Caution note added by dbmod: this is the AFTER THE LAST RESORT TECHNIQUE... after you've tried everything else. These things can also end your marriage.
For those of you hurting and searching for your answers...
Setting them free is the key...
It will also begin to set YOU free...
Love works best when it is freely given..
This means to those of you who have a wayward that your chances to reconcile will be maximized when you really set your wayward free to go. They have to feel that they are totally free.... As Dobson says.. Let the cage door open and let them out...
Funny thing is that once they have their freedom it suddenly doesn't have the same pazazz as they once thought it would. They have been trying so hard to get out of your grasp that they didn't have time to think about what they would feel once they were really free of you.... Think about that
I know this from my own experience with women and from my own observations...
Any thoughts? Anybody looking for help in setting them free?
The faster you do, the faster things progress. Not only for YOU but maybe even for the whole relationship...
I have heard many people say "I don't want to look back and say that I didn't try everything"
Have you really tried setting them free? for good?
i'm having the most difficult time letting go.
my anger is the culprit.
i know i have to.
i wish i knew why it was happening.
i can't let go until i know the truth.
i know i may never get it.
and it keeps me angry.
So, you are telling me that you are choosing to prolong your process. Even though letting go is the key, you are not going to let go? So you are choosing to take the road of failure?
I believe that it is very possible to be angry and yet let go.
Who says you have to follow your feelings? Isn't that what is making you angry about your WS? That your wayward is following their feelings?
IF you never get the truth are you telling me that you will always be angry?
You may want to dig deeper into that anger. Anger is many times just a cover for a deeper emotion. What is the deeper emotion or emotions? Dig deeper for it. What is it that is really causing that anger? Once you find THAT answer is when you can get past it. What you think is causing the anger may not be the real truth. It may be someting else. Study up on anger.
i'm not going to hijack this thread.
my thread is in 'separated'. i'm angry enough there.
you are giving good advice to the folks here.
i have read some of your posts.
you give a lot of good advice to the LBHs here on what would make them attractive to their WAWs.
what about LBWs? what are we supposed to do?
I'm curious, some say that your advise doesn't work for a spouse in MLC and that's why you don't post over there.
(for example:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1953347&page=10)
Would you agree?
No. I don't agree. How do you know that I haven't been giving successful advice for years to people that have a spouse in MLC? If they can self diagnose who is and isn't in MLC, then I
can say that I have worked with people that could be diagnosed with the same thing.
My advice can also work if you just wait 2 or 3 or more years like the MLC advisers point out to be ready to wait and be patient etc. etc.. My advice of letting go could also take up to 5 years, like their advice...
Be careful with people who are diagnosing things as MLC by listening to a BS on an anonymous site. Not only could they be very very WRONG in their diagnosis, but in their advice EVEN if it is "MLC".. a term that is very loosely used. A term that is one that gives false hope to a person who doesn't want to face the other more correct diagnosis... which is.. the WS left them because their feelings changed and they found someone else and are having an affair...
By saying your wayward is in MLC gives you hope.
Show me how many examples on the MLC threads of the experts telling a newbie that they have come to the diagnosis that their wayward was NOT in MLC....
That should be your key to be careful on using that as a crutch because you don't want to come to terms with what may be the real reality..... From my observations on this site it could almost be said that every single WS must be in MLC.
So, be prepared to hear that it may take years and years of pain and misery and waiting.. and even THEN your chances aren't any better than they are if you just let go now and chalk it up to an affair.
Your choice.
I don't know how someone can know if my advice doesn't work on MLC'ers if I don't go on there and aren't giving advice to any. Doesn't add up. Jack what's his name is just angry at me from something a while back. I think I get on his nerves.
That's what I thought.
I think your advice is spot on. Just hoping that a wonderful lady over there, Mila, might finally be willing to try something other than 'standing by her man'. I don't think she reads newcomers much.
so how can i be angry and still be able to let go?
(((((Gucci)))))
A term that is one that gives false hope to a person who doesn't want to face the other more correct diagnosis... which is.. the WS left them because their feelings changed and they found someone else and are having an affair...
By saying your wayward is in MLC gives you hope.
About. Time.
I remember trying to wrap this label onto my H as well so long ago i seems...
Over time I have come to realize MLC is nothing more than an excuse for poor judgement and extremely bad behavior...
In my opinion, MLC is more for the left-behind spouse, it allows them to "excuse" their wayward spouses behavior because they can't face the fact that their spouse is doing whatever it is that they are doing.
What is even sadder is the LBS will wait "years" because they just can't accept the reality that is in their face.
It is much easier once the LBS realizes they are worth way more than what is in front of them, accept what has become, take note that this is the only life you get, drop the rope and move on.
In six years and well over 15,000 posts here, I have noticed another similar -- but related -- dynamic to all of this.
POSTERS who are uncomfortable with the thougher methods often slowly gravitate toward the MLC forum, from the Newcomers and the Infidelity forum. Oh, sometimes they'll try the affair-busting/tougher-love approach without success (and of course, NO one can guarantee success, as the wayward spouse has a lot to do with it!), and so one can't fault them for wanting to try something different. That's not who I'm talking about.
I'm talking about DOZENS of people who NEVER DO try the more confrontational, firmer approaches advocated in Newcomers and Infidelity, get tired of being reminded that they're being doormattish, and then -- ((poof!)) -- you'll find them over on the MLC forum, where the advice feels more COMFORTABLE to them.
I'm not sure where I stand on the whole "is MLC real" thing. It's probably a lot like ADHD in kids: real, but WAY over-diagnosed.
I've only seen one of two methods ever work with a wayward and/or cheating spouse: either Allen A's consistent, boundary-laying, affair-exposing, throw-everything-you-got-at-'em approach . . . or, Robx's/Gucci's "You know what, I agree, maybe this is best as I'm tired of your crap behavior anyway/time to move on" approach. Or perhaps some combination of the two.
Puppy
It took me a long, long, time. Lots of anger, depression, fallbacks, and god only knows how the list can go on finally ending at divorce unitl I finally let her go once and for all.
