2nd Time Around (Thread #2)

[MrP]

Had our counseling appointment yesterday. Overall, it felt like a productive discussion.

W brought up a good deal of her historical concerns (not feeling like I put her first, issues w/ my mother, not feeling like our money situation is fair, and a smattering of other issues) and now with MLC and menopause not being interested in sex.

The counselor asked why come to counseling at this point with D looming. W said it was because I didn't to divorce. When the counselor turned to me, I clarified that 1) W asked me a month ago about trying counseling again and 2) I've come to accept that we may reconcile or D and am OK with either outcome. If we can reconcile, I'm on board with trying. Further, if the only reason W wants counseling is because she feels I don't want to D, we probably shouldn't be doing counseling.

W struggled to tell the counselor what she meant by not feeling like I put W first. The only example shared involved my mother and a struggle between them around how we celebrate Mother's day. For years, we tried having my mom, MIL, SIL and, W celebrate together. W felt like she never got to be "The Mom". I'd asked what that would look like and W really couldn't say. I offered suggestions like "Do you want to go away for the weekend? Should we just tell everyone we're doing our own thing?" and even said "I'm going to do X" to which she historically responded "Well, I want to see why my mom (MIL to MrP) wants to do first...." So I told the counselor I feel stuck in a bit of a loop.

Regarding money, I make double what W does. Before we got married, we agreed to split our budget in proportion to our income. I cover 70-80% of our expenses; W the rest. As time passed, W felt like this was unfair (because I still have a surplus from not being a spender). I've offered to revisit our budget or pool money (as of 6-7 years ago). I've tried to set up time for us to work through it. W doesn't like talking about money, has social anxiety, and just avoids the discussion. Hard to solve something when one party just wants to complain and not do the work. W somewhat acknowledged the mixed messaging here.

We covered some additional ground about what we want to get out of counseling. I said W is really driving the show because we've got mediation in a month and the court was pushing for the D to be done in about 2 months. W wants to go back for more counseling and is talking with her L today about options to delay/postpone the D.

Another point of recap...the first time W filed for D in 2018/19, I put in a ton of DB work to the point that W told our counselor at the time that I'd "become the perfect husband". Before that, I'd describe our issues as common solvable ones described by John Gottman in his well-researched books. W has high social anxiety issues, like is an avoidant attachment style, and a confessed perfectionist. I'm not perfect, but admittedly I've increasingly felt like these issues and some past trauma/abuse that W suffered are at the core of our relationship at this point. A prior MC went so far as to tell me that our marraige won't move forward until W deals with this past trauma.

I am left wondering now if D may be a better route for me and D13. Continuously revisiting these issues, often through the lens of negative sentiment override (where one part overwrites most memories into a negative light) and three MCs later, maybe I'm seeing that W can't break free from the loop...and I'm trying to "white knight" the situation. Thoughts appreciated. Right now, I'm still a believer in MWDs philosophies about D not being a real solution. Just a bit tired of the amount of mental effort (and impact of physical wellness) with this counseling, mediation, and possible D all coming to a head right now. Phew. Time to stop. Thanks for listening. Be well, all.

[grok]

MrP,

Overall, it felt like a productive discussion.

I kind of get the feel for the shape of it, but ... it may help to define: What parts felt productive, to what end?

not feeling like I put her first, issues w/ my mother, not feeling like our money situation is fair

These feel like WAS reoccurring themes, especially after many years and perhaps complacency that comes with it. My W pointed out that although I would do things for the family, I would more rarely do things for her alone. Times when I would deliberately exclude everyone else. It seems all Ws compete in some way with their MIL. As far as money, my W says now I was always hard to talk to about it. From my perspective I almost never said no to any request. I just made it happen though she could see the stress it caused me. I think I should have said NO much more often.

Are they really root issues? Or just things more easily talked about or easily identified? Seized on justifications to walk away?

I am left wondering now if D may be a better route for me and D13. Continuously revisiting these issues, often through the lens of negative sentiment override (where one part overwrites most memories into a negative light) and three MCs later, maybe I'm seeing that W can't break free from the loop...and I'm trying to "white knight" the situation.

I considered then rejected MC because my W hasn’t ever really wanted to try since BD1. Well before I found MWD’s books and this forum, I recognized it takes two to be useful. That said, everything I read here shows that which MC you have and their approach makes a tremendous difference. I think my reference standard is MWD own thread here:

Hi Everyone,
Joanne has agreed to work on her marriage with a little bit of my help. I want to do this with her because a, I think it will be helpful and b, everyone reading this will understand the nuts and bolts of being solution-oriented 

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=71642

g

[MrP]

Hey Grok. Thanks for the comments. It was productive because the counselor did tease out of my W a few areas where W (for the first time) acknowledged her contributions to problems. For example, telling me that we together as parents should take a specific stand on a topic with our daughter and then, when our daughter pressures W, W caves in or sets me up to be the bad guy ("Ask your father...") so the "team" crumbles pretty quickly. And, just the fact that W agreed to come back for a 2nd visit and said "I like this MC" are huge steps for my W.

Definitely WASing here and some MLCing (gray hair noticing, tattoo wanting, etc.). Also, given W's social anxiety and past trauma, my sense is W just believes "life" doesn't work out her way and neither will this....and then lists these as reasons like self-fulfilling prophecies....or can't pivot to solutions vs. ruminating about issues over 7 years old at this point. I've also rarely said "No" by the way....I've put the ball in W's court for things that she really wants to do (and don't always fully understand her "why" so it makes it had for me to take the lead)...and then when it doesn't get done the blame falls on me.

You're right. The MC like any therapist can make a huge difference and is a very personal choice. Tough to have the time, money, and stamina to weed through them or restart the process if you get the wrong one. We'll see how this goes and thanks for the thread reference. I agree that is a good benchmark for what to look for in a good counselor. Be well!

[grok]

and then lists these as reasons like self-fulfilling prophecies....or can't pivot to solutions vs. ruminating about issues over 7 years old at this point.

I've been -ruminating- over John Gray's Mars/Venus books interpretation of this. Paraphrased:

~When a woman is stressed she feels a need to talk about her feelings and ALL the possible problems that are associated. No priorities. Not concerned with solutions. Seeks relief by expressing herself and being understood. Through exploring her feelings she finds awareness of what is really bothering her. The more talk and exploration, the better they feel. If not feeling heard and understood, she may expand further, even to other peoples problems.

Just as a man is fulfilled through working out the intricate details of solving a problem, a woman is fulfilled through talking about the details of her problems~

I've also rarely said "No" by the way....I've put the ball in W's court for things that she really wants to do (and don't always fully understand her "why" so it makes it had for me to take the lead)...and then when it doesn't get done the blame falls on me.

This year I'm wondering if this isn't a version of testing. i.e. Can you call me on my BS when I am off the rails? Are you stronger than me like I want you to be?

g