This is not the way I inteneded to start my new thread, but I have had a difficult day with D. I have had two major diciplining showdowns with her.
Earlier she was rude, disobedient and by my standards just WAAAAAYYYYYY out of line. She does and says things I couldn't have DREAMED of doing when I was her age. Partly due, I know, to completely different cultures, but nonetheless absolutely SHOCKING to me. We resolved that eventally, with me doing a lot of explaining about what I expected from her behaviour wise and her apologising, if only to get what she wanted later.
This evening she watched a full length film on video and when it was over, it was pretty late and past her bedtime. I asked her to switch off the TV. She started shouting over me that she wanted to watch the funny clips which came afterwards. I repeated that I wanted her to switch off the TV. She continued shouting. I switched it off. She made to pull my arm away (shoving me aside) and put the TV on again. By this time I was livid. I put it off again and she made to put it on again, then tried to kick me.
All this from a kid who is very sweet and good as gold with others around. I told her, no TV for a month and no others priveliges for this week. Then we started to eat.
I was still very disturbed by what had happened, and started talking to her, and she answered me in a very offhand way, like I was a piece of dirt. I sent her straight to bed.
This, Ellie, is what I mean by dreading very much that her behaviour echoes H in some way. The smirk/inability to take something I am saying seriously.
I feel so very very alone. My H is hardly a belp in this matter. My good friend is somehow in her own world these days, and most things I talk about make her eyes glaze over unlesss it is about her. She doesn't seem to be on the same page as me these days.
I don't think people even believe me when I talk about D acting up, as they only see the nice D side.
Isn't nine and a half years old a little young to be acting so rebellious and challenging?
Please help me. It seems as if only D and H can get me behaving like a lunatic with rage.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
I'm sorry to read about the rough time you're having with D9 right now. I was prompted to reply to you because you have encouraged me when I've posted about difficult interactions with my D9.
FWIW, I think the rebellion is a way of "gaining control" in their worlds. It has been very helpful in the case of my D9 to work on the art of compromise. Usually when we are in a situation that we are disagreeing about I can say, "Stop. Let's take a 5 minute break and then work together on a compromise." We come back together and each state what we would optimally like and why and often we are able to juggle things just enough that we are both quite satisfied. D9 is easier to handle when she knows I will hear her POV and will take it into account. There's definitely times when this technique flies out the window in the heat of the moment and there are times when compromise is not an option.
I have a question for you:
Quote: I told her, no TV for a month and no others priveliges for this week.
LNL, I'm sure this consequence will be a tough one for your D9 and hopefully one she will remember......but will it be harder on her or on you ? Will you be able to reinforce this for a whole month? Will the time that your D would have spent watching TV be time that you will need to fill with other activities? That you have to generate and or supervise?
What would have happened if you had called a time out because you were both upset and declared that you would discuss it in the morning? Would you both have had a better chance to state what you were upset about with, hear each other, and work together towards a resolution?
I hope I don't sound all "know it all", LNL!! Goodness knows I struggle with my DD's. But the scenario I've described has worked really well for me (and D9! ). As another facet to this, I've started having D9 think up consequences for her actions. Usually she has to think up 2 or 3 possibilities and then we work together to modify until we are both satisfied that it fits the situation and will be remembered.
Just some ideas, LNL. I hope your week only gets better.
~Alanah
"It seems to me that we often, almost sulkily, reject the good that God offers us because, at the moment, we expected some other good."
C.S. Lewis
I tried to respond on your last thread but it was locked.
I've read with interest some of the sites about NPD. I'm pleased that you've discovered something that seems to be helping you understand your h better.
If you remember ages and ages ago I said that your h was very like mine. Wel my h has a PD too not NPD but borderline. There are some good sites on that too. I know for sure that they helped me.
As for your d she's still very young yet. Of course there will be some of your h's personality in her. I smiled when I read your post (sorry) because I recognised some of the things I've been through with my eldest. I could just imagine her trying to kick you. Anyway, I'v elearned so much since coming to this site and you'll know this already, but you can apply dbing techniques to your d too and they will help you big time. One of the best things I've learned is to detach. My son really upset me the other day but we sorted it all out much quicker than we would have done before I came to this site.