To set example of Gucci's awesome post here.....
6 months after I let her go finally, she came back.
I'm not sure where I stand on the whole "is MLC real" thing. It's probably a lot like ADHD in kids: real, but WAY over-diagnosed.
I avoid the MLC area like the plague. I often find it comical how many LBS' bury (read as subconsciensly DENY) their OWN problems and contributions and all the sudden have a PhD in psychology and "know" the only problem is their wayward is "in MLC".
I don't read nor post in MLC.
I am in 'separated' because that is where I am at now.
If there was a forum for h's who leave their w's for their toxic parents, you'd find me there.
. But such a forum does not exist.
My anger is preventing me from detaching. I know it. I have been angry so long and I have been getting great support from coach and Forrest. But every time someone asks me about my sitch, it is like reliving the ordeal.
I repeat stuff hoping to find something different but it is always the same. I am looking for something that would make me feel some compassion so I won't be so angry. But I never find it.
You know what prevents me from trying? I feel that my sitch is so unique that these methods may not work. I have tried to find a similar sitch as mine and I can't find one. My sitch would be a challenge to you.
Women are ATTRACTED to men with EMOTIONAL STRENGTH... strength in times of stess. Strong when all around them is crumbling.. THAT is the strength she will respond to.
Pulling this over here.
To get there you don't need to understand what your WAW is thinking but understand what she is feeling. Why your actions are making her feel the way she does. Confidence, poise, and self-control are actions you take as a man that make a woman feel attracted to you and safe in your presence. Doesn't mean you don't have fear but have the courage to handle it the right way. You have to be emotionally strong to lead like this.
Use what currently works, understand what doesn't work and why you keep doing it anyway, find a new behavior, try it and keep it if it works. This works for me -TEA.
Thoughts proceed
emotion and emotion proceeds
action. Your woman needs to know her man can control his emotions to take the right action when needed. This is a primal instinct that is hardwired in us.
Stay thirsty my friends.
Cheers
Coach
Coach and Gucci,
Thanks for this thread. I am planning on giving my wife the "letting Go" speach that Gucci outlined for OIN.
Question: We are still living together although we don't sleep together. How to detatch when were still in the same house?
Question: We are still living together although we don't sleep together. How to detatch when were still in the same house?
You need to include some basic info in your signature/profile.
How long together/married, kids?
This will help a lot.
Time.
How do I do that.
Do I have to put the info in new everytime
Question: We are still living together although we don't sleep together. How to detatch when were still in the same house?
Two answers that I would say would work..
1st.... ONE of you has to move. "WS, I have done some thinking and I have decided that this just isn't working out for me. I think we should move toward separating and divorce and I think it would be wise if we start it asap. We have a few issues to work out, but the first one is that I think you should find another place. Maybe move to your moms or your friends or get your own place for now, but I want to separate need some space.
I will give you two weeks to find a place and get moved. If you can't get everything moved in two weeks, we can store stuff in the garage for a few more weeks until you get situated."
(said firmly, matter of factly an yet cordially.. As if you will even help her by letting her leave stuff at the house for a small period of time...)
If she says she won't move and is firm on not moving...
Then YOU move out. Get your ducks in a row. Staying and living together is a no no when you want to show them you are moving on down the road and letting go.
2nd choice.... Start socially interacting with the oppostie sex and have the time of your life while doing it. Text one of your new social friends day and night and at all hours. Laugh on the phone loudly and deeply while your wife is within hearing distance(usually works best when that social friend just happens to be the opposite sex.. ..ony friends of course
).... all while leaving her alone...
those are the best two options
hi everyone
sorry if this is a hijack
I can see how this approaches works for woman but would you recommend a similar approach to a WAH in an affair? My H left me, an independant minded woman, for a weak, clingy one. How is that? Strength and agreeing with him as per your precription have sent him more towards her not away.
Wel, in the case of an affair (especially when there are kids involved, there's my modified version of Gucci's 2 step approach:
"You want to be with OP? Fine, get eff out of my house"
Then proceed with step 2.
If she says she won't move and is firm on not moving...
Then YOU move out. Get your ducks in a row. Staying and living together is a no no when you want to show them you are moving on down the road and letting go.
i hate to jump in on this and put a negative spin on it.
but is there any legal implications on moving out?
can the spouse claim 'abandonment' and then take the entire house if the d goes through?
just looking out for the poster.
sorry if this is a hijack
Hijacking IS allowed on this thread...It is even welcomed..
My H left me, an independant minded woman, for a weak, clingy one. How is that? Strength and agreeing with him as per your precription have sent him more towards her not away.
I see he has been gone for over TWO YEARS.. I see that you say that you were depressed... You seem to have also begun to believe that the OW is weak and clingy. I usually try not to take what a BS tells me as the gospel of what is REALLY going on.
Here is the bottom line in your situation ....
He says he's in love with OW and wants no more to do with me.
Is he any different than you or I when we feel we love someone?
Would another man be able to pull YOU away from a man you love?
Then why would you think it would be different for you or me?
This is your agree with him answer. "OK, I realize that you love her.I don't know why I didn't understand that is what you have been saying all along. I get it. You LOVE HER."
It has been long enough for you.. Your best chance is to bring another man into your life that your WS sees that you are getting very interested in. He will not be coming back until that happens. He may not come back after that happens. However, I encourage you to stop waiting for him. It isn't working. Find another man that WANTS to be with you and treats you like you are a queen. Suddenly your WS will turn your stomach.
Sorry, but that is your answer.... For you.. and maybe even for him..
and if there are no kids involved?
i'm going to repeat my question above.
great advice on how a LBH should act/be.
what about the LBW?
like smileuk, i'm independent and strong.
my h left me for his needy and clingy mother.
i thought being independent and strong was a good thing.
but apparently, it drove my h away.
but is there any legal implications on moving out?
can the spouse claim 'abandonment' and then take the entire house if the d goes through?
That is covered under the "get your ducks in a row" part of the equation....
MAKE it happen.. Take CHARGE... Cover your own butt..
