I have not had the right time or frame of mind to respond to all these messages, apologies. But that day of the DnJ hug was very well timed, as were the added hugs by Sage and Eagle -- thank you! And SJohn-am, really loved your post and the empathy and care and friendship, very needed that day and the days following! I just have to steal a moment soon to reply properly.
I did think a lot about my reaction to some of the posts. I noticed I felt really driven to explain myself, or to justify what I think or do or to remind those I know here of who I am or what I did in the past or what I meant, etc. It was exactly how I was around H. There is something in all of us LBS's, I think, where we think we need to make something clear to the MLCer so that s/he will finally understand -- and I guess, finally see The Truth and therefore see we were right -- or love us again -- or feel remorse....
I had that same feeling in wanting to reply here, and I even succumbed to it on one of my posts above. Each time I tried to reply, I saw that I was just going to do that again, and that I was preparing a path for myself to feel hurt/alone if someone here didn't understood me or thought something of me that wasn't what I know of myself or my kids or what I did to get us to this point.
That longing to justify oneself, to explain, to make the other person "finally realize" is such a powerful force, and I think it drives most of what we do in the early days, and is what trips us up later too, even when we think we have grown past it. It's the very force I am always counseling folks here to push aside, to ignore, to exorcise.
Even now I am battling with myself to list all the therapy we have done or are doing, or to talk about my son actually going to a therapeutic high school, paid for by the city, because I was able to advocate for that. And I erased that a few times, to see how I would feel if I didn't explain that. It was really uncomfortable for me! I think that right there is THE wound, the big one, that one that drives us not to let the MLCer go, or to lose our confidence or our clarity.
I watched this little film on YT yesterday about gaslighting, a fiction film but I WAS that girl in that film, and I kept thinking they did not need to give her a black eye, many of these people do not hit. At the end of the film she writes on her mirror, YOU ARE UGLY, and then she rubs it out and writes, HE IS UGLY. But that takes YEARS to get there, to be able to even consider that the other one is the ugly spirit, whether it's MLC or was always there, that doesn't happen over a few weeks, to be able to see clearly.
Look at me now, eight years in, having done something or other to cause quite a few of you to care about me (thank you!) or to think I have grown or am wise or kind or whatever else you might think in the positive realm. And yet I am still that too, that girl writing, YOU ARE UGLY on her mirror, or on a post here, and still taking a month or two to think about it and even try to believe that I could be one of those -- the truly ugly one or the one who believes it of herself or the one who finally realizes that maybe it isn't true.
Something to consider, if you are reading this and are new on your journey -- or later on your journey, and battling that same demon. That need to justify yourself, it's part of your battle! The only thing we really seem to need on this journey is something to love us unconditionally and to give us a hug and say they understand. We aren't going to get that EVER from the MLCer and it may not even happen that you can get it from people around you. I get it, sometimes, through my faith, but most of my daily life does not include that, I have only one friend who loves me like that, and my family loves me more like the MLCer does. So I think as we are figuring out how to heal, we have to know that we need that, we have to face that we may not get that but that we don't need to explain to the MLCer, it doesn't work, it's a wound we have to heal on our own, to stop explaining! All we can do is give that love to others and accept that love when it comes our way....
Last edited by Gerda; 10/16/2105:36 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Something to consider, if you are reading this and are new on your journey -- or later on your journey, and battling that same demon. That need to justify yourself, it's part of your battle! The only thing we really seem to need on this journey is something to love us unconditionally and to give us a hug and say they understand. We aren't going to get that EVER from the MLCer and it may not even happen that you can get it from people around you. I get it, sometimes, through my faith, but most of my daily life does not include that, I have only one friend who loves me like that, and my family loves me more like the MLCer does. So I think as we are figuring out how to heal, we have to know that we need that, we have to face that we may not get that but that we don't need to explain to the MLCer, it doesn't work, it's a wound we have to heal on our own, to stop explaining! All we can do is give that love to others and accept that love when it comes our way....
I am this same way. I did feel like I had to keep explaining or justifying my feelings in my marriage, and I have felt I have to do that now with people in my life is discussing how I am doing during this time. It's very hard. After reading your recent posts and this last one, it's sinking in that I am doing this to try to help myself feel better at this point...like I have to justify or explain to others why I feel as terrible as I do. And then they will understand. I also think it comes from the gaslighting and trying to make sense of my feelings and confusion.
