Losing, in a curious way, is winning.

[Bridgestone]

"That's what learning is, after all; not whether we lose the game, but how we lose and how we've changed because of it and what we take away from it that we never had before, to apply to other games." R. Bach- The Bridge Across Forever


Re-cap of my sitch.

I am a WAW. I left Husband of many years, together many before we married. We have 2 kids, both teen-agers. After 8 months of counseling, both Individual and Marriage, his job, he is a work-aholic- continued to have priority over counseling appointments, in addition his verbal abuse and anger, which he exhibited for years was becoming worse. He was also taking physical actions to prevent me from leaving rooms when we would argue. Those things in combination were the proverbial last straw and I moved out in the summer of 2007.

I have been working a full-time job that is mentally demanding, yet flexible in its hours, and pursuing a graduate degree for the past 6 years. He is a part-owner & operator of a multi-generational family-owned business. His typical work-week is 70-80 hours, with more during certain high stress times of the year.

I continued in my counseling working on family of origin issues: perfectionism, self-esteem issues, passive-aggressive, self-silencing. His initial counselor referred him to an anger specialist, to whom he went 3 times between when I left & Halloween. He has not been back.

Upon the initial separation he seemed to be doing some DB techniques- "acting as if", "being my friend", but these were from articles our MC gave us initially during counseling. But he was also doing lots of non-DB things- calling at all times of the day & night, alternating between love & hate talk, making promises, then threats, etc.

One comittment we made to each other was to try and maintain a friendship. That has been the one thing that seemed to have kept both of us in contact outside of being parents.

I came to this site after I googled "while your spouse decides", the title of the article our MC gave us. I lurked because I felt like it gave me a glimpse into what I thought he might use a "playbook" to get me back. I stayed because I found that WAW/H voices need to be heard on this forum and it helps me see another perspective from others I don't find as threatening as my H and well as the incredible support from my VR team for the efforts I am making to be the best me I can be, either in or out of a marriage, something that has been lacking in my real-time life, from my real-time friends.

Currently, 13 months later, we are doing couple's communication counseling. My current philosophy is: it is almost impossible for us to tackle the major issues of the R without more effective communications tools. Without tackling the major issues of the R. there can be no M for me and it will continue to be a "friendship" R. If we can tackle the issues of the R, then work on rebuilding a new R for a new M. It still is a roller coaster of a ride, we're just in different cars.

My old thread is here.

[Neilh23]

Bridge-
when you get a chance, please see if i'm on the right track with what i'm doing....i know about my impatience...LOL..
thanks bunches

[Bridgestone]

Good morning all,
Another drizzly day here after a week-end of more rain, more rain, and oh yeah and then more rain.

I have been sitting here since 5:15am, writing my new thread intro (I locked a thread or SC locked it for me, couldn't have asked for a better way to go out!!).

I've been trying to think of what to write for my 1st posting after my intro..

How to recap the past 5 days... not sure I can effectively, but I'll try.

5 days ago- C for communication, big blow up after getting back. Told H. I would not play his 'games'.

4 days ago- Went dark, minimal contact only for the kids, GAL

3 days ago- GAL continued, told H. I can't control his choices, & he has to live with the consequences. He talked, I listened (nothing new there) but SC's bubble analogy made all the difference for me. Forgave H for his lies from 5 days ago, asked him to quit pushing me and this tenuous R back to a M before it is ready. He agreed.

2 days ago- GAL continued, H & I went out for a drive, commiserated about some friends actions which excluded the both of us. Took other friends up on their offer of supper & went to a concert we had been planning for several weeks.

Yesterday- Invited H to my place for lunch, worked on MC homework together, he went back to work, stopped back for ice cream with D after supper. We talked plans for a family vacation to DC. I'm anxious about that, asked him about getting 2 hotel rooms, he didn't see why.. ugg.

D has babysitting clinic all week this week, hopefully will give me some time to get things done for school.

Thanks to those of you who have sent your support via here and through other means. It has been more helpful than you know.

Distressed.. the books should be here today and am looking forward to reading them.

Lodo- lots of thoughts, hesitant to act, still "watching & waiting"

SC- Your bubble analogy was shared with H and he told me he could live with bubbles but not with walls. I liked where he took it and it has given us a common understanding now of that 'emotional separateness' that we needed to be healthy. Thank you

Kalni- It's nice to know someone is reading and thinking of me, as I do you in yours.

Forrest- The conflict cycle seems to fit. She does not feel loved, so she does not give respect. He does not feel respected, so he does not give love. Am still working on how to break that cycle. thanks for all your insights and support, despite our different polarities, possibly resulting in poor solubility, I'm willing to learn.

Peace
Bridge

[Purple]

This time zone crap sux...I have to go put d to bed.

Hi Bridge!!!!

[Purple]

Oh. And I posted an invite to the alternate universe...

[Neilh23]

We talked plans for a family vacation to DC. I'm anxious about that, asked him about getting 2 hotel rooms, he didn't see why.. ugg.

Hey Bridge...

this struck something with me. If he doesn't see why, so what? If he refuses to acknowledge your desire to get separate rooms, just get one yourself and tell him. It's his choice to be stubborn about it and see the bigger picture.....not yours. My impression from this board is that if you want something and the S doesn't, just do it, esp. if they don't want/see the need for it.

My W would always want a coffee from Tim Hortons when we left my parents house. Sometimes we would stop...sometimes we woulnd't because I didn't see why she would want it. The times we didn't stop built alot of resentment in my W, when all she had to do was say "I want this." instead, she shut down.

Now, it's not the same sitch, but the concept is the same. You want something, he doesn't see the need for it. Tell him you need this (perhaps you already have.) Just do it then if he still doesn't get it.

I hope that makes sense....from a DAM (occasionally an Advanced DAM)

[upside_downer]

I like what Neil had to say. Most men are too dumb to understand that even little things are important, like his coffee example.

Be kind to us dummies, Bridge. Oh yeah, and HI I'm a newbie to your thread.

[Bridgestone]

We talked plans for a family vacation to DC. I'm anxious about that, asked him about getting 2 hotel rooms, he didn't see why.. ugg.

Hey Bridge...

this struck something with me. If he doesn't see why, so what? If he refuses to acknowledge your desire to get separate rooms, just get one yourself and tell him. It's his choice to be stubborn about it and see the bigger picture.....not yours.

Since I'm in charge of making reservations, I think I will just make a 2 room reservation.

My W would always want a coffee from Tim Hortons

I was introduced to Tim Horton's about a year ago by a friend from Canada. Didn't realize they were a US coffee thing too. Much better than Staryucks.

I was told to order my coffee by the # of creamers & sweeteners I wanted.. not sure if that was a canadian thing or a Tim's thing. So I'd like a double-double please!! On ICE today!

Peace
Bridge

[Bridgestone]

Most men are too dumb to understand that even little things are important, like his coffee example.

Be kind to us dummies, Bridge.

I find there is a difference between ignorance and stupidity (dumb).

Ignorance is not being aware of something, but having the capacity to learn it.

Stupidity is being aware of it, but not having the capacity to learn it.

I believe some men are ignorant initially and whether they want to be stupid after they have been told
"HEY the little things matter" is a choice.


Finding the line between kind & co-dependent is where I have issues. I will self-silence my needs & wants if I feel that following through with them will hurt him. That is part of what got us into this mess in the first place.


As a teacher I believe all are capable of learning. But not necessarily to the level that NCLB (no child left behind) says they should!

[Neilh23]

Ignorance is not being aware of something, but having the capacity to learn it.

Stupidity is being aware of it, but not having the capacity to learn it.

yes....this is so true. i was ignorant of that fact. i've learned it.

As a teacher I believe all are capable of learning. But not necessarily to the level that NCLB (no child left behind) says they should!

i'm a teacher too. LOL. and yes i agree with what you've said. LOL......we all have the ability to learn...just that NCLB doesn't quite apply all the time!

[Distressed67]

Bridgestone,

Thanks for answering my questions I understand your sitch much better. Your H is a lot like I was as I have said before. Unfortunuately he has not learned from anything you have done or said. Getting thru to him will be tough. I do not think he realizes the part he has played in getting your M to this point.

For a long time I blamed our problems on my W. If she would do this or that than we would be happy. Never truely comprehending how I was contributing to the distruction of our M. She gave subtle hints but never coming out and saying what she wanted or needed directly.

I know you have but apparently not in a way that he will listen. My only imput is that if you are commited to making your M work you will need to understand that he also wants to make it work. I know it does not seem like it but he does not know how and you are not telling him in a way that he understands.

He is fighting your efferts because he feels that he has done all the bending. He thinks you should change, you should say your sorry for leaving and you should be the one that needs to make him feel better. True or not but more than likely that is how he feels.

Again I am just telling you how I felt and was thinking for a long time. My W did nothing to wake me up except give me the ILYNILWY speech. You would think moving out would have woken him up but it has not. Hopefully the MC can help you explain it to him in a non threatening manner. Men are stubborn creatures that do not like to admit we are wrong.

Also anger is a tough emotion to control and until he acknowledges he has the problem and gets help it will be tough for him to overcome. And that is a major roadblock to repairing any M. Good luck, I wish I had a way to get thru to him but I do not right now.

[Continuing]

Hey BStone!

Ignorance is not being aware of something, but having the capacity to learn it.

Stupidity is being aware of it, but not having the capacity to learn it.

Hmmm, I've been thinking about this...

I think we all have ways of defending against anxeity and pain. And we can use both tatics as defences; either ignorace or stupidity, to use your words. But I guess what I see as most important is that, in my mind, neither is completely intentional. I think people are unaware, for the most part, of how they avoid what causes them to be anxious (otherwise the defense really wouldn't be working).

Looking at it this way allows me to have some empathy for them along with anger or whatever else is there in me.

For instance, when a person doesn't not do even little things for someone else that they otherwise love, there is a reason for this. I don't think they are just being spiteful, that may be there too, but there is a deeper reason. For someone to avoid doing things as simple as taking about the trash...or getting coffee, I think thats indicative of how deep-seated this underlying issue is; say control and their fear of being out of control and how highly distressing that is for them.

Needless to say it takes a long time for people to become aware of and deal with these issues. It takes a long time for their defences to be broken and for them to change and become a more complete, integrated, self-aware person.

I guess that where the patience, grace, and understanding come in with relationships.

I don't know if that makes any sense, just some thoughts that I was having.

Hang in there, it took me a long time before I could really see what I was doing in my relationship (and I'm still working on it), and this was from a person who thought they really wanted to and was willing!!

By the way, if you could take a look at my sitch and offer your insights, I'd be grateful. My wife, sadly, looks like she is walking away....


B

[lodo]

Hi bridge, was wondering if you'd be back or not.

5 days ago- C for communication, big blow up after getting back. Told H. I would not play his 'games'.

4 days ago- Went dark, minimal contact only for the kids, GAL

3 days ago- GAL continued, told H. I can't control his choices

I don't think you "go dark" by having minimal contact for 1 day.

So, you know me - devil's advocate. The following is just one big "What if?" - creative criticism to get the ol' juices flowing.

Have you ever wondered why, if you aren't willing to go back, you also don't seem to want to move forward?

