Hello all. I'm new here but I'm very, very interested in giving DBing a shot and would love any extra tips on doing it successfully--I've been trying but backsliding here and there. Any encouragement would be great, too--i honestly feel like dying.
My husband (together 13 years, 3 kids 16-11 years old) announced a month ago that he is having an emotional affair with an old friend of ours, and wants a divorce.
I have been absolutely devastated for the entirety of that month. Panic attacks, not able to eat or sleep, sobbing all the time. (I have had the wherewithal to try not to do so in front of him.)
Overnight he went from my (admittedly cranky but awesome) husband to cold, and constantly on his phone or at this other woman's house.
My sister in law suggested reading DR, as her husband (my husband's brother) recently walked out on her and she had been reading it. I read it in about two days flat while also taking copious notes. It was the first hope I've felt in any of this. Browsing success stories here has been one of my few sources of hope since then.
When I have been able to go a few days applying a combination of the principles of 180 and LRT and GAL (side note, GAL feels very hollow right now, I'm sad all the time) he responds to me in markedly better ways, wants to tell me about his day, etc.
Then I'll, say, find a love letter from her to him about how sweet he is, when all I've wanted for years was his sweet side to reappear. Or he'll lie to me about where he's at and go to her house. And I mess up, out of all of that pain. I break the DB rules and bring her up. Or whatever. He told me tonight that the very next time I don't respect his space and privacy, he will move out (I just found that letter two days ago.)
We talked after the first week post bomb drop and I, desperate to keep him, suggested that since neither of us have a viable plan for moving out or any of the logistics of taking care of the kids, we just verbally agree to be separated but stay in the same house. We both love our home. I suggested that we work on becoming trusting friends and he is skeptical of that but somewhat in agreement. So that's our current status.
But it is so, so hard to see him all the time. Additionally, he still sleeps in the bed with me every night and is very much interested in being intimate up to three times a day. Our sex life has never been better but he tells me he's just using me until he's ready to move on. Having read the book, believing nothing that he says and only half of what he does, I don't respond to this and just focus on the fact that while he's saying such a vile thing, he's also kissing me. But it makes me feel insane.
He was talking to me constantly about how all of this is apparently my fault, for weeks. He even blames me for the verbal abuse he carried on throughout our marriage. But among all of these accusations I was able to glean some if not all of the ways that I did legitimately hurt him over the years. I was controlling and critical and often rejected his advances. I was bitter and angry and cold. I carried a huge load of anger through all of these years about the yelling, about a previous affair that we overcame, etc. As soon as he announced he was leaving me though, it was like that anger fell apart like the Berlin wall and all I have left is my love for him and my debilitating pain and anxiety over this situation. I feel like a brand new person without that anger and I can see how I acted clearly after 13 years.
I've got all my cheeseless tunnels listed and next to them, behaviors that are the 180 of each. I try to stick to them.
For the most part I succeed in being upbeat and positive in front of him.
When he tries to bait me into a blaming, finger pointing fight, I simply validate his feelings. (It feels so unfair to calmly apologize to him for my behaviors (which he simply doesn't like because they trigger his guilt) when he won't apologize for his atrocious and disgusting behavior and is actively moving forward with the OW. )
I love him, I love our family unit exactly as it is, and the horrific trauma surrounding my parent's divorce is enough for me to want to fight to the death for my marriage, even if just for my children's sake.
I've been going out with friends and being mysterious. Going to a support group for separated or divorced people. Going to see a lovely therapist to help me, rebuild me.
I'm trying to be sure to connect with my kids although they can tell I'm sad all the time but aren't sure why.
He and this OW actually had my oldest stepchild turned against me for most of this month but I wrote her a heartfelt letter and she has since come around. I'm actually applying some principles of DBing to restoring my robbed relationship with her, funny enough.
I want to know what more I can do. And I'm very confused by his behavior.
My husband is one that can completely close someone off from his heart in an instant but still be nice to them, because of his childhood trauma. And I'm afraid it's too late, so so afraid.
But tonight he ran me a bath. He's said he's excited for the bedroom later.
It's so painful to live this way. A lot of the time, I wonder if I should just cut him off sexually or something. However, sex is SO SO important to him, and I rejected him for so long, that I fear that would be a final nail in the coffin.
All of my friends say he's just having his cake and eating it too, and he is, but I think possibly, under that, he may still care and just feels completely swamped by guilt to the point where he's trying to run as far as he can away from what he sees as the source of these negative feelings, me. Maybe I'm in denial.
I get really lost in comparing myself to her, sometimes. She's beautiful and thinner than I, and of course she's such a great listener because she's a marriage and family therapist (yeah, how do you like that, a homewrecking MFT.) He's doing all the things he used to do with me, with her. Writing her beautiful letters, all of it.
However as part of GAL I've lost weight and started tanning (he always loved when I was tan.) I admit I've been so sad that I've been doing most of this for him though instead of myself, and he's always been very smart. He calls me out on trying to win him back and says there's nothing to salvage.
Any perspective would be welcome. Thanks all.
I’m sorry you’re here 😢
All of the people on this board have been through the heart wrenching pain and uncertainty of an unexpected relationship failure. You feel like your entire life is imploding. It feels like a dream, and grief and emotions control you.
In terms of DBing, you are doing all the right things. DBing isn’t easy - and it’s not fast. You will have slip ups all the time. It will take months of practice, re-reading the book over and over, and consulting with the forum for you to get better at it. Don’t be harsh on yourself if you slip up.
As for the rest of your message:
He told me tonight that the very next time I don't respect his space and privacy, he will move out (I just found that letter two days ago.)
Additionally, he still sleeps in the bed with me every night and is very much interested in being intimate up to three times a day. Our sex life has never been better but he tells me he's just using me until he's ready to move on.
He was talking to me constantly about how all of this is apparently my fault, for weeks. He even blames me for the verbal abuse he carried on throughout our marriage.
But tonight he ran me a bath. He's said he's excited for the bedroom later.
Based on your quotes above (if they’re accurate), then I’ll say this:
Your husband is gaslighting, manipulating and abusing you. This is domestic violence.
I won’t tell you what I really think you should do about it because I’ll be accused of giving non-DBing advice at the DB forums. However, what I will say is this:
You (and you alone) should immediately commence counselling. And not with a family therapist or relationship counsellor or someone who did an online course and got some BS qualification. I mean counselling with a qualified psychologist. Your doctor may be able to setup some sessions, or lots of EAPs have access to services like that.
Please make this your first priority.
Hello Rejoice
Welcome to the board. I am copying Cadet’s Welcoming thread for your reference. There are many good resources linked in it which I urge you to read.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm And Michele's articles.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation for a while, which just means your posts are to be reviewed by a moderator before getting displayed. Moderation is usually removed after new posters have created 5-10 posts.
Once your thread reaches 100 posts, it will be time for you to start a new thread and continue on that thread. It is a good idea to link your old thread to your new one, and even link the new one back to the previous one. That makes it easier for the folks following your story. (There is a help thread on linking in the sticky threads at the top section of the forum’s display.) A moderator will “close” your old full thread which prevents further posting to it. It is still available to read.
Post in small frequent replies on your thread. Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Post on other people’s thread to give support.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
DnJ
Hi kind, thank you for your response.
I am seeing a licensed therapist.
I know he's blame shifting and gaslighting here but I thought, according to the book, that it's very common for the WAS to say a lot of terrible things that they don't necessarily mean?
Thanks for the input!
Rejoice,
Sorry your in this situation, but glad you're here. Everyone who posts has been through something similar, knows exactly how you're feeling, and wants to help.
Would you give us some more background on the two of you and your relationship? How old are each of you? You mention 3 children but then also stepchild...are some of the kids yours biologically, or are they all stepchildren? I assume he was married previously then? Have both of you been previously married, and how did you meet? How long did you date before getting married?
Any encouragement would be great, too--i honestly feel like dying.
We definitely know the feeling. It is one of the most difficult things you'll ever go through, but you WILL get through it.
My husband (together 13 years, 3 kids 16-11 years old) announced a month ago that he is having an emotional affair with an old friend of ours, and wants a divorce.
Do you know how/when this start?
I have been absolutely devastated for the entirety of that month. Panic attacks, not able to eat or sleep, sobbing all the time. (I have had the wherewithal to try not to do so in front of him.)
This is very common - you're not alone. Good you have the wherewithal not to do it in front of him. Have you seen a doctor about the panic attacks and non-sleep?
Overnight he went from my (admittedly cranky but awesome) husband to cold, and constantly on his phone or at this other woman's house.