Now that I realized my H was a narcissist or at least had many of the behaviors, and with all the lies, I no longer feel the need to explain anything to him or to ask anything of him. I see now that it won't even matter or do any good. But I am stuck doing this with others in my life. And being told "you are so better off now, just be happy about that" feels awful (even if true) but you are right...it's up to us to figure out how to heal, and we need to face that others in our life can't give us that. No one else can really understand how I felt (or feel) and how hard I've tried to deal with the marriage and the divorce. But I really do want that validation and hugs, etc. The need is strong! It [censored] I won't really find it outside of myself. That is my current journey.
Gerda, you are such an inspiration. I've been following you for a while now, and you have been so strong through so many horrible situations. The advice the others gave you is plenty (no more from me). But I want you to know that I see your pain, and I am sorry you are going through everything you are going through. Teens are awful. ha! Stay the light, stay the love, and do your best to stay in your lane (I know it's hard), and your kids will see for themselves what your XH is like. Remember their brains are not fully developed yet...so thing won't be logical to them. But in time they will see things for themselves. And them seeing it for themselves is the only way that they will believe it for themselves. And, you can only control your side of the street anyway.
Hugs to you...and sending you strength. You are not alone. We hear you. And we are here for you.
El
Me 52, H 56 T10 M7, 2nd MR for both 2 Step Sons (19 and 21) BD: Fall 2020 D finalized: July 2022 XH Married AP soon after D day.
Once one has it clear within themselves they cease explaining their reactions. For reactions become a thing of the past.
Personally, I previously craved my reaction to the drama and craziness. The unbelievability of what happened had such a stellar-like component to it. I’ve spoken of my letting go of victimhood and then martyrdom. Just becoming DnJ D.
I still explain! Lol. I explain and suggest, with a hopeful and well intentioned desire. My view is more the explaining facts of the events rather than explaining/justifying my reactions to them.
Feelings are fleeting. Thoughts we can control. We influence and alter our beliefs.
Some values we strengthen and some beliefs we alter and others we need to discard. One belief we need to alter and let go of is our ego’s need to be right. This is not removing that need completely; for our ego serves a valuable purpose. It is letting go or discarding the idea of The Truth.
I have my truth and J has her’s. Each of my kids has their internal version of what transpired and therefore their truth and beliefs. Each of those is valid. And - this is the most important part - true!
Each and every view is true.
That tenet is a difficult thing to find. A difficult ideal to achieve. A hard lesson to learn and believe and live. Yet, such peace and contentment comes from such.
Abstractly, logically, rationally, I agree and believe there is one truth. However, I am not God. I cannot see all ends. I therefore cannot see nor come close to understanding all paths. I only have my wee window and view of the world. My truth of things.
J’s life is her’s. She made decisions and choices based upon whatever torment she is living. That is her truth. Her view. She is absolutely right! Until she decides she isn’t.
That sentiment is the same for any of us. We all hold to our beliefs and values; the underpinning, the definitions of our truth.
Beliefs, values, convictions are slow to change and therefore make excellent headings for life. Irrational feelings rise and fade, rational thoughts discover and dispel, both of which influence our core self.
Beliefs are both irrational and rational. They live within our core self. They are the wellspring of self, the source of our reactions. All of one’s reactions or irrational response to a stimulus is an expression of their deep seated beliefs.
When one really believes in more than one truth, the world becomes a lot better and a whole lot less bitter. The key is letting go our need to be right. Well, actually, our need for others to know we are right. Or the need for others to tell us they were wrong.
Truth really is within the eye of the beholder.
Life’s feedback provides input. Provides reinforcement and influence to what is true. To what is reality. One can ignore such things or embrace. Either way, their view is true to them.
Much peace comes from accepting another’s truth as valid. Acceptance doesn’t imply condoning. Another’s truth, their behaviour, their morals, one can accept, and not agree with or condone it. One doesn’t need to let someone else’s truth rule their life.
Of course, this requires finding that certain conviction within one’s self. Interestingly, most of society is wired against such. And therefore society is repeatedly reenforced with the ideal of absolute right and wrong. Which just perpetuates and further justifies this unaccepting view. Just watch anything on politics. Either side both see themselves as absolutely right in their righteous views. Only standing in the middle, can one see both.
The other interesting ideal that is perpetuated, there is only right or wrong. Win or lose. While in truth, there are many more than two outcomes or points of view. Win-lose, lose-win, win-win, lose-lose for example. These four outcomes are only seen when one realizes the other side. Our default is just our view, our truth. Win or lose. If we win they lose or if they win we must lose. When in fact a win-win scenario is possible, and hardly ever achieved. Of course, one has to realize something before one can work towards it.
Your H seems determined to drag his efforts towards lose-lose. Irrational hurt people tend to loose sight of what is a win or positive outcome. They get lost within the fight and will expend everything to achieve what they feel is a win.