I think if I was your H, based on what you said transpired over the last 5 days, I'd be confused too. You guys act like you're missing each other - like Distressed said. He is giving more (which probably feels like a LOT to him) but it isn't what you need, you aren't getting it through to him what you have to have but you aren't willing to give up; both of you are forever circling, stuck in a whirlpool but never sinking or breaking free.

I can certainly understand why you want a separate room for DC. Personally, I think it's a little weird, though. If I were in the position of your H, I'd wonder why you were even going to go, because the message comes across as "I don't want to be with you." My attitude would probably be, "If you don't want to be with me, then don't come." Although I wouldn't say that to my W, I'd just be grateful for the time together.

Point being, you're sending confusing messages as much as he is. One of you has got to figure out how to break out of these cycles if you're going to progress. Based on apparent emotional abilities, I'd say that person is going to be you. Which you probably don't want to hear. But if you aren't willing to leave, then you're going to need to do a better job of showing him what you want in a way he can hear.

So, back to those creative juices. If you go to DC and stay in a separate room, how can you do that in a way that sends a positive message?

lodo

[upside_downer]

But if you aren't willing to leave, then you're going to need to do a better job of showing him what you want in a way he can hear.

Remember that DB'ing involves getting a better understanding of how to do things like communication and love in ways the other person will see, not neccessarily the way you would see/understand them.

If he is telling you something, dig a little and figure out what he is saying. He could be giving you a clue that you just don't see right now?

[Forrest Gump]

Forrest- The conflict cycle seems to fit. She does not feel loved, so she does not give respect. He does not feel respected, so he does not give love. Am still working on how to break that cycle. thanks for all your insights and support, despite our different polarities, possibly resulting in poor solubility, I'm willing to learn.
Bridge

That was just for you.. it may not last.. I have a habit of going back to my old ways.

I have not finished my other thought's.. they will be along shortly.

I am not here to hurt you... I will talk straight to you.. I expect nothing less in return. We both will learn something.. I can guarantee that.

Remember.. I am always smiling.. when I am posting here.. sometimes more than others.

I am setting up a new template for talking to you.. I don't like it.. but I am gonna try. You feel free to respond.. any way you like.

Off we go....

his job, he is a work-aholic- continued to have priority over counseling appointments, in addition his verbal abuse and anger, which he exhibited for years was becoming worse. He was also taking physical actions to prevent me from leaving rooms when we would argue.

People.. when things are not working.. try harder. Simple fact. Think cheese less tunnels. It has to work this time. You try harder too.. you just can't see it.. just like him. You always go back to what you know.. the second you can change that and allow for something else to happen.. bingo. A circle.. has a start that is the end. Applying that to life.. when you get to the end of that circle (right back where you started from) you have to find a way to move left or right.. and start a new circle. Now.. someone has to lead.. really they do. So you posted.. you got my vote. That is all that matters. You came here.. to find a way to change things.. so be it. I personally don't suspect.. you came here for any other reason.. other than you want this M to work out.. or you are doing research.. and I am wasting my time. I will trust my gut on this one!

I have been working a full-time job that is mentally demanding, yet flexible in its hours, and pursuing a graduate degree for the past 6 years. He is a part-owner & operator of a multi-generational family-owned business. His typical work-week is 70-80 hours, with more during certain high stress times of the year.

So you two are pretty smart.. and do well in life. You also have introduced a lot of stress in your life. Add some kids.. dang.. how do you manage? Really what it boils down to is.. two very strong personalities.. that were magic at one point.. and now mix like oil and water. I call this life. Life.. Time.. and Kids.. took their toll. Now you are paying for it. We all do.. everyone posting here.

Upon the initial separation he seemed to be doing some DB techniques- "acting as if", "being my friend", but these were from articles our MC gave us initially during counseling. But he was also doing lots of non-DB things- calling at all times of the day & night, alternating between love & hate talk, making promises, then threats, etc.

It is hard for a LBS to function. Really it is. Can you feel my pain yet? I understand why you made the break.. I can't hold you at fault for it.. it was an outcome of the choices you two made together. All of this you see here (DB.com) is the result of two people.. that had NFC what to do. (We could possibly leave out MLC) Only 1/2 of those people post here. The act of WA is not the problem.. it never has been.. the problem becomes no one can really "see" what the issue is. I have long felt that the WAS is in just as much pain.. and has endured more pain than the LBS. So we can take from that.. the WAS is breaking the cycle. Thats a good thing.. and yet.. its a bad thing. Right here is the fight that is DB.com How does one LBS.. or WAS.. make things better? Neither of us know how to "Do It"... and yet.. someone feels like they have to. It's "Crazy" talk. No one understands!!

One commitment we made to each other was to try and maintain a friendship. That has been the one thing that seemed to have kept both of us in contact outside of being parents.

How does this work? Is this just not pointing out the simple fact.. that no one knows what they want? How can you be friends with someone who is WA. How can you be friends with someone who acts like a crazy fool? This.. I don't get.

I lurked because I felt like it gave me a glimpse into what I thought he might use a "play book" to get me back.I stayed because I found that WAW/H voices need to be heard on this forum and it helps me see another perspective from others I don't find as threatening as my H

So.. I think what you said was.. you came here to get prepared. You found a common thread.. people you knew.. people you could rub elbows with.. people that would agree. What you learned.. is people need to see the other side. Perspective.. plays a huge role in this little "game". On that.. we agree. 110%. It does become.. knowing what the other side is thinking. The key to it all.. is getting someone who is there.. to express what they are feeling. Just as in RL.. its hard! Almost impossible.

My current philosophy is: it is almost impossible for us to tackle the major issues of the R without more effective communications tools.

The second you think it.. someone can see it.

You do need some Snap-On quality tools. The reason I use Snap-On.. is simply because my background is automotive. There is nothing better than a Snap-On tool. They fit your hand just right.. they look great.. they have a Lifetime warranty against breakage.. and the Snap-On guy.. comes to you. Now you do pay a premium for them. Usually about 3 times what a tool normally costs. The reason they cost so much.. is because they take the time to make them right. There is that "Time" word again.. it always seems to come up.

You have to rethink where you are and what you hold close. You left all those broken tools right where you were working.. they are still there.. nobody picked them up. I suggest.. you don't use them either. Look at the tools that are on the ground "broken" and decide what new ones you need to finish the job. The Snap-On guy takes trade in's.. you just have to pick the right tool for the job. Heck.. if he thinks you are going to spend some money with him.. he may even let you try them out.

If we can tackle the issues of the R, then work on rebuilding a new R for a new M. It still is a roller coaster of a ride, we're just in different cars.

The second you WA.. "He" moves to the front.. "You" move to the back. I have always thought the back was more "Fun". How bout we get off.. stand in line.. and ride in the middle?

Now...

[Forrest Gump]

5 days ago- C for communication, big blow up after getting back. Told H. I would not play his 'games'.

So.. you went to the C.. for communication training.. and came home with a bucket full of crap. It happens. That "person" sitting in that chair.. with the degree.. expects both of you to get it. The C was showing you something.. you both get a F.

4 days ago- Went dark, minimal contact only for the kids, GAL

So... the question becomes.. is this not a "repeat" of what has happened before? At some point.. this tool worked. Stop using it.. this tool does not smell like cheese.

3 days ago- GAL continued, told H. I can't control his choices, & he has to live with the consequences. He talked, I listened (nothing new there) but SC's bubble analogy made all the difference for me. Forgave H for his lies from 5 days ago, asked him to quit pushing me and this tenuous R back to a M before it is ready. He agreed.

Right here.. you made a choice. You expressed it.. and it worked. Right here would be a focus point. Look at this circle.. and figure out how you got there.

Yesterday- Invited H to my place for lunch, worked on MC homework together, he went back to work, stopped back for ice cream with D after supper. We talked plans for a family vacation to DC. I'm anxious about that, asked him about getting 2 hotel rooms, he didn't see why.. ugg.

So.. what you did.. lasted 2 days. Then you threw in some more of the same.. and it got you some "Drama". Hmmmm.

Why did you talk about a family vacation.. if you were not ready to make it look like one? I got ya.. Why Now? See.. I told you someone could see it as soon as you thought it.

Keep your head up Bridgestone... it is the only way you can see whats coming.

[Bridgestone]

Thanks distressed, lodo & forrest
I'm lucky to have such ardent posters asking and pointing out things I don't see in the moment.

Not sure they are really 2x4's .. just shining lights on things in my sitch for me.

I need time to think about what the light shows and how that fits for me, in a way that I can post a reply.

Forrest thanks for the new format.. it made a difference for me I appreciate you being thoughtful enough to do it different.

Lodo.. devil's advocate? Interesting picture you paint.. me not getting what I want, but not giving up.. yeah, been told before I'm stubborn. Need to think about the rest.

Distressed: I agree he is not hearing me in a way that I think I'm saying things. That's why the communication counseling and why I'm continuing my IC.

night everyone
Bridge

[Distressed67]

I'm not trying to hit you with 2x4's. I see alot of me in your H and I am just trying to tell you how I was feeling and acting. Maybe it is what is going thru his mind as well. It could be why he seems to be doing things that seem strange to you but normal to someone who was there once.

Keep trying different approches to get thru to him. He is just as afraid of being hurt again as you are. Someone needs to make the first move. I have put my feelings on the line because I want to show my W that I am commited to the M, she is not right now. You are the commited one and need to show him some trust.

All of us hate to be vulnerable and have that chance to get hurt but until someone puts that foot foward the R will contiune to be stagnet or worse go backwards until there is nothing left but to end it.

Its your decision on the room in DC. But this might be a good opportunity to show him you are willing to try. Just make sure there are two beds and let him know you are in one and he is in the other. Seperate but working towards together.

Have a great time.

[WCW]

Childish hotel and bed story -
When H and I traveled together after I first found out about ow we slept in the same room same bed at the hotel(and at home).
Then H started sleeping on the couch at home but we still shared a bed when we traveled.
Then H took over booking the rooms and made sure there were always 2 beds, he would wait until I picked one, then he would go to sleep in the other.
I laid awake all night fuming mad!
I turned the tv on one night when I couldn't sleep. We were in a hotel in CO. H got upset because then he couldn't sleep. He packed up his stuff and was leaving me that night. I didn't stop him, but I did say I thought it was pretty silly to walk out in the middle on the country with no way back home. (I had the truck keys. ) He stayed. On the way home we stayed overnight with friends, in the same room in the same bed and H wanted sex. Huh? Then another 15 hours drive home in silence.

After that when I booked a room I booked 1 bed. When H checked in he changed my reservation to 2 beds. When he went to sleep in the other bed I left the room and went to sleep in the truck.

The next time I booked a reservation it was one king bed. I checked in and made sure it stayed one bed. When we walked in the room H walked back out and slept in the truck - or so he says, I never checked and he looked pretty fresh the next morning for sleeping in a truck!

We haven't traveled together for a couple of years now. I don't know if we would still play the same stupid games but I suspect we would.

That's a long story to make my point of - make sure you are clear about how many rooms and how many beds and who sleeps where before you get to the hotel.

BTW - is this a pleasure only trip or sort of a business trip? Why would you choose to vacation with a man you won't live with?

[lodo]

Whether there are 2 beds or 2 rooms, the fact that you're going will mean, based on what you've previously written, that at some point he's going to try to have sex with you. You'll need to decide how you feel about that.

