What can I do differently?

[Pattnee5]

Hi MamaG, I haven’t been posting much the last few months as life is busy as a single mum but read your post and thought I should at least give you my experience. I’m 16 months in since BD. I had no idea about any of MlC stuff until I came on this forum and heard wise words from DnJ. I remember he even said “ i hope for your sake it’s not a mlc because that’s a true marathon”. Well turns out it was. He hid the affair partner and blamed me for a whole year before I stumbled on camera footage. He said they were just friends. He spent all of 2023 miserable drinking alot,saying the most hurtful disgraceful things, monstering at me constantly. He became a version I have never in my life witnessed. A bit of a clinging boomerang but never really getting anywhere. And I was sucked into his vortex of negative miserable energy. I did pretty good GaL to be honest. I still was kind invited him places included him where I could. I think the affair fizzled but he admitted to me a day before he left the country that it was a physical affair. I think it was all done and dusted but I feel his sister is his “MLC mentor” safe to say she probably had one and is telling him to get lawyers and find someone else to love etc etc. they will find people who will say stuff to justify them.
What I have learnt is everything they say is garbage and projected blame at us is their guilt and shame that’s internally destroying them. My H decided in Sept last year to take a job contract on the other side of the world. He has been gone since January and as the months go his contact has dwindled more and more with me and the kids. This man used to be the most amazing father. Always there for his family, loved his kids, never would have left them, never would have ended us so easily without working problems out. Now he’s basically run away. Doesn’t even ask how we are managing ( I work two jobs, and run two teenage kids everywhere) he has gone really bad with money and I thought he would support his kids but he’s gone the opposite. It truly is like an alien has abducted him and put in place the most broken, mean miserable man I’ve ever encountered. And I’ve copped the absolute brunt of everything. I do still hope he gets himself through his crisis. I recently took the kids to see him and it was then I realised how bad he was. He had gone there for an amazing happy life and it seems he is further in the hole. I would say he’s dancing between withdrawal and depression right now. His energy and mood the whole trip was depleting to the point where my kids made comments and noticed. He constantly said “ I’m old I’m fat” etc. the hardest part is you want to help them, and you can’t. They push us so far away the ones that love them the most and so unconditional , and wear a mask for everyone else and keep up a fake facade. But behind all of that mask is so much pain and turmoil. Keep reading keep learning. Nothing is linear. Never have expectations because they can say something to raise your hopes then squash them. My H ticked the final MlC box of the “ fancy sportcar” that he’s considering buying. A “ boy muscle Car” as he called it. The same man that used to hate those sort of cars and said they are depreciating assets and it’s something to get you from A to B is now wanting one. The same man who absolutely made so much fun of his sister years ago when she bought this fancy sports car 🤣 if your H is truly in MLC I am so so sorry but strap in for a long bumpy ride. All I can say is forget about them and what they say and what they do. As hard as life is as a single parent full time and juggling everything I wouldn’t have it any other way and I would hate to be in H shoes. I have my health I have my kids and we genuinely are happy and doing stuff to stay happy. Sure there are days that suck there are days I still cry and miss my best friend and my soulmate but I know right now the man in that body is not the one I am missing. The man in that body is going through some sort of mental crisis and the only way through is to keep everyone else out.
Get out and do as much stuff and stay positive. Be the lighthouse be the safe space. If they need us they know where to find us. Unfortunately my H hasn’t opened up about much now that he has gone completely into silent mode. But I trust he will eventually. I know one day he will drag himself out of this. I tried to minimise as much damage with the kids but it got to the point where he has hurt them so much that I can’t stop that anymore. The damage they don’t see until the fog lifts. And it’s their damage to fix. Stay strong and look after you and only you. My H was like yours last year. Hugs admiration for the kids, moments and glimmers of hope. I know his love is still there it’s just buried deep behind his turmoil. There were times he would even kiss me and then you could almost see the wall go straight up and the alien appear. Now he’s on the other side of the globe practically silent and pretending like we don’t exist. Whatever your H path is just let him take it. Zero pressure. You just be the safe lighthouse you just keep shining your light and leave him be the ship in the storm. He has to navigate this one on his own. There’s nothing we can do to help them through. I learn that the hard way always trying to help him.
What I will say is I do have faith my H will get himself through. I just can’t put my life on hold while he does. When they emerge they can never remember much and have lost so much time. Our life isn’t forever. Make the most of every day. Be grateful for the little things around you. Work on you. I can honestly say I am loving the person I have become through this and the person I am becoming. Deep down I think H notices and loves it too he just can’t see forest for the trees because he’s buried in such an incredible fog that he doesn’t know which way is up or down.
I’ll try and check back in when I get a moment but keep going! You’re doing great

[Pattnee5]

Oh one last thing. If he blames you it’s never about you. It’s never about us this whole MlC. It’s always been about something in their childhood or teen or their own years that they have buried and stuffed down that is coming to the surface to be dealt with. There’s so many amazing old posts in these forums which helped me understand and accept this. H blamed me for anything and everything.Even as far as not putting my plate in the dishwasher some mornings when I was rushing off to work. But it’s never us. It’s always them. It’s their time to emotionally mature and grow and deal with those issues from their past that they have ignored. Seeing the bigger picture now I can see patterns in my H sister of MLc behaviour. Multiple divorces, sports car, running behaviour, bouncing from man to man never happy or satisfied( and now mentoring her little brother to do the same). It really is a horrible time but trust the man you once knew is still in there and he had the tools to dig his way out 😘

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG (and Pattnee )

Pattnee is one of many wise posters around here. She’s been through the wringer and emerged pretty darn awesome methinks.

