Well, another thread locked.
First Thread. Second Thread. Last Thread And here are some lyrics to the new thread title:
Used To The Pain
Keith Urban
And so I wrote this song for you
I think I know just what you're going through
Did you believe you'd never change
Nothing ever stays the same
I know it's hard holding on
Even harder trying to let it go
And so you're frozen like a stone
But you are not alone
Every step I take
I get a little less afraid
Of giving into love
Love, let it out
Believe me when I say
It gets better every day
Once you get used to the pain
What you hide inside I see
There's a scar that's always gonna be
There's a past in everyone
You can't undo, you can't outrun
Every step I take
I get a little less afraid
Of giving into love
Love, let it out
Believe me when I say
It gets better every day
Once you get used to the pain
Every step I take
I get a little less afraid
Of giving into love
Love, let it out
Believe me when I say
It gets better every day
Once you get used to the pain
Once you get used to the pain
Just a quick note.
I have the boys for an extended weekend. Today, Sunday, is oldest's birthday -- S6 becomes S7 -- hurray!
Got to go. More later.
nocodes,
just wanted to check in and say happy new year.. I hope this one is better for you.
tal
Yay for more kiddo time! Enjoy and hurry back to us.
Happy New Year to you too, Tal, and everyone else here.
Kiddo time has been great -- and it isn't over yet!
W took the boys to see her aunt and uncle overnight on Thursday. They got back very late Friday evening, so she dropped them off here at the apartment directly. S7 told me all about the birthday party they had for him Thursday night, showed me all the gifts he got. S7's actual birthday was today, and W has been putting on her "boo-hoo" tone about having to work the entire extended holiday weekend, including on our eldest's birthday -- she pouts that she won't get to spend time with "her baby" on his birthday. I commiserate openly with W a little, but at the same time I am thinking, "Well, that's tough. You made this bed, so..."
S7 is a Lego fanatic -- so that's mostly what he's been getting for Christmas and birthdays. Lego just introduced their Indiana Jones line right before Christmas, and Santa brought S7 a nice set. For his birthday, I got S7 another set in this series. I also got myself the boxed DVD collection for the Indiana Jones movies -- I figured it was high time I intro my S's to some of the best action-adventure out there, especially with their new Lego sets. We watched Raiders last night and the boys were crazy for it. Every chance they get now they play with the new I-J toys.
I called and left a voicemail message to W early this morning to thank her for bearing our son(s) and giving us two such wonderful boys, way back when. I left the message at the precise time in the morning that S7 had been born.
W later called back and thanked me for such a sweet, thoughtful message. The rest of today whenever we've talked with each other, we have been extra nice, cordial and understanding with each other.
We saw the Water Horse today at the theatre this evening. The boys seemed to really enjoy it.
On a less than positive note, S7 was given a new stuffed bear toy and I noted it was included in his belongings I brought back to the apartment on Friday. The toy came with a children's story book. Well, the bear happens to have the same name as W's OM. I gingerly asked S7 about whose idea it was. It was W's.
I have two problems with this:
(1) After chastising me for being somewhat susceptible to impulse buys, it appears that W plans to live by a double-standard.
(2) Buying S7 a toy bear named after OM is crossing a line
Hey Blue,
Up until the part about the bear I was thinking what a good interchange you and your wife have been having. I wouldn't worry too much about her naming the bear. Your son is not likely to attach to a stuffed animal that she told him the name of. It will fall to the wayside. Bears are only good if you get to name them yourself. Every kid knows that.
My D3 named her Webkinz OW's D's name. I hear ya, mister. I feel ya.
Like Sara, I was all pumped up about the good exchange too. But...the good exchange still happened, so that is a good thing. I think that you put the message to your W about your sons and her being a mother was great. That made you out (as it should because you are!) as very thoughtful and considerate. Not someone that should make your wife nervous and anxious...
Happy New Year!
Happy New Year to everyone.
This is a very confusing end to a sad year.
Late this afternoon I was about to head out with our 2 S's to find something to eat and let the boys stretch their legs one last time before settling down this evening, when W called. W asked what we were planning for the rest of the day and inquired whether we'd be available for a brief visit. She then offered to bring supper, picking up some fast food for all of us along the way. At first W was deciding that since we were planning on going back out that she wouldn't come in that case, but I told her S3 had continually asked about her more and more as his time away from her increased. So we agreed it would be good for our S's.
W arrived and the boys were indeed happy to see her. We all ate and talked. W said her work schedule was so full that she needed to "ask" (read: tell) me if I would keep our S's one more evening -- which was not the original plan. But then W did warn me earlier that she had no idea how her work schedule would go for this 4-day holiday weekend. I have made it a habit of mine to always be ready to take my S's, even if it means altering my own plans. So I agreed -- with a twinge of reservation... and suspicion.
W left afterwards saying she had to visit the office for paperwork on some patients she is to visit early tomorrow.
Since she left it has been playing on my mind. I have resisted temptations to drive over to her office to see if she really went there -- I know that OM's apartment is on that side of town as well. If W is really still seeing OM, I cannot imagine her wanting to be away from her "soul-mate" on the one night she'd want to be kissed.
The boys stayed up with me until midnight -- they held up pretty well and then it was time for bed, at last. But both of them each stated they wanted their mommy. S3 wanted to go back down to the house to "sleep with Mommy"; S7 wanted his mother to be there so he could hug her goodnight and bring in the new year. They both then said they wanted to sleep back at the house tonight.
I was really tempted to take them up on their requests. But I knew that my ulterior motive was to check up on W, to see if she was really at home this late at night -- or celebrating with OM on New Year's, instead of what she said she was going to do.
I've called the house number several times -- no answer, just the answering machine. The boys seemed shattered at not being able to wish her a Happy New Year having managed to stay awake to do so.
I put the boys to bed, and I redialed several times for over an hour now. She's not there; she can't possibly be. She's not supposed to be on call either, by her own words.
But I know the answer, and yet part of me wants to know, to have irrefutable proof -- because, God knows, she's gonna' see that I have called and come up with all manner of excuses for why she wouldn't pick up the phone.
Heaven forbid something would be happening to one o the children while no one could reach her. Some mother.
I know I am supposed to detach -- but right now I can't help but obsess over this. I feel like I have to know, to be sure. She is the queen of denial though (just like her mother), there is nothing I can say to get her to acknowledge the truth of her actions. But the other part of me is cooler, and realizing I finally got two little boys off to sleep one more night here, when they were missing their mamma, I don't want to drag them out of their beds -- that would not be the nice, fatherly thing to do.
If I don't get my proof positive tonight, there may be other chances. And I keep thinking that calling the OM's W might be in order, although that can be a potential powder keg itself.
What to do? What to do? I don't think I can sleep.
No Code... I feel the same as you, except I know for sure she is with OM.
Hang in there, Im with you!
Well, H4C,... now so do I. It is settled.
I have had enough of these persistent doubts, and I have had enough of her "acts".
So, I did the anti-DB, not-so-fatherly thing and saddled my two sleepy little boys up in my car (warmed it up inside nice and toasty first -- it's turned cold out there this early AM) and drove the six miles to the house.
Nobody was home: W was not there, and doesn't look like she was ever there all evening.
I have my answer now -- I don't need to drag my sons any further, like to the other side of the metro area to see if W's mini-van is parked outside OM's apartment. Nope, the fact that she was making like she had to get her paperwork and get home so she could get up oh-so-very-early this AM to see a patient -- and would be busy all day long too -- was just a pretense for taking our S's off her hands one more night, to do something without our knowing.
I have said nothing in front of our S's, I was almost totally silent driving back, but I know S7 will ask what this was all about later, when he's actually awake. He's going to want to know why his mother was not at the house when we paid our visit. I don't know what I can say to him. It breaks my heart for him, and for his little brother.
This also confirms the reasons behind the crazy crap she's dumped on me of late. I wondered if she was "saving herself" for the OM, and that was what was making her so irritable. But then, knowing her MO, I doubted she could hold herself back for very long -- she doesn't have the will power. At the least, I am pretty sure she has no longer held herself back tonight.
Oddly, I am both tired and charged up at the same time. I am calmer, oddly, now knowing for certain what I have suspected.
W has been so good at downplaying what is going on in her personal life of late (other than saying she now works too much to do anything for herself -- which I know to be B.S.) Part of me had hoped she was over her R with OM since she has the cell phone back she gave him. But I also know her self-esteem would be at stake in not having some man's attentions for very long -- so she could be on to OM #2 for all I know -- it doesn't matter. The fact is she's lying and trying to cover up for being out into the wee hours of the morning yet again.
I have a mind to tell her that if our S's are cramping her style, I'll be glad to take them off her hands permanently. But I do know how my two little boys love their mother so much, and they will love her no matter what. I could never deprive them of their mother, no matter how much she hurts me. They're too young to really see the harm she's doing to them or to all of us, and that is just as well -- I want to protect them from this hurt as much as I humanly can.
Why can't she see any of this?
I am so done. It's going to be all so very much easier to detach now. She denies and lies all too pathologically to be trusted. It's so pathetic and ugly, so sad and sick.
I have to bury her in my mind now -- think of my W as having died and I am now a widower. I just have to deal with this dark phantom now that has taken on her appearance now, but it is just a harmless ghost. I can continue to pray for the soul of my dearly departed spouse, and ask God to some day help her spirit out of this purgatory she has chosen.
No Code, Im so sorry. I know how you feel though, I like your idea to view W as having passed away, that might help with the detaching.
You have zero control over what she chooses to do, so let her go. Maybe one day she'll realize what she has done and try and make it right, until then let go. Move on and focus on your sons.
I know somethings gotta give for both of us, either we bring our families back together or we move on and eventually meet the women we deserve to be with. Theres so many women out there that would love to be with men like us.
SO many guys out there are adulterers/womanizers, not us No Code, we're true men with big hearts, one day we'll be rewarded.
Im here for you brother!
Oh NoCode, I am so sorry for your long night. You had to do it, don't beat yourself up. Your S's and you deserve so much more than a woman that will lie to get HER needs met. They (WAS) have these egos on them that have to be fed, its an urgent need I believe, and she did just that.
You are seeing clearly through all this pain. Saying "I'll be happy to take the sons permanently." is not a good idea. However, your actions already say that, you will take them, soak up any time you can get with them. It just has to be with no questions asked. I am sure she will try to excuse herself out of this predicament, and I would just let her lie, and then let it lie. No use fighting a phantom.
In all honestly, this summer, when the pain was so very raw, I actually thought it would be better if H *did* die. I know now (from reading and talking with others) that is a normal reaction for us.
Sometimes I wish H would just leave all of us. Me and the girls. The pain of him walking out, free and clear, would be easier to take than what I have been doing. But, like you, I realize my girls love and very much need their Daddy. I am going to try with all my strength to see past the pain he causes me, and do what's right for the girls. So very hard to rise above.
I hope you are ok tired. I all too well understand the tired yet charged feeling. When you come down from that, take some time and relax.
Take care!
H4C, thanks. I really appreciate your support. And I am so happy that things are actually sounding so positive in your own sitch. Hang in there, bro', and keep that saintly patience going; it seems to be working for you. Like everyone says, "Trust but verify."
Lwb, thanks. I am tired. Have had very little sleep. I am just numb right now, letting the events sink in.
Yes, I know now the root flaw at the core of my WAS' soul. I can see it so readily now, whereas love blinded me for the last 17 years. I recall now that I could see it prior to the moment I realized I was in love with W long ago. I can see how I slowly convinced myself that W had overcome that flaw, not recognizing that it had merely lain dormant, and had never been resolved. Her self-esteem, her insecurities are so inextricably tied to this arrogance and pride she now displays. Her haughty arrogance she wears like an armor but it is to protect a very delicate ego. Any wound to her pride, however slight, sets off her most base self, defending her fragile self-esteem.
She has done great harm to me, our M and our family, in putting her pride ahead of everyone and everything else. And yet i still do love her. I just realize though that as long as she is going to take this selfish path of hers, I will not waste my efforts on trying to save this M.
I did not confront W at all today about her deceit and treachery, the events from last night. I just couldn't convince myself there was any point in raising the issue with her. Besides we each received some very bad news today.
W's uncle (married to MIL's sister) passed away this morning. They live just a couple of hours drive east of here.
And my mother told me my uncle, her oldest living brother, he lives in another state, was also very close to death himself, and would not make it past today.
I mention this because these sad events have been playing on our minds today. When I spoke with W briefly today, she noted I sounded a little down, and asked what was the matter. I told her that there's been a lot of bad news today (I was also implying that W's lies and infidelity were part of these bad tidings, but W did not take the bait.)
W's attitude was odd around me though when it came to discussions of her uncle's passing. She seemed so nonchalant about it, almost flippantly cold. I wasn't sure she was putting on a brave face or not. I really liked her uncle, and I regret that I never got to see him again after the bomb -- such that his passing has made me sad as well. I just haven't been able to figure out why W had shown such a lack of compassion hersef. I wanted to hug her and comfort her, but she was being just as aloof as ever -- I guess she's trying very hard to keep me beyond arm's length.
I know, pursuing her would be bad. And I really don't know that I would actually want to catch her at this point.
<rant>
I am a little disturbed right now. W had apparently come over to my apartment at lunch time to look for the d*mned teddy bear named after her OM. So I forgot to pack it up and bring it back with me when I dropped our S's off last evening -- sue me!
I am so peeved that she thinks it's so friggin' important to retrieve that stuffed toy -- they each have plenty of other such comforts, each with a lot more sentimentality than this new, hideous thing she bought for S7 on impulse last week -- that she has to drive up six miles one way to invade my apartment. Really, it's not even what I would call a very adorable bear at all -- the key thing for W is that it's named after OM. So this thing obviously means more to her than S7.
I have not said anything yet to her about this, but I am steamed. I discovered it when I came back at lunch and saw that, apparently, they (W and S3) also left my Christmas tree lights on before they left. (Reminds me that its way past time to take it down. Only left it up for our S's.) And the boys' bedroom was somewhat ransacked to a point too. I checked my voicemail, and W had left a message saying she was going to retrieve the item from my apartment "if I don't mind." But she didn't wait for me to say yay or nay, I noticed.
Am I over-reacting?
no your not overreacting.. At this point she has really no business coming to your apartment and going through things, its really invasion of your privacy.. you know darn well if you did that to her she would have a heart attack.
I would calmly say to her "please do not go into my home without me being there" and leave it at that.
I know your upset and "done" with her, I can tell by your post. Maybe this is the push you needed to go dark and to remain detached from her. Im sorry your in that place now.
The kids will be upset, this is a given, just show them as much love as possible and just let them know that they will always be loved. (I know you aready do that).