[Bridgestone]

WCW
this is fulfilling S18 'senior year' family vacation plans he has had for 4 years. We told each of the kids that the summer of the senior year, they could pick out where the family would go on vacation (within reason). He chose DC about 4 years ago and has mapped out the things he wants to see there. H & I are in agreement what we promised him we'd do, shouldn't be negated by our separation.

The initial discussion was that we 'split' the trip. One flies out with them and spends 2 days, and the other comes out 2 days into the trip to finish it & flies back with them. S. hoped we could get along well enough to do it together. I am hoping by then we can too. I am going to book 2 rooms that adjoin so everyone can have their own bed. Or maybe a 2 bedroom suite. We have done that in the past traveling with the kids, even well before the separation.. it was just so H & I could sleep separately from the kids, not from each other.

As far as traveling with someone I won't live with, I have taken several vacations with several people (relatives & not) over my adult lifetime that I wouldn't want to live with either, but they are fun- in a relaxing atmosphere of a cabin at the lake or touring a city, or a road trip- depending on who it is.

H can be fun when away from work. He is attempting to leave work at work when we get together. He is improving.

Lodo:
yes the sex will come up I have no doubts, it does now and we aren't in daily physical contact. how do I feel about it?
Physically or emotionally?

PHysically.. damn, personally I could be in the SSM forum talking with Dancing Queen over there, but it would probably just add to the frustration. Sex was always good with us, I'm a woman in my fourties and hitting my sexual peak.. trust me, it is missed, a lot. It is for me, the one area in our R, where we were 'equals' in the room.

Emotionally... it gets back to my vulnerability and fear of sharing that intimacy with someone who still is not consistent & regular in the care of what is shared emotionally.

[Distressed67]

I think since this has been a long standing V for your S and you both have agreed to try and be nice that your solution of having joining rooms is a good one. I would certainly have a talk with him about why you want the room situation. Get it settled before you go because if it comes up during the V it will not be fun for anybody.

I understand why he would want sex. It is how us men feel connected but he does not understand that you need to be emotionally connected to really enjoy it or want it. This is another tough thing to get thru to us men.

[Bridgestone]

hi all,
I finished a DIY project last night that I'm proud of. I have slowly been replacing fixtures in my 1940's (partially remodeled in the early 90's) house. The main bathroom has had my focus recently.

So far I have put a new shower head on (replaced the old WaterPik shower massager on a hose, with a 'spa' one), put new matching hardware on the vanity & medicine chest, put a new light fixture up over the medicine cabinet.

I have had the faucet for the sink for a while now. Finally figured out I really don't have any water shutoff's anywhere except the main one coming into the house. So last night after supper, I shut off the water and started in tearing it apart. Got stuck with not enough torque to remove a piece from the original faucet & called a neighbor down the street who has been generous in helping me when I have needed a strong set of arms/back etc, in exchange for some cold beverages.

It just took him a minute or two & it was free. So back at it, removal of the old & installation of the new one into the correct holes was quick.

Connecting the pipe from the sink to the trap pipe was the trickiest as it needed to be trimmed to length, & cleaning the trap out was gross! (as long as I was there I figured I'd do it)

But by 10pm it was done!! water turned back on & no leaks!! whoo-oo!! What a feeling.


I am beginning to see why you guys like to 'fix' things so much!

Peace
Bridge

[lodo]

Glad you're feeling the satisfaction of a DIY project.

Next lesson, start earlier so that the hardware store isn't closed when you accidently strip the pipe threads. Starting a plumbing project after dinner is kind of like deciding to install a new version of powerpoint right before you give a presentation. It SHOULD work but sometimes there are some unexpected outcomes.

lodo

[WCW]

As far as traveling with someone I won't live with, I have taken several vacations with several people (relatives & not) over my adult lifetime that I wouldn't want to live with either, but they are fun- in a relaxing atmosphere of a cabin at the lake or touring a city, or a road trip- depending on who it is.

I get that, I do it often. That's about the only way I can afford to travel in my current sitch is if I 'trailer pool' with someone!

The real question though was why you would consider traveling and vacationing with your H when you won't live with him. You answered that when you said it was a promise made long ago to your son. That's cool.

If H said to you, Hey Bridge wanna go on a cruise with me? (or whatever) - would you go?

Congrats on the art of plumbing!!

[Distressed67]

I love a woman that is willing to do plumbing and electrical work. It is a great feeling when you do it yourself and it works. Now show it off and be proud. Great job.

[The Wifey]

(((Bridge))) I actually came looking for you. Sounds like you had a conquest, albiet with the neighbor's help. Still, I'm easily impressed. I hope things are good for you all day.

[smartcookie]

Hey Bridge, be careful talking about plumbing around here, the natives get restless. LOL

Congrats to you !!

Hugs.

[lodo]

Hey BridgeS,

So I'm supposed to go to DC to research some primary sources. Wanna do it for me while you're there? Is the Smithsonian going to be one of your stops? It'd be fun!

lodo

[Bridgestone]

Hi bridge, was wondering if you'd be back or not.

Yeah.. me too.

One of you has got to figure out how to break out of these cycles if you're going to progress. Based on apparent emotional abilities, I'd say that person is going to be you. Which you probably don't want to hear. But if you aren't willing to leave, then you're going to need to do a better job of showing him what you want in a way he can hear.

I'm trying to.. that is part of the reason we are in counseling for communication and I'm in C. for self-esteem & co-dependency.

But as it goes, it seems like with any counseling it is getting worse (hopefully before it gets better). The C yesterday (we went again yesterday) said it is common as a couple tries new tools it upsets the balance of how we hear & listen & we are out of our comfort zone. So while it hurts and things get said & heard differently, it also is a good sign that we are both changing.

Patience and space. both seem to be helping. the crash after counseling yesterday didn't seem as severe or as long lasting.

He went with me to Wally world to pick out a dremel for DIY projects (could have used one to trim the pipe in the bathroom sink the other night) and it went well. It was comfortable and enjoyable. He wanted to walk around Wally World & get ideas for hobbies.

He also for the first time last night opened up a lot about his view of himself as a workaholic and how it impacted his view of the M and me and the kids.

So, back to those creative juices. If you go to DC and stay in a separate room, how can you do that in a way that sends a positive message?

Not sure how to make it a 'positive' message. Suggestions?

lodo

[/quote]

[Bridgestone]

when you get to the end of that circle (right back where you started from) you have to find a way to move left or right.. and start a new circle. Now.. someone has to lead.. really they do.

I'm in counseling, reading new things trying to get a different perspective that allows me to 'do something different' in the moment than I would otherwise. Having the confidence to Speak up for example. There have been times I have chosen to speak my mind & make my thoughts, emotions, wants clear in the room. Sometimes it makes a difference, yet during the times he 'shoots holes in them with his logic', I want to quit. Someday I'll have more energy to be confident in the assertations I put out in the room longer. I am different than I was 2 weeks ago, and definately than 2 years ago. Right now, changing me in a way that is healthy for me, is enough right now.

I have long felt that the WAS is in just as much pain.. and has endured more pain than the LBS. So we can take from that.. the WAS is breaking the cycle.

I would agree

Thats a good thing.. and yet.. its a bad thing. Right here is the fight that is DB.com How does one LBS.. or WAS.. make things better?

I'm trying to make me better. I hope he is trying to make him better. When we come together how the new 'me' & 'he' interact needs to be tried on. And sometimes it is still really really ugly... but I also think it is at those times that we are not the 'new me & he' but the old. The patterns of interaction, percpetions, assumptions, & attitudes, didn't get to this place over night, it will not change over night either.

One commitment we made to each other was to try and maintain a friendship. That has been the one thing that seemed to have kept both of us in contact outside of being parents.

How can you be friends with someone who is WA. How can you be friends with someone who acts like a crazy fool? This.. I don't get.

detachment to a level that their choices don't create the gut reaction in you the way it does when you're emeshed.

My current philosophy is: it is almost impossible for us to tackle the major issues of the R without more effective communications tools.

The second you think it.. someone can see it.

You do need some Snap-On quality tools. Now you do pay a premium for them. Usually about 3 times what a tool normally costs. The reason they cost so much.. is because they take the time to make them right. There is that "Time" word again.. it always seems to come up.

It will take Time.. we have only been trying these new tools for a few weeks, maybe a hour or so a day. I need to give it Time. The see-saw need a chance to rebalance. I just hate it the bone-jarring hurt I get when it doesn't rebalance before my end slams to the ground. I need to remember that when it is hurting, is when we have the opportunity to learn.

If we can tackle the issues of the R, then work on rebuilding a new R for a new M. It still is a roller coaster of a ride, we're just in different cars.

The second you WA.. "He" moves to the front.. "You" move to the back.

Not sure I understand this analogy so much. But I can say that when he is verbally abusive or make work-aholic choices that affect our kids... we aren't in the same car then either. I can only change me, living with him is not healthy for me when he is verbally abusive. I can not change that, only he can. I can do what I need to do for me to be healthy, which at this point is for me to live separately. I can not change his work habits & choices, only he can. I don't have to like it though. No more than he has to like me WA.

I have always thought the back was more "Fun".

Oh me too!! Way more air time from the seat!!

How bout we get off.. stand in line.. and ride in the middle?

Not sure about that one right now. I suppose it's an option, but until there are some changes, especially for my safety, that he can provide through consistant & regular behaviours, I'm choosing not to be in the same car where I'm strapped in with him.

[Bridgestone]

So.. you went to the C.. for communication training.. and came home with a bucket full of crap. It happens. That "person" sitting in that chair.. with the degree.. expects both of you to get it. The C was showing you something.. you both get a F.

Yep.. for the end results that day I agree, however, I am happy with my effort for as long as I made it. 2 hours home in the car with him after being 2 hours in the car to C and an hour in C, was a long time for me interacting with him. It will hopefully get better as we use the tools more.

4 days ago- Went dark, minimal contact only for the kids, GAL

So... the question becomes.. is this not a "repeat" of what has happened before? At some point.. this tool worked. Stop using it.. this tool does not smell like cheese.

It did work, at least from my perspective. It quit giving him/me/us the opportunity to digress down the old spiral/circle/pattern. Provided breathing room, thinking time, processing time, energy building time. Sometimes going dark is just as much for me as for him.

3 days ago- GAL continued, told H. I can't control his choices, & he has to live with the consequences. He talked, I listened (nothing new there) but SC's bubble analogy made all the difference for me. Forgave H for his lies from 5 days ago, asked him to quit pushing me and this tenuous R back to a M before it is ready. He agreed.

Right here.. you made a choice. You expressed it.. and it worked. Right here would be a focus point. Look at this circle.. and figure out how you got there.

by having space, thinking time, processing time, energy rebuilding time to have my confidence to state what I wanted outloud in the room

Keep your head up Bridgestone... it is the only way you can see whats coming.

I'm trying to forrest thanks for the neck brace

[Bridgestone]

Distressed.
I have been through both books< love without hurt, and HTIYMWT.. great books for my sitch. I need to go over them again and again... I need to work on the parts it asks me to work on. Getting in touch with my feelings is hard. I have stuffed them & taken on H's for so long.