(Hi Pat. Oh my, he’s looking to buy a sports car. Yep, another box ticked on the list.)

I read your responses several times and each time, I get something new out of it. I'm not questioning you and your experience, but rather whether MLC really is real. And, how can this be?
It's surreal to have a perfectly sane man became a stranger who leaves an entire well-established family and life behind. Just somebody wake me up from this nightmare.

Yes, it’s surreal. An entire world and experience completely hidden away from us, until one is thrust into it. I had no idea, was blissfully unaware, that this horrible MLC even existed. It challenges our other preconceived notions of what we assuredly know.

As I said before, you are doing fine. Rationalizing and understand takes time.

For what it’s worth, you don’t wake up from this nightmare, you wake up to this nightmare. And in doing so, the nightmare looses its power over you. The fear, pain, doubt, etc, all become understood and accepted. The nightmare is H’s, not your’s.

I wonder if I'm doing some running myself. I distract myself to the extent I can, but don't find myself reflecting on what worked/didn't work in our marriage. Not that I'm looking to own his crisis, but I certainly should and can own my repsonses/actions over the last 32 years that may have reinforced his crisis. When I find myself alone with my thoughts, I consume the hours with readings on DB, Hero Spouse, etc. instead of understanding my tears and frustrations. How do I own up to my end of healing? What questions can I think through why I cry?

The simple act of realizing and asking the above, illustrates you are not running.

Yes, we all distract ourselves at the begining. We have to. There is just too much to handle all at once. Yet, fear not. Your mind is still churning away.

We focus on ourselves. We get a life. We control what we can - our thoughts, actions, and reactions. We purposefully direct our conscious mind to efforts and tasks. Meanwhile, our subconscious mind churns away. Slowly mulling things over. Questions arise, new information is sought, old and new information is pondered, more answers come.

We cannot directly control our subconscious mind. However, we do interact with it. How we think, what we do, has an affect. Distracting, or more accurately, focusing on self, allows our deep self to heal and find our answers.

Answers do present themselves when we are calm. Calming our conscious self, calms our subconscious self.

Running is frantic, energetic without a heading. Focusing is the opposite of that.

To own your healing: Follow the sting. Dig into what hurts. Hold yourself accountable for your part. Only your part! We all make and made mistakes. Afterall, we only had a few tools in our toolbox back then. Grow, heal, and move forward. Become MamaG2.0.

Should I tell him that I'm going to visit with his aunt? Should I tell him that I'm flying across the country? Do I owe him that much?

H was at the doctor appountment and heard about your trip. He hasn’t ask you anything. I’d leave it be. Don’t initiate telling him. And no, you do not owe him that much. He fired you as wife, let him feel the loss.

Be kind and cordial, and focus on you. Live and love your life!

H's words brought me back to when we were dating and didn't live together. I know I've heard that line before and with that excitement/stress/tone. I immediately attributed it to him regressing to teenage years. Is that how you see time travel?

Yes, that is time travel. (That was a mild demonstration from him.)

Kind of weird, and interesting, how H has recreated you and he not living together. Like when he was a teenager.

Mentally, emotionally, H is/was back in time. For that conversation H felt like a teenager. Thought like his teenage self. Not the responsibilities of his present older self and life. That is how they run. Trying to escape themselves. Trying to relive, and grow up, from when they were emotionally stunted.

he told them that H is prepared to lose them in the divorce bc H needs to look out for himself.

That is a big indicator of a crisis. Healthy people, adults, parents, do not toss away their kids.

A teenage H, well he ain’t married, and has no kids. That time travel really twists them up. H’s empathy chip is broken. Pretty common for a MLCer, BTW.

I've read that the dogs, kids, spouse, marriage are the last ones H will return to (and in that order). Could H be coming around and on the back half of the crisis? Do I have the order right?

If they reconnect, it is in the opposite order that they tossed folks aside. From the least they hurt and blamed to who they most did. As such, the spouse is usually last. The order makes sense, pets are pretty non-judgemental. Reconnecting would have little fear, as there is no judgment from a dog.

Some only reconnect part way. Maybe pets. Maybe kids.

Is H on the back end of a crisis? Likely not. A rule of thumb, if you have to ask, then likely not. Replay/running is a long stage. And it is confusing. If you are unsure of where/when H is, he is likely running.

When, if, H exits running/replay - you will know. There will be no doubts. Exiting replay means H has stopped running and is facing all he has done, and what was done to him long ago. The withdrawal and depression is deep and staggering.

Is H making progress? Yes, I believe so.

Remember, a hallmark of a crisis is confusion. H is not always some teenage version of himself. He bounces around. Back and forth. Emotionally driven. His at the moment state is derived by how he feels at that moment. As such, sometimes, old H will flash by. And be buried again.

An experience from my XW and situation: I thought she was reconnecting with the kids a while ago. She had reached out. Was even friendly with them. I thought, hmm perhaps.

Time will tell the tale.

Turns out, no. She was attempting to coerce and pull the kids to her way of thinking/feeling. She even went to their house, and blasted them. Told them they were wrong and OM is a wonderful guy.

And time travel is mixed in too. Seven years have past since bomb drop. Kids have jobs, houses, spouses, etc. They are not the teens in school she tossed aside. Though, in her mind, when she surfaces, they are.