One of you HAS to go.. I would encourage you to take the initiative and push THEM out.. If not... YOU leave.. One or the other.. It won't work living together... It will still end up with one of you leaving. It works better if you get them to leave early while they just want it over than it does to wait and they then will fight back on every issue.. Down to who gets the toilet paper left on the roll
what about the LBW?
like smileuk, i'm independent and strong.
my h left me for his needy and clingy mother.
I don't accept your premise. It is difficult to give you the answer you are looking for when I don't agree with your diagnosis of your H. I really don't believe for one minute that he left you because or for his mother. Your mind seems to be made up on that issue. So is mine.
It works better if you get them to leave early while they just want it over than it does to wait and they then will fight back on every issue.. Down to who gets the toilet paper left on the roll
gucci is
very right on this.
take it from someone who has been there.
and yes, it does get extremely petty and ugly.
i got through it but it's not over yet.
gucci .. why does this happen? can it be overcome?
fighting over material things has overshadowed his reason for d-ing.
i'm working away at being attractive again and making sure he sees that others are interested in me. even though we are not in the same house, we play squash at the same club.
i'm doing the work but progress is slow.
i'm working away at being attractive again and making sure he sees that others are interested in me.
Your premise is wrong. Whether or not he sees others are interested in you is irrelevant from your point of view in the situation.
If you are doing this for him, then your intentions are undermining you.
Then YOU move out. Get your ducks in a row. Staying and living together is a no no when you want to show them you are moving on down the road and letting go.
2nd choice.... Start socially interacting with the oppostie sex and have the time of your life while doing it. Text one of your new social friends day and night and at all hours. Laugh on the phone loudly and deeply while your wife is within hearing distance(usually works best when that social friend just happens to be the opposite sex.. ..ony friends of course
).... all while leaving her alone...
those are the best two options
Yes.
I moved out, but to the small apartment we have on our property. My W sees me everyday, which plays out well. Since I GAL, I started being more presentable, am wearing that Axe stuff you see on TV(yes it freaking works like the commercials), leave at odd times even if it is to go to the park to collectivly think or read DR/DB. I have also shaved my sideburns that I wore since God knows when. These things here has made W so jealous.
Everytime, my W text me and calls me to see where I am at. Of course I eitherdo not respond or give a one word answer. She has already told me this gets perturbs her. Also, as soon as I come home W wants to know where, what, why, etc. I have been. She'll storm out to go back to the house. She either A) comes back B)starts texting to talk more.
As Coach say "be catnip". W wants it...meow.
and if there are no kids involved?
I stress if there are kids involved because it assures the kids, there won't be any fighting in the house late at night when mommy/daddy finally comes home from her/his date with OP and the message that mommy/daddy dating OP is moraly unacceptable and will not be tolerated.
i thought being independent and strong was a good thing. but apparently, it drove my h away.
Like gucci, I disagree with your premise that he left you for his mother, nah. I know a gentleman here who also said his W left him because her daddy is a "powerful successful business man who" who belittled the H because he didn't add up to everything daddy did.
Horsesquash in both cases.
Without knowing your situation, but yet you adiment to say twice that you are stong and independent, THAT is what I think drove your H away. Maybe I'm pulling the brass root of what happens when you ass-u-me, but I'm willing to bet you wore the pants in the household. After time, and alot of ridicule from his buddies, a man is gonna walk, and find a woman who is weak and quiet that HE can walk over and finally wear the pants for once. Purely henced why WAS' leave the marriage for the EXACT OPPOSITE of the LBS.
Just say'n
I believe that a few of the women who are saying they are "independent and strong" have got it backwards.....
It seems you are saying you were independent and strong or at least you want to believe that you were, while you were in your relationship...
Let me use my wonderful wife as an example of how I view an independent and strong woman...
Mrs. Gooch is the most flexible, giving, thoughtful woman I have ever known. She does things for me WITHOUT asking.. She would dig ditches with me all day long if I needed her help. She allows me to lead and yet still gives her opinion if necessary.. But always in a very gentle kind spirit. She walks by me and touches me just because.. She tells me how great I am.. She playfully makes fun of me when the Gooch is full of himself.
Weak and clingy????? Not in your life... That isn't weak an clingy. I WANT her to show me how much she loves me. Why wouldn't I? I dont want her to show the strength and independence you are talking about WHILE IN a love relatinship.. That is silly.
HOWEVER... The Gooch knows her well enough to know without a shadow of a doubt that if he EVER took advantage of her by having an affair or any number of other treatments of her that are unacceptable...
Mrs. GOOCH would get real strong real quick.. She would blot me out of her life and be as strong as she needed to be.
THERE is the difference ladies... I think most all of us men enjoy and like to be with a woman who thinks we are all of that and a loaf of bread... The difference is when we test you. If you fail those tests of your inner strength, then you are destined to lose him. We do need a little challenge to keep us on our toes...
Read the thread from "Mystik"....
She is exactly what I am talking about.. Loved her husband dearly... He was her whole life.. Nothing wrong with that..
HER MISTAKE is that she failed and is still failing to RISE UP AND GET STRONG NOW... NOW is the time for her to show him what she is made of... It hurts to see her failing and I read and see her answer, but can't get through to her because she is too focused on the "poor pitiful me".. She doesn't want get him back bad enough if she can't see how getting strong would very possibley bring him back.
I really don't believe for one minute that he left you because or for his mother. Your mind seems to be made up on that issue. So is mine.
then what did he leave me for?
i am looking at the surface.
i haven't looked deeper because it could be so many things.
but i look back at things that have happened over the years, and it all goes back to his parents.
he valued them more than me.
what's your explanation?
why does this happen? can it be overcome?
fighting over material things has overshadowed his reason for d-ing
Believe it or not... Do you know that many of us men actually just like to be contrary? Hard to believe huh?
The woman says "the sky is blue today"....
He says.."Oh, I don't think it is so blue today"
She says while in a store together..." I really like the color of that dress on that rack"
He says, "I don't. We can't afford it"
and so on goes the intereaction.. argumentative, angry, emotionally distant, negative, unhappy acting...
