Learning the ropes 2

[Pattnee5]

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 love this Kind!!!

[MA1970]

Thank you Kind. Means a lot to have your backing.

[Card29]

MA, I’m catching up on your story. It sounds like you are making excellent progress. I’m 3 days post BD, but I also went through this 9 years ago. Thankfully I found DB the first time. It was a painful ride but as someone said in a comment to you, I look at it as my finest hour. You will too

[MA1970]

It's been a very tough couple of days. Never seen H properly monster before but I certainly have now! Not sure that I handled it all in the best way so I'm keen to get any feedback on things I might have done differently. Quick reminder, H appeared 2 weeks ago saying made a mistake, doesn't want divorce, loves me etc. I sent him on his way & told him to speak to his therapist. Since then, he's messaged me lots (I don't reply) & messaged daughter lots with memories & soppy comments. It was D's exam results day on Thursday (she did brilliantly inspite of past traumatic 8 months). Basically, he tracked us down via a social media app map on D's phone & turned up as we were leaving celebratory lunch. He said he'd wanted to see D but just gave her a quick well done & turned to me saying can we talk? I'm going on a family holiday early hours tomorrow & he has done this every time I've been away. I said no, I don't want to talk to you before my holidays. He said could we arrange a time when I came back & I said I was unsure & would think about it on my return. Prior to this, he has apparently been telling D he is severely depressed, has messed his life up & wants me back.

Yesterday D messaged him several times during the day via different apps & at different times. She got no reply & started to panic that he had hurt himself or worse. She asked if we could go to where he parks his car to see if he was there. He wasn't! I thought straight away this is the same pattern as when he goes back to OW & told her so. She didn't think this would happen, thought he was genuine this time & was really worried & crying. I agreed to drive to OW house & see if his car was there. It was! D was furious and opened the door and ran to OW house. She knocked on the door and her dad answered. He swore at her & then manhandled her quite aggressively away from his OW. D was crying, said he was hurting her & was shouting at OW saying her dad wanted to come back to me. I was parking up when all this happened. I rushed to get her away from him & did say a few choice words. It's the first time I have lost my temper but I had to pry his hands off her & he left red marks from where he had been holding her. I told him not to come back to the house next time his relationship broke down and I left.

I did send him a message in the night to clarify why we had gone there (out of D's concern) & to ask him not to do that in the future & to stay away. In the morning, I had several missed calls from him & a private message from OW saying she thinks he's been lying to her & has he tried to reconcile with me. I didn't answer OW immediately. He then arrived at the house, shouting & trying to force his way in. He wanted to know what OW had asked me & what I said. There was no concern for D and what he had done. He was chaotic and all over the place. D doesn't want to see him. I did reply to OW stating he had tried to reconcile but that I wasn't interested & please could she not message me again.

I felt really upset after & have been trying to work out why it's affected me so much? I think it's maybe because he has directly hurt D and continues to prioritise OW over D. I'm also possibly a bit upset that I lost it & shouted. It's the first time I've done this. It also felt very final. I'm feeling a little better now although it does feel like there's been a change in his presentation. Any thoughts on how I could have handled it differently (apart from the obvious of not going to OW's in the first place!)

[Kind18]

Oh MA, you must be so over this. This is like an episode of the young and the restless.

Did you realise you were marrying a man-child?

I think you did okay. Much better than I or most others would have done in the circumstances. Here’s my advice (the last bit you’re probably not going to like):

- Your daughter needs therapy NOW. No child should have to deal with thinking that her Dad might have committed suicide. Your number one priority atm should be protecting her mental health.
If you don’t, her current trauma won’t be dealt with and WILL lead to issues for her in the future. It’s your duty as her parent. What she’s going through is damaging and potentially life changing.

- You shouldn’t have taken daughter or yourself to where he normally parks or OW house. That really put her and you at risk. I understand it came from a place of concern. Best plan next time he’s not answering and daughter freaks out, call the police and ask them to do a welfare check on him. OW could have lashed out at you or daughter if she thought your ex was dumping her for you.