Speaking of time travel, XW recalls details from the past like it is today. She even asked my kids about my blue Ford LTD with zebra stripped seats. lol. That’s from almost four decades ago. Back when her and I were dating. Imagine how consuming and confusing it would be to have that swirling around in your head, while trying to deal with the present day.

To me, H’s interactions with the kids, is a mixture of a few things. H peaking out of the tunnel; a temp check; a teenager mentality connecting/trying to be friends (instead of being a parent); and confused H/Dad unsure how to express his feelings.

And lastly, how possible is it that H's EA is a guy-friend whom he considers a brother? H talks and texts with him daily and has since BD#1. They grew up together, work together, hang out with their weed.... To my knowledge, he still has no other EA nor PA going on. I don't have it in me to snoop so I may never know either. How common or likely is it that his EA is a good friend?

Good on not snooping.

An emotional affair. It is possible. Affairs are a reinforcement of some emotional band-aid they feel they need.

In my definitions, affairs have a sexual component. EA is fantasy, not breaking over to the real world PA. As such, EA is usually tougher to let go of. And is tougher to compete with. After all, it’s a fantasy. Made up. Reality will pale against a fantasy.

I think most crisis have an undertone, or direct trauma that is sexual in nature. Something highly traumatic stunted a young person. And they are driven to explore that horrible hurt to heal from it. Hence why affairs are so commonplace.

The typical affair of a crisis is when one desperately is trying to find happiness. They incorrectly equate sex with happiness, and get lost in the infatuation. A band-aid. A symptom of a deeply hurt and troubled soul.

Interestingly, the MLCer recreates their messed up dynamic of long ago, the affair partner being the parent (authority figure). The affair is designed to fail. They need to break up, and therefore grow up, from their surrogate parent. That’s why the LBS cannot fill the role. The AP is being used and would be left.

Given H’s guy friend is more like a brother, let’s define him as more an emotional crutch. The “brother”, the daily talks and texts, the weed, all running behaviours. All pushing aside the pressures of reality.

D

[MamaG]

Pattnee5, thanks for sharing your story. I'm so sorry that you're going through this, but happy to hear that you're carrying on. I have soooo many questions. Hope you don't mind.
If he hadn't moved across the world, do you think you'd still be seeing "Hugs admiration for the kids, moments and glimmers of hope."? And/or, would the "times he would even kiss me and then you could almost see the wall go straight up and the alien appear." have led to more and more until he got through? I'm in that place now - he'll hug and hold my hand for hours, go to dinner/breakfast, take me to appts, watch some Netflix, play cards. He runs out of steam and needs to 'go home', but is able and willing to do this several times a week. Do I continue inviting and doing things together? Am I holding him back?

I don't get much monster - can't remember when I last saw monster. H is generally calm and talkative about work and a couple outings he may have. For the most part, H's life is quite boring and homebound. H doesn't talk about kids, family, homes, R, anything else. Just work and seldom outings. H isn't arrogant nor trying to impress me. H is purely low-key and foggy. Any idea why H isn't a monster? Was your H always a monster through the 16 months or did he slow down at some point?

What makes you believe that your H is between depression and withdrawal? What actions/changes did you see/hear to lead you to think so?

My H admits to wearing a mask most days/times and says it's exhausting. It surprises me that H has such awareness. Is this common?

Would you describe your H to have an avoidant personality style like my H? I'd categorize myself as an anxious style. I'm thinking this didn't help our current situation.

[MamaG]

DnJ, your responses take me a couple reads to process and digest. I'm so confused by all of this. As a logical person, this is all mind-boggling. Thank you for taking the time and always providing well thought through responses.

Love your nightmare correction. It's still my nightmare. What I haven't told you is what is on my backburner, as I focus on understanding this insanity. H's family doesn't reach out to him - not a close bunch. I've asked them to check on him and be more involved but I fell on deaf ears. They're disappointed in what they see (outward changes of piercings, tattoos, Duck Dynasty beard). Would you recommend that I re-ask them to be more involved? Or do we think H is better to be left alone as he has been?

And, the second obstacle I've been avoiding is verbally admitting that he's moved out. We live in a small town and I don't know how to tell this story, especially since his story isn't one I like to tell. (He is short and says, he bought a house and moved out.) Do I adopt his script? or say something like, H is going through some things and we're figuring ourselves out?

"Thought like his teenage self. Not the responsibilities of his present older self and life. That is how they run. Trying to escape themselves. Trying to relive, and grow up, from when they were emotionally stunted." I may have just connected a couple dots. When you say, MLCer runs, are you saying that H is running from being 49 and WANTS/CHOOSES to go back to childhood trauma for a do-over? H actually wants to go back? I've been thinking MLCer has been running from the childhood trauma so H doesn't have to face it. If H is choosing to relive those years to get through the trauma, it sounds like he may be between 17 and 20.

"When, if, H exits running/replay - you will know. There will be no doubts. Exiting replay means H has stopped running and is facing all he has done, and what was done to him long ago. The withdrawal and depression is deep and staggering." I can't imagine depression that is worse than what he's feeling now. And withdrawing (ghosting) more than he does now seems impossible but I trust you've been there. Sorry, I really am. What behaviors can I expect? What changes will I see? You say it'll be obvious - can you give ideas or what you experienced?