So.... I am sure there are men reading this who are nodding their heads in agreement with me saying that "yes, I HAVE done those things and I can't believe I did."
Fight him on what is important to you. Don't let him bully you or make you fear a fight when it comes to dividing things up in divorce. Leave it to your attorney and tell your H that it is in your lawyers hands and noting you can do about it now...
Believe it or not... Do you know that many of us men actually just like to be contrary? Hard to believe huh?
Very, very true! I use to watch my grandfather amuse himself by pushing grandma's buttons. The more contrary he became...the more frustrated she'd be. He loved it! Passed a lot of boring times for him. Everyone could see what he was doing, but grandma would take the bait everytime.
It’s true I was depressed prior to him leaving but had begun to feel better just before he left. Needy– my H words not mine, to quote ‘I need someone who needs me’, the OW is a friend of mine I know her well and independent minded she’s not. I’ve filed and have had other men hanging around. The more I move forward the angrier he becomes. That’s what I find so confusing.
He’s only told one of the kids that he loves her not me so I can’t suddenly tell him that I get that he loves her. He hardly speaks to me so it wouldn’t come up.
And yes you’re right sometimes he does make my skin crawl.
My question was theoretical as much as based on my experience but thanks for taking the time to answer on a personal level.
Believe it or not... Do you know that many of us men actually just like to be contrary? Hard to believe huh?
that's just immature.
when a guy acts that way, you just want to say "grow up".
but i get it.
Fight him on what is important to you. Don't let him bully you or make you fear a fight when it comes to dividing things up in divorce. Leave it to your attorney and tell your H that it is in your lawyers hands and noting you can do about it now...
material things aren't important to me.
the twisting of the law by h is what really bothered me.
i hired a good lawyer who demanded only honesty from me.
i have been honest. i have not been vindictive, conniving, or greedy.
i am being me. if i walk away from this m, i can walk away with my head held high and no regrets on my actions.
this is what is important to me.
but i will fight for what is mine. nothing more.
i read your interpretation on being independent and strong.
i think you make a good point. at times, i think i was too independent when maybe i didn't have to be.
i did things for him without him asking me to.
i was strong at times but i also had my jessica simpson moments.
i observed a lot - what made him smile, what made him proud of me, and what didn't.
where i failed to observe properly - in the bedroom.
he was afraid to ask for what he wanted.
and i took that as 'all is good'.
he probably wishes my jessica simpson moments occurred in the bedroom.
i wasn't exactly 'sexual napalm'. :P
Hi Gucci,
I'm just going to jump in;
"Any thoughts? Anybody looking for help in setting them free?
The faster you do, the faster things progress. Not only for YOU but maybe even for the whole relationship..."
I could use some help. I just started no contact a couple of weeks ago, using 3rd party for child exchange, after finding out that my H has been living with OW.
We don't have another court date (status hearing) until next December, because the judge tired of us not showing up for prior hearings (he didn't want to appear.)
I think it's time to go onto giving him complete freedom.
I was thinking I would send him an e-mail letting him know that I was moving this forward & my attorney would be handling things from here.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Sunny
I was thinking I would send him an e-mail letting him know that I was moving this forward & my attorney would be handling things from here.
You are moving forward and setting him free, but you feel the need to send him an email telling him this?
You see the contradiction there?
I was thinking I would send him an e-mail letting him know that I was moving this forward & my attorney would be handling things from here.
You are moving forward and setting him free, but you feel the need to send him an email telling him this?
You see the contradiction there?
AGREE.
The "speech" needs to come in naturally in context.
I was thinking I would send him an e-mail letting him know that I was moving this forward & my attorney would be handling things from here.
You are moving forward and setting him free, but you feel the need to send him an email telling him this?
You see the contradiction there?
AGREE.
The "speech" needs to come in naturally in context.
Hey Puppy, I kinda like the way TimeHeals thinks. I nominate him to be a member of the secret society of DB Pinheads.
Hey Puppy, I kinda like the way TimeHeals thinks. I nominate him to be a member of the secret society of DB Pinheads.
I second the motion! Dday, too! All those in favor???
In favor here as well
easy .. easy...
sometimes the WAS aren't the only ones in a fog.
us LBS can be too.
just need a strong gust of wind or something to wake us up.
i think you also have to understand that it takes a long time to wake up and walk away.
"Any thoughts? Anybody looking for help in setting them free?
The faster you do, the faster things progress. Not only for YOU but maybe even for the whole relationship..."Maybe this should have come with a "For newcomers only" tag.
Sunny
Hey Puppy, I kinda like the way TimeHeals thinks. I nominate him to be a member of the secret society of DB Pinheads
.
This must be a lot like the "Better-late-than-never/Master-of-the-obvious" Award I hear I have also been nominated for.
: )
I see this as your sandbox.
Gucci, you and I have never had a problem as far as I can remember, I could be wrong, I am growing older. : ) A dissagreement? A verbal bashing? Doesn't even ring a bell.
I disgree with the way you approach some issues. The cut and dry of it, this OR that.
MLC? is OVER-APPLIED.
Strange to hear me say that since I consider MLC my sandbox?
It is true...MLC is the last 'hope' Area.
It is also not for me or anyone there to kill someones hope. The death of hope is a personal thing, like putting down your own dog.
Hope is hope, always will be. False hope? cynical for something that is unlikly to happen maybe even impossible, but you 'hope' for the long odds.
We also advocate and advise to grow as a person and to lose the codependancy that is so common with the new posters. Do we coddle? Yeah a little bit.
Do we do things differently? Hell yeah.
Do we dismiss New Comers like some of you have dismmissed MLC? No. We do things differntly and some of those things do not mesh we or at least I do say that alot.
Does MLC exist?
It seemed to fit my wife. So I believe in it. But to just dismiss it? Hell the numbers are rough but I'll stand by them roughly half the mental health professionals aren't sure if it is real.
I also absolutely totally agree with your set them free take on it.
We actually say MANY of the same things at the most core level.
Our tactics are different, and all of us want to help people through some of the crappiest times of their lives.
For something totally off the subject.
Where or why did you pick Gucci Loafer as your name? I have always wondered that.