Was it overnight? I wonder as time goes on if you'll be able to look back and identify problems before then.
My sister in law suggested reading DR, as her husband (my husband's brother) recently walked out on her and she had been reading it.
Your husband's wife walked out on her too? What is their parents' marriage history?
I read it in about two days flat while also taking copious notes. It was the first hope I've felt in any of this. Browsing success stories here has been one of my few sources of hope since then.
That's great you're doing the reading. Keep it up!
Then I'll, say, find a love letter from her to him about how sweet he is, when all I've wanted for years was his sweet side to reappear.
How did you find it? Did he leave the letter lying around, or are you snooping in his phone/email?
Or he'll lie to me about where he's at and go to her house.
He is a lier and a cheater right now. DO NOT believe anything he says. He WILL blatantly lie to you.
He told me tonight that the very next time I don't respect his space and privacy, he will move out (I just found that letter two days ago.)
He's trying to manipulate you. He's already in the middle of an affair. What could he do worse than that? Maybe you should smile and say "OK" and call his bluff.
We talked after the first week post bomb drop and I, desperate to keep him, suggested that since neither of us have a viable plan for moving out or any of the logistics of taking care of the kids, we just verbally agree to be separated but stay in the same house.
Now you're trying to manipulate him. You're not going to talk and logic him back. It's an emotional thing for him.
I suggested that we work on becoming trusting friends and he is skeptical of that but somewhat in agreement.
Would you be trusted friends with someone who is lying, cheating, and betraying you?
But it is so, so hard to see him all the time.
IHS is incredibly difficult.
Additionally, he still sleeps in the bed with me every night and is very much interested in being intimate up to three times a day.
3x a day? Wow. He's getting a thrill by having both of you - it's boosting his ego.
Our sex life has never been better but he tells me he's just using me until he's ready to move on.
Ugh. Is that a turn on? It's openly admitting he's using you. He doesn't respect you right now. You need to respect yourself.
Having read the book, believing nothing that he says and only half of what he does, I don't respond to this and just focus on the fact that while he's saying such a vile thing, he's also kissing me. But it makes me feel insane.
I think you're only believing the half of what you want. In this case it sounds like he's actually being honest with you...as repugnant as it is.
He was talking to me constantly about how all of this is apparently my fault, for weeks. He even blames me for the verbal abuse he carried on throughout our marriage.
Sooooooooo common for the WS to blame the LBS to justify their affair.
But among all of these accusations I was able to glean some if not all of the ways that I did legitimately hurt him over the years. I was controlling and critical and often rejected his advances. I was bitter and angry and cold.
OK, good to self-reflect and get better...but also he's clearly gaslighting you. Don't let him put the blame on you for his affairs.
I carried a huge load of anger through all of these years about the yelling, about a previous affair that we overcame, etc.
I'm assuming it was his affair?
As soon as he announced he was leaving me though, it was like that anger fell apart like the Berlin wall and all I have left is my love for him and my debilitating pain and anxiety over this situation.
When you lose something all of a sudden it creates instability and you get afraid of what you stand to lose. Over time you'll see it differently.
I feel like a brand new person without that anger and I can see how I acted clearly after 13 years.
Easy for the LBS to feel like they're a changed person all of a sudden; less believable for the WAS/WS who's learned over years of behavior.
I love him, I love our family unit exactly as it is, and
Right now you're scared of change. If you keep doing the work (IC, reading, posting here...etc) you WILL be ok either way.
the horrific trauma surrounding my parent's divorce
How old were you?
is enough for me to want to fight to the death for my marriage, even if just for my children's sake.
You can fight all you want, but ultimately must understand it's not within your control. If H wants out, it's his decision. What you need to work on is detachment and acceptance. Then if it goes the way you're hoping now, great, but either way you'll be at peace. Easier said than done? Of course. But that's your direction...
I've been going out with friends and being mysterious. Going to a support group for separated or divorced people. Going to see a lovely therapist to help me, rebuild me.
Good!
I'm actually applying some principles of DBing to restoring my robbed relationship with her, funny enough.
Eveyrone here says it's good for all relationships - not just your spouse.
My husband is one that can completely close someone off from his heart in an instant but still be nice to them, because of his childhood trauma.
What trauma?
And I'm afraid it's too late, so so afraid.
Drop your fears and embrace your future.
But tonight he ran me a bath. He's said he's excited for the bedroom later.
Ugh. Sorry Rejoice but this guy is manipulating you and creeping me out.
It's so painful to live this way. A lot of the time, I wonder if I should just cut him off sexually or something. However, sex is SO SO important to him, and I rejected him for so long, that I fear that would be a final nail in the coffin.
Right now he's getting a high off having both of you. His ego, going through his mind he's "the man". However, it's not because he's respecting you. Personally I would not feed it any longer. You should strongly consider pulling the rug out from under his feet instead of playing along.
All of my friends say he's just having his cake and eating it too
They're right.
and he is, but I think possibly, under that, he may still care and just feels completely swamped by guilt to the point where he's trying to run as far as he can away from what he sees as the source of these negative feelings, me. Maybe I'm in denial.
This feels like you're projecting your hopes onto him. He might have some guilt - though his actions don't seem to be showing it - but it seems more like he's a manipulating gaslighter who's happy to play both sides.
However as part of GAL I've lost weight and started tanning (he always loved when I was tan.)
It's very common for people to lose 25, 30, 40 lbs. You'll see this in a ton of threads. Use this as an opportunity to eat healthier and exercise and make that progress permanent.
He calls me out on trying to win him back and says there's nothing to salvage.
So don't make the changes for him - make them for you!
Any perspective would be welcome. Thanks all.
Hang in there, Rejoice. We're pulling for you.
I'll try to answer in order.
I am 36, and he is 41.
We met at work 14 years ago, he was never previously married but had a 3-year-old and a two-year-old. I have raised these children and consider them fully mine, and I believe that for the most part they feel the same. We have one biological child, 11.
We dated and then lived together for 7 years before marriage.
His affair began about 2 months ago, it was a slow build of an intense emotional relationship. Love is being tossed around although they both deny having physical relations. He and I were trying to help her with an abusive ex-boyfriend, who happened to be his ex-best friend, when they apparently began to feel more for one another.
I suspected something was wrong the whole time, and eventually just asked him for the truth. He admitted on his own to the emotional affair, lots of texts, several phone calls, and lots of visits to her house.
The admission in itself was somewhat of a miracle, as in the past he has denied things even when I had solid proof. Which seems to say to me, that he is feeling somewhat guilty about this.
I have seen my doctor about the panic attacks and sleeplessness, and have a prescription. The drugs affect me somewhat badly, so I try to use them few and far between.
By an overnight change I mean he went from his usual mix of tenderness and fun and crankiness, to Stone Cold within the span of a day or two from telling me the truth.
Yes, my brother-in-law, my husband's brother, walked out on his wife and daughter a few months ago. This is definitely a reflection of their upbringing, they had two cheating parents who had an incredibly traumatic divorce situation in which my MIL abandoned my husband at 8 years old to move to another state, leaving him with his alcoholic and gambling addicted father. She took with her the brother that recently walked out on his wife, and he suffered a lot of abuse from her subsequent partners. After that. It was a really bad situation. My husband was often alone, the electricity and water would get shut off due to his dad's gambling, and he would have to find meals where he could.
I looked in his truck, and found the letter.
I was snooping, and I have apologized to him for that. I was quite concerned that since he and I are still sexually active, he may not be forthcoming about his activity with her and I may become subject to some disease. Not that that's an excuse for snooping.
Yes, he's previously had an affair, over a decade ago. I was able to mostly overcome it as he was repentant and it was clear it was just a physical thing--it hurts much worse that he's emotionally involved with someone now, as weird as that is. And it hurts far worse than that, that he's determined to split up our family and hurt our children over this.
I was 14 when my mother, sisters and I ran away from my abusive father. We all have good relationships now but my life was a wreck for at least a decade over it.
I think I covered his childhood trauma above.
Thank you for your insight.
Good Morning R
Again welcome. And I’m sorry you have found yourself in this unwanted situation.
There are many kind and compassionate posters with much hard-earned wisdom. I see you’ve already met a couple of them.
Ask questions, vent, tell us about your day, post. We understand and are here to help.
A couple of housekeeping items for you. I’m glad you have read the Divorce Remedy book. This is your playbook, keep it to yourself. Do not share it with H. He will not appreciate its wisdom. For the moment, H is not on your team. He is on team H. Also ensure you clear your browser history and cache after being online here. Especially if using a family computer. You don’t want H or the kids reading along.