This age is so tender.. My boys are 2 and 5 and especially my 5 year old, everything effects him (he's very sensative), he knows exactly was is going on when there trouble.
Hang in there... Thinking of you..
tal
Thanks, Tal,
It pains me what this does to the children in all our troubled families. It's just so terribly unfair to them.
just let them know that they will always be loved.
I can do no less. They're all that really matter to me now.
God bless you and yours.
Oh I would be peeved at your W if I were you. Even if it were an 'innocent' item, she has no business just letting you know she is going into YOUR residence. You would never do that. Heck, you had to leave the presents in the garage!!! Double gross to the whole bear thing!
I am sorry about W's uncles and yes, she is keeping you at arm's length, not showing emotion. Par for the course.
Seems you've hit a point where DB'ing will be for your health and your kids happiness. You've done what you can for now. Like Mark says, free her to be an idiot, you can do nothing else.
Sorry nocode, I truly am.
I am peeved at W, Lwb. But disappointed in her more-so.
I had another heated R talk with W this evening. It began when I mentioned the freakin' stuffed bear toy. When she mentioned coming over to my apartment she had made some excuse about also coming over to get a DVD for S3 ("ChittyChittyBangBang") and that's when I asked her did she find the bear -- only I didn't use that word, I called it by the OM's name.
W got all silent for a moment and then tried to lie to me that it was S7's idea to get the toy in the first place, and that she had tried to get him to choose one of the other stuffed animals available. I just said, "Uh-huh."
W continued to try to explain, and realized I wasn't buying it. She said, "... you don't believe me." Normally she would take whatever I reply to that question with and use it to act all hurt and say I was not capable of trust.
Instead, this time I replied a little differently, saying, "Should I?"
This threw her off momentarily, but she immediately began talking about our relationship at that point, saying, "All I needed from you was a little kindness and communication in our M."
I replied, "Me too."
She got hyper defensive from then on. The conversation launched off on it's mini roller-coaster ride, and then devolved from there. W was trying so very hard to turn the conversation into an argument, and trying to turn every point of contention as another justification for ending our M.
Only it didn't go exactly as she wanted this time. I think W's been under the impression for some time now that I will put up with all manner of cr*p from her just because I want to save our M. This time however I wasn't taking it, and I wasn't letting her put me on the defensive quite so easily. This confused her so much that at one point that she accused me of not talking "rationally". W is so emotionally-driven now of days, and to hear her try to argue something on the merits of it being rational or not was ludicrous.
W then tried to play her "trump card" on me -- complaints about my ability to properly father my 2 S's. I deflected those too.
In the end however I was still disappointed. I was disappointed in W for failing to ask about my own uncle, who passed away early this morning. I was disappointed in myself for having another R talk with W and for failing to remember to put my foot down with W regarding access to my private abode.
I was disappointed in W for failing to ask about my own uncle, who passed away early this morning.
I am so sorry.
Nocode, I totally agree. Just because we want our marriages to work, this does not make us punching bags, a depository for their spew, anger and guilt.
I used to react with hurt when H would be mean to me, now I walk away (and he knows why), or I demand respect. Its worked.
You threw her off. First you busted her on the bear thing, and then you refused to get sucked into the "R Talk Vacuum". Good job.
Hurt, disappointment, betrayal. Those emotions are closer to me than anger. I told H 2 weeks ago how he and his choices have greatly let me down and disappointed me.
You did great!
The boys and I watched a movie the other night, Meet the Robinsons. It had a motto in it that I recognized came from something Walt Disney himself used to say. It's a very positive slogan: "Keep Moving Forward."
I am going to adopt this as my motto for 2008: Keep Moving Forward.
While I whole-heartedly believe we must learn from our past to be able to avoid repeating problems in our future, we should not dwell in the past either. We must not allow ourselves to forget our path, which leads forwards.
Okay, so my M is over. My W is now the same personality as her mother, all venom and vinegar.
W's uncle was laid to rest this past weekend. MIL stayed with the aunt to help with grieving. I sent flowers to the aunt. W asked me (in an agitated, accusatory tone) why I had sent flowers addressed to her uncle's name. I said because the online florist had asked for the name of the "deceased", not the name of the surviving spouse. W made out to be a stupid act on my part.
W sent me an email this morning. She gave me an ultimatum -- either get my own Separation Agreement (SA) ready to give to her before the end of this month, or we will have to go with her version of the SA. (Yeah, sure, like that's ever going to happen.)
I got home this evening and found that MIL had returned from her trip, and had promptly wrote me a nasty email. It basically told me to not be sending gifts to her side of the family. She objected to the Christmas/Wedding gift I sent to my nephew and his new bride (some books of wisdom to help their fledgling marriage, such as Gary Chapman's The Five Love Languages). MIL said that they were not my blood family. Well, that's funny -- that nephew is no blood relation to MIL either!
MIL went further to accuse me of trying to upset her sister, W's aunt, by sending flowers addressed to the deceased uncle. Again they always assume the worst.
MIL accused me of falsely following God. Said that one does not have to go to church to find God -- and whole bunch of excuses for why I am supposedly not a real Christian even though the fruits of her life bear no indication that she is anything but secular in her beliefs. She preaches to me about how I am holier than thou. And then she said that I was not a good Christian if I was poisoning children's lives and minds with "adult" problems.
She then told me to open my eyes and see the truth, "Not YOUR truth but THE truth." Her "truth" is that M is meant to be a "communicating partnership", but if it stops being this and is detrimental to the children (implying that is what I am doing) it is best to separate "and save the children from the angry words. actions and hate."
I was flabbergasted to read this diatribe. The sheer acrimony and belligerence of her tone. I forwarded this email to W without comment, to see what W would say to her mother's vitriolic tirade.
Well, as you can guess, I got a response, and it was very short but even more heart-breakingly astonishing:
"Amen-so be it"
So, my W agrees with MIL on these insane, hostile views of me and my actions. I guess there can be no mistake in this -- in their minds, this is all-out warfare.
Un-freaking-believable! What hypocrisy! I can do nothing right. Nothing I say or do will W or her bitter relations see as anything but wrong. Well, that's their problem! I refuse to let their unending displeasure with me and their unyielding hatred of life deter me from doing what I feel is the right thing to do.
(And I will still pray for their meager little, petty souls. Maybe some miracle by some chance might rekindle the ashes of their hearts. But don't expect me to hold my breath.)
Oh yeah. I am sure any rational person would knowingly try to 'play a joke' on a widower. That is pathetic that they can't acknowledge your nice gesture, instead they twist it. I say 'they' because your W apparently agrees with MIL's crazy rants.
Well, that's their problem! I refuse to let their unending displeasure with me and their unyielding hatred of life deter me from doing what I feel is the right thing to do.
This is all you can do. Well, no. You could give up and walk around depressed and angry and heartless. But no, you are being a positive role model, letting things go, and praying for the very people hurting you the most. Your sons are so lucky to have you. Your W is a fool to let you go.
NoCode, I just don't know what to think. Have you or your atty drawn up any sort of SA that you would be agreeable with? Are you holding off for any reason? Oh and she can't force you to agree/sign anything, can she? What's with the threats? Have you given any thought to just letting her completely go? Coming up with an agreement, signing it and letting her go......
I say this, and I can't do it myself, of course...
Thanks for the D6 hugs by the way. I will pass them on to her when I get home....
Hey Blue,
Sorry they are so ugly to you. I was not aware that it was wrong to put the deceased's name on the card. Even if it is, it's the florist's mistake, and who cares? But in this case, we do know who cares. But you are right they are just bitter, ugly people.
Good football game though,eh?
NCB,
That is so ridiculous that the MIL reacted like that, but somehow I believe if you hadn't sent flowers then you would have been accused of being thoughtless. The way I see it in this situation is "You're damned if you do,and damned if you don't". So don't pay any heed to them, you know that you did the right thing. You were thoughtful and caring.
Dear Blue,
I'm so sorry to hear that your marriage has reached this crisis point. You are acting fantastically given you have spent 17 years with this woman. Your ability to look forward with a positive attitude is a tribute to you, and your sons will grow up with a great role model.
I hate to see WASs destroying so many lives. One can feel pity for their madness, but its hard to watch so many innocent lives being turned upside down.
Stay true to yourself, and don't let anger and revenge be your guides.
Good luck,
drz
Thanks, Lwb.
I have written up a first draft of an agreement. I am still scrutinizing it to the best of my lay abilities as I can. After all this hostility -- and the fact that I know that my W, despite her words about "mediation" and "saving our finances" is still actively seeking out a lawyer (a paralegal friend of mine let me know that W has already approached a couple of heavy-hitting "family" law practices in the last couple of weeks), I know I need to have my version of the SA reviewed by my own atty.
The way I see it is that my W expects me to lie down and take her abuse like a whipped dog, to accept her rebukes without question and to quietly acquiesce to her demands in the terms of the divorce. She refuses to acknowledge anything positive about me, certainly never in front of me, and refuses to show any respect for me at all, even in front of my S's.
Jesus said turn the other cheek. And I have. But it has done more harm than good. I am obligated, instead, for my own sake as well as that of my children and my spouse, to not give into her unreasonable, selfish demands. I am no longer playing the "nice guy" for her or giving her the benfit of a doubt. No, I have to show her enough love -- agape love -- that I let her go, if she so desires, but not on her terms. I will recover some dignity out of this and balance the scales more equitably.
I know it is time I let her go and that is the path I am now on. I am finding that it takes time to sever the ties ... and avoid hemorrhaging in the process.
Hello, Sara,
Thanks for your kindness and support. Oh, which ball game are you referring to?
Hello, Yoyo,
Yes, my thoughts as well, "damned if I do, damned if I don't."
I am so hurt by how negative they think of me and how maliciously they denigrate my actions, my words, my very existence -- and it confuses me why they feel this necessary; what have I done to deserve this degree of condemnation?
More so, it terrifies me how their attitude might be rubbing off on my S's. I really wish there was some way, at the very least, that my S's could be insulated from MIL's constant influence, if this is how she really is.
Thank you for being there. I am so grateful for you and everyone in these forums.
Drz,
Thanks for your kind words of support.
In this new journey I have been sent upon, I have had to acknowledge some anger issues that have been a key part of my contribution to the demise to my M. This anger is attributable to the severe depression that I have been contending with for many years now. But I am working on laying those aside. I know it is okay to get angry some times, but we are not to let our anger get the better of us. "Get angry and sin no more."
And revenge is not ours -- it is the Lord's. But still, as they say, the best "revenge" for us LBS's is one that is within God's plans anyway, and that is to lead a good life despite our WAS's ill wishes.
Oh, one more thing, Drz,
I see you fancying taking up writing. You seem to have the eloquence to turn a phrase, and I wish you well in your endeavor. I have been a (frustrated) writer in what little spare time I have had over many years. I write mostly speculative fiction, however, and I have a couple of novels I have been working on since before I got M. But I am not published yet -- my problem is that I tend to get overly immersed in the research and background materials behind my stories. One is a series of fantasy stories I have been working on for nearly 30 years -- and I still haven't sought publication. Maybe now that I am alone again...
I recently began a whole new story arc, one requiring a lot of new and different background research, and I am begrudging having to put it aside at times to have to work on my Separation Agreement (Aaaaargh! It kills me some times.)
I use a Macintosh at home for writing and last year I found the most fantastic piece of writing software ever, called "Scrivener". It is far more than a simple word processor; it helps you enter and organize your notes, and outlines, illustrations, etc.
Keep up the good work.
Called the florist today to lodge a complaint. Got Customer No-Service. They told me to call back tomorrow during more normal business hours on a toll number. Wonderful.
I decided I would call W's aunt to apologize to her for any misunderstanding about the flowers. She was actually pleasant and thanked me for them, and said not to worry about the florist's gaff. I apologized for the firestorm this created with W and MIL (the aunt's sister), she quickly said she didn't want to get into their words. I asked her if there was anything I could do, and told her I was sorry for her loss. She briefly touched on how hard it was for her but more-so for their cats. But she was focusing on the good things in her husband's life and that gives her comfort.
All in all it was a fairly nice conversation, although I knew she had to be uncomfortable talking to me given the battle lines that have been drawn. Still, I am not going to be deterred from doing the right thing, the Christian thing, the magnanimous thing, just because of how some people can only bear the fruits of bitterness and hatred, and seem like they can never get beyond that. Life is too short for such pettiness.
I have no expectations out of any one in that party beyond this. The W's war will undoubtedly continue, much to my chagrin.
Sorry about the NONservice. Isn't that the way a lot of times these days?
You did the right thing by calling and apologizing, very gracious of you. High road is hard, but its worth it...
Thanks, Lwb.
I wouldn't normally consider my path the "high" road in this, except by degrees. It's just that their path is so awfully low.
<journaling>
I went to my church last night for a scheduled meeting of the Habitats for Humanity team heading down to the Mississippi Gulf Coast for a mission in February. I was disappointed to learn that they canceled the trip due to lack of interest.
Oh, well. I am now looking into other Christian HFH-type missions to help with. I am thinking that getting my S7 involved in Cub Scouts might offer a few opportunities for community service as well.
S7 and I are already trying to participate together in the local Lego User Group. And I am still looking for a Martial Arts Dojo for us too. A new one just opened up right down the road.
Hmmm, maybe last night God was telling me I am starting to get myself spread too thin.
Just take care of yourself nocodes.. don't forget that.
Tal
Thanks, Tal, I will try.
How are you doing, BTW?
Im ok.. chugging along. Things are good, I probably should be
in piecing but don't want to leave my friends here
we have our moments.. like anybody else,I too get a little crazed sometimes and worry A bit, but I don't think that will ever go away....Too bad its like that now.. but I think we are on the upswing..
Just booked our Florida vacation to disney.. so hopefully we will have some good family time there.
keep the faith my friend.
tal
Upswing, yes, that must be good.
I need to check you thread out -- I don't get to "Piecing" often (my current course seems so far off from that route). I need to lurk a little more over in the other areas -- maybe "Divorced, But Not Done"?
Disney sounds great. I'd love to take my S's to DisneyWorld, maybe after we sell the house some time this year.
Best regards.
Last night I decided I had had enough with this hostility.
I picked up my S's last evening. W and I have both been standoffish with each other, saying very little.
On the drive back to my apartment, S7 started speaking spontaneously about his mother, speculating about her future plans, about "moving away" and, again, about having an older brother. I kept telling S7 that it was best we not discuss these things, but tried to get him to talk about something else. We kept coming back to his mother.