I really like this thread. This board is great and full of tons of information but I found it difficult to read through so many sitches and glean the important parts when I first found this site. I'd love to see more single-topic threads like this. Like how long until your WAS came around, examples of how people managed to drop the rope, etc. The infidelity forum seems to have a more of those types because of the exposure issue.
I have found that setting my WH free has been the most helpful in my situation. I would have done it from the start if we didn't have a son together, facing the destruction our son's family was almost inconceivable to me at the beginning. Since I've let go of the anger and stopped caring what he does and with whom, I get a lot of reconnecting attempts from WH, which I ignore for the most part because I think he just wants to make sure he's still got me wanting him back. Of course I don't much want him back anymore, which helps. I have now almost perfected softening up a smidgen along with moving on and dropping the rope. I guess they go hand in hand but it's hard to get the balance right.
I've gotten a lot of advice from Allen A on the infidelity board, and he recommends no softening up and to ignore reconnecting attempts while your spouse is still in an A. I did that for a while, but my WH is not crazy in love with OW, seems to be more friends with benefits, and she's still living with her H and as far as I can tell my WH is having some sort of second thoughts. There is no way I'll go running back but I'd love to hear what any other veterans think about how I should respond to WH's overtures, and hopefully other posters might find this helpful. He also thinks I'm too strong and independent, so cutting him off as Allen A recommended totally reinforced that for him, and I think is almost the opposite of dropping the rope because you're trying to control them by not dealing with them while in an A. He puts a ton of thought and effort into his posts which I appreciate a great deal but I know there are other opinions too.
He also thinks I'm too strong and independent
Not buying this part at all, so that throws the rest of your post into question.
Emotionally strong is a problem? As opposed to... a basket case?
Independent is a problem? As opposed to... somebody who freaks out if you go to the store alone for 5 minutes?
Not buying it.
You sure this isn't code for something that rhymes with
witch?
(for men, it sounds like
El Passo)
It is neither strong nor independent to be rigidly inflexible, intollerant, overly critical, and so on.
I hear people say that all the time: He/she is strong and independent, and what it really mean is that they are uncompromising, highly structured, and intollerant.
Aside from that, why would you listed to somebody who is cheating on you? It's one thing before there's cheating going on, but after the cheating starts it's all poop that can't even be used to fertilize your lawn.
Gucci, my stbxh told me he has uncertainty about filing for D and will alwasys have doubts that this is the right decision (he is living with OW though). I want to "set him free" and "set me free" by doing so but DAMN IT am feeling stuck since he told me that. It gives me hope and I really can't have hope if I want to detach (that is me, I think). Any advice on how I can let go knowing this?
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!
he has uncertainty about filing for D and will alwasys have doubts that this is the right decision (he is living with OW though).
Great, when is he kicking the bimbo out and living alone like a big boy with grown up morals?
Seriously, either you are a backup plan (and always will be when somebody else comes along), or he has some serious character issues.
Which is most attractive to you right now?
Setting them free is really the only choice.
People are not possessions or articles and therefore holding onto anyone who does not want to be held onto can never work. Sometimes we hold onto ideas and dreams i.e of staying married or or maintaining a family unit but we cannot hold onto the people who want to walk.
It is purely fear that inhibits the giving of the "Dobson" speech. Fear that if you say they can leave they will leave. But they have already left anyway. If not in body certainly in mind and spirit. The speech is really an outward declaration that YOU get it. A way of letting THEM know that YOU do not wish to be complicit in the current state of play. A way of retaining some measure of dignity for crying out loud.
If someone is dead and you do not say they are dead does it make them alive?
Setting them free is a fearless action. Fearlessness can be reckless in some circmstances but in others it can also be attractive. If someone thinks you will be broken at the thought of setting them free and you DO IT, doesn't that immediately change the entire dynamic even if they do not return? You immediately appear stronger and more resilient. Some power returns to you.
does letting them go and detaching mean accepting that the m is over and not worth salvaging?
that's the vibe i'm getting.
and i thought the whole db forum was to help people save their m's.
TH - if your wh came back, what would you do? you've detached to the point where you could care less.
Detaching means that you release expectations and attachments to what your spouse may or may not be feeling. When the bomb drops, you find yourself analyzing every move that the WAS is making and trying to make sense of it.
Detaching is to let go of what you can't control. Only they know (or not) why they do what they do. You can't "tell" them how they should act or feel. They have to find out themselves. So you let go and let them find their own path.
It doesn't mean that you don't stop caring for them. It's just that you understand that they have to do the figuring out and not have you "try" to figure it out for them.
TH - if your wh came back, what would you do? you've detached to the point where you could care less.
Well, it's my WAW (really run away, so RAW). No gay marriage in TN.
I don't know what I'd do. She can't just decide to come back and come back though. I know that much. My vote is the most important vote there is if that ever happens.
There was an EA involved (serious character issues need resolving). Not that I am an angel, but I didn't cheat, and I have been adressing my problems and letting them go.
There was NO WAY to save my marriage the way it stood. We both needed to change to have a new marriage. I was willing. She was not. That's how things stand.
This is a good thread..
I finally "gave up"...."let go" and I actually feel better. I had an agonizing 5 mos before I did it. I too was holding on to my family for dear life but I realized I didn't want someone who didn't want me.
It still hurts but I feel better now. I don't have to look at the clock to see when he's coming home. I don't have to listen to any of his lies anymore. I don't have to watch how much alcohol he drinks.
Here I thought I was setting him free but it was ME who was set free...
Luv
There was NO WAY to save my marriage the way it stood. We both needed to change to have a new marriage. I was willing. She was not. That's how things stand.
isn't this true for everyone who is here?
the marriage 'as is' cannot be saved.
both sides must change.
Not that I am an angel, but I didn't cheat, and I have been adressing my problems and letting them go.
how do you know that the problems have been addressed and that you've let them go?
one of the issues i had was intimacy.
initially, i thought .. well, when i don't feel an emotional connection, then i don't want to be intimate.
easy, right?
wrong. it went deeper. i verbalized for the first time why i had intimacy issues. it opened my eyes.
ok, how do i know that i've addressed the issue? i'm not about to go out and try it with someone.
how do you know that the problems have been addressed and that you've let them go?