This comment resonates: "To me, H’s interactions with the kids, is a mixture of a few things. H peaking out of the tunnel; a temp check; a teenager mentality connecting/trying to be friends (instead of being a parent); and confused H/Dad unsure how to express his feelings." It seems like H wants to be friends - haven't seen much parenting but see him wanting to go to breakfast or hang out. I've even sensed that with me. H is perfectly comfortable being a friend but gets all squirmy with intimacy. Which brings me to another thought/question. I've read that MLC intimacy with LBS is not a connection, but rather a feel good about self moment for MLCer. Agree? In the few instances, things are great in the moment and for the rest of our 'visit', but he's said "I don't like how I feel" the day following intimacy. Why is that? What goes through MLCer? If H is 17 to 20 in his trauma (clearly driving to pick me up), I would think that intimacy would make him feel good the next day. Can you help break this down for me?

As for the EA and PA response you provided, I am so lost. Maybe I'm in denial but I haven't looked to understand affairs too deeply bc I haven't seen any evidence of an affair. What do you mean that an "EA is a fantasy"? Go ahead and laugh at me....Do you mean H is talking with himself? Talking with an online gal like onlyfans?

"I think most crisis have an undertone, or direct trauma that is sexual in nature." I don't know what you mean by this comment? Could H have been sexually abused? Sexually denied by a prior relationship?

thanks again for your patience with me and my confusion.

[Pattnee5]

Pattnee5, thanks for sharing your story. I'm so sorry that you're going through this, but happy to hear that you're carrying on. I have soooo many questions. Hope you don't mind.
If he hadn't moved across the world, do you think you'd still be seeing "Hugs admiration for the kids, moments and glimmers of hope."? And/or, would the "times he would even kiss me and then you could almost see the wall go straight up and the alien appear." have led to more and more until he got through? I'm in that place now - he'll hug and hold my hand for hours, go to dinner/breakfast, take me to appts, watch some Netflix, play cards. He runs out of steam and needs to 'go home', but is able and willing to do this several times a week. Do I continue inviting and doing things together? Am I holding him back?

I don't get much monster - can't remember when I last saw monster. H is generally calm and talkative about work and a couple outings he may have. For the most part, H's life is quite boring and homebound. H doesn't talk about kids, family, homes, R, anything else. Just work and seldom outings. H isn't arrogant nor trying to impress me. H is purely low-key and foggy. Any idea why H isn't a monster? Was your H always a monster through the 16 months or did he slow down at some point?

What makes you believe that your H is between depression and withdrawal? What actions/changes did you see/hear to lead you to think so?

My H admits to wearing a mask most days/times and says it's exhausting. It surprises me that H has such awareness. Is this common?

Would you describe your H to have an avoidant personality style like my H? I'd categorize myself as an anxious style. I'm thinking this didn't help our current situation.

Hi MamaG no worries I will try and give as much info as I can and hopefully it helps. I first noticed H drinking increased, always after a stressful work day he would drink more and more and usually when the monster in him came out. After BD the monster would appear if I would push any R talks or talks about us and he would get angry and storm out. He was usually a low energy wallower and happy to sit at home and do nothing. A few months agter Bd he moved out but was around all the time then would retreat and do his own thing. Sometimes he joined us for outings other times not but always would have dinner with us would watch movies. Held my hand occasionally then would shut down and run away. The drinking didn’t stop. He would try and quit then drink again. He is definitely an avoider. Always hated facing things or was too lazy to. Would rather bury his head in the sand. He would say we have hope and then he would get drunk and yell at me. They say the anger is good to get out. He never ever yelled at me though our whole marriage and he spent all of last year treating me like absolute garbage and said the most hurtful words. When I discovered his affair he stopped monstering but didn’t admit the full extent t until the day before he left.
He made a knee jerk decision with the job in September and kept saying “ he hates his life he needs to go fix himself”. It really was a massive look at him and the turmoil he was in x there was no doubt at that point it’s a mlc, his whole personality changed so much. He had become someone I don’t recognise at all and he knows it. He looks to be filled with so much guilt and shame. All he talks about is how he’s old, how he’s fat, how he isn’t as wealthy as his sister, how the kids don’t like him for what he did. It’s like a massive pity party. He’s done all the damage and he knows it but won’t own it or apologise. He would monster at me at nights after a stressful day and drinking then come and apologise the next day unable to remember what he said. I never told him. It was bad. So bad. No woman should ever have to hear the words I hear and the old H would have absolutely hated any man that acted like this or spoke to a woman like this. That what’s makes me know he is someone else abducted. Mine wasn’t arrogant or trying to impress. He was a man that looked like he was just going through the motions of life without an ounce of joy or happiness or smiling. He would get up and tick the daily boxes of job, kids, drink. This was after bomb drop too and leading up. But it got worse after bomb drop. He got way worse. He was miserable. He took the job on a whim thinking it will fix his life he wanted to “ find himself because I have who I’ve become”. It’s like he knows there’s something wrong with himself then in the next breath if he is frustrated or drinking he blames everyone around him. It’s very jeckyl and Hyde. He would snap at the kids too. For no reason sometimes. It was draining
I can see now the best thing about him leaving my space was for me and the kids. What he was doing here he was making no progress in getting better. I thought the move and job change would have inspired him but after seeing him recently he is the same if not worse. His self esteem has completely gone.( probably hence the need to message and chase skirt). As far as I know he doesn’t have a proper affair partner the person he was embroiled with was married and he kept saying he had to get himself out of that mess and disappear. He admitted to chatting to women and likely where he lives now he bar hops looking for someone to get him off. It’s just chasing happiness externally rather than looking within. His problems have followed him and likely escalated two fold.