As much as I see this pattern described in the book explaining how we got here, it doesn't just seem to be from his perpsective. It also fits me I have told him I feel shamed & disrespected, he has told me he is fearful. So in some instances I see the reverse being true for us, from what is described in the book. Not all the time, but some of the time.

Your perspective is helpful. Thank you so much. I hope you can keep posting.

[Bridgestone]

Glad you're feeling the satisfaction of a DIY project.

Next lesson, start earlier so that the hardware store isn't closed when you accidently strip the pipe threads. Starting a plumbing project after dinner is kind of like deciding to install a new version of powerpoint right before you give a presentation. It SHOULD work but sometimes there are some unexpected outcomes.

lodo

ahh.. but I had already learned a little lesson from the 'plumbing for dummies' book I checked out from the library. After I disconnected the water lines from the old faucet, I installed shut off valves first on my sinks water lines.. so if I did have problems with what I installed new, I could shut off the water to it and turn it on to the rest of the house! THEN call the plumber in the morning.

But, no need for that phone call

sometimes I get lucky.. sadly it was with the plumbing LOL

[Bridgestone]

(((Bridge))) I actually came looking for you. Sounds like you had a conquest, albiet with the neighbor's help. Still, I'm easily impressed. I hope things are good for you all day.

Thanks for coming to look for me Wifey. I have a had a few good days now and a few good things in every day.

I hope you have had the same.
Peace.
Bridge

[Bridgestone]

Hey Bridge, be careful talking about plumbing around here, the natives get restless. LOL

Congrats to you !!

Hugs.

bring it on.. i could use some restless natives or even calm immigrants.


Seriously, Thanks SC... that project has been waiting for a while.. you're plumbing story got me inspired kudos to you.

Peace & hugs
Bridge

[Bridgestone]

Hey BridgeS,

So I'm supposed to go to DC to research some primary sources. Wanna do it for me while you're there? Is the Smithsonian going to be one of your stops? It'd be fun!

lodo

Sure, I love a mission... what do you need?
Bridge

[Distressed67]

Glad you liked the book. Like I said I read it before I got DB and it really hit home. After IC and reading a book on anger management I started on DB.

I take a little bit from each book I read that applies to my sitch or I feel is what I need to use to make myself better.

I will keep posting and giving you my DAM POV. I am happy the MC and your trip to Wally World which I assume is WalMart was a more pleasent experience with your H. Hopefully you build onto it.

[lodo]

dang bridge, you're starting to post like sandi2. This'll take all night to read! Were you just storing up?

[lodo]

Hi bridge, was wondering if you'd be back or not.

Yeah.. me too.

I sent you a message by another medium, but I hope you don't stop posting.

The C yesterday (we went again yesterday) said it is common as a couple tries new tools it upsets the balance of how we hear & listen & we are out of our comfort zone. So while it hurts and things get said & heard differently, it also is a good sign that we are both changing.

I'd say listen to that C - but it's also about accepting those changes. That takes time.

He also for the first time last night opened up a lot about his view of himself as a workaholic and how it impacted his view of the M and me and the kids.

What were you thinking while this was going on?

So, back to those creative juices. If you go to DC and stay in a separate room, how can you do that in a way that sends a positive message?

Not sure how to make it a 'positive' message. Suggestions?

I don't know. I guess I'd just be open and honest. Say "H, I'm apprehensive and nervous about this trip because of the awkward sleeping arrangements. It would be a great relief if you could simply accept that I need the space for my own reasons so that I can relax and enjoy the trip."

lodo

[Bridgestone]

but I hope you don't stop posting.

Things have been hectic here and yes I needed some time away from the emotions of everyone's sitch on here to concentrate on mine. I am a sensative person and pick up emotions easily (maybe I'm part Betazoid! so needing time & space for focusing on me meant not being as involved here for a bit.

He also for the first time last night opened up a lot about his view of himself as a workaholic and how it impacted his view of the M and me and the kids.

What were you thinking while this was going on?

A cross between thinking how much that song & dance has changed in the past 2 years, and just listening, not thinking to argue, but thinking to understand him better, if this is the 'new' H I need to understand his 'new' values & beiefs about himself & his actions.

I don't know. I guess I'd just be open and honest. Say "H, I'm apprehensive and nervous about this trip because of the awkward sleeping arrangements. It would be a great relief if you could simply accept that I need the space for my own reasons so that I can relax and enjoy the trip."

I like that.. thanks!

How's the writing coming along? Mine is at a stand-still. I have an overwhelming desire to 'organize' my stuff again to get in the mood. I feel as if I have stuff in portable file boxes, in 3 different places, and a few piles here & there.

I almost threw some things away the other day because other personal papers had piled up on top of them!! arggg!

Hate that feeling of what the hell was I thinking when I put that stuff there because I was not conscious of mixing personal papers with school work papers. I guess my mind goes other places & I am not in the moment. Still neeed to work on that one.

Off to take my D to her last babysitting clinic class at the Red Cross. I may stop at the nail place for a pedicure. Had one as a treat from a friend, for the 2nd time in May.. loved it. I think I may treat myself to one today.

Peace
Bridge

[lodo]

Organizing and re-organizing can become a project unto itself - don't let it become your sole purpose.

Persistence pays off. Many writers set aside a certain time each day and make themselves write. Otherwise it's too easy to avoid.

That said, I'm overwhelmed by how much time I've wasted staring at a blank screen. I keep telling myself to just write anything but I hate seeing awful prose on the page and would rather see nothing than poor sentences. I know I can go back and revise later, but I feel like too much sloppy work affects my ability to think about the overall subject clearly. Still trying to find my workflow, I guess.

Take care of yourself. lodo

[KenF]

So, back to those creative juices. If you go to DC and stay in a separate room, how can you do that in a way that sends a positive message?

Not sure how to make it a 'positive' message. Suggestions?

I don't know. I guess I'd just be open and honest. Say "H, I'm apprehensive and nervous about this trip because of the awkward sleeping arrangements. It would be a great relief if you could simply accept that I need the space for my own reasons so that I can relax and enjoy the trip."

on top of this, letting your H know that just having the OPTION of another room is important in making you more comfortable. you're not saying you'll have to sleep in one room or the other, but having the option is important to you at this stage.

[smartcookie]

Things have been hectic here and yes I needed some time away from the emotions of everyone's sitch on here to concentrate on mine. I am a sensative person and pick up emotions easily (maybe I'm part Betazoid! so needing time & space for focusing on me meant not being as involved here for a bit.

Nope, you're not Betazoid, Deanna Troi, lol, I'm betting you are a "Highly Sensitive Person". There's a book by Elaine Aron, & she has a website too. I just finished reading the book, & it was wonderful at explaining how I am so aware of other people's feelings, & emotions. Also, how others energy can be completely overwhelming. I'm not sure sensitive is the best word, I think it's more "awareness of subtle changes in people's energy & emotions".

When you're in a crowded restaurant, are you aware of the couple way across the room that is having an argument ? When someone walks into the room, can you just tell their mood ? Are you very empathic & perceptive? Do you just know when someone is upset, even if they deny it?

There's also a book by Aron called "The Highly Sensitive Person in Love". I'm sensitive, H is not. 3 of our kids are sensitive, 1 is not. My D14's best friend is not, & my D couldn't figure out how come her best friend would be so mean & insensitive at times. When I explained this concept to D, she instantly caught on to it, & realized her friend isn't "wired" the same way. This information has saved their friendship. Her friend just can't help it, she's not "in tune" like we are.

It also helps me to realize why I get over stimulated in large crowds, or too much house noise, & H is oblivious to the kids noise.

Hugs.

[Distressed67]

Nope, you're not Betazoid, Deanna Troi, lol, I'm betting you are a "Highly Sensitive Person". There's a book by Elaine Aron, & she has a website too. I just finished reading the book, & it was wonderful at explaining how I am so aware of other people's feelings, & emotions. Also, how others energy can be completely overwhelming. I'm not sure sensitive is the best word, I think it's more "awareness of subtle changes in people's energy & emotions".

When you're in a crowded restaurant, are you aware of the couple way across the room that is having an argument ? When someone walks into the room, can you just tell their mood ? Are you very empathic & perceptive? Do you just know when someone is upset, even if they deny it?

There's also a book by Aron called "The Highly Sensitive Person in Love". I'm sensitive, H is not. 3 of our kids are sensitive, 1 is not. My D14's best friend is not, & my D couldn't figure out how come her best friend would be so mean & insensitive at times. When I explained this concept to D, she instantly caught on to it, & realized her friend isn't "wired" the same way. This information has saved their friendship. Her friend just can't help it, she's not "in tune" like we are.

It also helps me to realize why I get over stimulated in large crowds, or too much house noise, & H is oblivious to the kids noise.

Hugs.

I wonder if my W is like this. I do not think I am projecting my fears or my doubts when I am a little off but maybe I am. I'm not upset or mad just feeling uneasy with her or our R. Sort of like what happened on Thursday.

[ndsmhelp]

Things have been hectic here and yes I needed some time away from the emotions of everyone's sitch on here to concentrate on mine. I am a sensative person and pick up emotions easily (maybe I'm part Betazoid! so needing time & space for focusing on me meant not being as involved here for a bit.

Nope, you're not Betazoid, Deanna Troi, lol, I'm betting you are a "Highly Sensitive Person". There's a book by Elaine Aron, & she has a website too. I just finished reading the book, & it was wonderful at explaining how I am so aware of other people's feelings, & emotions. Also, how others energy can be completely overwhelming. I'm not sure sensitive is the best word, I think it's more "awareness of subtle changes in people's energy & emotions".

When you're in a crowded restaurant, are you aware of the couple way across the room that is having an argument ? When someone walks into the room, can you just tell their mood ? Are you very empathic & perceptive? Do you just know when someone is upset, even if they deny it?

There's also a book by Aron called "The Highly Sensitive Person in Love". I'm sensitive, H is not. 3 of our kids are sensitive, 1 is not. My D14's best friend is not, & my D couldn't figure out how come her best friend would be so mean & insensitive at times. When I explained this concept to D, she instantly caught on to it, & realized her friend isn't "wired" the same way. This information has saved their friendship. Her friend just can't help it, she's not "in tune" like we are.

It also helps me to realize why I get over stimulated in large crowds, or too much house noise, & H is oblivious to the kids noise.

Hugs.

That's pretty interesting. I have to check out the books, as I think those descriptions fit me very well.

How about pegging someone as good or bad the minute you meet them? That is a nack of mine that over the years has a pretty high percentage of being spot on.

My wife has told people about it and said over the years many times, "well I guess you were right about him, or her". Don't even get me started on kids that D has had for friends over the years.

This makes me think about something funny that she would laugh at me for. I am not really sure whether I still do it or not.

When we first met, we would be in the car with the music blaring and I would come to a stop sign, I would turn the radio down. She would say..what are you doing, listening for traffic?

The house noise is the same thing. W and D will have 2 TV's and a radio going throughout the house and I will feel like my head is going to explode.

[Kalni]

Nope, you're not Betazoid, Deanna Troi, lol, I'm betting you are a "Highly Sensitive Person". There's a book by Elaine Aron, & she has a website too. I just finished reading the book, & it was wonderful at explaining how I am so aware of other people's feelings, & emotions. Also, how others energy can be completely overwhelming. I'm not sure sensitive is the best word, I think it's more "awareness of subtle changes in people's energy & emotions".

