the kids will be fed, so I should let it go. But I'm enjoying managing the finances again and I would like to know what was bought. Thoughts?

By the way, I know I misspelled Buddhist in my last post. I've always messed that word up, and I don't always spell check before posting.

[kirby]

It would sure be nice if, and will be when, I can use the for the same reason GH and TL do. Someday...

[toughlover]

Money is an issue at home. My wife has spent what is a large amount of money in the last week at the local grocery, but I don't see any food in the fridge. I don't want to ask her about it, because that can be controlling and like snooping, but I don't want her to spend money we don't have. Do I talk to her about it? How? My feeling is that we aren't going to be homeless; the kids will be fed, so I should let it go. But I'm enjoying managing the finances again and I would like to know what was bought. Thoughts?

That ain't snooping. It's a necessary part of any marriage to work together in budgeting and spending appropriately.

You certainly have a right to talk to her about it and you can't allow the need to lay off certain subjects be used (by yourself or her) to avoid the possibility of conflict.

It's all in how you approach it.

We eliminated most of our stress over money by buckling down, paying things off, saving for unexpected emergencies, and simply going without things as long as necessary in order to get and stay in the black. Not only has working together on that helped us, but you'd be amazed at how much easier your marriage and home life gets when you eliminate debt-stress.

[wedge]

kirby,

GH's advice are realy to the point and they make sense. I have read a lot of his postings and sometimes they're to the point that it hurts, the truth hurts.

I am in kind of limbo right now because I am not sure where to start a new thread, piecing or affairs. Just like you, I wanted things to move fast, according to my pace, so I guess my W's EA ended a bit prematurely. Then the other bomb drops , I found out that contact was reestablished. Long story short, I was hurt, but not as bad as before. I'm a well informed LBS. So, I just kept on with my DBing, stopped snooping and just lived life things were OK when my W was around. When I'm alone, I still felt sad and shed a tear or two on some occassions. A couple of times, W brought up the R and I just validated, one time I commandeered the conversation (not bad convo at all), the next day I told W "Sorry about butting in during the convo, I should've let you do the talking". I saw the look of "wow" in her eyes.

I've been doing stuff for me and the family without looking at what it would do to the W (well maybe sometimes). But you get the picture. I did the GAL and PMA stuff. Last monday as I was walking her to the door for work she gave me a goodbye kiss, like always and before turning around said, "ILY honey". I was kind of stunned for a moment, haven't heard it in a while that I couldn't reply back.

Before all that, I kept wishing she'd say ILY, if she didn't say it that day I always said "Maybe tomorrow". Tomorrow came and I didn't know what to do about it HAhaha!

Moral of the story, it takes a while Listen to the people who gives you constant advice. Slow things down a little bit.