It is interesting to see the parallel of H and his brother. Family of origin issues usually cut deep and those wounds rip open later in life.
…it hurts much worse that he's emotionally involved with someone now, as weird as that is.
Not weird at all. The loss of emotional connection hurts.
Affairs are staggeringly common in these situations. The affair is not about you. It’s about the cheating spouse and their inner turmoil.
I get really lost in comparing myself to her, sometimes. She's beautiful and thinner than I, and of course she's such a great listener because she's a marriage and family therapist (yeah, how do you like that, a homewrecking MFT.) He's doing all the things he used to do with me, with her. Writing her beautiful letters, all of it.
The affair partner, in the case OW, is just a symptom. A band-aid for H. She means nothing. You are the wife. She covets what you have. Your power and position. And she can never have it, for her deceitful path does not lead there.
Affairs are built upon lies and deceit. That is a very poor foundation of which to build a relationship. This foundation is akin to sand, it is always crumbling and shifting away. As such, people involved in affairs expend incredible energies in maintaining this shifty sandy base.
There is no love from such deceit. H is just consumed in infatuation. He and likely OW are using each other to escape their pain.
Their internal emotional pain. This inner torment of H is not of your doing. Regardless of what he says, nor how much he attempts to gaslight you. His path is about him!
I understand the feeling of needing to comparing oneself to the other person. Just look at her. Not appearance. I mean deeper. She is a marriage and family therapist involved in an affair which is actively working to break apart a family. Rejoice, do not ever place yourself less than her! Ever!
You are miles ahead of her. No need to ever belittle yourself. No need to compare to her. She is not in your league.
I'm very, very interested in giving DBing a shot and would love any extra tips on doing it successfully
You didn’t break H, so you cannot fix him.
We all start out thinking and looking for some magic words or something that will snap our spouse out of it. Wake them up to what they are doing, and what they are losing. DB is about us LBS (left behind spouse) stepping back and letting our spouse hopefully find their pain(s) and heal from them.
You have the gift of time in all this. Use it well.
When I have been able to go a few days applying a combination of the principles of 180 and LRT and GAL (side note, GAL feels very hollow right now, I'm sad all the time) he responds to me in markedly better ways, wants to tell me about his day, etc.
I want to know what more I can do.
Breathe.
Focus on you.
You’ve not mentioned focusing on you. You’re currently “doing” instead of “being”. Perfectly normal and understandable as you are just starting out. DB shifts your focus off of H and onto your life.
Give H time and space. Focus on you and the kids.
Yes, getting a life will feel rather hollow for a little while. Keep at it. Rekindle old hobbies, and try new ones. Go for walks, join a gym, learn a different language, go horseback riding, whatever. I’m sure you have lots of ideas and interests. Try them out and see what takes hold.
Let go H. The more firmly you hold on, the more he will struggle to be free.
We talked after the first week post bomb drop and I, desperate to keep him, suggested that since neither of us have a viable plan for moving out or any of the logistics of taking care of the kids, we just verbally agree to be separated but stay in the same house. We both love our home. I suggested that we work on becoming trusting friends and he is skeptical of that but somewhat in agreement. So that's our current status.
In house separation is a difficult path.
I’d stop the cake eating.
Becoming trusted friends, first requires that you are friends. H is not currently treating you like a friend. Or a loving wife/partner. Rejoice, just like the talk of OW, do not belittle yourself. You are worth better treatment. A mantra for you: We are not friends, my friends don’t treat me that way.
You need not tell him that. You show him.
Also:
I was quite concerned that since he and I are still sexually active, he may not be forthcoming about his activity with her and I may become subject to some disease.
Absolutely! Most valid! Do not let yourself get some STD.
You are the most important person in this situation. Everything here is for you. Healing and finding you. And it gives you the best chance at saving your marriage.
I look forward to talking with you again.
Have a great day.
D
I looked in his truck, and found the letter.
I was snooping, and I have apologized to him for that. I was quite concerned that since he and I are still sexually active, he may not be forthcoming about his activity with her and I may become subject to some disease. Not that that's an excuse for snooping.
You apologized for what? Having a suspicion and finding exactly what you were looking for? PLEASE (and anyone else reading this) never ever apologize for finding proof of your suspicions! I hate when a cheater tries to turn the blame around on to a snooping spouse! That is just flat out wrong. It is never ever worse to snoop than it is to be cheating and the cause of the snooping!
Yes, he's previously had an affair, over a decade ago. I was able to mostly overcome it as he was repentant and it was clear it was just a physical thing--it hurts much worse that he's emotionally involved with someone now, as weird as that is. And it hurts far worse than that, that he's determined to split up our family and hurt our children over this.
Rejoice, there is no way to put this. And so I am going to be blunt. There are two kinds of cheaters in my mind. One is an unhappy spouse that falls into another thing. (Note this does not make CHEATING RIGHT!) And then there are serial cheaters. Guess what the description of a serial cheater is? Someone that does it more than once. I am sorry to say that you may simply have a serial cheater here.
And likely his "it was only physical" last time was because the OW in that case made it clear that the affair would never go further than affair status. I am not a typical male, but I could never sleep with someone that I didn't have an emotional connection with. Even when I was single I never did the one night stand thing. Maybe he can, but likely if the affair was more than a couple of times there were emotions involved.
Finally, this comment struck me: "And it hurts far worse than that, that he's determined to split up our family and hurt our children over this." This is his second go around. The real question is why aren't you entertaining thoughts of splitting up the family over this? Unless he were to come back contrite, repentant and willing to agree to any and all of your terms, this is really the path you should be contemplating.
Thank you. I need to focus on detaching, I think.
Honestly I have considered ending things but then I look at my kids.
I look at all the wonderful things about my husband and I simply can't. For all the bad there's a mountain of good.
If there's any way at all these we can regain the love we had and be happy, I need to give it a shot. Or I'll regret it forever.
Rejoice,
DnJ and SteveLW gave you great advice. I'd reread their posts if I were you. I'll chime in as well...
I am 36, and he is 41.
We met at work 14 years ago, he was never previously married but had a 3-year-old and a two-year-old. I have raised these children and consider them fully mine, and I believe that for the most part they feel the same. We have one biological child, 11.
We dated and then lived together for 7 years before marriage.
Good background. You might add these relevant details (ages, length of dating/marriage, kids/stepkids ages...etc.) into your profile so people can reference easily.
His affair began about 2 months ago, it was a slow build of an intense emotional relationship. Love is being tossed around although they both deny having physical relations...I suspected something was wrong the whole time, and eventually just asked him for the truth. He admitted on his own to the emotional affair, lots of texts, several phone calls, and lots of visits to her house.
Sorry to say this, but there is a high probability they're lying about the physical relations. Most adults don't profess their love and have lots of visits at her house without getting physical.
He and I were trying to help her with an abusive ex-boyfriend, who happened to be his ex-best friend, when they apparently began to feel more for one another.
Why are they ex-best friends?
The admission in itself was somewhat of a miracle, as in the past he has denied things even when I had solid proof. Which seems to say to me, that he is feeling somewhat guilty about this.
Um...he is absolutely still lying. Most likely admitted just enough to manipulate you and avoid admitting more.
I have seen my doctor about the panic attacks and sleeplessness, and have a prescription. The drugs affect me somewhat badly, so I try to use them few and far between.
Good. Managing your health is your #1 priority.
By an overnight change I mean he went from his usual mix of tenderness and fun and crankiness, to Stone Cold within the span of a day or two from telling me the truth.
The change is (some of) the truth coming out. He can relax a little and stop pretending to be tender and caring.
Yes, my brother-in-law, my husband's brother, walked out on his wife and daughter a few months ago.
Interesting. Crazy how these things follow.
This is definitely a reflection of their upbringing, they had two cheating parents who had an incredibly traumatic divorce situation in which my MIL abandoned my husband at 8 years old to move to another state, leaving him with his alcoholic and gambling addicted father. She took with her the brother that recently walked out on his wife, and he suffered a lot of abuse from her subsequent partners. After that. It was a really bad situation. My husband was often alone, the electricity and water would get shut off due to his dad's gambling, and he would have to find meals where he could.
It is interesting to see the parallel of H and his brother. Family of origin issues usually cut deep and those wounds rip open later in life.
So often the family history is a compelling factor. H and his brother were modeled what is normal.
I looked in his truck, and found the letter.
I was snooping, and I have apologized to him for that.
I agree w/SteveLW - don't apologize for hiding evidence of cheating. He's gaslighting you, trying to turn the blame around when his actions are far worse. You were right to suspect and what you found confirmed it. You are not the bad actor here. Do not let him convince you otherwise.