When you're in a crowded restaurant, are you aware of the couple way across the room that is having an argument ? When someone walks into the room, can you just tell their mood ? Are you very empathic & perceptive? Do you just know when someone is upset, even if they deny it?

There's also a book by Aron called "The Highly Sensitive Person in Love". I'm sensitive, H is not. 3 of our kids are sensitive, 1 is not. My D14's best friend is not, & my D couldn't figure out how come her best friend would be so mean & insensitive at times. When I explained this concept to D, she instantly caught on to it, & realized her friend isn't "wired" the same way. This information has saved their friendship. Her friend just can't help it, she's not "in tune" like we are.

It also helps me to realize why I get over stimulated in large crowds, or too much house noise, & H is oblivious to the kids noise.

Hugs.

So I am not crazy after all? My friends call me witch, my bosses ask me about people and what I think of them before they agree to something... Well, didn't help me much with my H but still, good to know there more of us out there (weird music playing).

Bridge, I am reading, following... Take your time and get yourself "grounded". "Overheating" never helped anyone...
(I hope my English is just funny and not tragic),
Take care,
L&XXX
K

[Forrest Gump]

I'm in counseling, reading new things trying to get a different perspective that allows me to 'do something different' in the moment than I would otherwise. Having the confidence to Speak up for example. There have been times I have chosen to speak my mind & make my thoughts, emotions, wants clear in the room. Sometimes it makes a difference, yet during the times he 'shoots holes in them with his logic', I want to quit. Someday I'll have more energy to be confident in the assertations I put out in the room longer. I am different than I was 2 weeks ago, and definately than 2 years ago. Right now, changing me in a way that is healthy for me, is enough right now.

Ok.. so you have a idea of what works. It's not perfect.. but it seems to effect things for the better when you talk clearly. When he responds with logic.. he is most likely telling you he does not understand everything. Or he sees a way you should be able to fix it. He is fixing it from his frame of mind. Again.. I go back to the whole.. start talking.. stop talking.. both digest theme. You have to allow for both points to be understood. He does not need to respond.. neither do you.. at that specific moment. I think you have the point where communication breaks down.. defined pretty clearly. My personal thought is that you two are focusing on "fixing" it at the break down point or before the break down point. I kinda think maybe you should just let the communication break.. and then take to your corners.

by having space, thinking time, processing time, energy rebuilding time to have my confidence to state what I wanted outloud in the room

I understand that this is about changes you are making. We may drift apart here on this thought. The changes you make.. need to have a mindset of making both "people" happy. I mean the goal is to make the R better. So within the setting of DB.com.. you need to understand.. and I think you do.. something that works for you.. may not be so clear to the other person. The other person may.. see it as more of the same with cherries on top. The idea is to pull yourself out.. and in doing so they run along behind you. Someone used a dancing analogy once.. you can ask for someone to dance.. and leave the option for them to say yes or no.. or you can say nothing and hold your hand out.. and leave the option for them to say yes or no. You don't need to understand.. why they said yes or no.

[Bridgestone]

Say "H, I'm apprehensive and nervous about this trip because of the awkward sleeping arrangements. It would be a great relief if you could simply accept that I need the space for my own reasons so that I can relax and enjoy the trip.
on top of this, letting your H know that just having the OPTION of another room is important in making you more comfortable. you're not saying you'll have to sleep in one room or the other, but having the option is important to you at this stage.

Great ideas.. thanks so much for them!!

We are doing the talking/listening wheel tonight as homework for the communications counseling we are going to .. I think this will be what I ask him to listen to for me.

I need to go practice this as it is not how I'm use to talking with him.

I need to change that.

Peace
Bridge

[Bridgestone]

I am a sensative person and pick up emotions easily (maybe I'm part Betazoid! so needing time & space for focusing on me meant not being as involved here for a bit.

Nope, you're not Betazoid, Deanna Troi, lol, I'm betting you are a "Highly Sensitive Person". There's a book by Elaine Aron, & she has a website too.

OMG... this sounds so much like me & mydaughter. I am ordering from Amazon today!! thank you so much.

I'm not sure sensitive is the best word, I think it's more "awareness of subtle changes in people's energy & emotions".

much better explanation!!

When you're in a crowded restaurant, are you aware of the couple way across the room that is having an argument ?

yep and the drama in the kitchen and the lovers in the corner and etc. etc.

When someone walks into the room, can you just tell their mood ? Are you very empathic & perceptive? Do you just know when someone is upset, even if they deny it?

yep, yep, yep

When I explained this concept to D, she instantly caught on to it, & realized her friend isn't "wired" the same way. This information has saved their friendship. Her friend just can't help it, she's not "in tune" like we are.

I am hoping to get my D to read pieces of the book to help her understand herself better as well.

It also helps me to realize why I get over stimulated in large crowds, or too much house noise, & H is oblivious to the kids noise.

This is not me so much, but is my D. I love to people watch. I can tolerate a lot of 'chaos', must be the teacher in me? Being sensitive is good in a teaching situation because i can tell pretty good with minimal body language which students are 'stuck', which ones 'have got it' and which ones are apathetic!


Thanks for all the good ideas & thoughts!
Glad you're home safely.
Bridge

[Bridgestone]

Kalni,
thanks for stopping by & reading. It's comforting to know others out there have my back

my bosses ask me about people and what I think of them before they agree to something... Well, didn't help me much with my H but still, good to know there more of us out there (weird music playing).

my bosses ask me as well!!

I sit on a lot of interviewing committees for new hires because I get a read on people quickly and pick up nuances of things that either 'fit' or don't fit what they are telling us.

Bridge

[Bridgestone]

How about pegging someone as good or bad the minute you meet them? That is a nack of mine that over the years has a pretty high percentage of being spot on.

oh yeah... maybe not the minute but within a few of talking and interacting with them. I've been called judgemental because of it, but what is that book that is 'hot' right now about making snap decisions? in a blink or something like that? talks about going with your gut feeling when making decisions.

Not sure if that is always applicable to DB and reacting to emotion, but how do you explain to someone else..

"I just had a feeling about that or that or them..." and acted accordingly??

Thanks for stopping by!
Bridge

[Bridgestone]

My personal thought is that you two are focusing on "fixing" it at the break down point or before the break down point. I kinda think maybe you should just let the communication break.. and then take to your corners.

And by take to your corners do you mean in the boxing ring? Because that is usually where we go when communications break down. That is harmful to the R., feeds my fears & I pull further & further away, makes him feel like a failure so he pushes harder to 'fix it'. ugg...

or do you mean let it break down and go "opps!! We need to take a break come back when we can do it better" ??

by having space, thinking time, processing time, energy rebuilding time to have my confidence to state what I wanted outloud in the room

I understand that this is about changes you are making. We may drift apart here on this thought. The changes you make.. need to have a mindset of making both "people" happy. I mean the goal is to make the R better. So within the setting of DB.com.. you need to understand.. and I think you do.. something that works for you.. may not be so clear to the other person. The other person may.. see it as more of the same with cherries on top. The idea is to pull yourself out.. and in doing so they run along behind you. Someone used a dancing analogy once.. you can ask for someone to dance.. and leave the option for them to say yes or no.. or you can say nothing and hold your hand out.. and leave the option for them to say yes or no. You don't need to understand.. why they said yes or no.

I'm still ruminating on this one... I'm struggling to see how that fits my sitch? I'm suppose to make the changes that are good for me, doing what I need to do that is healthy for me, with the intentions of making us both happy??

If that is what you are saying, then as someone who is struggling with co-dependent issues.. that is a very narrow line for me to walk. I'm getting better, but I know I'm not there yet.

OR is it that

I'm suppose to work on me for the good of the R and hope he runs along behind working on himself??

Sorry if I'm being dense here.. I'm seeing a glimmer of light of understanding with this after thinking about it for a few days since you posted it. Just asking for some more clarification.

Thanks for your help & insight!

Bridge

[Forrest Gump]

And by take to your corners do you mean in the boxing ring?

Not really. But.. you just may have made my case more clear.

Because that is usually where we go when communications break down. That is harmful to the R., feeds my fears & I pull further & further away, makes him feel like a failure so he pushes harder to 'fix it'. ugg...

Because the communication.. becomes a fight. Fair enough. You walked into it thinking it would be a fight.. right? Gotta get your "gumption" up. It is that second guessing.. that expectation.. that gets you. You may walk into this.. whole communication thing.. with your gloves up. You gotta expect some fight will come your way. You don't want the fight.. It makes you WA. Leaves you feeling.. exactly the way you thought you would.

"Corners"

I like the preparing part.. get ready for battle. The thing most people miss is the "faking out" that comes from the "corner dance".. Some people sit.. some people dance around.. some people turn their backs. The other side can't see the preparation that came from knowing their opponent. That guy standing in the corner knows every move the other guy can make.. and is prepared to counteract what he knows is coming.

In RL we can't act like that.. we can be prepared.. but not for the fight. We need to be prepared to shut the fight down. I fail at it to. I don't always get it right. I expect you will to.

You are on the right track.

or do you mean let it break down and go "opps!! We need to take a break come back when we can do it better" ??

There is no "opps" to it.. you know it is going to break.. so that leaves us with...

We need to take a break come back when we can do it better.

Right here.. is where things need to change. Hence the little "pocket trick" I suggested.

I'm supposed to make the changes that are good for me, doing what I need to do that is healthy for me, with the intentions of making us both happy??

Is that what you want.. For both of you to be happy?

This is a walk of you.. I understand that.. and I don't want to take away from it. But.. if you want "things" to be better.. then YES.. 110% to the question you just asked me. And I get to use my catch phrase.. You posted.. you got my vote. Thats all that matters.

If that is what you are saying, then as someone who is struggling with co-dependent issues.. that is a very narrow line for me to walk. I'm getting better, but I know I'm not there yet.

How fine is the line I am walking now.. with you? Trust me.. I am applying myself.

You don't need him to be the best you can be. You want him to see the best you can be. Am I wrong?

I'm supposed to work on me for the good of the R and hope he runs along behind working on himself??

Is this not a somewhat redundant question. If he can see the best in you.. would he not follow? And if he did not.. what did you loose? What if he already knows you are the best.

Sorry if I'm being dense here.. I'm seeing a glimmer of light of understanding with this after thinking about it for a few days since you posted it. Just asking for some more clarification.

I knew you were a thinker. I am too. I think about stuff all the time.. it gets out of control at times. The thing you may not have seen was.. I did not push the issue.. I waited for you to come to me. I knew that one day.. we would talk. I made sure that I was on solid ground... and made my approach. I did not know what you would say.. I just knew "something" would happen.


You are smart.. and yet cautious.

Sometimes you think too far ahead.

If you lead a bit.. I think he will follow you.

[lodo]

hey bridge,

Nothing to add - Just saying hi - hope you're doing okay.

What did you do today?

[smartcookie]

The house noise is the same thing. W and D will have 2 TV's and a radio going throughout the house and I will feel like my head is going to explode.

Me too ! I have started driving in my car with no radio on at all. Then at home, I keep my Ipod nearby, & turn on soothing music when the house gets too loud with tv's & video games.