I managed to get my sons off to sleep and then re-read MIL's nasty-gram. I then decided I was going to call W. This was totally a backslide as far as DB'ing goes, as this was an R talk that I initiated.
I told W that I wanted to talk to her about this letter her mother sent, the sentiments to which she had concurred. I confirmed with W that this was indeed what her thoughts regarding me were. Again, she said she wasn't as strident about these enough to have worded it as vehemently as her mom, but she agreed with everything said.
I then told her I wanted to appeal with what is left of the woman I thought I married, and to tell her that the attitude that I am getting in this email is very disturbing, and it represents an environment to which my S's are being exposed that is not healthy for them or their R with their father.
W claimed, again, that she never says anything to our S's that would detract from me or my R with our S's.
I told her it was not what was said but the attitude that I was most concerned with. I told her "Actions speak louder than words, as you like to keep telling me." Besides, even if one could trust W to show some discretion, there was no way she could vouch for her mother. MIL's letter bespoke of a hostility towards me that is unfounded and not in her place to levy against me, not while she's living under my roof and not while she is being placed in a child-rearing role over our S's.
W denied any untoward behavior from her mother, that she was far better than daycare (I disagree) and that W has made it perfectly clear to her mother that there would never be anything said to our S's that would harm their relationship with their father.
W said that neither she nor MIL would ever expose S7 and S3 to "adult matters". She then tried to turn the argument back on me, with accusations that I was the one who was continuing to talk to S7 about "adult matters". I denied that -- family matters are not necessarily "adult matters", just because it might make W uncomfortable. I said that S7 was continuing to speak to me spontaneously about things that could only have come from her (or MIL), and the tip of the iceberg I see is alarming.
W continues to deny that she has any plans, that I am totally wrong, and that I cannot predict the future or how things will turn out. Every time she has said this, I know this to be mere supplication, an attempt to lower my suspicions to buy her time -- time for what? for her to carry out her plans that she says she doesn't have. She then took my pause to consider her words as (correctly) my disbelief, "But you don't believe me, ... and you never will."
No, I don't believe her, not this alien, not anymore. I always have given her the full benefit of a doubt all these years, and where has that gotten me now? I told her I am observing her tone, her attitude and her actions.
She started to tell me how she thought it was going to go down, that we would get the Separation Agreement and then in six months complete this process.
I got W to spell this out, "completing the process", and at last she said the D word. I told her she was being evasive, as if she didn't want to actually say what her objective really is. W said, "I just thought you didn't need to have me say it; that you know where this leads."
I told W that she needed to say it. I then said, "I still don't like D; I don't believe in it. But I won't fight it -- not that there is anything I could do even if I wanted."
W then seemed a slightly surprised, but only a little. She responded something along the lines of satisfaction.
I then spoke out of hurt, "And you call me 'cold and unfeeling'."
W: "I'm just done."
Me:"You're just stuck."
Like mother, like daughter.
This conversation contained a lot more than this, but this post is already too long and so I will wrap it up. The convo. included having her admit she's planning on leaving this town and relocating away from the metro area, and was investigating other school systems for our S's -- to which I reminded her that moving our S's was not her decision alone. She's got plans and machinations in mind, alright, she just isn't being very open about them.
All-in-all, I tried to set some boundaries with W. I basically told W that I expect her and MIL to show a bit more discretion in how they act around my S's. And she continues to blame me for everything. She is going to continue to say one thing, but disrespect me and do another. I have at least stated my case.
2x4 away on me!
Wrote a response to MIL. I am pondering whether to send it.
I realize that you have been through quite a bit in the last weeks with regards to <uncle> and <aunt>, so I can let quite a bit of what you have said go. (I too have lost an uncle this past week.)
But seeing how this is also the same sentiments that I have been getting from W to one degree or another in the last year, I am sensing your own personal demons are to blame for much of the toxic environment that has plagued my family in the last year. I suggest you re-read and reconsider what you have written and really take an inward look.
I know my faults, my weaknesses. I know the mistakes I've made. I know what a marriage is and is not -- unfortunately only more-so now than six months ago.
And I know where you are coming from, all too well. I have been as patient and understanding of your troubles and foibles as any person can be. I have pitied the pain you've endured in your life, even when you have contributed to it. But no injury you suffer ever justifies your own trespasses against another. When you bring your prejudices and bitterness into my home and foment your self-fulfilling predictions for your own selfish reasons, that is where you cross the line. You demonstrate a failure to understand and learn from your own mistakes, especially with regards to marriage. You show a glaring lack of understanding of, or an arrogant unwillingness to acknowledge, what a marriage is, beyond your own self-serving, jaded misconceptions. One would think you would have gained enough experience to figure that out by now.
You have every right to say and think what you want in your own station, but you have no legal or moral right to do so in our household.
Bottom line: You have interfered with my marriage, my family and our chances at reconciliation.
Instead, I will turn this back around on you, and ask you to cease and desist from interfering with my family, my wife and my children. You have proven you cannot offer wise or even neutral counsel to anyone in my family, and that your own bitterness and unhappiness has both contributed to and enabled reckless and dangerous behaviors by my wife.
In your own words, "it is best to separate and save the children from the angry words, actions and hate." I suggest you recuse yourself for the peace of my children, my family.
I continue to pray for you. I really do.
Blue,
First and foremost, I believe in communication. I totally disagree with any assertion that silence between spouses is better than talking. So you spoke up to the wife. What's she going to do, divorce you? she's doing that anyway. Good. State your case, be a man. Sounds like you were fair and logical in the discussion. I think you did a great job with it. Keep it up. Stand your ground. Don't let her walk all over you. It won't make her like you better. Silence won't make her turn around and say she loves you. Silence will only convince her that she can do what she wants, you are afraid to object.
As for MIL. I'd like to see your response be more specific about where she has crossed boundaries. You talk about her toxic attitude. i have no doubt this is something she is quite proud of. So simply naming it, won't make her see what is wrong with it. I think you have to show her specifically what it is she is doing and how it affects the boys.
Good luck with it. Finding your tongue is good.
hey nocode, I am glad you called W and talked to her about things. Of course, they never tell us the truth or their plans. Its amazing she thinks a D will allow her to just up and move the kids.
Have you sent that letter yet? What about what sara said, more examples, more reasons why you believe she is harming your family.
Hello and thanks, Sara, Lwb,
Yes, I did think some on Sara's suggestions -- I actually had a longer draft before this one, and thought it too long and maybe a little too heavy-handed. But Sara got me to thinking that if I don't risk really shaking things up with MIL and W, our road to D is going to happen regardless -- nothing ventured nothing gained.
So I have added the following:
...
We are all imperfect and make mistakes; there is no sin in making honest mistakes, unless we fail to truly learn from them. You demonstrate a failure to understand and learn from your own mistakes, especially with regards to marriage. You show a glaring lack of understanding of, or an arrogant unwillingness to acknowledge, what a marriage is, beyond your own self-serving, jaded misconceptions. One would think you would have gained enough experience to figure that out by now. And yet you presume to have the wisdom to be able to judge other people and their relationships?
...
I have heard your words about marriage and about divorce. I have heard for myself your cynicism and contempt for matrimony, and how you try to justify divorce as a positive solution in any marriage. You are not friendly to marriage by any stretch, and are certainly no friend to my marriage to your daughter. I have allowed you into our household not once but twice now. And you have betrayed my good faith and undermined my authority in my own household. You have acted not only as W's spy, revealing to her details of my time with my sons in her absence, but you went further and bore false testimony. No, it was not enough to just report the facts to my wayward wife, but you had to make stuff up as well (and to take credit for things I did around the house).
Your character assassination of me is beyond the pale.
And more and more you've let your opinion be known how you feel about your daughter's marriage to me. In fact, I have my sources and I do know how you have been talking behind my back to the relations on W's side even before I knew what was going down back in June. You have salted the earth and poisoned the well for my ability to recover my relationship with our family long before I recognized your treachery.
I have also heard your condescending attitude about men in general, and husbands in particular. You want to believe that all men are alike and are out to hurt women, that they're stupid, helpless, and only good for being a woman's hand servant. You talk about "partnerships" in marriage, but that's not what you really expect. You've got some serious problems, lady, and it alarms me that my myopic, self-centered wife thinks you are competent enough for raising two small boys. I am seriously worried about what long term effects their being constantly exposed to your biases and prejudices is going to have on them.
Case in point: You have time and again gotten into petty little arguments with S7, a 7-year old little boy. You have frequently gotten your nose out of joint arguing with a child about silly, pointless stuff -- as if you yourself were but an immature, petulant little child. W herself complained bitterly about it at one time, but apparently has since turned a blind eye towards it, all because you now excuse and cheerlead her own peccadilloes. Well, I saw another example of this just the other day, yet again, and it's still happening, sad to say.
As for cheerleading your daughter's sins, I know you've blessed and encouraged her to leave me and even to take up with this other man. That's called adultery and you have blessed it. She's still married to me, for God's sake!
I know it must give you great satisfaction to have your formerly conscientious, God-fearing daughter turn astray and follow you down your same path of heartache and oblivion. Misery loves company? I guess you must think it vindicates you and the poor choices you've made in life that your daughter can be just as flawed as yourself, and that she can no longer hold that over your head. You just don't learn from your mistakes, do you? No, you embrace them, arrogantly display them, and blame every one else for what went wrong. Now you're coaching your daughter into the same hopelessly weak and unrepentant mindset.
You have covered for W when she's been painfully wayward, and then had the absolute gall to tell me -- when I rightfully got upset with your helping to cover her betrayal -- that I had "a bad attitude." That is priceless -- just how do you expect a spouse is supposed to take his partner's misbehavior and betrayal?!! Furthermore, how is any rational, moral being supposed to take someone who should be a loving and responsible mother condone and encourage their daughter's sins against her own family. You couldn't even manage to stay neutral, for crying out loud.
...
I have not sent this yet -- still thinking on it.
How do you think she will take this letter? Will she show it to W? Do you care if she sees it? Its definately accusing her of many things, but the things ring true. MIL sounds like a bitter woman, is she an unhappy person in general?
Yes, MIL will undoubtedly tell W, and how! MIL will blow a gasket and step up her pace to have me ousted for good.
MIL has tried to pass herself off in the last year or so as being a "happy" person -- it's all show. W now tries to cover for MIL too in that regard, by trying to convince me that MIL is doing a good job raising our S's while she goes off to do whatever.
I had a very informative discussion with MIL the week before I moved out. I let her do all the talking -- giving her all the rope she needed to hang herself. She smugly tried to lecture me about marriage and what I had done so horribly wrong to screw everything up. She excused her daughter's feelings and tried to calmly tell me that I should accept her decisions. MIL gave me her spiel about how she thinks a marriage should be, and how a husband should be willing to come home after a hard day's of work and relieve the wife of any household duties, out of "love and kindness." She thinks a husband should bow and scrape and do anything it takes to show his wife how much he loves her. I kid you not.
The whole time I'm listening to MIL fully lay out her warped sense of marital bliss, I am thinking that this woman is off her rocker. I bit my tongue so hard that I might allow her to continue this blather to completion. Afterwards, I knew where I stood in her eyes -- and that MIL was (is) an accessory to the crime against my family.
Blue,
NO. I hope you have not sent this letter. This is not at all what I meant by be specific.
Hello, Sara.
Too heavy-handed then? Not specific enough?
You need to step back from this. That letter is from start to finish a rant and a condemnation of her. It will not reflect well on you in other people's eyes. You do not want that passed around the family table or shown to the judge. You want to take the high road and show that you have been a good person and trying to good all along, while she has misjudged you. That's all. Stay away from condemnation. It will not win you friends or influence people!
I would be happy to help you write a letter. Send the original from her to me at: purpleheiz at aol.com. I'll send you back something like what I think you might say.
Yes, thanks, Sara,
It was originally meant just as a cathartic exercise -- I have lots of letters I've written over these last six months that are filed away but will never be sent.
I sent you an email.
Thanks.
OK, Blue. I have sent you a draft of what I would suggest. You can post it here for other people's input.
Your letter is good for catharsis. You could take it and the others and burn them for even more cathartic effect.
I agree with Sara...don't send this letter to MIL!
Best to just let it go....write and write and write and then burn, burn, burn. Write some more if you need to...burn some more. You don't want to re-read this stuff...it's rancid and toxic.
Think about what the reason is for sending it to her. Do you want to p1ss her off? undoubtedly that will work. Do you want MORE drama in your life? You'll get it if you send that.
detach my dear. Detach.
[Now where is that 'pot calling kettle black' icon]
Hugs
LooseThread (formerly CaseyMooCow)
Many thanks to Sara.
I may be overreacting (when under-reacting got me into this marital situation in the first place.) I need to reconsider whether to respond at all. I've talked to W, W's Aunt and W's Sister (mother of the groom)-- other than W, they seemed non-plussed by the items of contention in MIL's message.
Thanks, all.
<journaling>
It's been the better part of a week since I posted.
I sent no reply to MIL -- I decided that she is beyond being able to talk to anyway. Absolutely nothing good would come from trying to say anything to her or W's sister. All I get is their contempt no matter how much good will I give them. Same with W, but that's another story.
Tuesday, I went to a parent-teacher meeting on S7. W was there. Nothing unusual to report; S7 is apparently doing fairly well. He just needs to work on his writing skills.
Wednesday, I saw another L. Looking for a collaborative law attorney. L agreed that W and I should seek mediation, if possible, and get a Separation Agreement (SA) signed. Suggested we get our 2007 W2's before settling on child support.
Friday, picked up the boys after work. W was trying to get us moved out the door when S3 got his finger caught in the door jam, mashed his right ring finger. (S3 has a bad habit of grabbing the edges of doors as he moves past them.) He cried a bit, but he was okay -- no serious harm. W was furious at me for this incident; and I was upset with her. W blamed me for closing the door on our S's finger. I disagreed but said no more than that. W, as usual, was trying to avoid any physical contact with me as we were ushering the boys outside when this occurred. I was annoyed by another instance of W's neurotic contact avoidance maneuvers, and then it led to S3 getting injured.
S3 brightened quickly enough. So I took the both of them to a friend's house to meet with others from our DivorceCare group. It was a dinner and discussion party, and everyone got to meet my S's in person for the first time. The adults got to discuss our situations in a bit more in-depth, and to trade off self-help/spiritual growth books. The kids kept busy playing with the toys of our host's children.
We're now planning a big get-together at the museum for the kids on Monday.
Saturday, tonight, W forgot -- again -- to call her children before bedtime. The kids, by her own words, should be in bed by 8:00 PM, with "lights out" no later than 8:30. Well, tonight it got past 9:00 PM and she still hadn't called. In the past, her forgetting to call meant she was either out carousing with "friends" or in the company of the OM, but she never admits anything.
