Life Is What You Make It.

[pink]

Hi Betsey.

Just to confirm that I don't feel 'ganged up on' So you don't need to summon the cavalry to reinforce that.

However it does seem that you are unhappy with my response ... if you'd like to talk more about that then I'll happily do so. I didn't mean any offence, I appologise if you have taken what I said the wrong way.

We can have different opinions and that is OK. I do not agree with everyone I meet nor do I expect them to agree with me. If you could be more specific about what I actually said to upset you I will try to clear that up.
Best wishes.

Pink

[pink]

I sense here that you may have missed the point. From the way I take what she said was that she didn't think the immature ones were unsuitable, she just didn't like that they preyed on a part of him that was impressionable at the time, even if they were telling him he was making a mistake. There was no judging of their behavior and what they did, she viewed them as a real threat to her marriage.

At risk of digging myself into an even bigger hole...I'd like to point out that he's a grown man. Not a child.

Pink, it just seems like you are having a big struggle of accepting the things you can control, and those you can't. It's okay to WANT your H to do things your way, but you need to accept that he'll find his own way...you can only be you. Also, just because it isn't done your way, doesn't mean it's wrong and if you continue to judge him for it being his way, if your R ever comes back together will you be able to accept that he learned everything he needed to learn by doing it his way? or will you always have doubts?

I am not sure what you think I am having trouble accepting. What I am struggling with at the moment is finding a compromise that suits us both.

You say you dont' want your H talking about you with his buddies...

What I meant was that I don't WANT him to talk to his buddies about me I don't think it is important...I wouldn't ask him to go talk to John because he's a good guy and likes me. I don't think anything they could say would infulence what H is thinking and feeling. It is not important to me what his friends think of me... If H hangs about with guys that make him confused about the R..thats his choice.

but you know what I learned through all of this...I have some true friends who are mature, understand love and life, and know how to love unconditionally...and then I have those that force their own belief systems upon me and no matter what, will never accept that my choices are as correct as theirs...they judge. I have those who judge and those who have an opinion. Those with the opinion are still by me today in my change of heart. Those who judge, can't let go of what they believe is the right choice and can't accept my choice that differs from theirs....they're great friends when I believe what they believe, but they suck when I don't.

You have the maturity to figure out this...why think your H would not do the same with his friends?

Who are we to say that others need ...or are ready for spiritual growth and accountability?

Wouldn't you say, that no matter who you are there's always room for improvement? Everyone comes to it in their own time and some of us can see the struggle of others when trying to grow...it's a painful process most of the time. However, close friends KNOW when the opportunity presents itself for that growth...close friends that are deep in meaning are able to give us the shove we need at times. Those who aren't close friends can try all they want to give the shove, but it will never happen. Sometimes that shove is a risk for the person doing the shoving as at the wrong time could have some serious consequenses in the R.

Exactly ..There is always room for improvement, but not everybody wants to improve. Their choice!

[

Good friends don't give advice, they ask the right questions...not leading questions...objective questions on important issues. They don't project their own feelings into your R.

That is your view of a good friend... I am sure that works for you.

It bothers me that you suggest she should have left so Mr. W doesn't harbour guilt. For the record, you have turned that to place blame, where there should not be any. Things are what that are.

I said maybe...and maybe that is the case.

Speaking from my own R to stop me getting into further trouble. We were both unhappy. There was no love between us...had I not stamped my foot and kicked him out he would have still been here...still unhappy. We could not have gone on like that for ever. On reflection...why he didn't have an A is beyond me, I feel that if we had of carried on as we were he would have at some point in the not too distant future have had an A. This is what I see when I lok back with heinsight..he was neglected, unloved, unappreciated. I can see that now. I couldn't see it then. All I saw was my own unhappiness. If i hadn't acted...he would of. This is just the thought that was in my mind when I wrote about 'something' in an unhappy R having to give. Betsy has mentioned many times about Mr. W guilt. It seems from what I have read if he could get past this... then there would be a very good chance of reconsiliation between them. They sound like a lovely couple that have got a huge wall of something..guilt/ anger between them. If Betsey had of acted instead of waiting till he did then things may well have been different. Thats not a dig...it's not me laying blame it's something worth thinking about and bearing in mind for the future.