How do I know he is depressed withdrawn? Because this man never would have gone almost no contact with his kids, very little financial help, not even asking how anyone is or how I’m coping with the financials and kids and everything. He has zero care for anyone but himself. This man would have always looked after his kids at least and now he’s talking of buying a sports car ( he never ever was a car person). The contact has almost completely gone. Since leaving the damage he has done to his relationship with the kids is huge he can’t see it. I can see it in both of them. My daughter recently had her boyfriend break up with her and she was devastated and I could clearly see the lack of trust in men she had all stemmed from her dad. My son misses his male role model but luckily where I can’t step in as that my brother had absolutely nailed it in being the father figure H isn’t. He looked miserable a lot of the time we were with him for the week in Los Angeles. His anger would simmer and you could see it bubbling away he was miserable to be around ( both kids even noticed it) the energy is absolutely draining. I remained quiet for alot of it. You could almost see his brain ticking away constantly. I think he mainly works, sits behind a computer and plays video games with his high school mates and goes out and drinks. Very teenage life. Conversation with him is hard it’s almost like he can’t socialise. He can’t loosen up. He can’t have fun. He has no joy in him. He has aged so much since leaving the marital home and family life. He is by no means fat but obviously has major body issues within his head. He’s obsessed with feeling old.

I don’t think if he stayed he could have gotten better. I expected the move would help him but he seems to have gotten far worse. They say they get worse before better.
I would just take it day by day, there is no playbook. I thought H was coming out of it multiple times but boy was I wrong. MLC is the pits. It really is. I am 18 months in and as far as I’m aware it is a minimum 3-5 years. I don’t know what happens to them. What chemical imbalance there is. But some men are just terrible at dealing with mental health. I think my H is so ashamed of who he is who he has become and is running to bury his head in the sand and avoid anything and everyone and left a trail of destruction. If he stayed here and didn’t take the job he would not have got any better he was so stuck. By leaving it’s likely still the same but maybe not. They keep us completely out of the withdrawal stage. That’s how I know or think he’s in withdrawal. They keep their family completely out so they can sort themselves out. Whether he is doing any sorting or not who knows. The depression I can see. It’s so obvious the moods the low self esteem. He always looked so tired. The drinking to numb the emotions ( he def still drinks)
We can’t do a single damn thing for them Mama except be there if they want or need us. If they feel safe enough for us. I thought H felt safe enough with me but since he’s moved and gotten worse and withdrawn I now don’t even know who this person is.
It’s a long road. We can only hope they get themselves through but in the meantime not put our life on hold. H being here for all of 2023 showed he wasn’t getting anywhere. Let’s see what the move does long term but so far I can’t say I’m seeing much. I do know I was the best thing in H life and the kids. Sometimes they think the grass is greener in MlC and go chasing that life only to realise that it very much is just gross Hay. They have to live this path themselves. They got themselves in this mess with things that they buried in childhood and early life so now it’s come to the surface for them to heal. It’s really up to them
Just tread carefully no expectations. Keep living your life. Be grateful for every single day you have and for what you have. Grateful for the time with H. Even at his worst I still loved him so much and hated I couldn’t help him. That’s the worst part watching someone you love in such turmoil and pain.
We come to this board as complete messes and the H in so much strength very quickly the roles reverse and we rise and they spiral. My H was similar to yours after bd.Low energy wallower with clinging boomerang. The pattern was the same. He got social anxiety, was stressed and buried in work, as I said life itself was a chore. He couldn’t see the joy in life he hardly laughed normally it was all forced. I’ve seen glimmers of the real H but it quickly goes as the alien storms in. It’s horrible. MLC is horrible.they lose their memory. They become so irresponsible they forget who they are and were.
You asked if he didn’t move away would he eventually moved home? I think only if he faced his issues and worked through. The pattern would have still been the same the withdrawal the depression the acceptance and the working through. Maybe he would have maybe he wouldn’t have. I think it would have taken him longer. I think now he is living with the full reality of his pain and choices and can see his problems have followed him ( when me and the kids aren’t there). He still complains about his new job and new work people ( surprise surprise). He complains he hasn’t been as vigilant with the gym and getting his body right ( no surprise). He has all the time in the world with only himself to care for yet he still seems so stuck in a rut.

It’s a battle Mama.As good as I am and as much as I am enjoying new hobbies and kids and our life I miss my H so much. The old H not this MlC version. I still want to help him I still know if he let me in I could be his absolute pillar of strength and love when nobody else can. But he won’t and that’s just MlC they push everyone out. It’s how they grow it’s how they mature within themselves. They need to find their own tools through it. We can’t do it because otherwise it will repeat.
Ask away anything you want I will keep checking I have a bit of time up my sleeve now the next few weeks.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

It's still my nightmare. What I haven't told you is what is on my backburner, as I focus on understanding this insanity. H's family doesn't reach out to him - not a close bunch. I've asked them to check on him and be more involved but I fell on deaf ears. They're disappointed in what they see (outward changes of piercings, tattoos, Duck Dynasty beard). Would you recommend that I re-ask [his family] to be more involved? Or do we think H is better to be left alone as he has been?

You asked H’s family to check in on him. And as you say, they are not a close family. You asked, they responded. I’d leave that as is now.

