Quote: I am indeed focusing on ME and how I need to change. I know I'm the only one I can change. Believe me, I am NOT on his case about this. I know that would be counterproductive.
Great! I'm glad to hear that :-) I was just pointing out something that jumped out at me in your posts...having fallen into the trap of unconciously trying to change my hubby (even though I thought I was helping/encouraging) I know how easy it is to do...glad to hear you're working on you :-) Keep it up!
Quote: Carrie's guy said he had never had sex sober before. That's my bf. I think there are some unique circumstances surrounding LD and being newly sober.
You could have a point there! Alcohol can add so many dynamics such as lowered inhibitions...it's possible he may have to re-discover (or simply discover period) his own sexuality.
MrsNOP, I am responding to the chicken-and-egg theory of relational intimacy to lube the sex; or sex to lube the intimacy comment.
While I totally GET this statement, I have to say that in my marriage, there is a disparity on lubrication and that's where it starts to break down. Meaning, I have to give an inordinant amount of relational intimacy in order for him to feel safe enough to want to ML with any frequency. On the other hand, when we have sex, he gets the intimacy straight away.
There is a tip in the balance scales and they always seem to come down on his side. After a while this gets old, kwim?
I do VERY well at handling this and not dwelling on it (if I do say so myself, lol) but then there are days when I just do not have it in me to give the relational intimacy on the CHANCE that we might ML soon. I'm sure he feels similarly.
I have to say, though, that my husband is good about reaching down inside himself and ML to me, even when he doesn't feel like it. As a man, this is not always easy--cause he's gotta have the wood, right. He can't participate in a semi-aroused state, after all!
So we both make efforts to go both ways, but in all honesty, I make the greater effort. It takes MORE relational intimacy to receive sex, than it does sex to receive r.i., in my situation.
You know, it occurred to me that I am thinking solely along the lines of time spent and effort. I really have not been thinking about how it would feel to have to give your body over, freely and happily, with no resentment present in order to increase the intimacy. That would indeed be a difficult thing to pull off.
He can't participate in a semi-aroused state, after all!
Ummmmmm hate to say this, but some can participate that way HP. My H does almost everytime we have sex, which is about once every 2 months. If you remember he has ED problems and he gets semi-hard and even is able to partially penetrate if I keep really still. (not much fun for me) Its not real fun giving a BJ either to someone who is only semi hard, its really hard to tell if they are enjoying it or not
Quote: How is the desire for sex as a pre-condition to relational intimacy (to "lube" the relationship) any different than the desire for relational intimacy as a pre-condition to sex (to "lube" the sex)? Other than difference of preconditional type?
I don't think it is any different, but that doesn't necessarily make it any more acceptable to the HD spouse. Now admittedly, in my relationship my LD spouse is emotionally withholding as well as sexually withholding so my sich is more complicated, but even if it was a simple case of tit for tat, I might feel that "sexual withholding" was a "deal breaker" in that it was beyond the scope of what I felt like I could reasonably deal with in a relationship. There would be no compromise that I could make with integrity, in the same way that there would be no compromise I could make with integrity in an emotionally or physically abusive relationship. Perhaps, the fact that I was a cr*ppy housewife would make my H feel like I didn't respect him, perhaps this would make him angry, perhaps his anger would cause him to yell something emotionally abusive at me. IMO the solution to this problem wouldn't be for me to become a better housewife. The solution would be for him to learn better ways to express his frustration than by yelling insults and the only way that is going to happen is if I refuse to stay in a relationship in which I am verbally abused. I understand that LD folk can't help that their emotional reaction to relationship difficulties is to shutdown sexually, but the solution IMO is not to figure out how to avoid relationship difficulties, the solution is to figure out how to avoid having that reaction. Otherwise, the HD spouse is under continuous pressure to exhibit "good behavior" in order to avoid celibacy. This is why Corri's H has such a difficult time saying what she wants to hear. Nobody wants to get laid as a reward for good behavior (except in the joking context of a tease). It is frustrating to have to "pay" for something that most married people get for free. IMO this is especially true for us HDW since even the cultural bias is telling us that if anything WE ought to be the ones who are "getting paid". This is why I said in one of my earlier posts that I would like to be in a relationship where the economics were simpler and I could get a f*ck for a f*ck and a hug for a hug.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I should have phrased it this way: My H would never even think it was a possibility to participate in this state. If he can't get it up--or, rather, doesn't feel inclined to even try--then all bets are off.
I think the LDW's are much more inclined to "help" their spouses out in this scenario than the guys are. My H honestly believes that any and all sexual encounters should happen because he is horny and hard for me. This takes ALL of the focus off me and "us" and puts it on him. No wonder he feels pressure! There are lots of ways he could participate in my sexuality without being hard or horny for me but this thought is yucky to him, for some reason. (yeah I know I am beginning to sound like my kids with the 'yucky' stuff, but I can't think of the right word and my coffee hasn't kicked in yet:)
Of course, I am not so caught up in my own side of things that I can't see what the obvious problem is in the above situation: My H knows me well enough to know that him giving me a hj or oral and having NO desire to join in at the end would severely depress me.