I was quite concerned that since he and I are still sexually active, he may not be forthcoming about his activity with her and I may become subject to some disease.
Absolutely get tested. Again, your health is your first priority.
Yes, he's previously had an affair, over a decade ago. I was able to mostly overcome it as he was repentant and it was clear it was just a physical thing--it hurts much worse that he's emotionally involved with someone now, as weird as that is.
I don't know that it's weird. In general, men worry more about the physical whereas women worry more about the emotional. I share Steve's concerns it's a repeat situation though.
And it hurts far worse than that, that he's determined to split up our family and hurt our children over this.
That's his decision and you can't control it. As hard as it is, try to focus on what you can control...you and taking care of the kids.
I was 14 when my mother, sisters and I ran away from my abusive father. We all have good relationships now but my life was a wreck for at least a decade over it.
Have you talked to your IC about the possibility that your family dynamic and experiences as a teen running away from an abusive father potentially informed your selection of a husband?
Thank you. I need to focus on detaching, I think.
Honest question...are you able to detach from him while having sex with him 3x a day?
If there's any way at all these we can regain the love we had and be happy, I need to give it a shot. Or I'll regret it forever.
Kudos for standing for your marriage. Be true to yourself and do what's right for you and your kids and you won't regret it. But also note: it's not your decision at this point, it's his. There's no one thing you can do or say to "fix" the situation. The best approach you can take is accept and let go and focus on yourself and your children. IF he turns around, great. If not, it's nothing you can control so keep your head held up high and know you did the best you could.
You know what cadet always says.
Knowledge is Power
Oh wait thats me.
Don't concern yourself with snooping your just getting that knowledge.
They are ex best friends because the guy went off his bipolar meds and attacked him.
I have briefly talked about how my history has affected me but I'm mostly focusing on rebuilding my self esteem, etc.
I'm very sure that having sex is standing in the way of detachment, lol. I have been pretty much catatonic for the past month and not thinking about much...
Thank you cadet.
The gaslighting has been difficult to deal with.
I’m glad you’re already doing step 1 and getting professional help. Also, a second opinion can also be helpful.
I think step 2 should be no sex whatsoever, and comprehensive suite of STD tests. No matter how much you still love him, no-one should risk their own health.
If he has had an affair before, plus he is currently lying about this one (do you RELLY believe it isn’t physical?)… there’s probably been others too.
I can’t recommend highly enough that you stop having sex to protect your health and get tested immediately.
That's is good advice kind, thank you.
Honestly I have considered ending things but then I look at my kids.
I look at all the wonderful things about my husband and I simply can't. For all the bad there's a mountain of good.
If there's any way at all these we can regain the love we had and be happy, I need to give it a shot. Or I'll regret it forever.
Rejoice, I'm 100% for trying to save things. However, it is impossible to save things with a spouse that is in an active affair. Especially when that spouse knows without a doubt that they can come back at anytime and be taken back, no questions asked. Start moving forward with your own life and he might, just might, feel that he is really losing you. And that might trigger him questioning what he is doing.
But if he does end up coming back I hope you'll have a three strikes you're out rule. Divorce is tough on kids. But you know what's worse for them? Showing them that a spouse can treat you anyway they want with no consequences. Would you want your daughter to put up with what you are willing too? Just another thing to consider.
I have some questions for anyone willing to help me sort through my insane thoughts.
The sex for me was part of my 180. I had been so bitter with him before that I was withholding, cold, and angry pretty much all of the time. It's definitely been on my list of things that actually WORK, that plus positivity, confidence, and not bringing up anything about the R or OW.
I'm very very hesitant to stop something that seems to help us become so much closer when he was previously very cold, that seems like the opposite of the DB principles.
I have told him that I'm doing this on my terms, because I want sex, and that I'll be fine without him.
I'm incredibly torn on this topic. Please help.
If he is still sleeping with the OW then you shouldn't be sleeping with him. In any sense of that term!
Hello R
We do have some wild thoughts as we wind our way through our path. It does take some time to sort it out. And I am happy to offer a perspective for you.
There are a few things at play in your situation. The most obvious being the current affair. The other main items: a sex-starved or perhaps sexless marriage, H’s prior known affair, and the family of origin issues that likely are inducing internal pressures upon H. And your own past regarding living with an abusive father has likely tinted how your see men and what you are willing to put up with.
The sex for me was part of my 180. I had been so bitter with him before that I was withholding, cold, and angry pretty much all of the time.
Indeed that would have been an 180 in a sex-starved marriage. However, add in an affair and the dynamics change.
Our sex life has never been better but he tells me he's just using me until he's ready to move on. … I don't respond to this and just focus on the fact that while he's saying such a vile thing, he's also kissing me. But it makes me feel insane.
Using you until he’s ready to move on. That’s what he says.
Of course you feel insane with such mixed messages and ongoing gaslighting.
This has being going on for the past month. Time for another 180 methinks. Stop the cake eating.
It's definitely been on my list of things that actually WORK, that plus positivity, confidence, and not bringing up anything about the R or OW.
Defining “things that actually work” would come from your solution oriented goal setting journal and those small prior defined forward movements you’d be watching for. I’m certain speaking vile things yet still kissing you was not a goal. Don’t get drawn into his gaslighting and crazy-making.
I'm very very hesitant to stop something that seems to help us become so much closer when he was previously very cold, that seems like the opposite of the DB principles.
I would like you to read something from Michele, right from the home page of this very website under Free Advice.
“My Affair Just Happened”Affairs don’t just happen. They take planning, decisions making, effort, and intention.
Unhappy marriage don’t cause infidelity. Being unfaithful causes infidelity.
The affair, even if only an emotional one, needs to cease. H has to choose to alter his path. To end it. And unfortunately that usually requires the affair running its course. How long of a course that is, or what direction it will take, I don’t know. I do know marriage can survive infidelity and even thrive better than before, when both parties roll up their sleeves and do the hard work.
Right now, the lion’s share of that hard work is upon your shoulders. H has a pretty big pile of work himself, which he is (at this moment) just putting off.
I do understand how this appears counter to what you perceive as you and H being closer. DB and the 180s and those principles are rather counterintuitive at first.
I see for your immediate path forward: Find detachment and stop walking on eggshells. Focus on you, and let go H. Live your life and stand. And realize standing is not being still. DB is you working on what you can control - you.
I really liked the fact you read Divorce Remedy in two days and took copious amounts of notes. That shows a lot of investment. I’d ask you to read it again. A second time. Especially after some of the interactions here with the posters. I think you will discover many more ideas and understandings. Which will likely prompt even more re-reads of certain parts.
Stay strong girl.
D
The guys have weighed in with some great advice, maybe it's time for a woman's perspective perhaps?
But it is so, so hard to see him all the time. Additionally, he still sleeps in the bed with me every night and is very much interested in being intimate up to three times a day. Our sex life has never been better but he tells me he's just using me until he's ready to move on. Having read the book, believing nothing that he says and only half of what he does, I don't respond to this and just focus on the fact that while he's saying such a vile thing, he's also kissing me. But it makes me feel insane.
Ok, let's start right here. Why does it make you feel insane?
The guys have weighed in with some great advice, maybe it's time for a woman's perspective perhaps?
But it is so, so hard to see him all the time. Additionally, he still sleeps in the bed with me every night and is very much interested in being intimate up to three times a day. Our sex life has never been better but he tells me he's just using me until he's ready to move on. Having read the book, believing nothing that he says and only half of what he does, I don't respond to this and just focus on the fact that while he's saying such a vile thing, he's also kissing me. But it makes me feel insane.
Ok, let's start right here. Why does it make you feel insane?
You can't use logic to figure out his motives and actions. One of the biggest issues in my marriage was sex. W had/has a low sex drive. However, the last couple of months before BD she was actually initiating sex more than usual. Who knows how their minds are working. Maybe it was guilt on her part. Don't know. One thing is for sure- he is currently not the man you have always known and you will not logic your way out of this. Trust me, I've tried. Sometimes I forget and still try. Doesn't work.
The guys have weighed in with some great advice, maybe it's time for a woman's perspective perhaps?
But it is so, so hard to see him all the time. Additionally, he still sleeps in the bed with me every night and is very much interested in being intimate up to three times a day. Our sex life has never been better but he tells me he's just using me until he's ready to move on. Having read the book, believing nothing that he says and only half of what he does, I don't respond to this and just focus on the fact that while he's saying such a vile thing, he's also kissing me. But it makes me feel insane.
Ok, let's start right here. Why does it make you feel insane?