I decided I would call W instead, because I didn't want any hard feelings were she to suddenly call after I got them off to sleep. W apologized for not calling herself, and tried to offer some lame excuse about having to work on paperwork at her company's office. I wasn't buying that b.s., and just said, "whatever." I'm sick and tired of the lies and excuses.
Personally, the GAL is having a positive effect. I am feeling so much more detached and insulated from my w and her antics. While I still occasionally feel the pangs of remorse and the sadness in missing the woman I married, I am coming to terms with the reality that person is not likely to come back. In all likelihood, the soul of the woman I married is dead and buried, and I have to treat this situation as such. I am, effectively, the "widowed" father of two wonderful little boys.
Furthermore, if I ask myself do I want this person back, as she is now, I can say emphatically no. I am just not seeing much in the way of redeeming qualities in her right now. I can truly see now where the major source of my deep depression came from, and taking her back now in the state she's in would be another hell on earth from which I might not recover.
No, it would take a huge amount of change in the both of us to right this foundering ship. And my W is showing absolutely no willingness to even consider trying. I'm not despairing so much as realizing I don't really have time for this cr*p. I need to keep moving forward.
Phew!! I am so glad you decided against sending MIL anything. SO GLAD! It all *should* be said, however, it will fall on deaf and bitter ears, and do nothing but increase their nastiness.
I am happy to hear about the nice meeting with S7's school and sorry to hear about S3's little finger.
Isn't the contact avoidance annoying? I mean, puleeeeze! All summer, H would visibly flinch/recoil when I touched him. C'mon......spare me.
I know what you mean about not wanting this person, this present person. Its normal to miss what we had, and even mourn it, but we have to realize that this person is gone. Sigh.
Lwb, I also realize that the person I was becoming right before the bomb is also dead and gone. And good riddance. I was not happy and very lost, very bewildered with the outcome of our lives. I can't say what lies ahead or where I am actually headed in my new course, but I know where I am not going, at least no longer. I feel I am now slowly getting my life back on track.
My thanks and gratitude for your support.
CORRECTION: I stated above "Absolutely nothing good would come from trying to say anything to her or W's sister." I meant to say, "Absolutely nothing good would come from trying to say anything to her or MIL's sister." Actually, W's sister still appears to be staying as neutral and even-handed as she possibly can, so I still consider her open-minded.
Wow, I feel the same way. I still look back in amazement at the person I had become prior to the A. I wasn't happy, couldn't figure out why, and sure couldn't answer the question "Why?" as to why I was doing things I was doing. I am still sorting through all of that. And yes, my friend, good riddance to that lwb. That lwb wasn't happy, didn't have her priorities straight, and sure didn't know why. I see myself clearly now and want the person I am working to become.
And very glad to her W's sister is remaining neutral. Does W value her opinion?
Does W value her opinion?
I would have thought so at one time. But I can about guarantee that if my SIL should ever say anything to W that is not in support of W's current choices, my SIL would quickly find herself on the outside looking in, by W
and by their mother. W and MIL now brook no difference of opinion when it comes to these matters.
Your wife and her mother sound like such hateful people. You mean they will turn their back on anyone who goes against their opinion? If I were you I would try and get more visitation. That is horrible for your children to witness that on a daily level. At least they get to see some sort of decency when they are with you.
Wow, I feel the same way. I still look back in amazement at the person I had become prior to the A. I wasn't happy, couldn't figure out why, and sure couldn't answer the question "Why?" as to why I was doing things I was doing. I am still sorting through all of that. And yes, my friend, good riddance to that lwb. That lwb wasn't happy, didn't have her priorities straight, and sure didn't know why. I see myself clearly now and want the person I am working to become.
I have those same feelings too. I've noticed a lot of postings like that too. And it seems like a lot of our spouses kind of go through the opposite almost, as we are working on improving ourselves they are almost going through a downward spiral, mean, hateful, etc. If the affair ends and a couple reconciles, would my spouse ever return to something more like he was the first 20 years of our marriage, i.e. a nice guy, or would he be more like he is now during his affair I wonder? I mean if the person he was for 40 years is dead and buried as you say NoCode, should I be working on trying to reconcile with him then? Karen43
I mean if the person he was for 40 years is dead and buried as you say NoCode, should I be working on trying to reconcile with him then?
Only God can say, Karen. Or more precisely, only by what God says to you and what He tells you in your mind and heart will you know the answer to that question. Do you feel that your H is somewhere trapped in his body and can be restored? Or has their real soul evaporated, leaving only this sad, angry husk? I ask myself these questions all the time. Time will tell.
But as a means of coping with my sitch' and being able to detach, I am choosing to prepare for the worst. Call it pessimism, if you like. If I am proven wrong in the end, then I will
rejoice in knowing the person I swore to love, honor and cherish has not gone into oblivion. But if that is not the case, and I am sadly proven "right" in my precaution, then I hope to insulate my children and myself from the repercussions as much as I can.
This is one thing I
wish to be proven wrong on.
<Warning: long journal>
Yesterday started out good. Ended badly.
Had my two S's for an extra day, MLK holiday. Went to the museum with S's and met up with others and their kids from our DivorceCare group. Had a great time and then dropped off my S's at their mother's before heading back to apartment.
At apartment W called and gave an angry, vitriolic tirade on how I was a "bad, bad parent" for not getting S7 to complete his homework over the weekend. She started going off on me for "failing" this one little task, when I had the entire "3-day weekend" to get it completed.
I tried to defend myself, and got a bit too angry at her threats that she wanted to minimize my contact with our S's, to keep them from harm caused by me. She knows what buttons to push, and her threats really unsettled me. At one point she said, "There's a reason you're in that apartment now, and I am here at home!" (This infuriates me -- she forgets that I am not in my house precisely because of the sacrifice I made to keep the peace and to promote the welfare of my children. I felt like telling her to get the hell out of my house.)
I went to my DivorceCare (DC) meeting feeling absorbed by thoughts of this fight, and having difficulty concentrating on the session material. It didn't help that W tried to call me on my cell phone during the middle of the session -- when she knows where I am at that time.
I called her back afterwards and she said she was in the middle of the difficult, arduous task of getting S7 to do his writing assignment, the one he did not complete this weekend. She was in a foul mood, and said she'd call back later only after S7 completed his work.
A few minutes later she did call and let me speak to S7. I congratulated and praised S7 for completing the last part of his assignment. W then hung up to put S7 to bed.
A while later, still stewing over the harsh words spoken, and recalling the thoughts I had in my DC meeting, I determined that the Christian thing to do, the thing God would want me to do, would be to suck up my pride and admit that I was wrong in not taking this assignment seriously enough -- as an opener to asking W to consider working together with me to help our S's, instead of fighting.
So at the sire risk of starting another R talk, I called W on the phone about 10 PM. She first told me that our S's were in bed asleep, so I had better be calling her and not them. And that's how it started.
We had a lot of harsh words. I tried to agree where I could, but had to object to a lot of her more insidious, unfair remarks. She showed a relentless amount of hostility, and took no pains to soften the candor of her words. It was near impossible to endure the disrespectful ire she levied on me, and several times her absolute contempt for me was palpable. If I tried to speak, she either told me to shut up or pointed out that I cannot listen to her without interrupting, and thus I "never" listen, and it was "pointless." All the while she's lambasting me for being mean, overly-opinionated, never listening, self-righteous, selfish, cold, etc., I noted she was displaying those same negative traits herself with every word she uttered.
I did note she made a few "admissions". First, she again acknowledged the OM for the first time in a while. But she tried to rehash the whole situation with the other man by offering more details than before. She said, once again, that she was already planning on leaving me when the OM supposedly got wind of her intentions. When W told OM that her M was over, he came forward and confessed that he had felt something deeply for W for the entire 11 years they've known each other. W claims she was both surprised and overwhelmed that OM felt this way and it was only then that she opened up to him, but it went no further, she claimed.
W said I could blame her mother for our M breaking up sooner rather than later, rather than the OM. She said that until MIL came in our house W didn't think she could make it on her own financially. Once she figured out that with MIL providing help with our children, she realized she could earn a very good living and thus she did not need me anymore. She said I wasn't there for her and the kids anyway, and was "no help" at all for anything. Cut me like a knife. So she claims that she was going to bide her time until she could either leave me and still be secure financially, or until our S's were old enough to both be self-sufficient in school (i.e., until our S's could become your typical latch-key children of divorce.) But her Mom helped her get moving sooner.
W continues to deny there has been any physical contact or PA with OM; she even refuses to acknowledge she is/was having an EA, saying they are just "very good friends". She tells me I am dead wrong about my assertions she is planning on marrying OM or anyone else -- she claims that she is "done" with M and has no plans to ever get married again. (I am not buying this -- I know her too well. (1) W's self-esteem is tied to her sexuality, so she is not going to do without. W will not be able to remain celibate for very long. (2) She will rationalize premarital sex and "living in sin" for only so long before her conscious dictates she make herself "legitimate". (3) So she says she is down on M right now, but she also has said on similar subjects that she can change her mind.)
She continues to use our S's as her primary excuse for leaving me. In the beginning she used my neglect of her feelings as her primary excuse. And she considers my depression to be a non-issue, just "a cop-out" on my part. When I asked her just what precisely she thought caused my depression, she said she didn't care. And now that Asperger's has been ruled out in my case, she no longer brings that up as my problem.
But now that I have redoubled my love and attention onto S7 and S3, she feels the need to transfer her angst and her accusations of my supposed negligence of her onto our children, now saying her primary cause for wanting to leave me was because of how I neglected our S's. I have a very difficult time with her accusations that I am a bad parent and saying that I must have my time minimized with them as a result --- veiled threats to wrest full custody of our kids. It's one thing for her to deny my love for her, but another entirely when she denies my love and devotion to our children.
Still, I ended up trying to apologize to W and to be diplomatic in trying to get her to understand that we need to cease these hostilities -- for the sake of our S's. I told her that while she may no longer consider me to be her husband anymore, I am not her enemy either. Furthermore, I will always be our children's father and she will always be their mother -- there's just no getting around that despite the fact she seems to hope I will just go away. That is simply not going to happen, so she needs to get used to it. I told her while we are not likely to salvage this M, we still need to try to find some basic level of reconciliation. I all but pleaded with W to consider our S's well being first and put these hostilities aside, for their sake.
It took a loooong time to get my message through to W. She took every sentence I said negatively and would immediately interrupt me or make some snide comment. She has so much disdain for me that I cannot fathom how she ever got to this state of mind. Eventually I got my points across, patiently getting through the tangents, the accusations, the disrespect, but I just don't know how much she really got; she just has so much hatred and contempt, so much disregard for my thoughts and feelings. She accuses me of thinking I am God, for trying to point out right from wrong, or for trying to "predict" outcomes in our situation, even though anybody with half a mind can see what is likely, given the current circumstances. She doesn't want to see or even consider the possibility that the emperor has no clothes.
At one point, W glowed about how her mother is really doing well with our S's. She claims MIL is showing more patience with the both of them, including S7, than even herself at times. And in describing her mother's advice, W actually tried to tell me of her mother has so much "wisdom". I couldn't contain my laughter and outburst at such a ridiculous notion. I apologized and said that MIL has never learned from any of her mistakes in her life, so "wisdom" is just not a word I would ever associate with her. I told W that as far as her mother's improvements and her ability to raise our children, I have direct observation of how she still has childish arguments with S7, and holds juvenile, petty grudges against a mere seven-year old. I disputed any assertion MIL is fit to raise our S's and it concerned me greatly.
W's response: "It beats daycare." I nearly fell out of my chair.
By comparison, W treats me either like an imbecile and an unruly child, or a villain escaped from hell (sometimes both). All alien spew, I know, but it hurts no less. She also told me that this, how she is now -- hostile against me and contemptuous of my character, selfish and concerned with herself first -- is how she really is, and that she is merely returning back to how she was before she met me. She claims she suppressed her real self for my sake back when we first started dating, and now she can be "free to be herself." She claims she realized early on in our R that I was too intolerant of other's opinions, so she just went along with what she considers to be my petty value system.
It was such utter drivel, and mindlessly hateful speech, all designed to demoralize me and anger me. I saw it for what it was, and yet it still hurts. I asked her at one point when she lost her soul, or did she really ever have one. (Yes, this was a very anti-DB slip of the tongue.) She shot back that was between her and God -- her soul was just fine, thank you very much, and not something I was qualified to judge.
I told W I think I understand her better than anyone else. I thought I knew her better than I actually did prior to the bomb, but I was lost then and couldn't see where she really was. Love is blind. But I know her motivations now and see how her priorities are actually stacked. I told her I understood her insecurities, her self-esteem problems, and how all her long years of abuse by her mother and her step-mother have damaged her -- and now she is transferring the blame for all of that onto me, making me into the cause for all her problems. She started to argue saying, "So now this is all my fault, you think."
I said, "No, but we've already hashed out my failings, and my faults. Over and over. Do you want to go into those yet again?" I continued, saying that it all boils down to trust, and that she has never given me her complete trust, always doubting my love for her, always making me have to "prove" my love for her. I endured the continual testing of my devotion to her, even though I had given her my heart completely.
She responded that I began to take it all back over these years, and I thus killed the marriage.
And then I wrecked our finances, she says, and became unstable and untrustworthy. That I became unreliable and a major disappointment to her. And that I neglected her and our children. And now I have failed another of her "tests", and failed our S7, leaving her to clean up the mess. She said all I want to do is be the "good daddy", but not the real father. A real father would make his S do his homework, before going out and having fun with him, rewarding him unfairly for not doing his work. I could not gainsay much of what she accused me of in that. She oversimplifies the situation, but yes I failed in that particular role this weekend. But it does not warrant her total disrespect.
W said that I make it too easy for S7 to just ignore adults and get away with not doing what he needs. She claims S7 learns such behavior from me, because she says I ignore her and her demands.
W made another admission. She told me that she tells S7 that when he argues with her, she asks him if he learned such behavior from "Daddy". I got her to clarify her statement. W said that S7 has learned his disrespect and unruly ways from observing me and my treatment of his mother. She said that my arguments against her were recognized by S7 as a bad influence, but he tries to protect me when W asks him about my influence on him.
I said, "So you are asking S7 whether his bad behavior was learned from his daddy?"
W: "I never called you bad in front of him, no. I said your behavior was bad. I never say anything bad about you to him. Unlike you, who tells S7 I am a liar."
Me:"But you are saying you use negative behavior to associate that with me, his father. You are telling S7 that his father argues and that S7 learns such bad behavior from me. So you are putting in his mind to associate negative behaviors with his father."