So what I want is for him to offer it and then get so turned on that he wants to join me. He (wisely?) declines this, with the fear that he may have to disappoint me when it doesn't result in him wanting to play. I have never known my H NOT want to play after either of these activities but I'm sure he feels a bit manipulated if/when that happens.
I understand what you were saying lol, just was letting others know that its not impossible for guys to participate when not really "hard"
Years ago when H started having problems with ED I kept at him mostly with BJs and he would O even being soft. I never knew this was possible. I have learned alot since then. He got to a point where it was a BIG inconvenience for him to satisfy me physically and therefore avoided any and all physical contact, even hugs and kisses. I distinctly remember a time, about 3 months after my mom passed away, where I woke not long after going to sleep and was really missing her. I handle the initial crisis very well, am the type things seem to HIT me later. I came out into the other room where he was, you guessed it, watching TV and he asked me what was wrong. I babbled to him between sobs that I really missed my mom. He didn't say much, didn't even hug me. I found that very callas. There are alot of things like this that stick in my mind where I needed comfort and never got it.
Anyway, Mrs Preggers, hope you have that baby soon
Quote: I think the first red flag for me here is the assumption that sex equals intimacy.
How is the desire for sex as a pre-condition to relational intimacy (to "lube" the relationship) any different than the desire for relational intimacy as a pre-condition to sex (to "lube" the sex)? Other than difference of preconditional type?
Dear Mrs. NOP,
I think the two kinds of intimacy are interrelated in a marriage. Relational intimacy can occur when there is no sex, as long as the decision to forgo sex is mutual between the two partners. In the more usual case, when one partner frequently turns down the other partner, the other partner feels alienated by rejection, leading to a downward spiral that kills intimacy. I am in a situation now with my wife where I am trying to improve intimacy without any sex life, or even a promise of a sex life, because I want to break this cycle. I think in my case, relational intimacy may be the best place to start because it may be an easier place to start. Not that my wife is particularly interested in either relational intimacy or sex, but at least she is more receptive to the former.
And people can certainly have sex without relational intimacy, but it is unsatisfying in the long term. It is where you were with NOP when the "tossed plate" incident occurred, and where Corri is in her M now.
For most married couples, it is crippling to separate the two forms of intimacy, but we tend to start with one or the other when we've lost both, simply because it is more manageable. But eventually, in order to achieve a fulfilling marriage, both relational and sexual intimacy need to be integrated.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
I don't know that I would like to present it as a chicken/egg theory, because it then becomes some sort of tit-for-tat bartering scheme and that opens up another whole can of crap (and there is no official, unbiased scorekeeper).
I perceive it more as two people being in a place of relational security (or confidence?) and tenderness toward each other so each can express their desires/needs/longings and have those desires/needs/longings recognized as *important* AND acted upon.
But this presumes several things. That the two people are relatively healthy mentally & emotionally. That they aren't having to deal with major relational disruptions (affairs, abuse, cruelty, illness, addictions) from the past or present. That *both* individuals have the ability to occasionally step up and make the choice to "do the right thing" a large portion of the time.
People can have sex without approaching any vestige of intimacy. I can see that in a relationship that is already fairly healthy, sex *is* a conduit to intimacy. Sometimes in a troubled relationship sex can still be good, but I think it safe to say that it doesn't necessarily engender intimacy.
Long term relatively healthy relationships viewed over a period of decades can be seen as something of a teeter-totter with balance being the natural resting state.
Quote: Do LDs really understand how unique and special sexual sharing is, or do they equate it with shopping together or working in the garden together?
hmmmm...I couldn't tell you at this stage of the game where I fit anymore on the continuum of sexual desire. But this statement intriques me. The uniqueness of sexual sharing occurs for me because of who I am doing it with. The presence of my H with me in whatever activity we are doing together makes it special. There is just an enhanced quality to it when he is there than if I'm alone or if it is with someone else. The fact that, because of social standards, I can "legitimately" do other things with other people doesn't eliminate the sense of "specialness" that doing them with him has for me. For me, it isn't the act of sex that creates that special feeling. It isn't the act of any other activity that creates that special feeling. He creates that feeling.
I have found that I can nurture that feeling and I can diminish that feeling by how I choose to think about him, what I decide to focus on, etc. But what we do together isn't what determines that special feeling.
Of course, I'll admit that it's easy for me. I married the best one out there and the rest of you are simply left with lesser beings.
MPT, I can completely agree with this--it is WHO I am doing it with that makes it so darn special.
But I had to ask this: Are you saying that you can get that special and unique feeling no matter what you are doing with him?
Because I can't. I too enjoy his company and feel exceedingly close to him when we spend time together, doing almost anything (cept watching tv). However, there is NO comparison to sharing sexual intimacy with him. That is a whole different realm of sharing, imo. It is sharing your most innermost self...sharing who I am fundamentally (woman) with who he is fundamentally (man) and revealing my most innermost self. It takes a huge amount of trust and intimacy to be truly sexually open with another human being. I don't see how this can compare to gardening!
But I do agree with you...it is the person I am sharing it with that creates the feeling of being unique and special. Otherwise it would feel genitally good, but not be much more than that.
I think that Lillie was talking about those R's where the other person is what makes it so wonderful to join with them and not necessarily the specific act.
And I think you're wrong on the Best One; I'm pretty sure I snagged him!