You can't use logic to figure out his motives and actions. One of the biggest issues in my marriage was sex. W had/has a low sex drive. However, the last couple of months before BD she was actually initiating sex more than usual. Who knows how their minds are working. Maybe it was guilt on her part. Don't know. One thing is for sure- he is currently not the man you have always known and you will not logic your way out of this. Trust me, I've tried. Sometimes I forget and still try. Doesn't work.
Mike, I'm sorry that was your experience.
My question for Rejoice still stands..
I want to know why the actions she described make her feel insane.
That's an important question for her to answer for me to try to help her here.
Hello Rejoice,
Sorry you’re here, but glad to see you are posting. This place has been invaluable for me.
I just caught up on your situation and one thing you said stood out.
We talked after the first week post bomb drop and I, desperate to keep him, suggested that since neither of us have a viable plan for moving out or any of the logistics of taking care of the kids, we just verbally agree to be separated but stay in the same house.
I said basically this same thing fairly early on in my situation, which has lasted about 9 months. My W said that she felt trapped and controlled. In an attempt to give her space and make her feel less controlled, I accepted that she wanted a separation, that I couldn’t do anything about it and told her I do not control you and you are free to make your own decisions. My intention was not to give her a green light to cheat, but that’s how she viewed it and has justified her current affair by saying I told her it was okay. Multiple times she has said “Even my therapist said it was okay.”
I’m not sure the advice others would have about this, but I think if you verbally agreed to do your own thing, make sure you are crystal clear about what that means for both of you. Ultimately, I think my W would have done what she wanted regardless, but I hate feeling like my poor word choice and lack of explaining my feelings about it has led to her using that single sentence to justify her cheating to her friends, her counselor, probably some family at some point, and even our teenage daughter. It was a single 2 minute conversation that I had forgotten about until months later that she continues to cling to.
Thank you for your question. It makes me feel insane because it's a constant back and forth, he will be sweet and then awful. I feel like I have whiplash from it. I don't even know what to believe anymore.
Thank you, yes, I suppose you can't reason with the unreasonable.
Thank you for your insight. I regret saying we could be separated but the other option was him filing for divorce so that terrified me.
Update
I spoke to him today, casually, about moving forward. I mentioned dating and things of the kind.
He became noticeably jealous.
We spent a long time together this afternoon after that, laughing and talking. It was a good time.
i think he went to OW's apartment afterward for half an hour or so.
I don't know how I'm supposed to survive this.
You're supposed to survive this by putting the focus on yourself, figuring out your core values, who you are, what you really want in a relationship, SEPARATE FROM HIM AND HIS ACTIONS.
think you can do that?
It's important, so give it a try.
Thank you for your question. It makes me feel insane because it's a constant back and forth, he will be sweet and then awful. I feel like I have whiplash from it. I don't even know what to believe anymore.
Are you sure that's it?
It seems to me that there may be more.
What are your core values? Are you compromising any of your values by sleeping with a man who tells you you are being used as a placeholder until something better comes along?
Are you compromising any of your values by sleeping with a husband who is being unfaithful?
Don't ride the rollercoaster with him. He didn't buy you a ticket.
Honestly I'm so lost and depressed and anxious that I just obsess and hurt most of the day.
I barely know what I'm doing anymore. Everything is confusing and overwhelming and painful.
I am going to work harder at getting back to me.
I'm going out the next three nights. I'm going to get a couple of tattoos that I've been wanting.
You are right.
as a friend recently told me ... tattoos are permanent. I'd wait, for now.
all you have to do for today is breathe.
Breathing sounds doable 😄
Hi Rejoice. I'm sorry you're going through this. It might be hard to fathom of it right now, when you are in the thick of your pain, but it will get better. I feel so much calmer and stabler now than I did three months ago. I second bttrfly's advice. Tattoos are permanent. Unless you are willing to spend more money on removal in the future (and I hear it's a painful process). Nothing against tattoos, of course, and I completely understand the desire to just do something. It's just that you're currently in a very emotional state and it's best to not make any big changes until you gain your bearings.
Oh, and good on you for going out! GAL is essential!
Rejoice,
Id like to express my compassion and care for what you are going though and to acknowledge your pain and confusion. You will be ok. Right now it’s important to take things one step at a time even minute by minute sometimes. Breathe, reach out for support from loving safe strong people who care and don’t judge. Keep posting here.
Rock
The guys have weighed in with some great advice, maybe it's time for a woman's perspective perhaps?
But it is so, so hard to see him all the time. Additionally, he still sleeps in the bed with me every night and is very much interested in being intimate up to three times a day. Our sex life has never been better but he tells me he's just using me until he's ready to move on. Having read the book, believing nothing that he says and only half of what he does, I don't respond to this and just focus on the fact that while he's saying such a vile thing, he's also kissing me. But it makes me feel insane.
Ok, let's start right here. Why does it make you feel insane?
You can't use logic to figure out his motives and actions. One of the biggest issues in my marriage was sex. W had/has a low sex drive. However, the last couple of months before BD she was actually initiating sex more than usual. Who knows how their minds are working. Maybe it was guilt on her part. Don't know. One thing is for sure- he is currently not the man you have always known and you will not logic your way out of this. Trust me, I've tried. Sometimes I forget and still try. Doesn't work.
Mike, I'm sorry that was your experience.
My question for Rejoice still stands..
I want to know why the actions she described make her feel insane.
That's an important question for her to answer for me to try to help her here.
I understand bttrfly. I guess I was trying to help her not feel insane. None of this makes sense to the logical part of our brain. It’s probably impossible yo understand the motivation of our WAS’s.
sometimes feeling insane is the way back to sanity.
there are no shortcuts here other than feeling the feelings and walking thru them.
keep breathing rejoice. just focus on that when the feelings come.
one trick is to take a deep breath in, the let it out through your mouth, counting to six as you let all the air escape.
next breath, count to eight on the exhale
next breath, 10 ...
keep doing that.
see how high you can go on counting through the long exhales.
this really helps ground and calm you down.
this is step one, ok?
Thank you, that's very good and practical advice!
Honestly I'm so lost and depressed and anxious that I just obsess and hurt most of the day.
I barely know what I'm doing anymore. Everything is confusing and overwhelming and painful.
I am going to work harder at getting back to me.
I'm going out the next three nights. I'm going to get a couple of tattoos that I've been wanting.
You are right.
Something you will hear repeatedly is to exercise. I’ll say again, get out and exercise daily. Multiple times daily if you can. Walking counts, going for a long walk helps me even when things seem ok. Strenuous exercise is better. It’s easier to quiet the voices in your head if you are struggling to breathe 😁. I’m still new to this, 10ish months in, so I’m no expert. I can tell you that I remember exactly how it felt in the beginning. I thought I would go crazy. I didn’t and things got better, slowly. I am in a better place than a lot of folks but that doesn’t mean it was or is easy for me. You will probably get tired of being told to GAL,180, etc. It’s understandable because it seems counterintuitive. It works. I’ve gone backwards the last few weeks because I haven’t followed the advice given here. The difference is like night and day. Before I found this site I was a miserable mess. DBing helps us survive the insanity. Might not save our marriage, that’s ok. It saves us, helps us move forward one way or another. I’m sorry you’re going through. We’re all pulling for you.
Thank you so much for your kind words. I will definitely focus on exercising!
I spoke to him today, casually, about moving forward. I mentioned dating and things of the kind.
He became noticeably jealous.
We spent a long time together this afternoon after that, laughing and talking. It was a good time.
i think he went to OW's apartment afterward for half an hour or so.
I don't know how I'm supposed to survive this.
This was a tough read. You sound like you’re really struggling.
Rejoice - I want you to think of yourself as an addict.
Your addiction is wanting to do and say normal things with him (like talk, laugh and pretend it’s like it used to be). That’s what LBSs do. They crave normality and what they’re comfortable with, so they make any and every excuse to get that short term dopamine high - such as having fun interactions with their spouse, or by making them jealous. And deep down, they know it’s bad for them. We see LBS after LBS who come here, and admit they need to have barriers and boundaries, but inevitably they come back a few days later with their tails between their legs - saying they kissed or talked or held hands … and now they’re spouse has disappeared back to crazy town or affair partner, and they are broken and depressed all over again.
You need to realise that every time you interact with him and try to force things to feel normal, it will be good in the short term - but very bad long term. You’re a drug addict who gets a short term dopamine hit and then falls off the cliff with huge withdrawals and a hangover.
The same thing will happen again if you allow it. You’ll try to draw closer to him, you’ll be nice, or intimate, or buy him a gift… and then he’ll smash your heart on the rocks the next day.