Just realizing why it's bugging me helps too. Before I thought everybody was agitated, & couldn't figure out why they didn't say something. lol

[smartcookie]

<<OMG... this sounds so much like me & mydaughter. I am ordering from Amazon today!! thank you so much.

You're so very welcome. I love when I find book that helps explain why I'm weird. LOL (okay, maybe unique is a better word).

<< yep and the drama in the kitchen and the lovers in the corner and etc. etc.

exactly !

<<yep, yep, yep

doesn't it drive you nuts when they try to deny it ???

<<I am hoping to get my D to read pieces of the book to help her understand herself better as well.

It sure helps.

<<This is not me so much, but is my D. I love to people watch. I can tolerate a lot of 'chaos', must be the teacher in me? Being sensitive is good in a teaching situation because i can tell pretty good with minimal body language which students are 'stuck', which ones 'have got it' and which ones are apathetic!

Maybe you're got good enough boundaries to block it out in chaos. My mom texted me the other day, she said she was on a ferry with a bunch of people from another country, & they were all talking so fast in their language, & she was about to jump overboard from the stress it was causing her. We had to laugh about it together. Then I reminded her about her "bubble" & she said that helped tons.

<<Thanks for all the good ideas & thoughts!

It's my pleasure. Hugs

[Neilh23]

hey bridge...

I can tolerate a lot of 'chaos', must be the teacher in me? Being sensitive is good in a teaching situation because i can tell pretty good with minimal body language which students are 'stuck', which ones 'have got it' and which ones are apathetic!

i assume you said that to SC somewhere......being a teacher, we have to have infinite patience. HOw do you apply your "teaching" patience to your sitch? I'm having difficulty doing that....any insights would be greatly appreciated...thanks!

[Bridgestone]

Hi everyone
((lodo)) ((SC)) ((FG)) ((NEIL))
for stopping by my thread

had communications counseling again yesterday which ended up being more MC, which was good actually.

I'll add more later...D13 (almost 14) & I are going to my parents where we'll do the annual sweet corn cook & freeze event. Hoping to get through 2 bushels this morning before it gets too hot.

This is usually an event with H's side of the family (we've done 200 quart in a day with them before- it is quite an assembly line!!)

I decided to do it with my family this year.

I have a shower to attend for H's nephew on Saturday, as one of the 'aunts' I asked what H's immediate (me, H, S, D) family could do to contribute to the shower, I'm now making fruit salad for 3 dozen women

(no modern day couples showers for this midwestern, family no sir-ee...fun & stupid games galore... uggg) Oh well, I asked for it. I'll act as if..

I guess DB comes in handy in lots of places!

[Neilh23]

hey bridge...

I can tolerate a lot of 'chaos', must be the teacher in me? Being sensitive is good in a teaching situation because i can tell pretty good with minimal body language which students are 'stuck', which ones 'have got it' and which ones are apathetic!

i assume you said that to SC somewhere......being a teacher, we have to have infinite patience. HOw do you apply your "teaching" patience to your sitch? I'm having difficulty doing that....any insights would be greatly appreciated...thanks!

bridge...actually..this is what i'm looking for..your input on this! thanks!

[smartcookie]

Hi Bridge, how much corn did you manage to do ? Hugs.

[Bridgestone]

Hi,
2 bushel to start- yielded 45 pints.

I will be canning some beef when I get back from vacation in a few weeks. Hopefully the garden coop I belong to will have extra tomatoes this summer (they did not last summer) & I can make & can my favorite salsa as well.

I keep meaning to pop over to your thread and offer my support. BTDT, still doing it. Just when you think it's safe to go back into the water.... (sigh).

Thanks for stopping by.

[Bridgestone]

Neil..
I haven't forgotten your request.. I'm formulating the answer.

I usually think best when I'm driving & I have not been doing a lot of that lately (given the high diesel prices).

I need to find another way to 'think'.

Thanks for the support & stopping by.
Bridge

[Neilh23]

Bridge....it's all good. take your time. I'm finding it difficult to figure out how without taking the teacher/student roles and placing them on my W...LOL...

thanks

[smartcookie]

You sound so much like me, it's almost scary. I need to find this post where I talked about the fact that I felt like I had to do EVERYTHING, & it had to be done right, so I had to carry the weight of the world on my shoulders.

I would like to see this post as well, you have such a succinct, yet eloquent way of putting so many of us (WAW & AWAW) into words.

Bridge, I found it.....I couldn't put it on goldey's thread because she's locked. Hugs.


posted 6/10 by smartcookie;

I've been realizing that I used to do EVERYTHING. I thought EVERYTHING had to be done a certain way & by a certain time, & that nobody else was going to do it, so I HAD to. When did I choose to become a martyr ? As a child...? or more recently...?

I've been thinking about the way "things used to be" around here.

I am really not exaggerating when I say that H went to work, ate, watched TV, slept, & showered here. For the last 2 years he's worked 8 hour days, for the previous 12 years he worked 10-11 hour days, & traveled as much as 14 weeks out of the year. He was verbally & emotionally abusive, & extremely disconnected from the kids & I. He was chauvanistic, & even told people he met me while I was working at a topless bar. (His best friend introduced us, I never worked at a topless bar).

I did EVERYTHING. I raised the kids. I did baths, teeth, hair, bedtime stories, nightmares, sick kids, & taught them everything from tie-ing shoes to how to drive a car. I'm the easter bunny, tooth fairy & Santa all in one. I took our kids to every doctor appointment & dental appointment, eye exam they've ever had. I did all the shopping, cooking, house work, laundry, yard work (including mowing until my boys were old enough), taking out trashes, getting cars serviced, all the banking, dry cleaning, & every other errand he needed. I cleaned out the garage, and even packed H & the boys for camping trips that I didn't go on. I put salt in the water softener, took care of a broken water heater, learned to fix toilets, changed fuses & air filters, you get the picture. Oh, & our sex wasn't good at all.

I remember one time when our youngest was 2 weeks old... H came home from work & got mad, saying he thought the house could be cleaner. I just cried. I had a 2 week old, & 3 other small kids. I drove myself to exhaustion for years, trying to meet his approval. I did everything to try to make him happy. I thought if I was "supermom" he'd love me more. So much of what I did was to make him happy. Why did I put his approval before my own ?

I realize that when I was younger, I always thought if I was good enough, quiet enough, or smart enough, someone would love me. When did this transfer to my marriage ?

A few years ago, I burned out. I hit the wall of depression and exhaustion & frustration. I gradually quit doing a lot of things, & guess what, H started doing some of those things.

H's can change. Mine has. He even says that last year I kicked his *ss & he needed it. He says he's happier now than he's ever been. He's a better person, husband & father. The kids like him better, heck even the dog likes him now.

Here's some of the things he does now that he didn't used to;

e-mails me every few days telling me how much he loves & appreciates me
sends me romantic e-cards about once a week
helps get our youngest ready for school, makes his lunch, drives him to school
drives our other kids when they need a ride
helps D14 with algebra, & S8 with all his homework
plays chess/checkers with the kids
takes kids for ice cream cones
helps me with the dishes, helps clean up after dinner
helps me fold laundry
helps me put clean sheets on our bed
helps clean whatever I ask him to
takes care of front & back yard, & pool
takes out all the trash, (or tells the boys to do it)
I don't even think about trash anymore
Calls on his way home, offers to stop & pick up bread, milk, whatever I need
Calls me once a day to tell me he's thinking of me
Asks me how my day was, & looks in my eyes while I answer
Whenever I tell him something, he mutes the TV so he can listen to me
We watch the TV shows we both enjoy ( it used to be HIS TV & he only watched the news & sports, I would watch TV in another room )
He offers me foot rubs several times a week
offers me full body massages several times a week
offers to run me a bath when he sees that I'm tired
he compliments me frequently, & not just saying "you look nice"
He's specific, "that blouse really makes your eyes look green"
Now, he listens if I want to talk about my childhood, & he holds me when I cry
He has read 6 or 8 books that I asked him to, & he's no longer abusive in anyway.
Sex, is better than I ever imagined. He takes care of me first, & always.

A lot of my friends say H's never change. They're wrong, they do. Mine's proof of that. A lot of the H's here have changed too. I hear it in their voices, in their pain. Now, if their ready to WAW would just wait & watch & sit on a very uncomfortable fence for as long as it takes. She might end up with the marriage she's always dreamed about.

[Purple]

One word....wow...

gotta go get ready...

[Bridgestone]

thanks SC... I'll copy that into my words of wisdom file I'm creating. along with your 'she wanted you to know'piece.

Hope your day is better.
thanks for stopping by & checking on me
(((SC)))

Bridge

[Bridgestone]

HI PURPLE!!!
good to 'see' you here. I've been wondering how things are going. Your thread has been quiet.

Thanks for stopping by.
Bridge

[smartcookie]

*waves* I'm avoiding going to bed.

[Purple]

*waves too* I'm avoiding work!!

[Bridgestone]

Hi everyone.
thanks for the waves purple & cookie, and for checking in with me Tim & Neil.

We have been to communications counseling two times in the past 10 days. We don't go again for another 10 days.

One of the sessions ended up being MC because of some major drama that occured earlier last week. We were trying to use some of the tools for listening & talking given to us for better communication.

I heard him just fine, he heard me just fine. We found out, we don't have the tools to resolve conflicts in a way that is healthy. Compromise is not a win/win, it is a lose/lose.
both parties feel resentful with a compromise, especially if it is a resolution that is implemented and dealt with daily. Both are reminded that this really isn't what you wanted or needed, it's what you could agree to in the moment without a better option.

H learned a bit more from the counselor about his communication style when 'hearing' my feelings. It took the C about 10 minutes to walk him through how to do that in a way that is effective and meaningful. H was in tears for most of it.

He walked out of that session feeling very depressed and hopeless. In fact the better part of the following week was spent with him actively expressing his doubt of being able to do what the C showed him.

I wanted so badly to say, 'well, if you'd get into IC yourself and work on some of your own issues of control, self-esteem, & anger, maybe it would be easier to be compassionate'.

But I didn't I just listened and validated. Encouraged him to try again and reinforced it was ok to make mistakes in learning to apologize and listen in a caring & compassionate way.

FG asked if I wanted him to be the best I could be or see the best I could be. I want him to see my best, but I also want him to strive for his own 'best'. Me leading him to communications counseling seems to only be pointing out to him the things that he is not doing effectively & some of what has undermined this R for years. Now that he is seeing it, it's like he's shutting down, not doing either the negative (or at least less of it), but also not picking up the tools the C gives us to improve communication. uggg...

I can not change him, he makes his own choices.

I can only change me and use what the C has given us/me to be more effective at interacting with him, clearly, compassionately, and caringly.

I have learned that my questioning (the teacher in me again) is not appropriate in many situations with intimate communication. This is contradictory to my nature & to what I have believed about communicating in the past.

I need to work on that a lot. Especially, my 'why' questions.
What is so natural for understanding students & what they know in a classroom, apparently is not appropriate for understanding people in relationships.

That frustrates me a lot and I'm pondering why it is making me so anxious (to the point of tears & upset tummy) to not be able to (or shouldn't be) asking my "why" questions of H??

That's about it for the update... I am headed for DC in 48 hours for a vacation. And am really looking forward to it.