Originally Posted by Gerda
At the end of the film she writes on her mirror, YOU ARE UGLY, and then she rubs it out and writes, HE IS UGLY. But that takes YEARS to get there, to be able to even consider that the other one is the ugly spirit, whether it's MLC or was always there, that doesn't happen over a few weeks, to be able to see clearly.
YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL.
Write that! Clearly!
H is just hurt. H’s ugliness just keeps you attached. Something to let go.
Originally Posted by Gerda
And yet I am still that too, that girl writing, YOU ARE UGLY on her mirror, or on a post here, and still taking a month or two to think about it and even try to believe that I could be one of those -- the truly ugly one or the one who believes it of herself or the one who finally realizes that maybe it isn't true.
It’s not “maybe it isn’t true”. It’s not true!!
Stop trying to believe and start believing.
Originally Posted by Gerda
That need to justify yourself, it's part of your battle!
Yes it is. And it will remain a battle until you decide it isn’t.
I know the pull of ego. The need to correct other people’s views and the misinformation. Lol.
You cannot win that fight. Our MLCers with expend incredible energies on their narrative. They have to. They absolutely have to!
XW flaunted her new shinny relationship with OM. And the male ego is a fragile thing. Lol.
I was replaced. Thrown away. And oh boy, did she let me know how poorly of a man I was. That is a poison that we all drink and need to transmute. I was broken and trusted her from 30+ years. Her words had complete and unfettered access to my core belief system. I understand and empathize the uphill struggle to believe something else.
The vague sexual innuendoes of her and OM were very hurtful. The not so vague innuendos hurt a lot more! Surprisingly, the outright non-vague non-innuendo telling me of her sexual encounters hurt less. We always imagine these things way worse than they are. Lol.
XW spread her story far and wide. Those that chose to believe her did and those that chose not to did not. My telling of my side to various folks, was, as I discovered, really for me. That stellar-like crazy unbelievable drama is quite addictive and it takes quite a lot of discussion and thinking to ramp down and let go of such a thing.
My path was rather quick. My situation being more compressed than most.
I attribute a lot of my success to two nights that happened very early on:
First, I gave myself to God. “I’m your’s. Let me become whomever I’m suppose to be.” There was so much going on. So much pain. I did not know what to do. I sincerely offered myself to the light. I decided to listen to the wisdom, to life’s feedback, and do and not just try. Through surrender, I gained everything!
Second, I begged God to forgive J. This was after a hellfire nightmare of the eternal torture and torment of J. I begged, on my hands and knees, by the side of my bed, in the complete darkness, for God to forgive her. Pleaded with Him, for J does not deserve such a fate. I realized then, I had forgiven her. When one advocates to the almighty on behalf of their ex, I believe that is a very good sign of letting go and compassion and forgiveness. God, knows infinitely more than I, and will, and is the only one capable of, judging her. Again, letting go and surrendering yields so much!
These are two extremely pivotal moments in my life. I share them with you.
Originally Posted by Gerda
The only thing we really seem to need on this journey is something to love us unconditionally and to give us a hug and say they understand. … I get it, sometimes, through my faith.
I do understand the path you are walking and empathize with the feelings you are experiencing. (((Hug)))
From DnJ’s dark path:
The one’s unconditional love you need is your’s. God already loves you unconditionally. You are seeking your own love of self and strengthening your realization of God’s love. That, is the very creation and fortifying of faith.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Elbereth, so great to hear from you and reflect on your reflections on my reflections! I think many of us here came to these boards thinking we had to wait out a MLC and discovering that in fact there was something there all along that we hadn't seen or that was lurking til the MLC pulled the cover off the dark box. In my case I am kind of glad it went that way because my journey brought me to faith. I am not sure that would have happened if I understood earlier. And thank you for the very kind words; I think I keep coming to the boards with the hope that I can help someone else avoid my path.
DnJ -- thank you for the treatise! I always love to have a convo with you over a good cuppa and a namomeemoonainoo bar.
I think we have gone down this path on a past thread, and I don't know which of us is not fully undestanding the other's full world view or how to get there -- but I see this differently. And I don't know if that's because of the difference in our MLCer or the difference in us or the difference in our actual world view. I often think the latter is quite similar but maybe not. And this can get complicated philosophically for an anonymous support forum, but, in short, I think that the end point of this subjectivity you describe is dangerous. Unless you only mean that this is how you are able to make sense of your W changing so radically and being so unreachable in her new reality. But if you mean, literally, that there are many truths, then no, I must leave you at the crossroads and make my way alone on the One Truth path many miles before I sleep, many miles before I sleep. Because I think that the end point of that idea is, for example, Hitler. And I am sorry if I am repeating something I said on a previous thread, I don't have time to hunt it down, but Hitler had a truth about how to save Germany and he really believed in it and wanted to do something "good" for his country. There was another truth, which saw his truth as pure evil. And only by seeing that as pure evil can we be clear on what we have to do -- e.g., go to war even though war is also evil.