And, the second obstacle I've been avoiding is verbally admitting that he's moved out. We live in a small town and I don't know how to tell this story, especially since his story isn't one I like to tell. (He is short and says, he bought a house and moved out.) Do I adopt his script? or say something like, H is going through some things and we're figuring ourselves out?

This is often an area of concern for new LBS. Wondering, how do I explain the situation.

You don’t have to. You don’t have to explain anything to small town nosey neighbours. (I live in a small town. )

Different levels of information are appropriate for different relationship. Family, friends, neighbours.

Basically, just stick to the facts of the situation. An example, XW moved in with OM. I had to remove her from “our” post office box. No point having her mail show up here. Therefore, I had to let the post mistress know of some new living arrangements. I didn’t tell her where XW moved to, just that she no longer lived with me and the kids. That’s was the same for income tax, census, the town’s emergency response plan, and so on.

And in a small town, gossip travels fast. However, my MLCer is/was a high energy one. XW was flaunting her shinny new lover and life. The two of them were going to all kinds of events together. It was a difficult pill to swallow having her narrative spread around.

In time, the truth does win out. And it did here as well. I bit my tongue, went about my life, and let her and OM mess up their story themselves. That “no manipulating” is a tough thing to follow at times. lol.

Family and good close friends do deserve more information. That’s your family, not his. Blood is thicker than water. No matter what, H’s family will still be his family. And they will lean to his side. Or perhaps remain neutral. I know it’s difficult, do not go looking for allies and/or support from H’s family, parents, siblings.

MG, you are placing H’s relationship with his family on your stove; back burner it may be. And worrying about what to say about the current events; which is stemming from denial BTW. When you let go of that, you’ll let go of the nightmare. Well, this portion of it.

You can only control you. Not H, nor his family, nor what the townsfolk think or hear or see.

For a chance at some future reconciliation, and for your peace of mind (which is by far the better reason), do not salt the earth. Some go nuclear and tell all, openly blasting their wayward spouse and their affair to everyone. Very difficult to come back from such a thing. Don’t ring bells that can’t be un-rung. Yet, don’t walk on eggshells either. More facts than feelings. After all, feelings are fleeting.

I may have just connected a couple dots. When you say, MLCer runs, are you saying that H is running from being 49 and WANTS/CHOOSES to go back to childhood trauma for a do-over? H actually wants to go back? I've been thinking MLCer has been running from the childhood trauma so H doesn't have to face it. If H is choosing to relive those years to get through the trauma, it sounds like he may be between 17 and 20.

Yes, he is running from being 49. He is running from being old and wants a do over. To replay, to relive his youth and all that he feels he missed out on.

Is H choosing it? Sort of. Though more not. He is more driven to it. His emotions are pushing him, driving him, so much, so ceaselessly, H is desperate for relief/escape. And desperate people do desperate things.

H is running from himself. Yet no matter how far or fast he runs, there his is. (Pattnee’s H is realizing that from the other side of the globe.)

A crisis is a hard thing to understand, because it is not rational. A crisis is emotionally driven. It does not make sense. H will do strange, unreasonable, irrational stuff. Because he feels it.

We are outside of his crisis, and it is difficult to figure out. Being inside, like H, would be mind boggling.

I've read that MLC intimacy with LBS is not a connection, but rather a feel good about self moment for MLCer. Agree? In the few instances, things are great in the moment and for the rest of our 'visit', but he's said "I don't like how I feel" the day following intimacy. Why is that? What goes through MLCer? If H is 17 to 20 in his trauma (clearly driving to pick me up), I would think that intimacy would make him feel good the next day. Can you help break this down for me?

One cannot form a sincere connection, especially an intimate one, with someone else when they do not have connection to themself.

You are correct, intimacy would make him feel good the next day. Therefore, H is not intimately connected to his deep self.

H is lost! He is floating along, doing whatever he feels might alleviate his depression, pain, numbness, in that moment. Nothing he currently does, provides long lasting reprieve.

MLCers are desperate to find something to give their lives meaning. Yet they toss aside the very tenets that did/do just that. A loving family doesn’t just grow on trees, or is found on any street corner. It’s such a cruel twist, the very thing they run from they will come to desperately seek. (Family, friends, hard work, responsibility, and so on.)

When H says, “I don’t know how I feel” he is being honest.

Basically, for the MLCer, it’s sex. Not intimacy. Yes, there is likely old H somewhere in that hot mess of emotions, so not totally 100%. Maybe 90/10? 95/5? 98/2? Well, whatever percentage, mostly sex.

Some caution and advice. Most importantly, use protection. You don’t need to contract some STD. Yes, I know you don’t think, feel, believe H is having an affair. (H will lie about it BTW) You might be right. And I hope you are. However, it is staggering how common affairs are. In fact, I cannot think of a single situation where there wasn’t an affair. Some are announced, yet most are eventually discovered. (Not being mean here girl. You deserve and need to know the truth. Your health and well-being is vital.)

If you partake in activities with H, have no expectations that he is attaching some deep meaning to the encounter. Just enjoy it for what it is. If that is what you wish you do. Lots of folks cannot do this and being close keeps them emotionally messed up. Detachment is the single best thing you can do for your mental/emotional health.

Cake eating. I don’t recommend letting them have their cake and eat it too. If there is sex with someone else, no sex with you. Period.

As for the EA and PA response you provided, I am so lost. Maybe I'm in denial but I haven't looked to understand affairs too deeply bc I haven't seen any evidence of an affair. What do you mean that an "EA is a fantasy"? Go ahead and laugh at me....Do you mean H is talking with himself? Talking with an online gal like onlyfans?