W: "Well, yes, you are the one who has exhibited the bad behaviors -- he understands that."
Me: "You accuse me of not "seeing it". But you are the one who just can't see it -- how harmful this is to S7 and his relationship with me. You said you would never do that, right after accusing me of the same, but yet you just said you did this to me."
W: "You just don't get it. Separating the person from the behavior."
Me: "Oh, I get it alright."
My M is dead.
I know -- trust nothing they say. But I cannot abide this woman anymore.
Whew! I hope S7 doesn't tell all that to the teacher when she asks for the homework. It's his responsibility to do it. And both of you ought to let him.
Sara,
I fully admit my fault in not forcing S7 to sit still and complete his homework assignment. He is good at math, excellent in his reading skills and is very ambitious in his artwork. He's very bright and loves stories, and he can even come up with his own stories verbally, but he has difficulty writing sentences. It bores him and his fine motor skills are just not what they need to be for him to write legibly. He wants to avoid activities he does not excel at.
Getting S7 to sit down and write three complete sentences is a bit of an ordeal -- it can literally take hours. In the end, I got him to write two sentences and draw an accompanying picture. W said what he wrote was not readable, so she had him start over. By the time S7 was through, it was over an hour and a half past his bedtime.
Yes. My 18 year old always had that problem. 16 more weeks and he will finish high school. Kids have different learning curves. Sometimes it helps to ask the teacher to go with the kid. Homework was torture for J. He did what he did and when it was time for bed, he went to bed. It's second grade.
I feel so lost and rudderless. I have been praying for God to show me some guidance.
I know my W just dumped a vat of alien spew on me. I know her words and actions don't jive. I know the mass of the evidence; I know the course of events that have taken place. But my W's words to me the other night were so disturbing. It is so very confusing. Could she really have "played" me for 17 years, as she seems to now indicate? Was it all just a lie from the very beginning? It doesn't add up.
I am beginning to wonder where in these forums I belong now. Where should I hang my thread? Yes, I believe W is having an EA, and I know she has had opportunity and desire for a PA -- so there is infidelity.
My W is definitely showing signs of MLC too. And we are separated.
Given the poor progress I have made -- I manage to detach only to continue to discover she has new ways of hurting me -- am I misreading everything?
All I know is that I did truly love her, fully and completely. Do I still love her? I don't know -- I love who she was, but she's trying now to convince me she never "was".
I don't want to lose my S's. I do love my children, and they're all I have in this world. Why is she trying so hard to destroy me?
Hey Nocode,
hang in there buddy..... You need to remember that Nobody makes you feel anyway that you don't alow them to..... No I am not saying I always feel the best I to have my bad days but little by little you start to see how you control your feelings...You can make the argument last longer or you can end it. You have more power than you realize...
I know how you feel about your son's.... Mine is 10. He is my best friend... Nothing will come between you and them. trust me.
take care big guy.... I am Not there yet by any means but 8 months ago My Wife would not have woke me up if the house was on fire.... Now she at least would wake me up to get the dog out...
Dr. love
NCB- I will admit to not following your sitch lately, but I will give you a couple tidbits that may help.
1-I read above that you are part of a DivorceCare group. Depending on how far into the class you are, go back through your workbook and re-do the daily reading assignments for guidance and comfort. You will make it through this and come out the other side a better stronger person.
2-As far as losing your sons go, you need to decide how much visitation you are going to demand. In my case, I will not settle for less than 50%. If I have to mortgage everything I own, I will. Only you can make this decision.
You are a good person NC, you are honorable and doing right by your boys.
You are a good person NC, you are honorable and doing right by your boys.
That sums it up. You are affected by your W's words because they are hurtful and most of all, none of it is true. She is spinning, circling, lashing out and you are the closest to her. Her guilt and her MLC is affecting her deeply. You can do nothing more than what you are doing. You can only detach so far because of your sons. Its impossible to not let the words sink in at times. And just because you 'initiated' the R talk last night (by doing the right thing and attempting to apologize) doesn't mean you did something wrong. Those talks are unavoidable at times.
Keep going on your path. Keep focusing on your boys. I know its hard when W's words cut to your soul. HUGS!
Thanks, everyone,
It is so hard now. I am continually stunned at the degree of hatred and irrational fear this woman now has for me. Just when I think it can't possibly get worse, it does.
The strain of this is so great. But, yes, thanks for reminding me that my mood is really in my own hands. When W tells me she is now perfectly peaceful and content with me out of her life, and only ever gets disturbed now when she sees or talks to me, I can say the same about her -- if I don't ever have anything to say or do with her, I am just fine. But one bad conversation with her and I feel the lead weights of depression trying to bring me down.
I now recently have come to the realization of why I became so depressed years ago, and W is a root cause. The question on my mind is which came first -- my depression or her withdrawal of her love and respect from me? Which caused the other?
I know. Quit trying to ponder the unanswerable.
Husband, you've got the patience of a saint. The comment about your wife and your dog was pretty funny. I suspect you feel that it is still not far off the mark, even if exaggeration.
Mc, I don't know what I would have done without these forums and my DC group. I have told my W I want 50% or as close as we can get to that. At first she took it in only slightly surprised, but receptive. Since then, however, she has slowly come up with one excuse after another why it wouldn't work, calling it too disruptive, too difficult to manage, etc. Now she's claiming I am unfit for anything beyond basic visitation.
Lwb, Heaven knows I would never put up with this pain like I do were it not for my S's. I am frequently reminded of Nietzsche's saying, "That which does not kill us makes us stronger." I sometimes think W just wants me dead.
Thanks, all.
Hmmm, W asked me to come over to the house this evening to watch our sons while she went out and saw a patient. I agreed and watched the boys finish their dinner, then got them ready for bed. W was gone for almost two hours. (Part of me did wonder whether she was playing me for a fool and going and getting a "quickie" in with the OM, but then I thought if she were going to be that vile, then I don't care about her anymore anyway.)
So she can express so much angst about me being around in her life and in the lives of my S's, but that doesn't stop her from using me as her baby sitter. Thus I can't really be all that bad a parent or custodian, huh?
To me, it shows not to believe her when she is ranting.
Worse case scenario, she used you to see OM tonight. Other than it hurting you, you did get more quality time with the boys, and your W trusted you to be their father/caregiver. These are good things!
To me, it shows not to believe her when she is ranting.
Exactly, Lwb. And if she really is out seeing the OM instead of being with her S's, then it is certainly
her loss.
And your gain!!!
Thanks for your post on my thread Mr. NoCode. You are the bomb.
I don't know how much more I can take of this. Right now I am still trying to come down from a very ugly scene with my W.
The weekend was wonderful. I had my two S's and we went to Monster Jam last night. We've never been -- and I never in my life thought I'd ever be taking my kids to this kind of event -- but here we went, and we had a blast. The boys were enthralled.
The rest of the weekend was great, had a lot of quality one-on-one (and one-on-two) time with each of them. We got to play together, and talk, and watch a movie on VOD, and read (lots of) stories. We went to church too and had our own bible story together. All in all a great father-son weekend.
But then as soon as I walked in the door of our house to drop off our S's, just as I was about to show W the photos I took of our S's at the monster truck show, she pointed to a stack of computer equipment she had dragged into our kitchen, and demanded that I remove all my electronics from our house -- right then and there, tonight.
This was all the computer and server equipment I had set up in our bonus room, which I used regularly for my work and as a "lab" for networking and testing -- that is, until the MIL moved in and took it over.
I tried to tell W that I was not prepared to be moving all that equipment tonight, and that it needed to wait. W responded that her aunt was coming over tomorrow to spend an entire week before she flies out to visit other family. W insisted that all my "useless" computer and electronic "graveyard" needed to be taken away to make room for her aunt -- and if I wasn't able to take these away immediately, she was going to throw it all away, tossing it to the curb.
I got pretty steamed at that point. I said a number of words in anger and she kept pushing my buttons and trying to back me into a corner. She said that we need to get rid of my "junk" anyway in order to be able to sell the house when we D. I told her she could start with her own "junk" first. And I also said it made no sense to force this issue tonight. W insists she's given me six months to take care of this. She said she has told me numerous times I could have come over any weekend and work on getting my stuff out <Hah! not whenever MIL was there, I wouldn't/couldn't.>
I told her that if I was no longer going to be able to keep my belongings in my house, -- especially when my 2-bedroom apartment just doesn't have the room, then I was ready for her and her mother to leave. It's time to sell the house -- now.
(That was about the point that MIL came in the door. Cruella herself.)
W kept saying fine, she had wanted to move out originally. I said okay, start looking. W replied she already had. I then asked her where and then asked her was it a particular address (the address of OM). W pleaded ignorance.
I told W that I would start calling some real estate agents to get the house on the market. But then she backpedaled a bit and said we have to fix it up first before we try to sell it.
There were a lot more angry words said between us -- all the while I am trying to figure out how to get 4 computer systems and 3 monitors loaded in my car, along with networking equipment and cables. S7 asked why we were arguing, and W tried to say to our S's that this was the reason she and I had to be separated, because of Daddy's anger. I told S7 that it was because his mother thought more about herself than her family. W bristled at that -- and told me not to put our son in the middle of this -- to which I objected to her hypocrisy and the double standard she just demonstrated.
The part that hurt me the most was that she started this argument in front of our two S's, and then blamed me for their being around to hear it.
Our S's seemed to feel so sorry for the two of us. And both of them, S7 and S3, were trying to help me carry out what they could to my car -- they so wanted to be helpful. I looked at S3 as he was passing by, smiling and carrying a 3' length of network cable. It was really nothing as a load for him -- still I thanked him so much for being a big help. He was so proud.
I started silently weeping as I continued back upstairs for another load.
W threatened that she was now going to have to hire a L, since I was supposedly being "unreasonable", and mediation was not going to work. I told her that was up to her whether mediation was going to work or not.
After a while I finished cramming my car full of my stuff -- and then went and hugged my two boys goodbye. I then offered a brief apology to W for losing my temper, and then left.
My sitch just sucks. And I can't DB myself out of a paper bag.
NCB-
You are absolutely right, you can't DB. Your W isn't allowing you to DB and you see DBing's only measure of success being reconcilliation. DBing is also for you. You did what you did. Don't sweat it.
IMHO, mediation isn't for you. Your W is a bit confrontational and maybe you would be better off having an attorney handle it for you. You don't have to be adverserial, but I think you need some to be looking out for you. I have heard of too many horror stories of mediation cases gone bad for someone. Usually by a confrontational argumentative person.
Stay strong brother. You are a good man and a great dad. You are doing right by your boys.....that is what matters.
Big big hugs to you NCB...you were trying so hard. It sounds like your w feels like she has given you 'enough chances' to come and get your computer stuff, but that you have been caught surprised by her demand to get it out NOW.
I can put myself in her shoes. She is trying to gain control of the situation to make you bend to her wishes so she feels better. Best case scenario I can think of for moving forward is to not mention the fight again, other than do what you already have done (to apologise for losing your temper). If she brings up the topic again you could consider saying some of the following:
"I allowed myself to get angry. I am sorry for that"
"I can imagine that you might have been nervous about what I would say when you told me to take my stuff. I understand that you felt that you had been clear in the past about getting my stuff. I am happy to get the computer stuff out of your way, I just wasn't ready to do it then and there and was caught on the back foot and responded poorly"
I dunno if that helps...I'm typing out of my bottom here, but I know the sort of situation you are talking about. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. A doormat if you give in and the worst person in the world if you try to stand up for yourself. 180s don't seem to work in this situation - do you feel the same way?
Thanks, all.
MC, right now I would be fine with even a most basic level of reconciliation -- semi-congeniality and civility. We don't necessarily have to be best friends anymore, but we need to get along at least cordially, without this hostility, for the sake of our two small children.
180s don't seem to work in this situation - do you feel the same way?
Oh, yes, LT. Very much. I have come to realize that what I need to do is the
right thing, even if that too damns me. At least I can then live with myself, even if she still refuses to.
What I should
not have done was allow myself to get angry, especially with our S's present. It didn't help the situation, and gave her what she really wanted -- another tool to bludgeon me with, now and later.
nocodes,
just catching up on your stitch.. im so sorry she is being a beast of a person.. By your post I can see she likes turning things around on you purposely, probably so she doesn't have to feel so guilty about what she is doing, they are all good at that.
I wonder some days in the end if its all worth it.. some days I wish I could have skipped the marriage part and just had my kids.. but then they wouldn't have a father, so its a catch 22.
(((hugs)) to you..
tal
What I wonder is when our spouses do nasty things like that do they really not understand they are being nasty or do they feel better if they pretend they are being normal or maybe being nasty is so normal to them they don't realize any more when they are being nasty or normal and their is a difference? My H sometimes doesn't realize the difference either so I have wondered these kinds of questions before....Karen43
NC,
What a wonderful example she is setting for her sons!
Hugs,
I looked at S3 as he was passing by, smiling and carrying a 3' length of network cable. It was really nothing as a load for him -- still I thanked him so much for being a big help. He was so proud.
This hit home because it would so be my D3. My heart aches for you and your sons.
And I can't DB myself out of a paper bag.
That's me tapping your shoulder. I'm in the paper bag with you. Stuck....
You did your best to control your temper/anger(could have been so much worse), I know the guilt you feel about your sons witnessing it is huge. I am sorry for that. BUT..that is 100% your W's fault. I am so sorry, NCB
That's me tapping your shoulder. I'm in the paper bag with you. Stuck....
Lwb, if I had to be stuck in this wet paper bag with anyone, I couldn't think of anyone nicer to be with. Honestly. (I just hope you didn't pick up this flu-like bug I've got while in there with me.)
Oh, hey, maybe
that's why Light Switch got us two mixed up.
<time to journal a little:>
W called me this morning. She tracked me down given I was not responding to my phone in my office. She figured out I had taken a sick day, and said she could tell I did not sound well by my voice when I talked to our S's earlier.
Her motive for tracking me down was selfish, no big surprise. She wanted to schedule a meeting with a mediator a week from next Friday. Said it would be $200/hour, which we would split.
I didn't object, although I am uneasy about any particular mediator she would come up with. W said that mediation would be the least costly to the both of us, rather than litigation. Again, I told her that was entirely up to her whether mediation would work or not.
Mostly I was trying to be non-confrontational and not allowing W to force an argument out of me. But at one point W said that "unless you become unreasonable, we should not have to hire our own attorneys."
To which I objected, saying, "If I become unreasonable?"
W corrected herself: "If we cannot come to some agreement, only then should we have to hire our own lawyers."