It took me a long time to realize how dangerous my H was. I made many excuses for him in the service of standing for the marriage. Now I know how you can do both, but at that time I was not clear on it. And as a result, I allowed abuse and I allowed my children to witness that. That caused many other problems for my children that I am still trying to mitigate. I do not believe my children are safe around that man, and I do not know how far the abuse can go. I don't want to get into specifics here, but there can be no "your side of the street" or "they will one day figure it out" with some abuse.
There is also the issue of values. When they talk about friends or other people we know who are conducting themselves or their marriages or their parenting in a horrifying way, I am not going to be silent about that. I am also not going to be judgemental and holier-than-thou -- I often tell my daughter, for example, that we can pray for a friend who seems to be in trouble and that that person has her own story to work out in life. But I am not going to just "let them figure out" that stealing is wrong, or that a wild life sexually or using drugs is just another truth. I am going to find a way to show them how to have empathy and compassion for someone who is lost but make it clear that that person is lost. I actually see myself, among my friends and others, as one of the most hands-off parents, but also as one of the few who is very active about teaching values. One of my values is that evil is a real force in this world and that there are many ways to fight it. Forgiveness is the first way to fight it, but there are other ways too, some include physical battle against someone like Hitler -- and some ways allow a vulnerable child to protect him/herself. I want to equip my kids to do that, to make sure they know what it means to walk in the light and what it means to walk in the darkness and how it is possible for any of us, no matter what we have done or how we have hurt someone or destroyed something, to feel remorse and walk a new path. I don't know if Hitler was capable of that, on the extreme end, and I don't know if my H is capable of that. My mistake was equating that hope with our marital finances! I thought I couldn't protect one without protecting the other -- I thought I could preserve my hope that he could still be who I thought he was and that that meant I had to sacrifice protecting my home, my bank account, my credit cards, all that we shared on every level -- and we all know how that went.
There is an article called, "Beyond Narcissism – To Behold the Face of God," that offers a path through that mess for me. I don't think it's an easy question. There is a huge mosaic at my church that shows Christ descending into h$ll, and all these people suffering there. One of them looks exactly like H, so much so that I often can't look at that part of the artwork, but I pray there all the time, thinking about what it means to be in h$ll -- here on earth or after our time here. We know that to be the absence of God, or if you are not a person of faith, the absence of love, and we can all say our MLCer is in that way in h$ll already. I want my children to have compassion for that miserable state but I don't want them to be confused about it either. I don't think we should ever trash talk the MLCer or anyone else, but that we have to find a balance that is based on compassion.
And I will also leave you with a Chesterton quote --
What we suffer from today is humility in the wrong place. Modesty has moved from the organ of ambition. Modesty has settled upon the organ of conviction; where it was never meant to be. A man was meant to be doubtful about himself, but undoubting about the truth; this has been exactly reversed. Nowadays, the part of a man that a man does assert is exactly the part he ought not to assert–himself. The part he doubts is exactly the part he ought not to doubt–the Divine Reason…
We are on the road to producing a race of man too mentally modest to believe in the multiplication table.
―G.K. Chesterton
Last edited by Gerda; 10/25/2101:28 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
I agree and believe there is one truth. However, I am not God. I cannot see all ends. I therefore cannot see nor come close to understanding all paths. I only have my wee window and view of the world. My truth of things.
One Truth. God’s plan.
We are but a cog in the grand design. Singly important, yet incapable of conceiving of the entire tapestry that is being woven. Each of us sees our part and our view of the One Truth.
The ability to validate and see other people’s truths comes from the very avenue of wisdom’s birth - questions.
I ask near continually, “what if I’m wrong?”. That humble admittance of my lack of understanding of the grand plan probably brings me closer to its true wisdom. We all see only part. Through accepting our own limited view and realizing others views as valid and true, can one piece together more and more of the whole.
I question my view all the time. I listen to others; listen to the world; listen to the whispers of creation. One learns when one questions. One learns when one listens. God knows how many times I’ve altered and grown in this process. How many times my truth has evolved. That, in and of itself, is proof that one cannot know the entire One Truth. Everyone carries a different part of that whole. Growth needs one’s willingness to change.