I really lost it yesterday evening and felt full of despair. Then I overslept this morning by setting my alarm to 6pm instead of 6am, so I got an extra two hours of (proably much needed) sleep as a bonus!
D had fifteen minutes in which to get ready for school and have breakfast, and miracle of miracles, she actually pulled out the stops and did so! One of her PA type behaviours is to move extra slowly when I ask her to hurry up for some reason. I swear, she would slow her heartbeat if she could, just to resist my exhortations to hurry up!
I think the key to managing one's kids is to not lose control of one's temper, either by raising one's voice or getting phsyical. I don't remember my mother shouting at me, nor needing to shout at me, much less spank me. But I was a very different child too, very accomodating and eager to please, not challenging like my D. Sometimes just thinking that *I* would never have done what D is doing gets a rise out of me, unnecessarily. What's the point? I am myself, and D is D!
But I do think it is important for kids to realise that the bottom line is that parents do have authority over them and that sometimes simple obedience is required, period. It is not feasible to debate EVERY instruction from a parent!
I also rang my friend last evening, and she did listen to me. She said she had problems with her son too (he is sixteen and a half) and basically I just vented a bit and felt better afterwards. She hails from the same country of origin as I do so she does understand where my anger and bewilderment are coming from.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
I just had a student call and reschedule today's lesson for Wednesday lunchtime. I just realised I have the perfect excuse not to meet H for lunch on my birthday, should he happen to suggest it. I don't really want to meet him. I am doing rather well without significant contact with him, I must say. I have no expectations and so they aren't being dashed!
Looks like I'll have a decent (as in, a good number!) bunch of friends for the lunch next Sunday, plus H's nephew and family are coming down to stay with us for the weekend.
I have stayed in closer touch with them than H has. Does that tell you something? And last time they were here I even invited H down to join us but he declined and preferred to spend the day with his walking friends, the same ones, as it happens, he will be seeing this coming weekend.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
Last night D was a real cutie. First she made a jelly (Jell-O) all on her own, and she was mighty proud of herself. Then she melted Easter Egg chocolate to make a "cake" for me, stuck candles in it and sang Happy Birthday to me! Although it is only on Wednesday.
And she wrapped something of hers up to give me as a present.
She was a thoroughly nice person throughout!
H called this morning. Asked me to please, this one last time, ring him back to see if the phone fault was completely fixed, though it seems it isn't.
Then he asked, was I havng a big party tomorrow? I said, no, it was a normal working day. I didn't mention the lunch at the weekend.
He said he might be coming down on Friday so maybe we could meet up, and I just murmered, let's see... He mentioned that his present of the DVD should be arriving soon. I said I would let him know as soon as it did.
Interestingly, I feel neither excitement, nor fear, nor happiness when he rings now.
But I am bracing myself for the future when he starts working on me regarding the house, I know it will start some time. He has inched his way into the tent (story of the camel who starts out with only his nose in the tent, but lands up with his whole self in, and no space for anyone else) and I know he will only really stop when there is nothing further to concede to him.
Seeing him so much more clearly now is helping me to get closure, which is what was preventing me from really "letting go" for so long.
I have cried a few short times in the last two weeks, but they are more cries of relief and letting go of tension, rather than ones that generate tension and anxiety.
I have had breakouts of acne in the past few months, but I feel sure that everything will clear up with time and acceptance, and I will look and feel better too.
One thing - I realize that this is a board for fighting for one's marriage, and I don't want to be a party pooper here. It was the two year anniversary of the bomb last Sunday and I have been DBing for the last eighteen months.
I don't regret that time at all, because it has finally brought me to some understanding, which I didn't have before. Without any understanding, there can be no closure. The open wound stays infested with the buzzing of the "whys?" (flies).