I didn't say I let them all go. Some things I still am working on.
the marriage 'as is' cannot be saved.
both sides must change.
Yes, but only about half of us have to deal with EAs/PAs on top of all of that, and there's just no getting down to working on things while that goes on, and then you have to wonder if it will happen again if that issue in your partner isn't dealt with.
: )
I see this as your sandbox.
Gucci, you and I have never had a problem as far as I can remember, I could be wrong, I am growing older. : ) A dissagreement? A verbal bashing? Doesn't even ring a bell.
I disgree with the way you approach some issues. The cut and dry of it, this OR that.
MLC? is OVER-APPLIED.
Strange to hear me say that since I consider MLC my sandbox?
It is true...MLC is the last 'hope' Area.
It is also not for me or anyone there to kill someones hope. The death of hope is a personal thing, like putting down your own dog.
Hope is hope, always will be. False hope? cynical for something that is unlikly to happen maybe even impossible, but you 'hope' for the long odds.
We also advocate and advise to grow as a person and to lose the codependancy that is so common with the new posters. Do we coddle? Yeah a little bit.
Do we do things differently? Hell yeah.
Do we dismiss New Comers like some of you have dismmissed MLC? No. We do things differntly and some of those things do not mesh we or at least I do say that alot.
Does MLC exist?
It seemed to fit my wife. So I believe in it. But to just dismiss it? Hell the numbers are rough but I'll stand by them roughly half the mental health professionals aren't sure if it is real.
I also absolutely totally agree with your set them free take on it.
We actually say MANY of the same things at the most core level.
Our tactics are different, and all of us want to help people through some of the crappiest times of their lives.
GREAT post!!
Puppy
does letting them go and detaching mean accepting that the m is over and not worth salvaging?
that's the vibe i'm getting.
Nope. Absolutely not.
It means that the marriage isn't worth salvaging
at any price. It's NOT, for example, worth checking your own personal integrity at the door.
The beauty of the "letting go" approach is that it is both, simultaneously, the BEST way to regain your own self-esteem and personal authenticity, AND the most effective method of attracting back your spouse.
It's NO-LOSE. You employ the BEST CHANCE you got at getting them back, and, even if it DOESN'T work, you GET YOURSELF back. And THAT is what DB is all about, IMHO.
Puppy
For those of you hurting and searching for your answers...
I have heard many people say "I don't want to look back and say that I didn't try everything"
I've said this and i'm making one last effort for M; called OW to ask her to give our M a chance , got my H to go to a counselling session, and am trying in-house separation while detaching. First 2 strategies have failed, now i'm left with the in-house separation. I'll give this another few weeks, probably till the end of July. If that also fail, then I will pack up and leave, never to return. And I won't ever look back and think that i didn't do everything i can to save our M.
Wow, you getting that much out of one line was incredible. Can I be "witchy" at times? Yes. Do you have a point? Yes, to some degree. But am I rigidly intolerant, controlling, highly critical, etc.? Not for the most part. And the fact that I brought it up should show I'm at the very least open-minded about his criticism. I am very aware of what my faults are, I took almost all the blame for our marital problems for over a decade (not strong or independent, huh?). It was when I started thinking that maybe it wasn't all me that the real trouble began. I think he thinks that proves his point.
What he means is that I didn't need him enough. I didn't ask his opinion enough or take his advice enough. I wasn't aware this was a big deal for a lot of men, and it was a huge deal for him. He almost always (and I'm not exaggerating) got offended if I didn't take his advice. And the weird part is I did take a lot of it. He had an incredible amount of say in the business my family owns, but it really turned him off if we went in a different direction than he thought we should. And we even did that pretty rarely, because his advice was usually good and we'd hear about it if we didn't. Gosh, that doesn't sound at all strong and independent either.
I do, however, now take men up on offers to get stuff off high shelves, carry stuff, etc., and give them an extra sweet smile when I thank them. If it floats your boat, I can let you carry that box. Although I just listened to my brother-in-law about how to jump my battery and had the car towed when it didn't work, turned out he did it wrong but I didn't want to insist we reread the directions. So this will only get me so far I guess.
As for freaking out if someone goes to the store for five minutes, up until about a year ago he hated me to be out for even an evening so I rarely did it. So maybe that is part of it, I don't know.
I guess the crux of it is that for him to feel loved, he has to feel depended on. And appreciated. And the ways in which I did (and I did do it in many ways, I have the e-mails to prove it!) weren't enough for him. His OW is going through (supposedly) a divorce from what she purports is a complete crazy man, so I'm sure he gets a lot of that from her. If it wasn't so contrary to DBing I would have had some sort of breakdown about how I can't get through life on my own and what am I going to do without him but I don't think he'd buy it anyway. Instead he feels that I never really loved him since I got my life together and going in a positive direction so quickly.
Since my WH complained about this for years, I don't know what your advice is in regards to the A. He went off the deep end in regards to how awful our marriage was but has been relatively consistent in his complaints (somehow I just don't think our marriage was sick and twisted, my favorite justification he gave for ending it). I think a criticism almost always has a grain of truth to it so I'll think on what you said.
It's NO-LOSE. You employ the BEST CHANCE you got at getting them back, and, even if it DOESN'T work, you GET YOURSELF back. And THAT is what DB is all about, IMHO.
when i first started here, i was adamant that my first objective was to save the m. even at the cost of losing me.
saving the m was more important to me than myself.
if my m ends in d, no amount of db-ing was going to save me from the grip of depression. even now i have doubts as to whether i will survive.
The beauty of the "letting go" approach is that it is both, simultaneously, the BEST way to regain your own self-esteem and personal authenticity, AND the most effective method of attracting back your spouse.
i like the first part of the sentence.
i know i need to regain my self-esteem back.
the best way to attract my spouse back? i dunno. i think that's what landed me here in the first place.
i could be singing a different tune soon.
i would love to get myself back.
the old me was way nicer and not self-centered.
ever since the d-bomb was dropped, it has been poor me, poor me, poor me.
i have neglected everyone else and it's been all about me.
i care less about everyone else and care only about me.
this is not who i want to be.