At that I said, "Thank you." And we moved on from there.
I told W we needed to have her W2 before we start any mediation, as well as a check stub from her new salaried position. W thought I was talking about me doing our 2007 tax returns. I told her sure, I would do them, but we need her information for the mediation and for determining the settlement.
W said something about her understanding why my income mattered for the settlement of child support, but she didn't think her income had any bearing. I corrected her saying both our incomes are factored into child support.
W said okay, sounded a little hurt, and said, again, that she didn't want any money from me if that's how I felt. I told her I was not going to skip out on my obligations, but I do want what was fair. I told her I was not going to pad the child support payment with what would amount to alimony (especially since she is not entitled to any spousal support given her adultery.)
W tried to get me to agree on the afternoon of Friday, Feb 8, but I told her I'd have to check with my employer first. I typically need to give them two weeks advanced notice before time off is granted. In the end, W agreed to push it back to Friday, Feb 22.
I then told W goodbye and hung up.
Until that conversation, I was not willing to ever say anything to W about anything other than our S's. I am trying to stay as absolutlely dark as possible. I am taking the policy of no talk with W that might extend into her talking about things other than the actual business between us. Just the facts, ma'am.
W has been in the habit of bending my ear at times talking about her "hard work" and "long hours" and all of the "mountains of paperwork" she has to contend with. I am no longer telling her anything about the difficulties and struggles I am facing in my own work, mainly because it falls on deaf ears anyway. Most times, I tolerate it in hopes we can get back to something of mutual concern. But lately, I feel better if I don't give her the opening to prattle on about something she knows she doesn't want me to be a part of anyway.
I am doing my best from now on to keep the conversation very short and to the point. I don't want to be a part of her drama any more than I have to. It gets me absolutely nowhere.
<journal>
Was home sick again today, but started feeling better some time before noon. W called to "check" on me. When she found I was not at work, she asked to leave S7 with me so she could go to her office this afternoon. I agreed after a moment's hesitation -- hesitation for thinking what might really be going on.
And then later she asks if she can also drop S3 off at my place so he can take his nap here as well. Hmmm, gets more and more curious.
I'm still wondering why her Mary Poppins-calibre, oh-so-child-loving mother was not interested in caring for our two S's instead of exposing them to their father who's recovering from a nasty sickness. Moreover with W's aunt/MIL's sister visiting, I could not understand why the both of these paragons of motherly virtue were not protesting their losing the chance to spend time with our darling S's.
Whatever. W prattled on about some nonsense about having to go into the office to learn some new timesheet. I wish she would cease trying to come up with these excuses. She's shown nothing but hatred for me personally and utter contempt for my parenting skills. So why the pretense of giving me excuses and playing nice, when she's just wanting to use me for her own selfish interests now and once that's done she'll quickly revert to her nasty hostile stance afterwards?
I guess I am a sucker in her eyes, since I have almost never refused any additional time with my children. And yet it just flabbergasts me that she knows I have been sick, and any other time she'd be trying to say she wouldn't want to expose them to my germs. She's a nurse, and a very anal-retentive, hyper-sensitive-to-germs paranoid type at that, and has chastised me in the past for taking our S's to venues where they have been exposed to and contracted the latest contagion. So, now she has no qualms about dumping them off onto someone she thinks of as an irresponsible temporary child caregiver, husband or not, who just came off of a feverous cold?
It really makes me wonder about her. Obviously she's all too ready to throw caution to the wind, hyper as it is, even for her own two sons. Of course, I can only think it must be that the OM is going to be there at the office too.
I don't really ever mind taking care of my S's -- I just don't like thinking W is trying to take unfair advantage of me, especially when she seems all to ready to stab me in the back with regards to our custody agreement.
The bottom line though is that if W is so gung-ho in leaving her children with someone she regards as irresponsible (I know its alien spew, but bear with me) and is potentially a contagious risk for her children's health, all to show up at the office supposedly and more likely to see the OM -- then I wonder what other risks she has taken that I should be concerned with.
Should I be concerned with getting a full STD panel? (It's been about 264 days now.) Or am I being paranoid now?
Should I be concerned with getting a full STD panel? (It's been about 264 days now.) Or am I being paranoid now?
Hang on there noco,
367 days here.......
but...... Vegas in 15 more days.....
Husband
Oh, another thing.
S7 was talking again today about W looking for a place out in the country, and that his mother was promising he could have a tree house and other niceties when they move away.
I didn't appreciate hearing my S7 glowing about his mother trying to relocate away from his father. W had said the other day she was looking for land to the east of the metro area, and was thus looking into school systems in those areas. I told W that she was not to be making such decisions unilaterally, that i have a say in it as well. But she ignores me. I have told W that a move eastward is not in my best interest, and that a move in any other direction would be preferable. W tries to claim it would be too expensive in any other direction, but that is utter B.S. -- she just wants to move to where she can be closer to the OM, and that's the fact.
So now she is going to my S's and trying to bribe them into loving the idea of moving away. I told S7 that his mother was not giving any consideration to his father and her sons' relationship with him. I let S7 know I was not happy with his mother continuing with her plan to put distance between me and my sons. S7 replied that W said I could also relocate east if I really wanted to be with S7 and S3. S7, in his innocence, does not understand all of the complications and buys into his mother's deceitful rationalization -- and so he just naturally thinks that I would find this a perfectly acceptable "solution" as well.
This is so unfair.
And all the while W just continues to push on with her plans, and has no regards for my say in anything. It has been this way since the bomb (and before that actually) -- even when she pretends to hear me out, she still continues right along, always resuming course at some point, towards her own single-minded selfish goals.
I would let her but for the fact that it involves the separation of me from our S's.
Yes, husband, I know... I'm still a rookie and you're due for a purple heart or something by now. LOL.
I just meant that I guess even though it's been 264 days I might still should be concerned about STD's -- given the distinct possibility that my W has been even more deceptive than she has been admitting about what has been going on. I really don't know how long their relationship has been going on, nor if or when it might have gone physical. What I do know is that W has a definite pathology for fabricating a justification for any action she might take, and that can be downright dangerous.
Hello, everyone,
I've been considering a lot of things lately. I am becoming more concerned with W's increasing denials about her actions and motives, and the revised story line she has been building up. I think I need more "intel". I have plenty of evidence about her activity last Spring and early Summer, but I have little to corroborate things following that time.
I have considered contacting the OMW. I have also considered contacting W's friend and co-worker (a very nice, Christian mother herself, who has always sent spiritually-oriented faith-based emails to W for years.)
Short of that, I am considering hiring a PI.
I am sensing that my W is getting loaded for bear, as she is being coached by her mother (a very battle-hardened WAW herself with three such "victories" under her belt). I also know W has been talking with a high-profile female lawyer who has a very anti-marriage, pro-divorce reputation.
I don't want to find myself entering a pitched fight without more preparation.
Any thoughts?
No Code-
Why the PI? Is NC a no fault state? You may be better off getting an attorney yourself.
Contacting the OMW is a tough one. It will most likely backfire and blow up in your face.
The co-worker will also be a dead end. You are trying to use logic to change your W's behavior. You cannot use logical behavior in an illogical situation.
Have yourself prepared for the worst and hope for the best..
NC is a no-fault state.
I am not so much interested in gathering more "intel" for the sake of the M, as I am in protecting myself and my relationship with my S's in a custody fight.
Nothing I have said or done in the last seven months have really averted my W from her course. Her original plan was to walk-away with my S's, take up residence with the OM east of this area, and replace me as my children's father. She was so convinced she knew my heart that she actually believed I would not only not fight her but welcome the splitting up of my family. When I proved to have a different heart on the matter, however, she merely regrouped, recalculated her course ever so much, but nevertheless re-plotted her course towards her goals.
W's anger over these intervening months has been with me because she sees me as her chief obstacle to her "chance for happiness." In the beginning she thought her only obstacle was time -- the state's required 12-month separation period before the granting of a D. But with me having stated my opposition to D and for the hope of rebuilding the M, her "waiting out the clock" has turned into a very infuriating ordeal for her.
Furthermore, with me no longer actively talking about saving the M, she still sees me not budging on remaining to be the father of our two S's and in a very active role. This too is being seen by her as a serious obstacle to her desires and goals, so her anger and hostility continue unabated.
I have to come to grips that my W is waging a covert war against me, and I cannot take this lying down anymore.
I am prepared to hire an atty. The one I last spoke with advised me that to thwart any claim to alimony it would be best that I had proof of the PA, although the circumstantial evidence is usually enough.
I really am feeling that in order to get my W to recognize she's just not going to cake-walk all over me, I need to be prepared to lower the boom on her, if it proves necessary. No, I cannot change her behavior, but I can do what I can to back her off some, for the sake of my kids.
Thanks, Mc.
<addendum>
I guess I may not be cut out for surviving this psychological warfare my W is waging on me. And I know that is what it really is,
psychological warfare.
For the second time in about two months, W has "accidentally" packed one of her pairs of underwear in with my S's clothes that I bring over each weekend. It's starting to really work on me, and she has to know this.
A little background: my W has always gravitated towards undergarments that she considers to be "modest" and "comfortable". She has always hated underwire bras and hates thin straps in anything. More importantly, she had major surgery on her pelvic bone when she was 19, and still suffers a serious scar above her left cheek and hip area below her waist, and it still to this day can cause her great pain such that she cannot abide much pressure there. As such she has always been adamantly opposed to wearing hip-huggers, bikini bottoms, or thigh-high briefs or anything like that for very long and certainly never for regular daywear. (Thongs are absolutely verbotten.)
(There was a time early in our marriage when she took me shopping for a new bathing suit, and she about read me the riot act for suggesting a nice two-piece. We have never seen eye-to-eye on that, and I refrained from ever getting involved in helping her pick out swimwear.)
For the last ten years or more, W's choice in panties were what I would call a highly unflattering type that even senior ladies might find too modest. Granny-panties for lack of a better term (no offense to anyone intended, BTW). But I didn't marry her for her sense of style anyway, so who cares, right?
Well, I've already encountered her new collection of underwire push-up bra's, and
now twice she has packed into my S's clothing, accident or not, an example of the everyday modern "girlie" bikini-style underwear she is apparently now wearing for everyday use. I know this must cut across her scar enough to irritate her, as she used to claim, but now it's all
okay? After all these years?!? WTH?!?
The last time I just silently put the panties back into the kids clothes I send back with the boys, with no mention of the incident. This time, however, I have felt like driving down there and throwing them in her face!
But then if this happens
not to have been an
accident, then all that would do would be to show her she's found yet another way to get under my skin.
So I'm
considering "accidentally" packing a pair of
my own underwear, a pair of silk boxers -- scented with some of my nicest new cologne -- in with some of the things I send back with the kids. That'll teach her!
...
Or... I could acquire a nice lace bra -- one with a larger cup size and smaller chest size than W's own dimensions -- and pack
that into the clothes I return!
Nocode, Buddy
Why return them?????
I would not say anything or do anything. It's like I used to tell my D's when they were young. the oldest would always do somehting to the younges just to get a reaction.. I finley talked the youngest to just ignore her and she will stop bucause it's not fun anymore....
I would just put them in a bag somewhere... Heck start a collection... Clothing is tax deductable at the salvation army...
Dr Love
I agree with Husband. Why return them? If she did pack them on purpose, it would be interesting to see if she says anything when she doesn't get them back.
Okay, Husband, Joie, you've both got a point...
Even if I do hang onto her panties (that didn't sound right, did it?) W will never say anything though -- she'll just get perturbed that she didn't get them back.
I guess I might even anticipate her also coming back over to my apartment again, when I'm not there, to ransack my place and recover her belongings -- and then try to pass it off as coming over to borrow another DVD for the boys (or some other such nonsense), just like the time she came over recently to retrieve that hideous stuffed bear toy named after the OM. <shudder>.
(If this keeps up I may need to start really thinking about some security for my place.)
Hey NCB - haven't read your whole sitch but I see some of my pals posting to ya so thought I would too!
Personally.. I think I'd toss the panties (the Salvation Army doesn't want used ones
). Not return them, not keep them, not escalate the stupid psych game she seems to be playing, just get rid of them. Like H said, it won't be fun anymore if you do that. Not to mention.. those things tend to be pricey. It will not only be "not fun," it will get expensive for her!
It's your apartment. Change the locks.
Thanks, Nik, feel free to post anytime. (I lurk over on your thread sometimes too.)
Well, for now, I just sealed this current "stowaway" up within a large ziplock bag -- along with a note in case the W snoops them out (which I would no longer put beyond her). The note basically calls her on her petty little mind-games. I'm storing this package in my linen closet for the time being, unless I think of something else.
Other than that, I need to ignore her as much as humanly possible and get all this crazy-making drama out of my life.
The question I have is -- if my W can find that off-switch controlling her love for me, why the heck can't I find the switch that shuts off my love for her?
Thanks NCB! Haven't been here since the beginning but I'll try to catch up.
Oh yeah - totally agree w/Sara, change the locks!!
I still think I'd just toss them (and the ziplock and the note).. seems like it's just more of that crazy-making drama waiting to happen.
Ohh yeah, that switch.. if ya find it you'll be a very rich man!! I think we're all looking for that one. It's like the Staples Easy button but it actually works.
It's your apartment. Change the locks.
I have contemplated this.
Primarily, I don't want to provoke my W into retaliating and changing the locks on our house. That's just not a battle I want to fight right at the moment.
Second, I gave W a key to my apartment in the beginning under the notion that we were going to work on our R/M; and that I wanted W to be able to access our S's in our place in case or an emergency. I was just thinking of this as a mere precaution.
Lastly, W wanted to be able to come over during the summer while I was at work to allow the children to swim in the pool here.
But then, it has been almost seven months now. And if W does file for D, I will definitely expect her to give me her key back -- in fact, I will
insist. In the mean time, however, if she continues to abuse this courtesy, I will have to take action sooner.
I think there is a difference in your ability to change the locks on the apartment and her ability to change the locks on a house that you one of the owners of. But anyway, I agree with NikB, throw the panties away and if she looks for them, tell her you didn't think they were hers so you threw them away.
I ditto what everyone said about the panties, don't even acknowledge them.
Who are these people? They aren't even remotely like the people we married, are they?
Ok can we stop talking about panties..... Please.....
Nocode, I understand the lock sitch. this is also why I don't change the access password to my lap top.. I to just don't want to go there. You could get some kind of safe or change the lock to the bed room or other room though.
H
Pin up the undies on your bulletin board in your apartment.
Ok, just teasin'....... But I would either 1) keep sending them back without a word or 2) throw them away every time. If this isn't an accident, its a pathetic mind game. And remember, you are above and beyond this. You are nocode, darnit. You are taking the right path. Don't follow her down her path. Don't.