Michele does state clearly that not all marriages can be saved, but she doesn't go into which ones can't and why they can't. It would be helpful if she did.
I have come to the conclusion that I don't wish to save my marriage any more. Because we would return to the previous status quo, which would be unacceptable. That staus quo brought us to this point in the first place.
Why do I say we would return to that previous stauts quo? Because all the evidence from H is that he does not wish to change or fix or solve, and all that I have read about NPD (which he fits almost to a "T") is that change is not possible.
So much that puzzled me about H throughout the marriage is amazingly clearly explained by this dynamic. Sooooooooooo very much.
I don't even feel anger towards H any more. Just a detached compassion that he had to have such a lousy childhood, and a need to protect myself and not be a victim any more.
And while I have felt great anger towards his OW, especially OW1, I now know that H is really the architect of his own fate. The OW are gullible and naive and needy, just like we have all been once, and may continue to be.
I am choosing to open my eyes and make some decisions. It is easier to make these decisions once one has LET GO.
Hi, It was on your post that I found links that finally gave me some release. Please post about this. I am still hanging in there by a thread but realize much like you that there is nothing to hang for. Life is all about him and his needs. When I am positive that nothing absolutely nothing about him can change then I will leave. I read your info here and can identify needs in my life to address then... So, YES, keep posting on this subject. Thank you. It helps lots.
LNL - Just want to post this to others who are reading:
LNL has thought long and hard about her H. She has looked carefully at who he was BEFORE the affairs started. She's a smart lady and I believe she has given this assessment of her H careful thought.
BUT WARNING! It is all too easy to diagnose a WAS as having a personality disorder, like NPD or borderline personality disorder. Something about the alien infestation makes them closely resemble these states while they are going through whatever it is they go through. But most of them did NOT show these traits before, and will not show them after they recover. I've seen first hand, in both my H and my D14, how clinical depression can take the most caring individual and turn them into a completely self-involved, empathy-less being - and how successful treatment can turn them back into the caring person they were before.
So - just be careful out there - if you want to attempt to characterize your spouse, do so based on who they were LONG BEFORE the current crisis. (BTW - I believe LNL has done that).
Liv, just going to pipe in my two cents worth -- I agree with Ellie that we run a risk in trying to diagnose our WAs. They are so changeable, the diagnosis can change quickly! Plus, I for one am not educated enough to make a definitive diagnosis of anything.
That said, I have been seeing a therapist since about a week after the bomb. It's the best gift I gave myself. In fact, I had worked with this same therapist regarding some post-partum issues about 10 years ago, so she had a knowledge of my and my sitch which was invaluable.
It was this therapist who raised possible NPD in STBXH with me, based on our work done in both 1994 and 2004. I think that's pretty interesting. The more I independently read on NPD, and in discussions with STBXH's brothers, cousins and aunts (not all of them -- I just mean the ones who offered their two cents, believe me), his narcissism has been a lifelong trait, exacerbated, I think by MLC. STBXH began the affairs, apparently, when our children were small (think that affected my post-partum sitch? she says as a small bell rings in her head), so the MLC is not the cause of his actions, but more of a stage in his journey.
I am telling you all this because viewing it and him in this way did allow me to detach. I am not responsible for his fidelity, for his narcissism, for his stuff -- as much as he has tried to make it about me. You know, according to him, had I been "enough" of a woman, he would never had had to cheat, to do online porn, none of it. It's all my fault!
That's why I posted that I realize how free I am and how healthy I can finally be. I appreciate that you are getting to the same place. I'm here for you, Liv, as we both muddle through.
Perhaps there is a link between which marriages can endure through such a trial -- perhaps when one person is dealing with issues which prevent him or her from being clear, then those marriages can't work until the person gets clear. I don't know, and it would be interesting to hear Michele Weiner-Davis' perspective.
And, happy birthday! Here's to the Aries people on the board!
). As another facet to this, I've started having D9 think up consequences for her actions. Usually she has to think up 2 or 3 possibilities and then we work together to modify until we are both satisfied that it fits the situation and will be remembered.
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