- Your husband is peaking. He is very unstable. He’s realised his mistake. But he’s keeping OW on the hook because he doesn’t want to be alone. Sort of vindicates your decision to not take him back, doesn’t it? When he came back begging, 90% of people at this site would have rolled over and taken him back. You stayed strong, and it looks like you dodged a HUGE bullet.

- I’m genuinely concerned for your safety. If husband realises he’s lost you and OW, and he’s drinking or heaven forbid starts getting into drugs, there’s a good chance he may commit some domestic violence.

- I believe you need to take a temporary protection order against him. I know you’ll try and justify why you shouldn’t, but you MUST protect yourself and daughter. Doesn’t mean he never sees you or daughter in the future - because if he gets his act together, I’m sure you’ll support their relationship. But right now, you don’t have any other option.

- Don’t interact with OW. Block her. All you’re doing is giving him a reason to blame you. Imagine you message her and tell her he wants back in, she ends up dumping him, he descends into depression or alcoholism and ends up in jail or self-harming. He will always blame YOU for that, even though it’s totally his fault. I guarantee he’s going to tell people that you were jealous and ruined his future with OW. Don’t play into his narrative. Block her on your phone/messenger/socials.

I’m really sorry it’s come to this MA, but I think it’s for the best. Imagine your best friend. She relays this exact story about her husband. What would recommend she do?

[DnJ]

Hello MA

Oh my goodness. I bet that was scary for D16 for her Dad to manhandle her. It’s heartbreaking that both her hope for Dad and fear for Dad both got simultaneously crushed the moment she saw him at OW’s place.

I know you will, yet still some encouragement, do talk with D16. None of this is her fault. Dad’s reaction is not her fault. His lying, his getting caught, all on him! Let daughter come to you. Be open and honest. I’m sure she will have some things to say. Remember not to demonize H/Dad. And gently steer, very gently.

D doesn't want to see him.

Honour her wishes.

I’ve been on the other side of that. Talked into, forced, my son to go for Christmas to visit Mom when he really didn’t want to. The visit went poorly, with Mom treating her kids like not even her own. When son came home he was furious! And rightly so. And he blasted me! Lesson learned.

Our job is not to facilitate the relationship between the left/leaving parent and child, our job is to not destroy it.

Another thing. You may get more than your share of lashing out, and rebelling from daughter. All her anger and frustration towards Dad will likely get “unfairly” focused towards you. You see, daughter cannot yet risk losing her Dad, yet she need to express her feelings, and you are the strong, stable, and safe parent. I’ve been there too. Four times!

In time, kids do find their way, and grieve the “loss” of their parent. D16’s Dad is not who lives in her mind and heart. My advice that I share here is so very important to our kids’ as well:

Keep your heart soft and squishy. In these situations, one tends to protect their heart, as it hurts so very much. We tend to harden it against the pain and sorrow. Instead, feel. Allow those emotions. Let them wash over you. And let love flow and keep your heart warm and squishy.

…a private message from OW saying she thinks he's been lying to her & has he tried to reconcile with me.

Yep. Lying and deceit makes a terrible foundation for a relationship. Like sand, anything built upon it requires more and more maintenance and repair to keep it from crumbling away.

I felt really upset after & have been trying to work out why it's affected me so much? I think it's maybe because he has directly hurt D and continues to prioritize OW over D.

It’s unfortunately pretty common for them to put children second and usually lower on their priority list. My XW placed OW first. OW’s son, she treated like her own. She acted like his Mom. Her running behaviours, her garden, her plants, her distractions were also more important than her four children. Remember, they are consumed and they run.

I'm also possibly a bit upset that I lost it & shouted.

That’s ok. Perfectly understandable.

…it does feel like there's been a change in his presentation.

Oh, I suspect H is going to be quite desperate trying to get the pieces of his life/lie back together. And desperate people do desperate things. Ensure your boundaries are rock solid.

Any thoughts on how I could have handled it differently (apart from the obvious of not going to OW's in the first place!)

You did very well over the past two weeks. H has begged, even offered that he’d dump OW if you’d take him back. You saw the folly in all this, and told him so. Said no, and that he needs to talk to his therapist.