Peace
Bridge

[Coach]

Bridge, Let me take a stab at this. Use your teaching skills here as well - he's not "getting" it so ask/teach another way.

That frustrates me a lot and I'm pondering why it is making me so anxious (to the point of tears & upset tummy) to not be able to (or shouldn't be) asking my "why" questions of H??

He sees you frustrated, he's let you down already. You ask "why" ? That's now threatening to him. He probaly did what he did to please you - now you are frustrated and upset and want to know why. He sees himself as failing you as a husband. The "why" is now viewed as an attack - men get attacked we defend, and we use the coping mechanisms we have and most likely ineffective.
Instead of asking, Why did you do ________? Try - When you do _______ it makes me feel _________.
Does that make sense?

[Distressed67]

He walked out of that session feeling very depressed and hopeless. In fact the better part of the following week was spent with him actively expressing his doubt of being able to do what the C showed him.

I wanted so badly to say, 'well, if you'd get into IC yourself and work on some of your own issues of control, self-esteem, & anger, maybe it would be easier to be compassionate'.

I agree with this statement completely. My anger clouded my judgement and prevented me from seeing that I was playing a huge role in destroying my M. I belived it was all my W fault for not making me happy and she was to blame for my anger and our M problems.

There is not much you can do here. Not saying what was on your mind and validating his feeling of hopelessness was the right thing to do. Unfortunately all of his low self-esteem, depression and lack of compassion are a cause of his anger. It blocks everything out and prevents you from seeing past your own hurt. Once I learned to control it a whole bunch of possibilities opened up to me. I was able to work on other areas of my life not just my M.

We have discuessed this before. I do not know how to help you open his eyes. You would think leaving him would have done it or going to MC would help but he still seems to be in denial. I would just keep going to MC and your IC and working on the deficiencies in your communication with him. Eventually he may come around, hopefully before he really is hopeless.

Did the book help you out at all, did you like it?

Take care and have a great time in DC. I will be there this weekend also visting my brother and tubing down the Potomac.

Tim

[Bridgestone]

He sees you frustrated, he's let you down already.

I'm not frustrated with him, but with the communication guidelines given by the counselor & the program we are working with, that suggests 'why' questions do just what you say.. threatens, asks for defensive posturing & answers, etc.

I need to learn to say something like... "mmm.. I'm a bit confused, can you explain that more?" or "How did you feel/think that?"

What, where, when, how, who questions are good questions that are to be used carefully once the 'talker' is finished with his/her talking & the listener has summarized it correctly. Then if there is still confusion, you can ask, but not 'why'.

Instead of asking, Why did you do ________? Try - When you do _______ it makes me feel _________.
Does that make sense?

Yeah.. it does it's almost word for word what I have been practicing, except saying 'it MAKES me feel____" is also off limits. No one makes you feel anything. There actions can affect your emotions, but it is your choice to 'feel'.

I have been practicing: I feel ______ when you do ______. I need _________. And then stopping and giving him a chance to respond.

However, that doesn't get my questions answered for 'why' he feels as he does .. as he is not consistant with the above statement. So my 'why' questions usually have been a way to 'figure him out' so I knew what to do or not to do in the future to avoid setting off his temper.

That is what is making me very anxious.. how will I know???

I'm feeling very out of sorts with this new tactic, but am hopeful that with practice it will make a difference & reduce my anxiety.

Thanks for the suggestions!
Peace

[Bridgestone]

Hi Tim,
Yes the book helped me see things through his eyes very well. It gave me some ideas for me (similar to what the communication C has done for me as well).

I have thought about giving it to H to read, but think it would be too pushy & too finger pointing. I just wish he would get into IC ... I keep mentioning my own in passing. He was VERY anti-IC when I first started going last year. Then he was all for it, once he started going, then he backed off when he was referred to an anger management specialist .. he only went 3 times. (sigh) I can not control his actions.

I hope you have a good time on the Potomac.. I usually like those types of vacations.. rivers, mountains, camping, but the kiddos need to see our nations capitol and all it has to offer... so off we go!

Peace
Bridge

[Purple]

So my 'why' questions usually have been a way to 'figure him out' so I knew what to do or not to do in the future to avoid setting off his temper.

That is what is making me very anxious.. how will I know???

Hi Bridge, this jumped out at me. When I said to my counsellor that I didn't want h to be upset or angry, my C said something along the lines of..., 'so what if h gets mad? Why should you [suffocate] or [lose who you are] in order to avoid making h angry? If he gets angry, that's HIS issue. YOUR issue is that you focus so much on him that you lose yourself'.

Therefore, what I think of when I read your bit that I quoted above was....why should Bridge check and change what she says/does if it is done to solely avoid making her h angry. Too bad if he gets angry. As long as you are being sensible and healthy and true to yourself - if he gets angry, then he is not accepting you and your actions.

not sure if I've made sense. Counselling was really heavy yesterday. i just want to go home and curl up in bed and sleep.

[Coach]

I have been practicing: I feel ______ when you do ______. I need _________. And then stopping and giving him a chance to respond.

However, that doesn't get my questions answered for 'why' he feels as he does .. as he is not consistant with the above statement. So my 'why' questions usually have been a way to 'figure him out' so I knew what to do or not to do in the future to avoid setting off his temper

Fill in the blanks: I feel loved when you do ______________.
I need ____________________.
I feel ______________ when you get angry. I need ______________.
I feel ______________ when you don't open up to me. I need _________.

I think that is a great communication tool. Tell him how you need to be loved, appreciated and cherished. If you notice most of us DAM are looking for things to do. Make your needs actions he wants to do. I would love for my W to tell me what she needs from me and how she would like it and then let me do it.

[poet]

Hello Bridge,
You don't know me, but I recently read in one of your threads that you go/have gone to communications counseling with/without your H. Can you please go to my thread and tell me a little more about that. I believe I have a very bad communications problem with my H. I would appreciate all the help I can get.

Poet
p.s. I hope I'm not asking too much. If you don't have time, that's ok. BTW, is this called hijacking? I have heard the term, but now I'm starting to wonder?

[Bridgestone]

Hi Coach.. thanks for the suggestions.. I'll write those down too. I struggle with what to tell him I need.

I have not been able to depend on him for so long that trusting him to meet my needs, when they are stated out loud, is taking time for me and dependability for him.

Thanks again for your words of encouragement!
Peace
Bridge

[Bridgestone]

hi Poet.
I am off for the next few days for a vacation.
I'll check in with more when I get back.

Here's a website to help you understand what we are doing.

http://www.couplecommunication.com/

Good luck!
Bridge

[smartcookie]

Enjoy your vacation sweetie. You deserve it.

Hugs

[Purple]

R u back yet Bridge? How did it go?

[smartcookie]

I'm wondering too, if you're back yet ? Did you have a blast ? Hope so, & miss you. Oh, & a word of the day.... tee hee

serocystadenocarcinoma

[Purple]

Something to do with a cyst on the skin somewhere? Am I close?

[smartcookie]

Pretty close. It breaks down to;

sero (serous, or fluid)
cyst (abnormal closed cavity containing liquid or semi-solid)
adeno (combining form denoting relationship to a gland)
carcinoma (malignant new growth made of epithelial cells tending to infiltrate the surrounding tissue & give rise to metastases).

Hi Bridge *waves* Miss you !

[Bridgestone]

Hi all,
Have been back since Friday. Just has been hectic getting caught back up with getting D ready for school (starting Thursday) and S ready (??) for college leaving next Wednesday. I start back to teacher workshop the same day (dang.. hate to miss those workshops!)

Vacation was OK in terms of interactions. It was polite & cordial, probably more so than 'normal'.

But the tension of lies that H told in counseling (over stupid chit) on Saturday morning, and 'refraining' from causing drama on vacation.. made it bubble up Saturday night and we had major drama.

The communications counseling is helping some parts.. with some effort.. both parties can be heard on non-volitile issues. It still seems forced, contrived, and almost juvenille.

The dilemma becomes being heard on touchy subjects... with major effort & much time (for calling time outs, refocusing, etc) both of us can be heard. And then we still have not learned the tools for coming to resolution on those topics. That is this weeks lesson.

(sigh) such a long process.

Thanks for checking in with me purple & SC.

[Distressed67]

Bridge,

How was the vacation outside of the drama with your H. Did the kids have a good time? Did you get to take a tour of the city on a double decker bus or o to the White house? Did you have fun in the museums?

The tenson and forced communications are going to be there for awhile till you both get comfortable with the new way of interacting. Take it slow and be patient I know it is a lot of work and effort but if you can get thru this and rebuild you M it will all be worth it.

Take care.

Tim

[Bridgestone]

Hi Tim
Vacation in & of itself was good! Weather was amazing.. sunny, nice breeze, hardly any humidity & it only rained just as we were getting in the cab to leave for the airport to come home.

No White house tour, did the trolley tour (green & orange one) not the double decker bus,

bureau of engraving & printing,the national cathedral, library of congress, supreme court, air & space museum, national sculpture garden, the smithsonian castle, natural history museum, national portrait gallery, the lincoln, jefferson, washington, FDR, vietnam, korean, & WW2 memorials, the archives, union station, oldest pub in DC, the JFK center for supper & a play, the Dark Knight on iMax (OMG!!),

kids had a great time (sore feet & all) ate great food, friendly people when we needed help...


how was your tubing??
Bridge

[Distressed67]

Wow, you packed alot into your trip to DC. I guess since I live so close and have been there many times I do a little bit each time I go. I am glad the vacation was fun despite the tension.

Tubing was alot of fun. I hurt ny knee on a rock but besides that how can you go wrong with a day of just relaxing and drinking. I like hanging with my B and he know what is going on with my R but does not ask unless I bring it up so that works out great.

Have fun at your teaches workshop, sound like so much fun.

[Bridgestone]

oh yeah.. and the national geographic museum, DuPoint circle shopping, crime & punishment museum, and the Spy museum. The last two were amazing! Highly recommend them!!

Left a few things off the list for the kids to come back & do on their own some time. Arlington, JFK tomb, Tomb of the Unknown solider, American History Smithsonian, Willamsburg, VA

Yes we did a lot, probaby why we had sore feet!! & were crashed out by 9:30 pm every night!
Bridge

[lodo]

Hey Bridge,

Guess I'm DAM - I don't get how things went with H. Or how you're feeling about it.

lodo

[Bridgestone]

Hi Lodo,

Things went ok.. there were some tense moments, but all in all, it was ok. We both kept things polite & as upbeat as we could. Most of the time one or both of us were in that mode.

When there were times where 'drama' would have occured in the past, one of us or both, effectively walked away from it.


My first night back home, with just me & the kids, I remember taking a really 'deep breath'. I felt as if I had been holding my breath most of the time, but didn't realize I was until then.

I hadn't realized how much I have gotten use to having my 'alone time' and not having to answer to anyone about my actions/decisions. By the time vacation was over, it was starting to feel like 'walking on eggshells' again, not bad, just antsy.

The drama that occurred on Saturday was from some bad talks that arose from counseling on unrelated issues, but for me I think some of the stress from 'holding my breath' on vacation came out during that fight.

How do I feel about it? It reinforced for me how uncomfortable I still am around H for long periods of time. I enjoy his company for a while, but the 'comfortable stretches of time' we used to enjoy with each other seem to have evaporated.