So get to work.
As for freaking out if someone goes to the store for five minutes, up until about a year ago he hated me to be out for even an evening so I rarely did it. So maybe that is part of it, I don't know.
I see. So maybe the problem is that he doesn't feel strong and independent? Maybe this whole "need" thing is him projecting his insecurity?
That's sickeningly codependent. How long were you married and "taking all the blame for your M problems"? Taking all the blame is a form of control too. It's making yourself a fixer.
Maybe it's not that you are strong or independent, but you are--by taking all of the responsibility--a fixer, and he doesn't want to be fixed?
Not that it excuses cheating and such. But... maybe he just didn't want to be married to his Mom?
We have a few fixers her. OIN is a fixer. Truegritter is a recovering fixer. There are a few fixers on the MLC forum.
Couple things:
i think you also have to understand that it takes a long time to wake up and walk away.
No, not for everyone. I discovered BF's affair on Thanksgiving and put him out of the house two months later. He wouldn't end it so I did. And I wish I had done it sooner.
does letting them go and detaching mean accepting that the m is over and not worth salvaging?
that's the vibe i'm getting.
and i thought the whole db forum was to help people save their m's.
Reread Gucci's first post on this thread:
Any thoughts? Anybody looking for help in setting them free?
The faster you do, the faster things progress. Not only for YOU but maybe even for the whole relationship...
I have heard many people say "I don't want to look back and say that I didn't try everything"
Have you really tried setting them free? for good?
maybe it's just the format of reading text but the impression i get is that when people detach, they have this "i don't care about him/her, not my problem anymore" view. it comes across as being bitter.
(please don't ban me .. or hate me.)
"i don't care about him/her, not my problem anymore" view. it comes across as being bitter.
If you are bitter, you obviously are focused on them. You can't not be focused on them and be bitter too.
People make their own choices. There's nothing you, I or any of us can do to fool them into making the choices we want them to make... that will stick anyway.
Loving deatchment is knowing that, and knowing that you make YOUR own choices too, and they aren't responsible for the choices you make, so you might as well make the best choices you can.
Puppy,
Agreed. Though I must say that reading Snodderly in the archives has given me a whole new realistic (though by no means hopeful) insight into my X's sudden downward, runaway spiral.
p.s.
Not the least of which is Snodderly's advice. "Your only choice for healing and renewal is to go on as if she were dead,"
Well no, I don't think he does feel strong and independent. Interesting. He has horrible self-esteem that he covered up with bravado and thought he was a complete screw-up even though he had a good job, a family, was a responsible citizen, good to his extended family, etc. I didn't believe in projection until all this started but I sure do now. We were married 12 years.
I took all the blame, I think, because I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong (and I often was) and he hates being wrong. I don't think his self-esteem can take it. I fought it but in the end I always allowed him to convince me. The other problem is that the problems I caused in our M were obvious and his were under the surface. With some time and distance it's really obvious what he was doing to contribute. But it wasn't at the time. I have thought he was codependent from almost the beginning of our marriage. But I don't know what I was doing that made him that way, it was honestly pretty much that way from when we met at 17.
I don't think I'm a fixer in almost any way, to be honest. One of the reasons I was happy enough being married to him was that I accepted his faults and worked around them. I thought he was a pretty great guy for the most part, again because his issues were under the surface. I would say he's the fixer, I could make a list as long as my arm about complaints he had with me. Being married to his mom was not one of them, if anything he would have liked more hovering and fussing. So maybe he'd like to be married to his mom? Except she drives him crazy!
I'm well aware of how he'd like me to be, some of it I can do, some of it's a stretch. I made a list of what I did wrong in our marriage, which was really unpleasant, but then I made one about him, which made me feel better! This is all part of the reason that life has been so easy and peaceful and happy since he left. But he was (and still is) a good dad and a good husband for the most part and I miss him. And there was a lot of good.
Hmmm?
I guess how we got here was I didn't buy the idea that somebody leaves somebody because they are emotionally strong and independent (really interdependent).
That part doesn't make sense to me. That part I am not buying.
In the end, you can pick this apart (and it sounds like you have done a lot of that), but his choices are his, and your choices are yours, and if he's going to go outside of his marriage, have an affair, and then try to blame you for the marriage failing, well... let him do that.
You know better, and all you have to feel good about are the choices you make going forward.
Setting them free is really the only choice.
People are not possessions or articles and therefore holding onto anyone who does not want to be held onto can never work. Sometimes we hold onto ideas and dreams i.e of staying married or or maintaining a family unit but we cannot hold onto the people who want to walk.
It is purely fear that inhibits the giving of the "Dobson" speech. Fear that if you say they can leave they will leave. But they have already left anyway. If not in body certainly in mind and spirit. The speech is really an outward declaration that YOU get it. A way of letting THEM know that YOU do not wish to be complicit in the current state of play. A way of retaining some measure of dignity for crying out loud.
If someone is dead and you do not say they are dead does it make them alive?
Setting them free is a fearless action. Fearlessness can be reckless in some circmstances but in others it can also be attractive. If someone thinks you will be broken at the thought of setting them free and you DO IT, doesn't that immediately change the entire dynamic even if they do not return? You immediately appear stronger and more resilient. Some power returns to you.
This is exactly it. If they are already gone, what is the point of hanging on? Thanks for the incredible insight into my sitch.
This is a good thread..
I finally "gave up"...."let go" and I actually feel better. I had an agonizing 5 mos before I did it. I too was holding on to my family for dear life but I realized I didn't want someone who didn't want me.
It still hurts but I feel better now. I don't have to look at the clock to see when he's coming home. I don't have to listen to any of his lies anymore. I don't have to watch how much alcohol he drinks.
Here I thought I was setting him free but it was ME who was set free...
Luv
Amen!