Meanwhile H is lying and who knows what he is telling OW.

H tracks down D and basically uses her celebratory lunch as an opportunity to try to talk to you. He even tries to make plans for when you and D return from vacation. You wisely deferred any arrangements. Well done.

The events of today are unfortunate and somewhat unpredictable. Daughter was worried and you and her went to ensure Dad had not hurt himself, or some such.

Hindsight is of course 20/20. Before embarking on such an adventure you and D16 should have discussed what if we do find Dad’s car at OW’s house. Again, hard to see in the moment. However, next time things like this pop up, you’ll be better prepared. Being forewarned is to be forearmed.

Something you could/should talk about:

[H] has apparently been telling D he is severely depressed, has messed his life up & wants me back.

It’s pretty common for these folks to utilize kids as a conduit. They slyly glean information or like this time pass on their message to us through our kids. Speak with daughter, she shouldn’t be in the middle of Dad’s storm. She can tell him no. “Dad, please no more talk about such things, it’s between you and Mom, I just want to see you.” And if Dad won’t, she can implement boundaries too.

(((Hugs)))

D

[Pattnee5]

Oh MA I don’t have any advice of any sort but just wanted to say BIG HUGS to you and well done on how you handled it all. I wouldn’t beat yourself up for losing your temper. I probably would have kicked H in his manbits for even laying a hand on D. Honestly what we do in these situations can’t be planned and thought out. Seems you absolutely made the best choice not welcoming him back with open arms. He sounds very messed up. And certainly like an episode of a daytime soap. I feel for you MA. I really want to give you a huge hug right now and just remember MA and Kids above all else now!! H sounds like he’s in all sorts

[MA1970]

Thank you Kind, DnJ & Pattnee. I really thought I'd messed up my DB'ing progress so it's good to know there's lessons to be learned but not all bad. As ever, time has passed since Saturday night & I'm feeling more settled. H left our house on Sunday morning promising he would leave me alone. I've blocked him from everywhere I could think but he managed to sneak in through an old group chat we had for me, him & D a long time ago. D opened it & told me so I've just left it unopened. He was just wishing us a happy holiday (as if nothing has happened). D has also had 2 voicemails from H to apologise for his behaviour and ask for her forgiveness. The latter was today, mid afternoon when he was clearly crying & sounded drunk.shes not replied.

Kind - I really do appreciate all your advice & reassurance. You know me well & you're right that some of it feels a bit harsh at this stage. However, I do get where you are coming from. Here's what I've done so far; blocked both him & OW on all social media & phone. I've kept all the voicemail to D apologising for his behaviour and wrote an account of what happened that night. If he does do anything else, I will seek advice about an injunction & provide the evidence. We've also got patched up holes in plasterboard in the house from when he did live with us and would get frustrated at football after drinking & punch the wall. I also wondered about phoning safeguarding about his treatment of D and seeking advice from them. They would need to record this as a log of an event. I'm a Psychotherapist myself so I've been keen for D to access therapy since the beginning but she hasn't wanted to. She spoke to me today about the mixed feelings she has about her dad. She hates how he treats her & doesn't want anything to do with him but also mourns her dad and wants to have that father figure back in her life then everytime she let's him in, he let's her down again. It's a real vicious cycle. I tried to get her to consider therapy to just talk through some of this stuff but she absolutely refuses saying she prefers to talk to me, which I don't think is the best for either of us. All I can do is keep bringing it up & offering her the option.

DnJ - Thank you for sharing some of your experiences with your ex. It's just so hard to get my head around how he behaves. Thankfully, I'm detached again now & can observe it for what it is. More craziness that is impossible to understand or analyse so no point giving it the time of day and reinforcing it. I love the idea of D putting her own boundaries in. You've mentioned this previously & I did speak to D about it but everything settled again & she didn't put it into practice. I also like the idea of thinking about different dad scenarios and running through what we should do. I learn from each new encounter & adapt my behaviour accordingly. That's why this forum is so useful. It gives me a chance to check the new behaviours & how I respond.