We went out to a wine bar one night at DuPont Circle, which was fun, but just not the same.

I love to people watch and H has always loved the stories I spin about the people I see. It just didn't seem to have the vivaciousness that is has in the past. It felt forced to some extent, like we were both acting out roles in a play.

To use Kalni's puzzle analogy... the 2 pieces sort of fit, but when you really stepped back to look, the colors where the two pieces touched, were not matching.

Counseling again tomorrow.

I started back to some department meetings today for part of the day.. that was stressful. Not sure I'm ready to start this school year.

S18 leaves for college a week from tomorrow. A week from tonight will be his last night in my house (or maybe his Dad's) until Thanksgiving. He is out again tonight for what is probably the last of many 'good-bye' parties he & his friends have been having for the past 3 weeks.

sigh... and life goes on.

Peace
Bridge

[Distressed67]

Bridge,

You did very well on the vaction with your kids and H. You both were able to see the drama coming and most of the time walk away from it. I'm betting in the past a full blown fight would have erupted. So take that as a positive.

Being apart for as long as you both have been it is going to seem stange and awkward to be together so much. You are going to go through times that it is uncomfortable and forced. Maybe instead of trying to do things that you use to do together you need to find new and different things.

You both have changed and your R has change and will need to keep changing. You don't want the old R anyways so trying to do the same stuff is only going to bring back the old R. You both need to do different things I am sure that you have new interest and hopefully he does to, explore them and see where that gets you.

Take care and try not to dwell on your S leaving and school starting too much.

Tim

[Bridgestone]

Bridge,

You did very well on the vaction with your kids and H. You both were able to see the drama coming and most of the time walk away from it. I'm betting in the past a full blown fight would have erupted. So take that as a positive.

Thanks D67, I have been trying to spin it positive. The sad part is, some of it felt like it did to me the few months before I dropped the bomb. Walking on eggshells with a wall around my feelings & thoughts, just trying to keep the peace for the sake of the 'family'. Did NOT like that feeling. It hurt me. I need to find a way to reframe that.

Maybe instead of trying to do things that you use to do together you need to find new and different things.
I am sure that you have new interest and hopefully he does to, explore them and see where that gets you.

No he does not actually. The only other interest I can see that he has started doing is spending time working on the homework for communications counseling we are doing together.

He still has no hobbies or outside interests or friends that he spends time with. One of my complaints from the 'old R'. I reiterated this to him in Counseling over a month ago, he expressed some interest in kite flying.

I sent him some website & have tried to start conversations about it (as I went and did some research to have something 'new' to talk about) & now I think I know more than he does. And this is during his 'slow' time at work when he would have the time to explore a new hobby.

Take care and try not to dwell on your S leaving and school starting too much.

Thanks.... I'm trying.

[goldeylox]

Bridge, S18 leaving Friday. Driving me crazy. Help! Peace.

[Distressed67]

If anybody on this board needs a smack upside their head with a 2x4 its your H. Is he in the running for president of the DAM's club of America. DC was his chance to shine, prove to you that he is the man of your dreams and show you a rocking good time and he blows it. He lets you guys fall right back into the same routine that made you move out in the first place. UUGGGHHHH!

Have you ever thought about having him read DB or DR it seems these books are more for him than you. I would normaly say not to but he needs to GAL, kite flying, come on with all the great sports and hobbies out there he suggests kite flying. And then you do more research on the subject than him. Pathetic.

I don't know what to tell you to do. I wish I could talk to him and tell him what an idiot he is being. He needs to be posting here more than you. Not that I want you to leave just that I could help him alot more than you because I don't know how to get through to him. You keep extending the olive branch and he uses it for fire wood. I truely hope he wakes up soon either in MC or CC. Your a hell of a woman Bridge to be putting this much effort into it, I hope you get what you want out of all of this.

Take care,

Tim

[Forrest Gump]

If anybody on this board needs a smack upside their head with a 2x4 its your H.

I am not sure I agree.

Is he in the running for president of the DAM's club of America. DC was his chance to shine, prove to you that he is the man of your dreams and show you a rocking good time and he blows it. He lets you guys fall right back into the same routine that made you move out in the first place. UUGGGHHHH!

I hadn't realized how much I have gotten use to having my 'alone time' and not having to answer to anyone.

I'm Sorry... who is supposed to shine? Last I checked.. it was the person posting here!! If.. for some reason.. you find yourself posting here.. you better learn how to shine.

I give you props.. for trying to find the answer.

Have you ever thought about having him read DB or DR it seems these books are more for him than you. I would normaly say not to but he needs to GAL, kite flying, come on with all the great sports and hobbies out there he suggests kite flying. And then you do more research on the subject than him. Pathetic.

I have a collection of kites.. people are amazed at what I can do with them. I have had 100's of people watching me fly my tiny little kite.. the only reason I know.. people were watching.. is because my wife told me.

You keep extending the olive branch and he uses it for fire wood.

One of the big things.. I have wanted to say is.. I see the effort on your part.. but I see his lack of.. "Heart". A DAM needs to have some Heart. It will disappear.. when he feels attacked.. or has lost interest.

Your a hell of a woman Bridge to be putting this much effort into it, I hope you get what you want out of all of this.

A big part of me.. thinks you stand out too much. He does not like your C.. that I am.. 99% sure of. He likes.. that you stand out.. he just wants you to tone it back some. Call it a "little bit."

I.. may have missed.. you bending.. and Doing Work. If I did.. can you point it out?

Distressed67.. I am not attacking you. I liked your post. Most of this is directed at Bridgestone.

I am so going to hel*!!

[Coach]

[quote] [Bridge, S18 leaving Friday. Driving me crazy. Help! Peace. /quote]

What you don't realize about your sons is that this is a scary deal for them as well. Moving out of their childhood home, no more homecooked meals, the dog isn't there, academic challenges, etc. They are just trying to look cool in front of you. Big step from being a boy to a young man. It will be OK.

[Bridgestone]

If anybody on this board needs a smack upside their head with a 2x4 its your H.

I am not sure I agree.

I agree with Forrest.. at least he is willing to try things. I may not like how his actions & words still affect me or the R, but he is at least trying. And most of the verbal and all of the physical abuse has stopped.

Is he in the running for president of the DAM's club of America.

Nah... Forrest has assured me he has this wrapped up!

DC was his chance to shine, prove to you that he is the man of your dreams and show you a rocking good time and he blows it.

No DC was about helping realize our son's dream vacation. We didn't get here over night.. going to DC for 4 days was not going to 'rock my world'. Did we have some laughs.. yes.. did we have some fun memories, yes. Was there tension.. yes. Did we each visibly bite our tongues at various points, yes. Did we each look at the other at various points with heartfelt gratitude.. yes.

He will show me how he shines when he makes the hard choices on a daily basis, not when we're on vacation.

He lets you guys fall right back into the same routine that made you move out in the first place.

no that was my choice to feel that way given the situation. I need to reframe my feelings & ask for what I need when that happens. I chose to bite my tongue because I was not sure we could deal with drama on vacation & I didn't want to find out.

I hadn't realized how much I have gotten use to having my 'alone time' and not having to answer to anyone.

Yep.. hard to admit.. but right now it is the truth. I like the independence that the last year has given me. going back in an R, will mean renegotiating what that looks like. Being in close contact for 5 days & 4 nights in DC made this hit home.

I'm Sorry... who is supposed to shine? Last I checked.. it was the person posting here!! If.. for some reason.. you find yourself posting here.. you better learn how to shine.

I give you props.. for trying to find the answer.

And slowly & steadily I'm trying to shine & to answer. Some days & questions are easier than others...Thanks for the help

One of the big things.. I have wanted to say is.. I see the effort on your part.. but I see his lack of.. "Heart". A DAM needs to have some Heart. It will disappear.. when he feels attacked.. or has lost interest.

I know he feels 'attacked' by my telling him what I need (he asks!) and his somewhat improved self-awareness recognizing how little he has done that in the past.

He does however, engage in self-deprication.. even worse than I could do to him if I tried. He is like Dr. Jeckyl/Mr. Hyde. one minute the abuse is directed at me, the next at himself.

I have said "I feel.... & I need..." lots of times this past 2.5 weeks and then I have thanked, appreciated, touched, ooo'ed, ahh'ed over the slightest improvement. Those are my efforts that are true to me to this point.

I.. may have missed.. you bending.. and Doing Work. If I did.. can you point it out?

See above... what else would you recommend? I'm open to ideas.

A big part of me.. thinks you stand out too much.

Huh?? I've never been accused of that..

He does not like your C.. that I am.. 99% sure of.

I asked again today on the way up, if this guy was someone he would be comfortable moving forward with once the communciation stuff was done, he hedged.

He likes.. that you stand out.. he just wants you to tone it back some. Call it a "little bit.

Still not sure what this means.. if I stand out (which I'm struggling to understand) how can I be 'less of me'? I felt like I was disappearing the way it was in the old R.

Most of this is directed at Bridgestone.
I am so going to hel*!!

Ahh.. Forrest.. it would take so much more, given what I have taken in my R up to this point to make me feel bad..geez.. you'd think you expected me to run screaming from the boards..." I hate you, I hate you! Forrest"

Thanks for the feedback & encouragement & props for pondering, both of you. Much apprecaited.

Peace
Bridge

[lodo]

No DC was about helping realize our son's dream vacation.

Ahh, youth. How much longer before he realizes it's the Bahamas, not DC?

As far as standing out, I agree with FG. You outshine him to the point he can't see or feel himself anymore. He doesn't feel appreciated for who he is.

lodo

[smartcookie]

Hey Bridge, so Jeff gets the ladies, & you get the guys huh ?

Nice to have you back. I missed you !!!

Hugs

[Distressed67]

Sorry Bridge did not mean to get down on your H. I misunderstood how the vacation went. And I know the both of you cannot fix everything in one week but what I meant was he had a huge oportunity to put his best foot forward and I tought from what you posted that it was the same old, same old thats all.



FG

I apologize for the kite flying comment. I don't know anything about it and should not have made the comment.

[Bridgestone]

Tim,
No need to apologize.. you put to words somethings I know I have thought & felt over the months!! Just not in that specific situation. I guess I had no exepectation of either of his feet being put forward at all, just not using them to kick

Which he did not and that is a good thing. Trust is rebuilt in little ways. The same old, same old probably was more about my feelings of the situation and I know I need to reframe that. After dealing with my sadness about my S18 leaving for college in Counseling next week, that will need to be the topic I think.

Please don't feel badly about your post, I feel your support & concern & appreciate it & your words very much!!

thanks & peace
Bridge

[Bridgestone]

Hey Bridge, so Jeff gets the ladies, & you get the guys huh ?

Nice to have you back. I missed you !!!

Hugs

Hi SC
Thanks for stopping by.. I can't keep up with where you post!!
It's easier to find you other places

I get the guys? that's an interesting thought...
I'm just glad for the feedback & support, no matter the gender.

Having a few different DAM perspectives is nice though.
Not to dis the WAW & AWAW support.. their BTDT means a lot too.

I'm grateful to all.
hugs to you!
Bridge

[Bridgestone]

Hi all,
I have started a new thread and requested that this one be locked.

You can find me here now.

Peace
Bridge