I won’t laugh at you. Honest. This stuff is difficult, especially when we first get tossed into it. Let’s flesh it out some.

An affair: a sexual relationship between two people, one or both of whom are married to or in a long-term relationship with someone else.

A sexual relationship. Sexual makes it not just friends. Therefore an affair.

There are two types of affairs. Emotional affair and physical affair. Let’s start with the more straightforward of the two, the physical affair. As the name states it’s physical. Real, in-person, activities. The emotional affair is a sexual relationship that hasn’t cross in to the face to face world. No physical sex/contact. What about kissing? That’s contact, and if it’s sexual in nature, well things are likely going to progress quickly. So no point getting bogged down splitting hairs here.

The EA is therefore sans contact. Texts, emails, phone calls, pictures, etc. The “affair release” is fantasy because they do not meet or contact each other. The picture someone has of such a “lover” in their mind is a fantasy. A fantasy does no wrong. Is always willing and right there. It’s a falsehood, a fabrication of the mind. And therefore devilishly hard to fight or compete against.

Oddly, the fantasy EA when taken into the real world and becomes a PA has a higher chance of extinguishing. Fantasies don’t get sick, or hung over, or fight, etc. And moving in really brings up the problems in an illicit relationship. Cleaning vomit, doing dishes, laundry, etc, all very much too real.

Also, said EA relationship could be one-way. Only one person is involved, or even knows about it. Very stalker-like.

“I think most crisis have an undertone, or direct trauma that is sexual in nature." I don't know what you mean by this comment? Could H have been sexually abused? Sexually denied by a prior relationship?

Yes, that is the kind of thing I was referring to.

Especially, an immature child. Imagine how messed up one would become. The youngest has basically no skills or reference or understanding of what/why things are happening to them. And being young, they are highly egocentric, the world revolves around them.

So, they internalize what is happening. They blame themselves. They come to feel they deserve it. It’s how they cope. It’s a horrible poor mechanism, yet it’s all their immature minds have at that time. And to survive, they bury the events, the pain, the trauma.

Things buried alive, will come back to haunt.

I don’t know H’s past, just causes, patterns, and similarities pieced together over the years and over the stories. Something major planted those long ago seeds.

That being said, perhaps H is struggling with a hard life transition, more than a full blown crisis. (And I really do hope and pray that is so.) Time will tell. Regardless, your path is the same.

D

[Pattnee5]

Hi again Mama I thought I would add a bit more after reading DnJ post. Can I just say DnJ is an absolute guru and lifesaver and along with a few other regulars on here they were my absolute lifeline one year ago. You’re doing great. You’re like me you want to read and know and understand everything. We want to try and fix them. We can’t it takes a while to realise that.
My H is also 49.My H did the exact same thing with affection and touches and hugs and then would say in the next moment “ nothings changed I don’t love you anymore”. It’s the cycling. It’s the roller coaster. It’s the monster that has taken then over and for 10 % of the time the man peeks out and you see the man you recognised. It’s horrible but don’t get too caught up in it. They are in absolute turmoil. I read a lot off old forums on here back in the day. A poster called HappyAgain experienced a MlC of his own and I remember reading about how his feelings for his spouse were locked away buried beneath the fog. They can’t access them. They are there somewhere and we get glimmers when the real man comes out and hugs us, but they are quickly shut down by their internal system( or that snotty green alien that is sitting behind the controls at their brain). Somehwere else I read an amazing story of a woman who wrote about all of her mlc. How she felt like she was in a block of ice and it took a lot of time for the ice to crack and those buried emotions to come back to surface. They were always there just frozen in that time. It was very fascinating reading this stuff. I can’t remember where but I did so much reading.

I’ve always wondered about H upbringing and what happened. His family too aren’t overly close more polite conversations they have not gotten invoked at all (other than his older sister who I believe had her own mlc and a very mixed up life and is leading H further down the tunnel with ridiculous advice ). Just leave the family be. You can’t force family. Let them worry about him and intervene if they choose to do so. My H would be feeling so alone. He always used to dread having to speak to his family when we were together it was like a chore and he could never be bothered because. It was always boring polite conversation. Now he doesn’t have me to come home to or rattle on about work it must be a very lonely and miserable existence. Humans are designed for company. Not to be alone. It makes you realise just how messed up the whole withdrawal is that they remove themselves from the people that love them the most unconditionally in this world. They are in huge pain. Pain we would never know about.