My views are clearly different from yours. Thats Ok I can live with that. Hope you can too.
pink. x

[therabbithole]

Pink,

You know your last paragraph is exactly ME and my Marriage...althoug my XH was never gonna leave...never...he believed then that you don't ever leave, no matter what...at least you don't leave physcially...emotionally if you ask him, he was not there for a long time.

And, by the way, I'm all for agreeing to disagree...it's something I've come to learn and accept and I continue to be around those that I disagree with...it's healthy, as there will be times that my eyes are opened wide to things I never thought possible. For the record, I didn't used to be this way. I'm just going to ask a few more questions and feel free to ignore me...

I am not sure what you think I am having trouble accepting. What I am struggling with at the moment is finding a compromise that suits us both.

Are you sure that your compromise approach isn't still attempting to change him? One of the first things is working on changing you...so just checking.

You have the maturity to figure out this...why think your H would not do the same with his friends?

I never said he wouldn't. I don't know if he did or if he didn't, it really isn't relevant. All I was saying is that hoping he doesn't wasn't part of my thought process cause we all cope in our own ways and if his way was going quiet, or going off and sleeping with someone else, it's what he needed at the time. I believe every person you come in contact influences our life in some way. Heck, you've influenced me and my choices and my thoughts about my XH and my experiences, what makes you believe that your husbands friends won't have an impact on him?

That is your view of a good friend... I am sure that works for you.

What would be your definition of a good friend? What works for you? I wanna know because I want to make sure I'm looking at it from a 10,000 foot view.

I'm not trying to be combatative here...just trying to work though as we always do.

[pink]

Pink,

Are you sure that your compromise approach isn't still attempting to change him? One of the first things is working on changing you...so just checking.

Of course it is going to require change from him. But he is not forced to do it. It is his choice. Do you think it is wrong for me to express my needs and desires? Should I just be a quiet little doormat and accept anything he chooses to do? No, I can't do that neither would he expect me to. If I did that I would be filled with resentment and anger. He would feel that and be unhappy. I don't think I ask an awful lot. The biggest issue right now is that he keeps to his word. When he says he will be here at 5pm i don't want him to phone up at 4pm and say he will be home at 8 as he is going to the bar. This is unfair on me and the children as we have often planned a dinner and they are looking forward to it. If he wants to go to the bar I am happy with that as long as he has not made arrangements to see us. By the way...I don't phone him and say come round Thursady at 5...he phones and asks when it is convenient for him to come over...if he suggested 8pm Friday and that is not convenient as the kids are in bed then he can make it another night. If I say Tuesday after work is OK with me, how is that for you and he agree's then he should stick to it.

Sometimes I compromise to make him happy too. I feel good about doing that, because I know he appreciates it.

I believe every person you come in contact influences our life in some way. Heck, you've influenced me and my choices and my thoughts about my XH and my experiences, what makes you believe that your husbands friends won't have an impact on him?

I agree. He has the right to be influenced as you do. Why is it Ok for you and not for him. My H friends do have an impact on him, I can see that. The extent he lets them influence him is up to him. I can't control that nor would I want to. For the record my H friends seem to drink rather a lot. If my H hangs round with them I am sure he will drink more than he should. His choice, I am not going to sit at home and worry about it. I am not his mother. I would not even comment on it unless it begins to effect me. It's his business.

What would be your definition of a good friend? What works for you? I wanna know because I want to make sure I'm looking at it from a 10,000 foot view.

Not sure what you mean here, it sounds quite sarcastic. But I will give it the benefit of the doubt and answer it seriously. My idea of a friend is someone that does not try to mother or stick up for me but supports me in whatever I want to do. When I do as I wish..(and we all do anyway!) is happy to celebrate with me during good times when things go wrong - console me. My best friend is actually 'THE' funniest person you could wish to meet.She makes me laugh and being around her is a tonic in itself. She gives me her honest opinion all of the time whether I ask for it or not and does not get offended when I take no notice of what she says. I have other friends who, like you mention ask appropriate questions and try to get me to think...but *I* find this so frustrating. I like a preson who; if they have something to say says it. Why beat about the bush? It is impossble to genralise about what makes a good friend. We are all so different and our needs are so diverse. There is no one size fits all. I am sorry if you think that odd. Maybe it's US/ Britain thing?