Please stop having these interactions with him. Talk to your IC about having boundaries in place to protect yourself. You need to break this addiction, because it’s only ever a short term high.
MikeP is right about exercise.
Here’s some tips I put together a few months ago.
You MUST commit for 30 days, because it takes time to see the changes.
Good luck!
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2939506#Post2939506
Update
I spoke to him today, casually, about moving forward. I mentioned dating and things of the kind.
He became noticeably jealous.
We spent a long time together this afternoon after that, laughing and talking. It was a good time.
i think he went to OW's apartment afterward for half an hour or so.
I don't know how I'm supposed to survive this.
You need to stop sleeping with him immediately. He's sleeping with her too. That puts you at risk for STDs. This is a health issue and you shouldn't be gambling with your health!
As far as being terrified of him filing, why does that terrify you?
Get the ball rolling on detaching. I know it goes against everything you're feeling right now.
If you are happy, healthy, content and thriving all without him, that is what will get his attenion.
Stop sleeping with him. Not only for physical health reasons, but it's damaging as he's made it clear he's using you, and you are taking it as more.
03/06/20 is my bombaversary. It's almost been 3 years. It kind of feels like yesterday and 10 years at the same time. So when I tell you that I never imagined I'd be this happy, or that I'd ever actually get here, I mean it. But I am so grateful for what happened because I really learned who I was during this time. I learned my real worth, and saved myself a ton of issues later in life. I never got back with my ex, but I could have several times. You'd be surprised how often that happens.
Keep focused on yourself. Live in the moment, and don't worry about tomorrow. Today has enough to worry about. Is there an old passion project you can lose yourself in? An old hobby you lost touch with you can focus on?
Rejoice, I'm going to ask you some very specific questions:
How much sleep are you getting, total #hours, or is it more minutes?
Are you sleeping in spurts, more like napping, or true sleep?
Are you able to eat?
When was the last time you ate a full meal?
How much weight have you lost in this past month?
When you read, how's your reading comprehension?
Do the words swim after more than a paragraph or two?
Do you need to re-read the same post several times before you fully absorb it?
I guess it terrifies me because it seems so final.
I love him with all my heart and even worse, I can't stand the thought of my kids going through this. My own parent's divorce left me scarred my entire life... I'm begging God every day to not let that happen to my kids. They are so secure right now and he is about to rip everything out from under them.
Thank you for your insight.
I am strongly considering moving in with a friend.
honey, don't do anything right this minute. read the post i made and answer those questions please. i'm asking for a very specific reason.
My sleep is pretty different every night. Fairly poor in the past week due to anxiety and late night conversations with H. Maybe 5 hours a night, which is better than it was the first week or so at least.
I do wake up fairly often through the night.
I'm not always able to eat but since the first couple of weeks I've been forcing down a small meal every day. Last night I had something that probably qualifies as a meal.
what about reading? how difficult is it for you to read and fully comprehend longer posts the first time through?
I'm doing fine with reading. Doing a lot of reading, actually.
Ok, Rejoice, here's the bottom line:
your brain and body are in a state of shock right now.
I asked those questions to get a baseline of where you're at.
I understand because I was there too, 8 years ago.
I couldn't sleep - I napped.
I couldn't read more than a paragraph or two at a time, and needed to re-read even short posts people made to me here several times.
I had panic attacks.
I constantly felt like I couldn't breathe.
I could not eat more than three spoonfuls of food, maybe once a day.
That wasn't enough.
I needed to stay healthy for myself and my son.
My parents had given me a NutriBullet
I made myself a smoothie every day.
*Vegetables
*Fruit
*Protein powder
*Spring water
*16 mushroom blend
I made one smoothie every day.
It took me all day to drink it.
I forced myself to drink the whole thing.
It helped.
Don't worry about eating if you can't.
Make sure you have a smoothie with the healthiest ingredients you can buy.
Start there.
You need to stay healthy for your children.
For yourself.
Start there.
Rejoice, here's a checklist:
1. Daily Smoothie
2. Breathing exercises. Breathe in deeply, then exhale to a count of 6. Next breath, exhale to a count of 8. Next breath exhale to a count of 10. Keep counting as high as you can.
3. When you're having a panic attack:
* breathe
* look around you. Name 5 things you can see.
*Name 5 things you can touch
*Name 5 things you can smell
*Name 5 things you can hear
4. Go for walks. You have to move that stress energy out of your body. Take the kids to the park, if one is nearby. Move your body.
Thank you bttrfly. I appreciate the practical advice.
got slow it down girl. back to basics.
I have briefly talked about how my history has affected me but I'm mostly focusing on rebuilding my self esteem, etc.
I have been reading the six pillars of self esteem by Nathaniel Branden. It was recommended by my IC. It has been very interesting and helpful. It deals with psychological health, achievement, personal happiness, and positive relationships. There are exercises in the books like finishing sentences that I work on. Just reading the book would not be enough for me. doing the exercises gets it in embedded in my brain.
I guess it terrifies me because it seems so final.
I love him with all my heart and even worse, I can't stand the thought of my kids going through this. My own parent's divorce left me scarred my entire life... I'm begging God every day to not let that happen to my kids. They are so secure right now and he is about to rip everything out from under them.
Coming from someone with extremely high anxiety, I’m telling you that detaching, following Sandy’s rules, exercising, reading self help books, stretching, meditation, meeting with my IC weekly, getting back into photography, etc. allows me to get out of bed in the morning, go to work and be the father that my kids need. None of this stuff came easy. Example: exercise, I had to make it a goal to just do 5 min so it wasn’t so overwhelming. Now I’m doing over 3 miles a day. You can do this!
I hate to keep piling on however I agree that the sex should stop. Let me give my perspective as a guy: You were in a sex starved marriage by your own admission. He betrays you. Now he’s getting all the sex he wants and then some. Then he still leaves to go visit the OW. Basically you are rewarding him for his bad behavior. Not only is there no incentive to change, he probably thinks he should have done this sooner. He is still planning to leave and probably thinks he will stop by for booty calls at that point. Some of the best sex my W and I have ever had was during the worst part of our situation. The night before she moved out may have been the best. Emotions were high, it felt so right and I honestly thought the connection was strong enough that she couldn’t possibly leave. She did, 24hrs later. From the highest of highs to the lowest of lows in the span of a day. I’m only saying this to give you a guy’s perspective. I understand your fear. It’s paralyzing and you will try anything to make it go away. Letting him use you, abuse in my opinion, will eventually kill whatever self esteem you have left. You deserve better. Please consider stopping.
Thank you, again, very practical advice!
Yeah. I think I probably need to go stay with a friend in order to detach in that way.
I have a very very hard time saying no to him, as I am also enjoying myself.
I have been very VERY careful to stress to him that this is a temporary, friends with benefits type arrangement, and that I'll be moving on soon. Which seems to make him rather desperate for me and even much more ready to initiate everyday conversations, etc.
I guess it terrifies me because it seems so final.
I love him with all my heart and even worse, I can't stand the thought of my kids going through this. My own parent's divorce left me scarred my entire life... I'm begging God every day to not let that happen to my kids. They are so secure right now and he is about to rip everything out from under them.
honey, your kids have someone you didn't have - adult you, who has seen the worst side of divorce. Don't you think that your experience as a child has prepared you to parent your children differently should a divorce happen?
think about that, long and hard. You're uniquely qualified to keep them secure in the midst of whatever happens,
but only if you ground yourself first - detach, to the best of your ability. It's a process. Baby steps first.
Also, you've mentioned leaving. You may be harming yourself in the long run if you do that. I know you don't want to think about this, but find out if there's something called abandonment in your state, and if you went to a friend's for a few days would that be considered you leaving the marital home. You may need to consult a lawyer. My point is, don't do anything that could potentially put you and the children at risk long term financially if the worst case happens. Is there a spare bedroom you could move to?
I do think I've heard of that abandonment and a lot of people have told me to definitely not leave the house.
I don't even know what to say to him to begin detaching in that way.
I don't even know what to say to him to begin detaching in that way.
Tell him you’re just not in the mood. As much as it’s been happening recently, that should be perfectly acceptable. You don’t need an excuse for what you do with your body.
I guess it terrifies me because it seems so final.
I love him with all my heart and even worse, I can't stand the thought of my kids going through this. My own parent's divorce left me scarred my entire life... I'm begging God every day to not let that happen to my kids. They are so secure right now and he is about to rip everything out from under them.
Rejoice two things.
One, divorce isn't final. No more final than marriage is. Lots of divorced couples end up getting back together. The problem with being terrified of it is that fear, not strength, informs your decisions. Fear is never a good reason to do something or not do something.