I have to say about the affair DNJ has never been wrong. When I came to the boards I was saying the same thing there was nobody else H had said so and he certainly didn’t look like someone who had another person. It took 11 months post BD for me to stumble on something where he was sending snaps of himself to someone. At the time he said they were just friends and he is speaking to other women because we are over. Remember I said he was nasty to me when he was drinking. He went hell for leather blaming me constantly for the breakdown of our marriage and blaming me for every wrongdoing I did in our relationship. He made me feel so guilty and bad and I hated myself so much. Everyone kept telling me it’s not about me and not about what I had done in the past none of it. Sure enough this surfaced. And then just before he flew out he told me he actually had physical affair before Bd. The puzzle pieces all fell into place. The projected blame was his own guilt. He kept saying “ you’re going ro hate me you will never forgive me “. I never ever thought he would have come clean. He would have likely carried all of that with him nd it would have destroyed him. I found him telling me a huge step. He can’t see it but I hope it helps him heal and learn to work though his issues. Although only time will tell. He never would have come clean. I am not sure what happened that day that he felt he needed to tell me.
As for DnJ sexual abuse stuff I have always wondered something like that. My H always said he had big blanks in his memory of childhood. I always found that strange. He also said he just had a bad memory.many years ago before all of this we were talking about that and he made a comment about “ I always wondered if something happened to me as a kid which is why I can’t remember anything. Maybe even sexual abuse”. At the time I didn’t think too much about it but when this all unfolded it played a lot on my mind. Was that something his subconscious locked away and it’s all now coming out.who knows what happened behind closed doors with creepy uncles. Anyway again it’s not our place to know unless they unlock the door and let us in.But yes I too have a 49 yrs too MLC who it seems wants to look like he did in his 20s and re life his teenage years. Mine seems to be sitting somehwere around university years in his early 20s. Drinking, video games, moving out of home ( only difference being is his parents basically told him to move out and I didn’t) and chasing hollow dreams of living abroad. We used to always say we both wanted to work and live abroad for a year together and should have before kids. But we’re always going to do it once the kids were older and moved on in their adult life. H is just acting out his old dreams. We are just his colaterla damage.

At the end of the day I love what I have and I am so grateful every day for the little things. For being in my home raising my teenage kids and spending every second in their life. I have everything. Family, friends, laughter, joy. I miss my H, I miss his company I miss my best friend and intimacy but he is not capable of any of that right now. All I know Is I would never want to trade places with him and he in his shoes right now. His world certainly isn’t better than mine.

Keep going Mama. Live every moment of every day. Get out in the sun, get one good motivational self help books and walk and listen. Find a hobby, dress up go window shopping have a bath. Do all of the stuff that is for you and your healing. Take the focus off H and what he is doing and stop analysing his every move it will drive you bonkers trying to guess where he is. You never can.

[MamaG]

What a story! What a life! It really is hard and hard to believe. I am so sorry about the length of monstering you endured. I feel lucky that my situation experienced less of it.
H's first BD in Feb 2023 was followe by several GREAT months where we talked and vacationed and loved each other deeper and NO weed. That is, until he celebrated 4/20. At the time, I saw addiction as the issue but with each passing month from June to BD#2 in Sept 2023, there was definitely visible sadness that moved to anxiety, arguments, distancing, late nights with the guys, etc. BD#2 introduced the monster and request for space - confusion for me. It was a quick shift and a self-proclaimed wall around his heart that he wasn't going to let me break down. H had enough of my controlling and wanted a D. From Nov on, monstering was minimal and I was his PA until he moved out in Dec. H tried to place calls/texts and even share dinners (H would come over) in Jan, Feb, Mar but I could see it wasn't easy for him. H really tried though and I showed compassion and gratitude for his efforts. Then I learned about MLC but have continued to stay connected with H. H doesn't monster. The most visible thing is the running after so many hours together and ghosting me in between visits. After reading through DnJ's explanation of EA and PA today, I know he is having an EA (didn't understand until today). H admitted to EA in Feb and I told him at one point that he should feel strange after EA and not after me. This made him uncomfortable and such moments have dwindled. H was/is not totally comfortable but I thought I could keep affairs out of the pic this way. Not sure whether to continue or to start some snooping to confirm PA or no PA. Maybe I'll get the internal strength to snoop a bit....as I certainly don't need any shared diseases.

I'm still hoping this is a horrible transition - wish I could confirm this. Knowing that your H behaved last year like mine is this year makes me think he could start monstering again and it really is MLC.

Thank you for sharing your story, knowledge, experiences, recommendations. I don't like that you're in this predicament but hearing others stories really does help confirm this craziness exists and somehow we're the LBSes having to decide to stand or walk. I am tempted to walk, but am then reminded about how much I love and can't give up on H.

Hugs to you and many thanks. If you think of anything more to share, I'm all ears.

[MamaG]

I honestly don't know much about his whereabouts because I would not handle snooping well. Simple stuff would have me spinning and I needed to be talked off my ledge. For instance, I learned he bought firewood for the wood burning fireplace so he spent less on oil heat. I'd be upset because we have firewood that he could come get instead of dropping top dollar at a grocery store and then complain that he doesn't have money to eat. Easier to not know. Another example is knowing that he was stopping at a package store more frequently than his norm. That's how I learned he started drinking and I would get nervous as to where it would lead. H tends to confess tho - H openly told me that he has a drink every night. I reacted with surprise and said, "I'm not concerned that you don't have it under control but it's odd that you're drinking daily now even if its one drink." H would confirm, it's only one after work and...he stopped to think...I didn't have one two nights ago. I quickly responded with "Ya know you had to think about if you went a night without a drink." and then I followed my comment up with, "I know without any thought that from say....Jan 15 2005 to Feb 15 2005, you had zero drinks because you didn't drink unless we had a social event." H affirmed my thought and went off into his la-la land. Don't know what happened in that brain after that.

DnJ's comment about potential sexual abuse in his childhood has me thinking and I plan to ask him straight out at some point when the time is right. H has a good memory about his childhood - doens't seem to be gapped in years or moments. But, I've not narrowed it out. I know with certainty that his uncle 10 years his senior was abused by a family member's neighbor. Can't help but wonder if H was too and perhaps covered up by family. Unless someone guides me otherwise, I will ask H if he was abused.