We are in a no-fault state as well. The atty I spoke with though, said it can't hurt to have physical proof of an affair. It bears no weight in court (although most judges frown on infidelity), but it CAN be used as leverage in negotiation. For example, the atty told me that he could go to H's atty and say "Look, we have nasty proof of a lengthy affair, occurring sometimes in front of the children. I think lwb has been through enough. Instead of 50/50 on the house, why don't we talk 30% to H"....
nocode, glad you are feeling better.
Okay, thanks, all,
And, yes, no more about the @$#^&# panties. (It p*sses me off even more that she actually got to me with such a shallow ploy.)
<Update>
I had a great afternoon, yesterday, with my two S's at UNC where they we having the local Legopalooza event -- for Lego fans (plastic building brick toys, folks, not the brand of frozen waffles.) S7, as I've mentioned, is a real fanatic. And I recently joined the Yahoo group for NCLUG (North Carolina Lego Users Group) that held the event this weekend.
We also went last year to Legopalooza -- it was a bit different for us this year in that W was not with us. The boys didn't seem to notice though, although S7 also remembered that we also saw the "Magic Tree House" show in the Planetarium that day as well. My, how things change in such a short time.
Friday, W had also given me (aside from the afore-mentioned unmentionable) copies of her W2 and of her most recent paycheck stub. I think, given the actual numbers now, she's going to be amazed at the fact that the state formula for child support suggests my child support payment to her should be slightly less than half of what she originally expected me to pay. For that one reason alone (and there are several), I am soooooo very glad I never signed any of her Separation Agreements she tried to coerce me into signing.
Right now S3 is taking a much needed afternoon nap, and S7 is engrossed into -- you guessed it -- building Legos. I had managed to get him to write a nice page of five sentences this morning before church. It is apparently going to be a trying ordeal to get him to perform this particular task each time, but I hope with practice he will get more accustomed to it. Building a new Lego set is his reward for completing his work, even though he's currently tracked-out of school for now -- he's as happy as a lark now.
The Lego event sounds like a lot of fun!! I am fascinated by the crazy things that people build with Lego's.
Glad to hear the news on the finances, too - that must be a relief. Bet it will be a bit of a shock to your W.
Your W will not be pleased, as she is expecting to live just as she is now after a D. Good for you for holding your ground with the agreements she is wanting you to sign. No wonder she has been pushing, how sad.
HUGS Nocode......
As if I didn't need any more proof to convince me of my W having lost her mind, I have been trying for the life of me to figure out what has gotten into her tonight. W has allowed my 2 small boys to stay up tonight to watch the Super Bowl.
I cannot begin to tell you how other worldly and out-of-character this is for my W. In the 17 years I've know her, she has shown virtually no interest in the sport, and seemed to just pass it off as another mindless pastime. But as for professional sports, well, she has as shown as much contempt for the culture of modern pro sports as one can. And with regards to the Super Bowl, while she might have caught some of the game with me in the past, just to see some of the commercials, she wasn't that interested. But ever since the Janet Jackson incident back in '04, my W was adamant that our S's would never be exposed to the "degrading filth" that has infested pro sports.
Now, the same woman who has chastised me for keeping my S's up late on New Year's Eve, is now keeping them up late this very night to watch this sporting event? And this is the same woman who was prompted to write a letter of complaint to CBS and to the FCC saying she was supporting a boycott of the NFL and a fine against CBS Sports?
WTH?!??????
Only thing I can fathom is that the OM must be a football fan or something, 'cause this don't make any sense.
NC,
I didn't know you had a brother that lives in Little Rock. I'm about 40 minutes south of LR. If you decide to go we should seriously consider driving together from LR to Memphis.
Actually, to be exact, Yoyo, my brother and his family live in Sherwood. (They have lived there for almost 15 years now, and just built a new house.)
I may be giving him a call soon to see what he thinks about a rendezvous for this year's music fest. He'll insist (and so will his wife) that I have to bring my two S's if I do -- I don't know if W will be open to that.
(On the other hand if I fly to LR, then we might could all drive to Memphis from there.)
NCB,
I was reading about your W packing her "undies" in your S's bag. And how she has 'restyled" her wardrobe in regards to her undergarments.
U think your W is driving you nuts
My W has been buying all new lingerie (whole sets), matching G-strings with her lacy bra's, and hanging them up on the airer in our laundry (knowing that I use the laundry also). A more discreet method would be hanging them up in her ensuite, out of my sight.
So my plan of attack has been buying myself a whole new "Undie's" ensemble........with the latest entry being red cotton tight fitting boxers, with a red devil on the crotch........also one with a playboy bunny and one with a superman logo on it. I have started to use the same airer as hers
Score 1 - 1
AndyV
LOL.
There are Pro's and Con's for either living arrangement -- whether separated
or staying in the same place.
Sounds like you've figured out a way to handle a psych-war while being under the same roof.
NCB,
I am the master of "Domestic Guerrilla Warfare"
I think I may publish a book and add it to the DB series.
AndyV
So my plan of attack has been buying myself a whole new "Undie's" ensemble........with the latest entry being red cotton tight fitting boxers, with a red devil on the crotch........also one with a playboy bunny and one with a superman logo on it. I have started to use the same airer as hers
Score 1 - 1
AndyV
Andy- I LOVE IT! Good for you! How unfair for her to flaunt those things. I was answering my work like when I was reading this and nearly burst out laughing on the phone.
SueS
Great minds tend to think alike. Heh, heh.
I don't plan to act on the idea of sending back my own "message", but it is still fun to think about.
<we need a devilish grin smiley/emoticon>
"Domestic Guerrilla Warfare"
LOL!!! Battles of the panties........
But its sad why its all happening though....ugh
Nocode, don't try to figure her out (Super Bowl thing). It'll just exhaust you. My thought is its the OM thing....blecky.
Hey Nocode,
this is one of the fisrt things I did. (ask yoyo and Saffie) I went out and bought new underware..... Man Panties.... Hey they are really comfortable... kept my old ones for doctor visits though.....
My W still washes my clothes ( now she has put her panties in my draw once but I think it was truly a mistake, not sure how becasue mine are smaller......
It's good to be king....
Dr Love
Lwb,
Tonight the football thing got even more bizarre. I've been making plans for S7 to enter Cub Scouts this Spring. W tried to tell me tonight that S7 had decided he'd rather do the local flag football program instead of Scouts.
Surprised, I paused after she said this, then I related to her what S7 had said to me just the day before. S7 had lamented skipping soccer this past season, and that was when I began to query him on what he was really interested in doing this year -- either a sport like soccer or football, or karate, or maybe something like scouts. I told him we were already doing the Lego user group, and he could choose another activity. In the end he said he wanted to try Cub Scouts this year, mainly because he's still interested in going camping.
W was a bit taken back. I started to ask her whether S7 had changed his mind for some reason, and if so what brought that about, but W backed down immediately and said okay. I got the curious impression she was not pushing what she claimed S7 said because maybe it wasn't quite so.
This is twice now W's mentioned S7 and football. She has started looking into this without consulting me first, and that is a problem, especially since she is proposing a pastime for S7 that is going to involve some of my weekend custody.
If I were a betting man I'd lay odds OM is part of this.
The infamous "man-panties", huh? You sly dog.
Okay, spying is not good. But I think it is time I hire a PI.
I just can't stand still and watch my W lie to my face while she continues with her plans to replace me as my S's father. W swears there is no PA and that they're just friends, and tells me there is no chance therefore that she would ever remarry or have another father-figure in my S's lives. She won't even acknowledge the EA.
She doesn't know the extent of the evidence I have against her on the EA. And something just came up that urges me to get intel on the PA. So I have asked a paralegal friend for a referral on a PI.
Are you in a state where they care about infidelity?? (I know most don't but a few actually do).
If not, I think you're just hurting yourself obsessing over the A.
I think Nocode is obsessing (with due right) about his sons and their emotional well being. We all have obsessed about the A from time to time (I am waving here!!), and it can still pop up and hurt us especially when we are being told its not happening when clearly it still is.
I think nocode has shifted his focus to the boys, and not wanting them exposed to anything negative, not wanting to be 'replaced' as a father, not wanting them used as pawns, not wanting poison spewed into those innocent ears. I believe the PI is basically for his sons' sake, not to save his M.
NikB, I hope I didn't offend you at all.
Hi, Nik,
No, NC is no-fault as far as D goes. The evidence would not have any direct bearing on the D settlement, and I don't expect it will change W's actions with regards to the A, but I believe it will have sway on getting my WAW to back down on the custody situation. She's been in the denial mode for so long now that she takes the opposite extreme, blaming me entirely for the harm being done to our family.
I feel I need to build a case now for what I call the "nuclear option". I need to arm myself with enough intel on the PA, for the sake of my relationship with my S's. I really don't want to have to launch this mutually destructive option, but if my W keeps progressing in the direction she's headed, which is to move away with the OM and take my S's one or more hours away, she will thus effectively negate my demand for joint physical custody (50-50). W continues to ignore me when I tell her she really needs to make sure that I, as our S's father, am (at least) included in any such decision regarding our children. But she just continues right along with her "dream" plans.
This could get pretty ugly and I don't want to go there, but having the option beats not having the option.
lwb - not at all! I've done my own share of obsessing about it, believe me.
NCB
Hmm.. I hope you're right. Your W is acting SO illogically that I wonder if having "evidence" of the PA will make any difference in her behavior anyway (if the courts there don't care... I know they don't around here unless the OP is a danger to the kids.. makes me sick). If there's a chance that the courts will actually care it may be worthwhile though.
I hope you're keeping track of the times your W voluntarily brings the kids over - definitely helps dispute any claims that she thinks you're an "unfit" parent.
On the custody - does your state favor the 50/50 arrangement? I hope so!! Can you put a mileage "limit" into the sep/D agreement? I know I've seen that around here before (not just "across state lines," but rules about the city and/or school district that the kids have to remain in).
Thanks, Lwb,
Yes, you see it correctly.
This action will likely be very damaging to my hopes of saving my M, maybe even putting the final nail in its coffin, I realize that.
But weighed against the interests of my S's, I have to come down on the side of my S's before that of my M. The sad truth is that my S's are facing the loss of their family; that's bad enough -- they don't need to also suffer the loss of their father too.
And, yes, Nik, I can see that I am obsessing.
NCB - understandable, it's easy to do!
I'm just thinking, it makes sense to be sure that the time/effort/energy actually WILL do anything to help your case with your S's. Will having evidence about the A do anything (legally speaking) for your custody case?
Apologies if you mentioned this before - I've read through some of your older posts but not all of them. Have you talked to your L about the best things to do to help ensure you get 50% custody? (besides, of course, continuing to be the best Dad you can be!)
Will having evidence about the A do anything (legally speaking) for your custody case?
Legally, no -- not for a D at least. But then there is the fact that this state still has laws against Alienation of Affection and against Criminal Conversation. They're long-shots now-of-days, but still something to consider. Will my WAW risk a "criminal" record in her attempt to push me out of our S's lives? Will she risk financial ruin?
Nocodes,
You need to do what you think is best. If I were you I would be doing the same thing. You have to try and protect yourself and your boys..
As far as her risking these things, who knows, in the state of mind she's in anything is possible, and they are not thinking clearly.
tal
But then there is the fact that this state still has laws against Alienation of Affection and against Criminal Conversation.
Ahh good to know - sounds like you might have at least some faint chance of the "proof" helping your custody case.
I remember looking up some laws in one state and you could actually (successfully, even lately) sue the OP. I was really surprised! In a lot of ways I bet that threat is even more effective.. too bad that option's not available everywhere.
NC,
I just wanted to share a little info with you that happened in my situation. The H of the OW hired a PI to trail my H and his wife.
He started the investigation in November and shared his finding with me in January. I had never talked to him before. I suspected that my H and his W were having an affair (boss/secretary), but this was confirmed by him then.
He spent endless hours with the PI gathering info in hopes of using it for custody. He had video of my H spending the night with her while the son was there. He had video for several months to show it was ongoing. Days before the hearing the OW's H's attorney told her attorney that they had this evidence. So during the hearing she had no alternative than other to admit to the affair and yes, they had sex in the room right across the hall from her son. Unfortunately, this had little or no bearing on the outcome of the hearing. She still got primary custody of the son with her XH getting him on the weekends.
She now likes to throw it up in her XH's face that he spent all of that money on the PI and it didn't do him any good. Yes, she is such a sweetheart.
Well, I have a few choice words I would used to describe her but I'm going to be a lady and refrain.
In a lot of ways I bet that threat is even more effective.. too bad that option's not available everywhere. \:\)
Nik, it used to be the norm that every state had laws against adultery and had policies promoting M and the family. Not any longer. Not since the No-fault Divorce movement.
At the risk of sounding like a political cynic (What,
me? No way), you have to remember that politicians are the ones who make the laws, and they're often the ones in this case who don't like little inconveniences like the sanctity of marriage to get in their ways.
Yoyo, thanks for that. I do realize this might be a bust for me, but then if I
don't do this and my W is successful in alienating me from my S's, then I will at least have solid proof to show my boys, some day maybe if they're ready and wanting to know why their lives were turned upside down, just what I have been up against. To be honest, I wouldn't really feel right about destroying their trust in their mother, but she's already doing that now while taking steps to harm their bond with me.
Wow, just took a blow to the gut...
W sent an email that just takes the wind out of me. I can't believe it. Here's what she wrote:
NCB,
Ever since your episode of slamming doors & yelling & pointing your finger in my mom's face & blaming her for our breakup S7 has been very upset. We asked him what was bothering him & he said a lot of thing. He said Daddy said: "MIL broke up 3 marriages & she's Mommy's cheerleader & she whispers things in Mommy's ears......" These are your hateful words spewing from your son's mouth. Also he built the Mack lego truck & put a satellite dish on it & said "Daddy would hate this" "He hates satellite" He hates Diego too...." I had to explain to him that all this hatefulness is a big part of why I can't live with Daddy" I want our house to be full of love & peace. S7 is smart. He sees & feels the difference. He & S3 both noticed that you hate a stuffed bear just because his name is OM. It's from a book. OM is my friend & co-worker. He is not a part of the kids life. I don't think I can trust anyone again. So I have no intention to remarry. Whether you believe that or not is irrelevant, but you should not poison the kids brain against me, their grandmother, the name "OM", Hispanics, satellite dishes, people who use pc's, liberals........the list of things you hate is very long & S7 can name them all. Last time I checked Jesus was all about love........ Your hatefulness preceded my mom, she's just helping to make sure the kids have a stable loving caregiver while I make sure they have a roof over their head & food to eat & all the love they need. If Mom wasn't here I would utilize the YMCA just like a bunch of other parents. S7 has actually expressed an interest in that service. It's more expensive but doable.