I'm not trying to be combatative here...just trying to work though as we always do.

You don't sound combative. You sound like someone sticking up for their friend. I hate it when people try to stick up for me it implies that I am incapable of doing so for myself.

Pink.

[therabbithole]

Pink,

By no means was I being sarcastic in any one of my thoughts or questions. If I had sarcasm in my tone I'd use on of the faces icon expressions.

I'm not in here to stick up for anyone or their beliefs...and quite honestly I'm not sure who you say I'm sticking up for. I apologize if it came across that way, I was just writing with my own thoughts and I have enough trouble expressing my own thoughts about things.

I was by no mean trying to generalize what makes a good friend, I was just genuinely wondering what makes a good friend for you, as you are right...we are all different...as I said before it allows me to see a different view on things, or consider things I haven't before...and I take what you say and filter it across my life to see if I have any similar experiences to be able to fully understand your point of view.

Nor was I suggesting you should sit around and take things like a doormat...not by any means should you keep your desires and needs to yourself...all I suggested is that you can't MAKE him want to do anything about it. All I mean is that he's either going to care about those desires and needs, or he isn't. You're absolutely right...he should stick to it...but if he doesn't, what is your next move? Do you continue to harp on how important it is for you that he not do that? My question is how do you change that cause and effect? Is there a compromise there you can't see because first you want him to be a particular way first?

I have never said anything on here that I didn't mean from my own heart and head. I tell what has worked for me, what hasn't or I ask the questions that have helped me conclude on my own...and you're certainly free to take it or leave it.

[MicheleTW]

Is it the Fourth of July? Cuz they's some fireworks going on over here!

Pink, I get you. You want to work on your M and your H's forays to the pub are keeping him from being with you and from working on the M. If you haven't already, pick up "Not Just Friends" by Dr. Shirley Glass. It has an excellent section on how our friends frame our behavior.

Betsey, I also get you. And you, too, Nickel.

Mountains, molehills. I am Switzerland. How about a truce?

-- Michele

[pink]

Pink,

By no means was I being sarcastic in any one of my thoughts or questions. If I had sarcasm in my tone I'd use on of the faces icon expressions.

I appogise if I got this wrong. What did you actually mean by this comment then?

"What would be your definition of a good friend? What works for you? I wanna know because I want to make sure I'm looking at it from a 10,000 foot view"

I read this to mean you would like to recognise my idea of a freind so that you could avoid them by 10,000 foot. I appologise if I misunderstaood what you are saying.

I'm not in here to stick up for anyone or their beliefs...and quite honestly I'm not sure who you say I'm sticking up for.

I appologise for my assumption. It came from these comments.

"From the way I take what she said was that she didn't think the immature ones were unsuitable, she just didn't like that they preyed on a part of him that was impressionable at the time, even if they were telling him he was making a mistake. There was no judging of their behavior and what they did, she viewed them as a real threat to her marriage.

It bothers me that you suggest she should have left so Mr. W doesn't harbour guilt. For the record, you have turned that to place blame, where there should not be any."

It still seems that you are answering for, and sticking up for Betsey but if you say you are not then I i'll take your word for it and appologise once again.

all I suggested is that you can't MAKE him want to do anything about it. All I mean is that he's either going to care about those desires and needs, or he isn't. You're absolutely right...he should stick to it...but if he doesn't, what is your next move? Do you continue to harp on how important it is for you that he not do that?

You are so right. Being late on a day we have arranged to spend time together has happened twice now. The first time I was gutted. It was not something he would usually do. I over reacted I know that. The second time made me realise that he will do what he wants regardless and I have accepted that. It is up to him. BUT It is also up to me how I deal with that. So, the plan is if he phones to say he needs to go to the pub that is fine. I respect that. He works hard and likes to unwind with his buddies. He is welcome to go and we can re-schedule for another day. (no hard feelings) This means I can do something with my evening rather than just sit around waching the dinner spoil. I can take the children to the fun house so that they are not disapoited that their father didn't turn up. I also get a chance to have a sit down and a chat with other mums.