Originally Posted by Gerda
A man was meant to be doubtful about himself, but undoubting about the truth; this has been exactly reversed. Nowadays, the part of a man that a man does assert is exactly the part he ought not to assert–himself. The part he doubts is exactly the part he ought not to doubt–the Divine Reason…
I believe in God’s plan.
What I doubt is that my view, knowledge, or truth is so complete that I can forgo considering someone else’s view or truth.
I doubt, or question, my understanding of the divine reason. I don’t doubt divine reason.
That’s life’s journey. Doubt and discovery. The journey is more important than the destination. Always has been.
Oh, by the way, most times my questioning attitude confirms and reaffirms the path I’m walking - compassion, empathy, forgiveness. It’s perhaps hard to explain how to follow such faith and yet not be blinded by faith.
Originally Posted by Gerda
But if you mean, literally, that there are many truths, then no, I must leave you at the crossroads and make my way alone on the One Truth path many miles before I sleep, many miles before I sleep. Because I think that the end point of that idea is, for example, Hitler.
I believe Hitler was not capable of seeing other truths. He and many were blinded by one truth.
If we are to part ways, I’ve enjoyed and been blessed by your company.
My love and respect
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I almost fell off my perch when I read that and had to look through my post to see where you could have found that idea!
That was just a METAPHOR, Green Cape! I meant leaving you at the crossroads of one truth versus many. We are two philosophers discoursing on truth. We will keep strolling through this Forum (PUN INTENDED!!!!!) discoursing even if I can't convince you or you can't convince me of this one particular thing.
In short, I meant that usually we are like the parents offering slightly different paths to the same idea to our confused children, but that this time we might actually have a really different idea and yet on those separate paths are still both kind and loving and God-loving and trying to guide our kids to the light, whether the kids are the literal kids or the LBS newbies taking their baby steps towards clarity.
(And you did not convince me. I mean, you didn't need to convince me of your greatness, that we know I know and all know. But I haven't figured out how to make my point clearer. I can only say that we have to read the world. We have to read the MLCer. (And of course we have to read Hitler or we end up like 95% of Germans, helping the project move forward out of confusion about the truth.) We must forgive the MLCer for our sake, his/her sake and our kids' sake. But we have to read the MLC clearly -- his/her actions, rhetoric, sense of justice, parenting, etc -- or we'll end up like.... well, like Gerda, 2012 - 2019. Maybe Gerda 1995 - 2019. Not to mention Gerda 2019-2021 trying to dig her way out of the outcome of 2014-2019.)
My last few posts have not been understood in the way I intended. Cause for reflection. Since writing is my thing. As well as rehabbing wrecks. I haven't reported on that in a while and sorely wish I could send photos. The cottage is coming along sloooooowly but nicely. Alongside the wreck of Gerda, slowly rehabbed.
Last edited by Gerda; 10/29/2104:17 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
I misunderstood given the force of your assertion. Never, in any part of my life to this point - online, IRL, anonymous, face to face - has my life’s journey, my believes and values, been equated to Hitler. Never!
Gerda, your words hold a certain power to me. I respect you and your views. And I listen. And your words are having an affect. Something will be strengthened, or altered, or discarded. I’m not sure which it will be. Still considering.
At 53, I do know how rare my world view is. How almost singular I am with my beliefs and convictions. It has served me very well in life. The middle ground. Looking to all sides. Most interesting solutions and resolutions are possible from that vantage point.
For what it’s worth, I do realize, and believe I understand, your view. You were well spoken and clear. Sorry my post didn’t convey that.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Such misunderstanding between friends with a long history.
I have had this philosophical argument about the endpoint of subjectivity with my crowd of intellectual friends many times. Usually a great evening with plenty of pounding on the table and ordering more drinks or cake.
Using a true villain or a true saint as an example is a good device to make an idea crystal clear in a discussion like that.
Did I ever tell you that my dad is a Holocaust survivor? I do not play around with the idea of Hitler!
How depressing to think that DnJ saw me or me seeing him this way!
Too many misunderstandings on my thread! Time to take a break!
Lots of love.
P.S. Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I just thought we were having a good talk and don't think that would have happened if there was a table and not an internet between us.
Last edited by Gerda; 10/31/2106:30 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Back in Usenet days (circa 1990), whenever someone invoked Hitler to make an argument, everyone would point out Godwin's Law--that any discussion that continues sufficiently long inevitably ends in Nazi references, and that Nazi references are too emotionally charged for there to be a reasonable discussion. The side first referencing him would be declared the "loser", there would be a chuckle, and the topic was closed as the conversation turned to other topics. You two both seem kind and well-intentioned. May this misunderstanding be quickly forgotten.