Thanks,
WAW
I am flabbergasted and continue to be amazed at how horrible a person my W and MIL make me out to be. Now I am a
racist? Now I am a hate-filled person and a bigot? (All I've ever said is that I disprove of some of the things her mother allows our kids to watch on TV, that's it.)
How do you answer something so insane? Accusations so off-the-wall as to be in the Twilight Zone?
I am really, really worried about my sons even more now.
I had to explain to him that all this hatefulness is a big part of why I can't live with Daddy
Here, she is yelling at you about spewing to your sons, but she finds THAT ok to say to your son???? She is really losing it. How are you planning on responding (if you even do, might not be worth it).
You gave me hugs earlier, I am handing 'em back to you no code......
My mind is just reeling -- what should I do? Do I send a response? Do I call her? Or is there even a response at all to something so... so... crazy?
(I also feel desperate to get to a talk in with S7 about this, to assuage any anxiety he might be feeling from whatever this is.)
I would definately sit on it tonight nocode. You are too upset to be rational with an irrational woman. You need a good night's sleep, my friend.
When do you see S7 next?
I agree completely with lwb. Sit tight for now.
When you do speak to your son, make sure it is all about love and reassurance. If anything your W is saying is true, he needs to know how YOU feel about HIM. I would recommend staying away from discussing anything with him about W and MIL at this point. IMO.
NCB,
Tough night....sorry.....
From my experience these types of comments, accusations, character assassination is done by your WAW to make her feel better about what she is doing. She needs to justify what is going on to herself and anyone else that will listen......
My suggestion is this...do nothing..... No matter how badly you want to defend yourself against outbursts like this don't.. They will do you no good. Now I am not telling you to be a doormat, but, getting into an argument from this is just not worth it.
NCB, just keep being a solid Dad to your boys... Don't degrade your W in front of them...heck don't even talk about the A around them.. Just keep being the solid Dad that you are to your boys... In time they will know the truth. They are watching you.....
Again sorry that she still feels the need to attack you like this...
Stay Strong,
Scott
Thanks, everyone. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to offer their support and advice. You guys are so great.
Unfortunately, I didn't have a chance to read your responses (I have been out of town on business) before talking to my W this morning via mobile phone. We again had a bad R talk. I should know better -- she won't listen and forms her own opinions about me without bothering to ask me.
Still, I wish there was some way, some how, she would understand that she and I really need to work together for the sake of our sons. The M aside, she needs to realize that what's best for our S's is that their parents work together, with no belligerence, whether we are married or not.
I wrote a response but did not send it -- I was giving it the 48 hour rule, but it is likely a moot point now.
I want to convince her she and I need to seek some form of counseling, to work to repair our strained relationship, for no other reason than making peace for our children's sake.
But I guess W fears that any success, however small or sleight, in mending this train wreck will only be evidence that we could do the same for our M as well -- and she is dead-set against that. No room for compromise in her book.
I know that MIL is an agitator, of that I have no doubt. But it really rests with W.
This scorched earth policy is going to be very damaging to my S's. Why can't she see that?
Hey Nocode,
Wow, just caught up. Sorry you're having to deal with all this! It's bad enough the hurt she's putting you through but to pull your sons into it like that.. makes me really sad.
I think any "convincing" or "making her understand" you attempt is probably going to continue to backfire.. but just a thought. Maybe you can set up a counseling session for yourself with the intent that it's to discuss parenting during a D. Then let her know that you are going and she's welcome to come if she'd like to? Maybe even do this via a polite, business-like email so that she doesn't have the chance to twist anything around on you. I know she probably won't go, but I'm thinking if you set it up that way where you're going either way and it's TOTALLY about the parenting aspect, NOTHING about an R between you two (even as friendly coparents), maybe there's a chance she'd go for it??
If you end up going by yourself maybe the C will have some good ideas for how to discuss all this with your S. If she shows up, I'm sure the C will make the point about a civil R between you being important, and it might be better received than the same message coming from you.
And in either case, I'm thinking it would help you chalk up some additional "good Dad" points for the courts..
Thanks, Nik, that's a great idea, arranging for a C and letting W have the option of accompanying me.
Tonight, I got another taste of how difficult my W is getting to be. When one parent has the kids, the other parent calls them in the morning and again in the evening -- to say Good Morning and to say Good Night. That's been our unwritten practice since the sep began in July.
Background: S7 has ADHD like issues due to his sensory-integration problems (SID), such that he easily gets distracted. The problem arises in this case when one of us calls while S7 (and to lesser extent S3) is preoccupied by something, most often the television. It becomes next to impossible to get their attention, let alone have a conversation with them at such times. This tends to be one of W's pet peeves -- when she calls to talk to the boys, she insists that the television or other entertainment be paused or muted. I have been very careful to either silence or freeze the TV or music when anyone calls, for several months now. I've taken great care to consider her wishes.
Well, tonight W put S7 and S3 each on speakerphone to talk to me when I called tonight. They were both engrossed in some show and neither of them were very responsive in my communications to them. I kept asking, "Hello? Is anyone there? Speak to me." And all I would get were dazed one-word replies. It was useless -- I know that W was there with them, but she just would not halt the distraction so they could talk to me intelligibly. Instead, I could hear her in the background telling them to tell me good night.
If I were to do anything like that, she would never let me live it down. She would scream at me that I am harming her relationship with our sons. But she has no problem when it is me trying unsuccessfully to talk to my sons; this is now the second time in the same number of weeks, to my recollection, that this has happened. It's just so wrong.
I feel like giving up sometimes.
Hey nocode,
Sorry to hear what you are going through..Hearing things like tha make me feel like a whiner going through the crap I am.
Do your best to stay strong for your son's... Someday they will understand..
Husband
Blue,
As much as possible make all communication with her written so that you can document what you said. And say very little. "I don't know what you are talking about." and "I think we should go to counseling for the sake of the children." would be enough. She seems to be wrestling with an invisible opponent who she calls you. Doesn't mean you are really there doing it.
And all I would get were dazed one-word replies. It was useless -- I know that W was there with them, but she just would not halt the distraction so they could talk to me intelligibly.
This happens to me at times when the girls call me at work to tell me goodnight. It drives me CRAZY when I am having to say "Hello? Anyone there??" and I know H can hear me. It depends on HIS mood how well the phone call goes. I have yet to say a word to him about it, but wanted you to know I have been there, done that and do NOT want the t-shirt.
Maybe a quick email to W with short statements like "Its hard for the kids to see us so distant/divided. Maybe we can think about some sort of co-parenting counseling for their sake".
Thanks, Sara, Lwb,
I sent W a very brief email reply this morning, simply asking her to consider going to counseling with me.
I have not received a reply as yet, but I went ahead and scheduled an appointment for next Friday with a psychologist who specializes in family/marital issues involving children and divorce and separation. He's CBT oriented. I spoke briefly with him by phone, and he seems willing to help, but he has reservations about whether I can get my W to agree to come along. But we both agreed it was worth a try for the sake of the children. I intend to go to the first session alone if need be.
Hey No Code, keep trying. Your sons are worth your efforts. Don't allow the W to sidetrack. You are doing great. I'll keep my fingers crossed that she will go.
Thanks, Luv,
W got too impatient with waiting for me arriving at our residence, and took our kids to meet me at my apartment. I met her there and then asked her about the C. She turned me down flat, said absolutely not, that she didn't need any help in co-parenting our S's, but I could certainly go. She said she didn't have time for yet another appointment, and also said she just can't stand being around me.
No, she doesn't want to try. No, she doesn't believe we could ever get along, or ever agree. She accused me of trying yet another means of getting her to agree with me, like it's some sort of contest or something.
She was really nasty, and even tried to put me down. Made some b*tchy remark about my jacket even.
I tried to reason with her, but it was no use. Nothing, absolutely nothing I say or do, no matter what approach I take, 180 degrees, 360 degrees, whatever, she is so set in her propagandized mindset that I will be seen as wrong. She hates everything about me now.
I give up. DB'ing just doesn't work with her.
Right, DBing doesn't work with her. But she is wrong. To get divorced you go before the judge. And the judge judges. He will see through her like saran wrap. You document your niceness and your consideration of your children. You go to the counseling on your own. Send her a polite email giving her the dates and times of counseling and ask her to attend. Hopefully she will answer via email too. It would be lovely if she put her true sentiments on paper. These things will be noted.
Oh man. Sorry.
PS: I thought of your S3 today, carrying his big 'load' out during the electronics 'incident' at your house. D3 today was helping me carrying stuff out to my car (not relating to moving out). It made me so sad, because my D3 was so very proud to help, just like your son. That's what made me think of you today. You are an amazing father, and its sad that everyone but the mother of your children see this.
Keep the appt. Go on your own.
Thanks for the support, everyone.
I have to face the facts. My M is over.
For nearly 8 months now, since that horrible day I discovered that the love of my life was untrue, and that my dark life was even worse than I could ever imagine, I have tried to be as accommodating and diplomatic as I can be given the outrageousness of the situation. I have made a good faith effort to do whatever necessary to help us all though this, and I also made a lot of mistakes too.
I tried being a friend. I tried doing things for her. I tried going dark. I tried complementing her. I tried ignoring her. I tried taking all the blame. I tried standing my ground. I tried agreeing with her. I tried defending my position. I tried making the peace. I tried stirring the pot.
Nothing worked. "Baby steps" in this case meant maybe a slowing of her pace away from me, but never reversing it. But even then, it was always short-lived. She always re-plots her course and keeps on towards her goal. I have never known her to be quite this tenacious.
She at first blamed our difficulties on how she claims I treated her. But then, once I was no longer trying to actively defend the M, she changed the blame to be based on how I treated our S's. Suddenly I went from defending myself from accusations of being a bad husband, to defending myself from being called a bad father.
And she claims I have been lying about her being involved with the OM. That she and he are "just good friends" and co-workers. Nothing more. Instead she says that there is no adultery and that all the problems in our M rest with me.
Well, I hired a PI. Earlier this week I found out my W had set up reservations in her name, for tonight and tomorrow night, in a fancy downtown hotel. After I met her to get the kids, the PI tailed her to the hotel and got enough evidence on her and the OM that I can now say I have zero trust of this woman from now on.
I cannot trust anything she says anymore. She lies to my face and acts like she's as clean as the wind-driven snow. And while I am tending our children (though she claims I am a bad father), she's having an adulterous rendezvous with the "friend" she has denied being involved with, even emotionally.
Why the pretense? Why lie? It's bad enough as it is, but why insult my intelligence too?
((((NoCode)))
I know you suspected it but sorry you finally got/saw the truth. Hurts a lot, I know.
She's not likely to tell the truth, now or ever.. why?? Dunno, just how the whole "cheat on your spouse" thing I guess. I'm really sorry.
Hi Blue,
Ok, so you knew it. And now you know it at an even deeper level. It had to be. The driving force is almost always a sexual relationship.
But really, Blue, from what you've told us about her, you're the lucky one -- you are getting away from a he!!cat. I feel sorry for the guy. He doesn't know what he's getting into. He is going to feel the brunt of her fury next. I'd say wrap her up in a bow and give her to him!
((((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I a so sorry Nocode. In the long run you and the boys will be better off without her interfering in your R. Once the D is through hopefully her attitude to you will improve vis a vis the boys.
Oh no code my Dbing is not working either - sometimes we are just up against a brick wall - everyone says one day they will be sorry - our spouses - but not mine or yours right now - I fear in your sit and mine they will be sorry when it is too late - you sound like a loving father and you have tried everything - my heart is with you - Ive went back and read your whole story - sounds like you have been through hell as alot of us have - sorry about finding the truth about the A. Thats another dagger in the heart even if you suspected it. Thinking of you - hang in there - her A wont last with him - thats what Ive been told about my Hs affair - they never do - its a fantasy
Friends,
I appreciate and admire all of you so very much for standing for your M. I thank all of you for your support and understanding, the kind words, the wise advice. I don't know how I could have made it without you and all the others I've met since this ordeal began. The Lord God has blessed me in this time of woe by putting good, kind people like you on my path.
The Sun still came up this morning. Life will go on. I know where I stand in this great big world. Time to keep moving forward.
I definitely jumped the DB'ing rails this morning. My two S's are always up at the crack of dawn. I called the hotel room where W is staying with OM. W picked up the phone and said, "Hello?"
I said absolutely nothing -- I turned the speakerphone on and gave it to S7 and S3. My two boys know nothing of what is going on, so they greeted their mother and wished her a good morning. They tried to engage her in the typical words they exchange at these times, what they're doing, that they love her, to have a good day today -- as if nothing was unusual.
W was calm, maintained her cool demeanor quite admirably (I must say), but she kept telling each of our S's that she loved them, and kept repeating it to them. I still said nothing (don't feel I can now talk to her ever again at this point) and let S7 hang up the phone.
With no word from me, I know I got my message across. She will interpret it to suit her warped mindset; I expect that. But she now knows that I know.
I have cried quietly this morning. Passed my sniffle off as the lingering effects of my cold when S7 looked at me. Lots of hug therapy today.
Keep moving forward.
Bold move. And brilliant, in my mind. You are not stupid, you will not be lied to. I agree, why the pretense?? Why the lies? I think you did the right thing.
Nocode, you have done everything right. You are strong, and yes, the sun will rise every single day and you will always be a father. And possibly a husband to someone else who will cherish loyalty.
HUGS I am thinking of you today. Cry and let your emotions come and go. No need to stuff them inside.
NoCode,
Holy cow, she's been busted big time! Beware, her attitude may get even worse!
I just don't get these WAS and their 'how great I am' attitudes, their blame shifting, harboring of ill feelings, etc. All these ill-feelings and bad attitudes are so counter-productive. Why can't they see that?
I think getting counseling for the sake of the children is a great idea. You still have to be parents no matter what. She's not even willing to do that!? But just as it takes two to determine the marriage dynamic, it takes two to make a good -- or bad -- divorce. Is that what she really wants?
(((HUGS))) -- you can't say you didn't try. You're right up there with LWB in the DBing your butt off category. Take care of yourself this weekend. It's time to focus on you and your sons.
Joie
NoCode, I am so sorry for you. I don't understand the lying or why your W would not want to go to counseling for her own children. My children, btw, also have Sensory Integration problems as well, so I know how tough that can be. Counseling sounds like a great idea! I think some of our spouses seem like they just are on a very destructive path obviously. Karen43