Alternatively, I can drop the boys off at the family room in the bar with my H and I can have a couple of hours chilling out with my friends, shopping or doing whatever. We can met up later to eat and spend the rest of the evening together.

The problem is more about me needing a break than him going to the bar. They are his children too. I do the lions share of the care; I need to make sure that my needs are met in order to be an effective parent. It does none of us any good if I am exhausted.

Either is acceptable to me. I just don't want to be hanging round getting would up whilst he is out relaxing. It isn't fair.

I think that this is a fair compromise. Do you feel that this is me trying to change him? I am aware that any changes I 'force' him to make will be
under duress and therefore not real and long lasting. As I have said before I am into making this R work for the long haul not just trying to keep him happy for a couple of weeks.




"Good friends don't give advice, they ask the right questions...not leading questions...objective questions on important issues. They don't project their own feelings into your R."

This *is* a huge generalisation of what a good friend is. This is your idea of a good friend.. This does not sound like *my* idea of a good friend. My idea of a good friend *DOES* give advice!! I want to know my friends feelings on my R . I want to know what they see from their standpoint. It is important to me that they are honest and that they speak from the heart..not ask questions that make me think. Their thoughts, feelings and opinions make me think.

I hope that clears things up a little. I do appologise if I have misunderstood where you are coming from.
best wishes at all times Pink.

[pink]

Is it the Fourth of July? Cuz they's some fireworks going on over here!

eh? Its December here in the UK LOL. Lots of people let off fireworks at the new year though...

If you haven't already, pick up "Not Just Friends" by Dr. Shirley Glass. It has an excellent section on how our friends frame our behavior.

Thanks I will try to get hold of this. Sounds like it may challenge my thoughts on friends a little.

take care
Pink.

[therabbithole]

Pink,

My question was to understand you and what makes someone a good friend to you...what you look for in them to help you that helps you through life the best way possible. I have my own views and when someone disagrees, I have a natural curiousity to understand where they're coming from because I want to learn...to understand all viewpoints and see if by chance I might need to modify my definitions cause I hadn't considered everything.

I apologize if you thought I was defending or being sarcastic, I was just giving my take on things...people around here can defend themselves well enough...no need for me to chime in unless I have a thought that I feel might clarify better.

As far as the pub and him cancelling on you, have you had a heart to heart with him about it? Meaning, the next time he suggests he wants to come over for dinner you take that as an opportunity to say "H, if we're going to make plans we're going to stick to them no matter what. So, if you can't commit to plans, then that's fine also...we can try doing it where you just call when you have time and if I have time then great come on over...otherwise the kids and I are gonna go about business. I can't keep getting their hopes up only to have them disappointed and then extra effort to make them feel better." Then you go about your GAL efforts. You find ways to alleviate your exhaustion without counting on him. But that's just my two cents.

[pink]

Well... H turned up on Tuesday as aranged. EARLY He was half an hour early and we had just got in from a very wet and windey walk so we all looked liked scarecrows..not the best way to make a good impression eh?

Anyway the evening went well. (too well in fact as we couldn't get the boys in bed till gone ten)

Wednesday he came over and cooked dinner for me whilst I took the boys to karate. He seemed a little distant. I know he has a couple of things on his mind at the moment so I am truying not to panic too much giving him time and space to get things sorted out at his own pace... It's so horrible when you see your man going into 'his cave' and knowing the best thing you can do is leave him to it. Every instinct tells me to phone him and ask him to talk to me; but I know that, that is the wrong approach.

We have had heart to hearts about making and breaking arangements. He just doesn't see it as the big deal that i do. I have to keep remeinding myself to keep it in proportion LOL. On the grand scale of things it is a little annoyance. I know there are many on these boards who would give their right arm for their H to be late - just so long as he walked through the door.

I am feeling good about things at the moment.

Pink