Second, moving towards divorce is sometimes the only way to bust it! I know that is counterintuitive but I can vouch for it. It wasn't until I embraced moving towards divorce that my wife started to question it herself. After insisting that divorce was what she wanted, no questions asked.
I don't even know what to say to him to begin detaching in that way.
Tell him you’re just not in the mood. As much as it’s been happening recently, that should be perfectly acceptable. You don’t need an excuse for what you do with your body.
"I will not sleep with someone that is involved with someone else."
Remember, keep these exchanges short and to the point.
"I will not sleep with someone that is involved with someone else."
You can( but don't have to but should) state this boundary. But the more important part is to live it. Get it in your in your core beliefs and values. You enforce it by your actions.
I really like how LW stated it. It was about you and not them. Much better than "I will not sleep with
you while you are with
her" type statements.
As a side note. We all have different lines in the sand. When I was single, my line was "Married women are off limits". Probing questions I could find out if the "I have a boy friend" was real or not. Was it a test? Sometimes. Was she living with a guy? If so, then "off limits". Dating is a different topic than we are discussing here, but determining the character of other people is another good skill to have. A found lot of married people acting single during my single days.
Thank you all. I feel like I'm coming out of a fog. I may still go stay somewhere else just for a few days in order to clear my head a bit more.
He has spent less time with her this week.
He's responded very well to my 180 behaviors, wanting to spend time with me and even getting very jealous when he mistakenly thought I was going out on a date.
I don't know what that means but I'm just going to have faith and continue to (admittedly slowly) detach.
It doesn't mean anything and the minute you assign meaning to it he'll do a 180 on you .
We have a saying around here: when he wants to reconcile you'll know it. When he doesn't, you'll be confused.
I'll go further:
I read it as he doesn't want you but doesn't want anyone else to have you either.
I'm sorry.
How are you doing Rejoice?
Hey, thank you for asking.
I'm getting stronger. I'm taking everything to God and trying to rely on that relationship for the validation and love that I'm missing, and I have more peace and joy as a result.
Most of the time now I'm able to say, my H's problems are not my problems. He's going to have to deal with them himself because I have no control over him. It hurts badly, but I'm detaching. This battle, possibly MLC, is one he has to work through on his own.
My H has noticed my changes. He's commented on them and seems rather flustered by them.
I've always been the only person he knows that can hold her own and stand up to him. He's always loved that, and somehow in my heartbreak I lost that bit of myself momentarily. Now it's back but in a gentler way, that validates his feelings.
I went to stay with a friend in another state for a few days, to help her after a surgery. He's made a comment about missing me. He called me last night. I will return home in a couple of days, and then he is scheduled to take all of our kids to see his family in another state for a week, which he's previously made it clear I'm not invited for. (A family vacation without Mom... Makes me so sad.) So there's going to be a lot of opportunity for him to miss me.
I plan to read read read, self care, do some things I want to do for me. I think it will be good.
Strength peace and hope o you rejoice. Well done.
Update
When I returned from helping my friend after her surgery H was very affectionate.
He says he missed me, he wanted to cuddle all night, it was quite interesting.
He has been steadily texting me more often, called while I was out of town to tell me a funny story.
Just some developments I thought I'd mention.
Update
When I returned from helping my friend after her surgery H was very affectionate.
He says he missed me, he wanted to cuddle all night, it was quite interesting.
He has been steadily texting me more often, called while I was out of town to tell me a funny story.
Just some developments I thought I'd mention.
Assign zero meaning to anything they say or do 🤷♂️
Tomorrow he’ll probably be a cold, manipulative [censored].
Welcome to the world of the LBS.
R, we've seen this a lot. As you detach the WAS feels the loss of control over the LBS and start to become affectionate and inclusive in order to reattach you. Remember he's moving on with her but until that is solidified he wants you as Plan B.
When will you know if it's real? First, the OW will be gone. And then after time has passed and he has been consistent (think minimum of 6 months), then you can start thinking it is real.
So you have to be careful right now. Going all in on this well likely result in him retreating back to his position of wanting out.
Remember time and consistency with OW out of the picture.
You were absolutely right, he did go back to pushing me away pretty quickly.
H approached me angrily twice since then with a lot of garbage from the past, blaming me for everything he's doing and stating that all of my changes are just temporary. I made the mistake of rising to his bait and defending myself a couple of times, although I knew better. So, he left on the trip with the kids on a rather sour note. I knew he wanted to leave on a sour note in order to justify what he's doing, and I let my indignation get the best of me anyway. Sigh.
I suppose it's a new day now. Trying to give myself grace for being a work in progress. Refocusing on detaching.
It is a work in progress. Remember, you can't change yesterday, but you can do better today. So focus on that and don't dwell on last mistakes except to learn from them.
You got this!
I second what Steve said.
Don’t be too harsh on yourself. Lock this experience in the memory bank so that next time it occurs you can think to yourself “I’ve seen this BS before, I’m not falling for it.”
The only way to learn how to walk is to fall over a few times. You’re doing great 👍
In terms of getting sucked into a discussion about your changes being temporary, you need to have some standard lines in your head that you’ve practiced and have ready to go.
Next time he says he thinks your changes are temporary, how about these:
a) “Hahahaha… You can believe it or not, I couldn’t give two sh**s what you think. My changes are for me 🤷♂️”
b) “Don’t worry, it won’t be you that benefits from the new and improved me 😉”
c) “Omg yawn-fest, this conversation is so boring, I’ve got better things to do. I’m going out!”
I absolutely love these replies. I've given some form of each of them at different times, but sometimes I get stuck.
I was just thinking yesterday how I need lines memorized for several occasions.
That's one of them, another one is when he starts in on me about all of the things I supposedly did to ruin our marriage in the past. So far for that one I've apologized for the things that I know I could have done better, made sure he knows I'm listening and validating him, and then hit him with a " I really hope you can forgive me someday and move on." Or, "sounds like you're really having a hard time moving on."
And yet another for when he constantly asks where I'm at and who I'm with.
So Rejoice. What are your plans for this week and what are you looking forward to today?
I'm reading a lot, relaxing, I've been hanging out with a few different friend groups and plan to continue to do so.
Since I'm posting past midnight my time, I'll answer about the upcoming day... There is an open art studio (I'm a professional artist) where are my friends and I paint together in the morning, and a worship service in the afternoon that I really enjoy attending.
With H being out of state things have been somewhat less stressful if I'm being honest. We talked on the phone for about 45 minutes tonight and he said that he's noticed my changes and would like to talk in person about OR when he gets home. I'm taking that with a big grain of salt because he didn't mention anything about ending things with OW.
That’s a healthy approach imo and way to go with GAL and using the gift of time ad space.
He told me yesterday that he wants to work things out, we've had several long phone conversations. Or not. He's going to cut off the OW.
Hmmm
What are your requirements? Do you have a list (for you) of what you require to take him back?
Did he give any specifics of what things he wants to work out? And any steps he believes are necessary for him to earn your trust?
Sorry, edit. Speech to text and I didn't catch it right away.
He told me yesterday that he wants to try to work things out, and that we need to talk when he gets home from his trip. We've had several long phone conversations. However, he has not told me whether or not he plans to cut off the affair.
So that is not promising.
He is not willing to discuss or be clear about anything until we are in person, probably tomorrow night depending on the weather.
Ok helpful clarification that nothing is clear from him whatsoever. The vets here can coach you a lot better than me.
What will help you prepare for this and stay on track, Rejoice?
I suppose I need to figure out exactly what I'm going to say and do on the chance that he approaches me tomorrow night stating that he wants to be with me and still maintain a relationship with the OW.
That seems to be my biggest fear of whatever might come out of this conversation.
Hi Rejoice.
You need to take a big pause here.
I think it’s important all the veterans like cadet, Steve, DNJ, bttrfly, R2C weigh in on this before you make any moves.
My simple advice is this - you need to make it very clear that he has to work to get you back. The worst thing you can do is show him that you’re sitting there waiting, because the instant he knows that he also knows he can still f around with OW in the background.
I’d pitch it to him as his last chance, with strict conditions.
My simple advice is this - you need to make it very clear that he has to work to get you back. The worst thing you can do is show him that you’re sitting there waiting, because the instant he knows that he also knows he can still f around with OW in the background.
My first thoughts are that it is highly unlikely that he will
approaches me tomorrow night stating that he wants to be with me and still maintain a relationship with the OW.
If he does you do not want to be in a three person relationship.
You need to have strong boundaries and absolutely do not want to be his back up plan.
If you need to not fight with him then just validate what he says,
I understand you want whatever he says.