Pattnee - thanks for the hugs. I know they are genuine and heartfelt. It's lovely to feel you have a little family of close strangers dotted anywhere & everywhere who have your back. Such an amazing community. I'm so very lucky I fell upon it very early on. I believe the universe was watching out for me!

[MA1970]

Bit of an update & a gentle request for guidance please.

H continues to present in a very chaotic manner. I think the relationship with OW is over by how he is but I can't confirm this (not that it matters). My current stance is that he is not who I married, he appears to be in the throes of MLC & there is zero evidence of behaviour change or attempts to work on himself. In view of this, I want to maintain my current boundaries of no contact unless pre arranged. I do not want to have friendly chat or give him false hope but equally I don't want to be cruel. So my dilemma is how I do this?

I've been on holiday in Europe this week and I blocked him on social media and phone before I went. Despite this, he has activated an old account & managed to get in touch. I've ignored all messages and not replied. He has also messaged both kids several times a day. These messages have consisted of old photos of us as a family with love hearts attached or a loving comment. He also sent a photo of us last christmas commenting I miss my wife, I miss my family I miss my children. I want us all back together. The next photo was one of him putting his wedding ring back on. I'm really not sure how to respond to all of this. As I say, so far Ive just ignored it but I know he's going to turn up at the house as soon as we're back. I dont want to give him false hope but we are worlds apart in terms of reconciling. I'm not saying this will never happen but certainly at the present time, I don't want reconciliation. I am happier and my life is more meaningful alone & at yhe present time, I do not find him or his behavioirs remotely attractive.

[DnJ]

Hello MA

H is certainly spinning. Pictures, messages, so much desperation.

…so far Ive just ignored it but I know he's going to turn up at the house as soon as we're back.

Continue to ignore his behaviour while on vacation.

I want to maintain my current boundaries of no contact unless pre arranged.

…

Despite this, he has activated an old account & managed to get in touch.

I’d strengthen that boundary. Block this old account too.

I do not want to have friendly chat or give him false hope but equally I don't want to be cruel. So my dilemma is how I do this?

It’s not cruel to say no to H.

Suggest he can forward his messages to your email. You’ll read them periodically, say once a week, and respond if needed.

If he just shows up at the house after vacation, like you suspect he will, toss a few truth darts his way while (re)telling him why.

Remind him, only five short weeks ago he wanted a divorce. (See below)

8am this morning he turns up at the house. Son answered door & he left him outside while he got me. H came in said Son had told him I was happy & moving on. He doesn't want to mess me about and realises that he has been doing this. Cares deeply for me... always will... Thinks he should give me a clean break & divorce. I said if that's what you want then you need to sort it out. He said he wouldn't take anything, wants it to be amicable, wants us to be friends. I said I wouldn't sell the house till kids left home & he agreed.

In fairness, and I realize your retelling may not be verbatim, in the above H didn’t strictly ask for a divorce. He offered a divorce, a clean break.

Of course, five weeks pass, OW and he seemingly blow up. And now he feels different. Fine. Yet that’s only five weeks. (You can tell him that too by the way.)

If he pushes or really wants to prove he’s changed:

If he really wants back, walk the talk. Get his act together. No contact with OW. Period! Six contiguous months of no contact with OW. Six months of consistent demonstrated positive behaviour. And then perhaps, maybe, you and he can date. However, if he drops the ball, if he reaches out to OW, ever, at any time, the clock resets back to zero and the six months start again.

Set the bar high. If he is sincere, if he really means it and is determined, he will reach it. And exceed it.

Note, this is pressure. However, you are responding to H, not initiating it. A big difference.

Now, he may run from such an open dialog and hearing the requisite way back to you. If he does, well he wasn’t really ready to return. Still, even if he does run, its likely to plant a seed in him.

If he nurtures such a seed, he may heal and become whole. Maybe even become a better man. Someone you may even again find attractive. (Remember, indifference does unwind.) Though, he does have a pile of work to do.

In short, keep your boundaries, give a truth dart or two (or three of four if he pushes for them), and keep moving forward. You live and love your life. Let him run to catch up to you.

D