And then walk away from the conversation.
Be strong.
The vets here can coach you a lot better than me.
I politely disagree.
One of the most powerful things the newbies can do is think about other posters sitch and use logic to give them sound advise. There is no emotional attachment. It then comes back to help you in your own sitch.
How many times do you think I have thought about other peoples sitch, then be able recognize it in my life and respond much better than I would if I just did what I felt like?
He is not willing to discuss or be clear about anything until we are in person, probably tomorrow night depending on the weather.
Until you are firmly into piecing, do not reveal your cards.
You should have a clearly defined list of non-negotiables. You do not share this list with H. He has to come up with them on his own. Most likely, it will come up short. You let him know "That is not good enough". You do not tell him which are good and which are not or which are missing. MAKE HIM WORK FOR YOU. Softly reject him. Be sexy and confident.
You should have a mind set that you are really enjoying your new freedom. You are not sure you want to take him back, but you are willing to listen. There is a fine art to this.
As far as talking in person, I would be gone. Dinner, or the movies or some other activity. Make him work for you.
When you do have R talk (which he initiates) , your job is to STFU, be present and listen and be skeptical of everything. Let him prove his words with his actions and behavior.
I wish you well. Do not let fear control you.
Sorry, edit. Speech to text and I didn't catch it right away.
He told me yesterday that he wants to try to work things out, and that we need to talk when he gets home from his trip. We've had several long phone conversations. However, he has not told me whether or not he plans to cut off the affair.
So that is not promising.
Some people would say as long as their spouse is fooling around, they are not interested in working things out.
Other people would say, "You know what? I'm ok being part of a three way relationship. I'm ok waiting this out regardless of what other people think."
Still other people would have yet a completely different take on this situation. There are as many people as there are opinions.
The worst thing anyone can do, IMHO, is to take a survey. So what do you do instead?
Don't worry about anything or anyone else's opinions, mine included.
Figure out what YOU want.
Meditate.
Pray for guidance.
Sit quietly, trusting that the answers will come.
Then act accordingly.
You need to be completely true to yourself, AS YOU ARE TODAY, and when it's time to take any action do so FREE FROM FEAR.
What do I mean, AS YOU ARE TODAY:
* grief changes you
* betrayal changes you and the dynamic of your relationship
* you know who you were when you were single
* you know who you were in your marriage
* figure out who you are NOW, post BD
THE ONLY WAY to figure that out is to put in the work: quiet, peace, prayer/meditation.
Deep work which requires time, effort and patience.
I strongly suggest you read the archives and study the women who posted here: Sotto, Cat04, Grace, Rosalinda, to name a very few.
Read and keep re-reading the DR MLC chapter, if you think that an MLC is what's going on with your husband.
DO understand that he is not on your team at the moment, so treat him accordingly. What do I mean:
* Don't play games - don't be deliberately vague to make him jealous. That's baby stuff and stupid. He doesn't need to know any details about where you're going or who you're having dinner with if you're going out, but keep it vague because he's no longer in the circle of trust. Don't keep it vague because you're hoping for a reaction; that will come back and bite you in the @$$ every time.
* Snarky may feel good in the moment, but doesn't necessarily further your goals. In other words - don't get into a race to the bottom. Does anyone really want to win a race to the bottom? If you're in that race, and you win, what have you actually gained? My experience is it's much better to be kind, compassionate, yet firm and no-nonsense, striving to always take the high road.
Plus, bonus points because it infuriates the hell out of the spouse - hey I'm no saint - I said striving to take the high road. We're allowed to enjoy watching them squirm from time to time, given what we're put through.
That aside, by taking the high road you will get respect. They may not show it or say it in the moment, but trust me, you will get validation on this down the road. It's never ever wrong to take the high road while refusing to be a Persian carpet for someone to wipe their dirty shoes on as they walk all over you towards the door, or try to turn the door into a revolving one.
* DO understand that it's ok to listen, validate and respond with, "Thank you for talking with me about where you're at. I'm not ready to respond yet, as you've given me a lot to process and think about. I'll let you know when I've thought about this some more." Wash, rinse and repeat that as often as necessary ... see my next point.
* DO not be pushed into a conversation that could be detrimental to your end goal, BUT before you can even know what your end goal is YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT IT IS YOU WANT and WHAT YOUR PERSONAL BOUNDARIES/DEALBREAKERS ARE.
* DO be honest, but non-committal until you know what you want.
* DO treat him like you'd treat a nosy co-worker who wants access to more information about your personal life than they have a right to know. Be polite, but you owe zero explanations that you don't want to give. This is hard to do if you don't know what your personal boundaries are. How can you uphold them if you haven't spent time really working on knowing what those boundaries are?
* DO understand that you deserve someone who loves you as much as you love them, is as honest, loyal and loving as you are. Is that your husband? Is he capable of that level of accountability, selflessness, honesty and loyalty? Does that remain to be seen? If he's truly in a MLC, it takes much longer than a few weeks or months to come out of that, with or without another party in the mix.
But most importantly, do YOUR work. In my experience, it took
months to get my mind and heart to really separate myself mentally from my marriage, my husband, my family so that I was just me, Bttrfly, envisioning my life moving forward, what my core values were post BD, how I wanted to embody them regardless of the outcome of my marriage, what kind of relationships I wanted with friends, family, co-workers, even strangers. By doing that work, and doing it with vigilance and dedication, the rest became crystal clear.
This is the real work, and within that work are the real answers to any newcomers' questions.
The vets here can coach you a lot better than me.
I politely disagree.
One of the most powerful things the newbies can do is think about other posters sitch and use logic to give them sound advise. There is no emotional attachment. It then comes back to help you in your own sitch.
How many times do you think I have thought about other peoples sitch, then be able recognize it in my life and respond much better than I would if I just did what I felt like?
Reviewing others' situations is important, but DB is counter-intuitive.
You cannot simply learn how to DB without being challenged along the way by people who have come before, earned their stripes and are willing to help.
Over the past 6 months at least, if not longer, I've watched vets challenge posters, only to be told they were too harsh, or not to post on their threads any more, or whining about where's the safe space, or the worst yet - dumping and running.
You don't learn a darn thing when you're in retreat.
You learn when you're challenged.
You learn when you dig in and really look at your own part in your marriage, your behaviors, your attitudes, your responsibilities.
Anything else is theoretical and frankly, doesn't lead to the kind of growth that changes you from the person you were when your spouse BD'd you, or when you first got here.
Without change, your spouse has no reason to come back.
Why would anyone come back to what they already left behind?
Where would anyone here be if there were no vets who had tried and true experience to impart?
We've been finding that out lately, haven't we, to the community's detriment.
When someone isn't valued, they aren't likely to stay.
I cannot thank everyone here enough for the advice.
I just don't have the words to express how wonderful you all are.
Some of the things said are difficult to hear, but they are all right on.
H is en route back home right now. He has said that we will speak on our relationship either tonight or tomorrow. I will update.
Yes it is.
This is a perfect example:
He has said that we will speak on our relationship either tonight or tomorrow. I will update.
I am not looking for answers to these questions, but for you to think about.
How many choices on how you (Rejoice) respond to this? How would you normally respond while you were married? Before you were married? When you were single? Now? How many options that you have not considered?
I recommend being gone...that could be the completely wrong solution for you, but the perfect response for someone else. Or the other way around. We do not know. You just have to evaluate all of your choices, make a choice and live with the consequences of that choice, good or bad. You can then evaluate the effectiveness of that choice and use that as part of your decision making process in the future.
Trusting your gut feeling helps.
Ask yourself this: Is what I am about to do or say going to bring us closer together or push us farther apart? What is my goal?
I would have an exit plan.
H: I want to R talk now.
W: Okay. I have about 10 minutes. I have plans to meetup with friends and need to leave at 5:45 (or whatever).
Thank you.
I went with the advice to not be home when H returned. I came home a bit later and then left again to take D(16) to her bio mom's house.
While H was out of town I had gone to meet a (very platonic) male friend, to hang out and have some company. So H wanted to discuss how that made him feel, when I finally got home. (I've chosen to be pretty open with him about my whereabouts, so far.) I informed him that, as he is having an affair, there is really nothing to discuss about my activities. He alluded to wanting to discuss a future for us, but he was very tired from the trip and we have not had OR talk yet.
I have an overnight bag packed and in my vehicle, and my dad on alert that I may come spend the night. If he initiates talk, and what he envisions for our future R is unacceptable to me, I'll be informing him that I'm moving forward without him. He will be upset enough that I will need to let him cool down overnight.
I'm not willing to share, bottom line. I'm worth way more than that.