Thanks, I do feel really good about the choices I've made going forward. Turns out I'm good in a crisis, didn't know that before! I certainly didn't mean to imply that he left me only because I was strong and independent, I didn't know that's what you thought I meant. He's got plenty of additional reasons. It's so nice living without someone being constantly disappointed with me.
Where or why did you pick Gucci Loafer as your name? I have always wondered that.
It was between that and Gucci THE Loafer..
No reason. Just wanted something unique and my wife and I got a big laugh out of it. I love it when she now calls me Gucci when kidding me...
Gucci, my stbxh told me he has uncertainty about filing for D and will alwasys have doubts that this is the right decision (he is living with OW though). I want to "set him free" and "set me free" by doing so but DAMN IT am feeling stuck since he told me that. It gives me hope and I really can't have hope if I want to detach (that is me, I think). Any advice on how I can let go knowing this?
Unstuck yourself and him. I know for myself that I don't and have never shared my lovers with another person. Game over.
When we talk boundary setting THAT is the only boundary to me. You crossed the boundary. Game over. No other secondary boundaries are necessary. Let's get to the REAL boundary here you crossed. It was the boundary of I DON'T share. It isn't the boundary of I won't pay for your cell phone if you are textin him.. That only is avoiding the real boundary here.
We BOTH agreed to this boundary when we decided to be exclusive. Game over now.
It frees me because of that standard and line in the sand.
Nothing more to talk about or figure out on my end. Takes the pressure off of me and puts it on them. Divorce would be filed in a heartbeat. Shows confidence and self esteem. If they want someone else, then have at it.. Totally free to be with them..
HOWEVER, you can't have ME too. I WILL be perfectly fine without you. I am a big boy. There are millions of women that would love to have a man like me and treat me really really well and be a great partner with me. If I go into a restaurant and they don't have what I want to order, should I cry, whine, beg and tell them that it is my mistake? Do I say that I am not going to eat again? Do I say I am not quite ready to make another choice that IS on the menu? Do I leave without eating and make myself miserable and keep focusin on why they didn't have what I wanted and what can I do about it?
Nope.. I say to the waiter or waitress.."Ok, well I will have the (second choice) instead.. I don't whine, I don't complain and I don't hang on for hope that I couldn't have what I first wanted. Maybe my second choice will turn out to be the better choice anyway... "MMMMM, that was a great meal" I say after it is served and eaten....
Get it? I am perfectly fine with another choice. I don't get upset if what I thought I wanted isn't available. I then go on happily with my life. My tummy is full.
I let go of what I wanted and found another choice..
Quit holding onto something so tight that God has to pry it out of your hands to show you a lesson in your life. Let it go Find another choice. Life is good. One moment at a time. Be happy. Stay happy.
Even if YOU do file for divorce, we already know that if at some point he comes back that you can marry again. No biggie. It has happened before and will happen again. At least you released him. So be it.
FANTASTIC THREAD!!
I found this exactly when I needed it.
Two questions (to start)
Who is "OIN" so I can read that thread and GL's script?
What is the "Dobson speech"?
THAT is exactly where I am in my sitch.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2021607&page=31GL, though I think you've been on my thread in the past, could I trouble you for a follow up? Thanks.
Gucci,
So how do you set the WAS free? Do you tell them verbally? Do you write them an email? Do you just go completely dark?
If you read mi sitch, I 've been separated now for 2 years. W filed a year ago but didn't pursue it. We are still separated but not divorced.
For the past 3 weeks, I haven't contacted W at all. I actually feel much better. Is that setting her free? I did send her a birthday gift yesterday just to acknowledge the birthday.
Any guidnace?
JR
Hey Puppy, I kinda like the way TimeHeals thinks. I nominate him to be a member of the secret society of DB Pinheads.
I second the motion! Dday, too! All those in favor???
I'm not sure whether to be flattered or insulted?
Anywho..........
Skimming through all that's been posted since I was last on yesterday, I did see one thing that bothers me, the request of a "hope" thread, mainly "how long it takes the WAS to "come out of the fog".
Bad idea.
Why?
Because, to me, that would intsill upon the LBS the sense that, "oh, so that's how it goes, if I just let my WAS do whatever it is they are doing, we'll clean in all up in 'X' months and then reconcille and life will be good". And in the meantime, the LBS will not do any of the neccessary work of themselves, correct their faults of bad habit they've fallen into over the course of marriage and guess what? Nothing will have changed on either side and you are destened for failure of mass proportions. To say anything of the fact that the approach would be completely ridiculing the whole DB premise and every thread might as well just be a journal of how often the LBS' picked their arse today with 'X' amount of days until the WAS is 'coming home', yippie! <sigh>
Second issue, going back to the whole MLC thing.......
I would say at one time, like the 60's and 70's, MLC would have been a valid term due to the average life expectancy. Even today, we see a lot of changes within ourselves after exiting our 20's. We find ourselves with house payments, kids, careers and all and we realize, "crap, I'm a full blown adult". However, now, versus then, we find a lot of folks in their low mid 30's 'partying' more, or making mass career changes more often than the fabled running out and buying a red Corvette and trying to bag someone 15 years our junior.
To me, "MLC" is now just another medical term as HDD. And having 2 boys, one claimed to have ADD, I certify from my own daily knowledge, there is no such thing as ADD, it's kids being kids just like when I was a kid. Plain and simply, just a marketing strategy to make the drug companies money.
Again, my whole point with "is my WAS in MLC?" thing to me is very discouraging because then the LBS is using this as their DB "tatic" of sorts and again, violates the whole point of DB'ing. The only situation that a tatic can apply is obviously infidelity, and requiring a battle plan to cope and crush the affair.
But, is it really neccessary?
I did nothing to crush the affair. It took me a long time, but I did what should be done. I worked on me, sometimes very subconsciensly, I let her go, dropped the rope and gave her what she "wanted": a life without me in it in any capacity.
And, obviously, what she "wanted", isn't what she wanted. She's back, committed and focused.
Enough said.
D-Day-
Can I ask what 'piercing' is in your signature?
Thank you.
LOL, it's gag term for when in Piecing.
What is the "Dobson speech"?
Dobson's speech is preceded by an entire change in demeanor and attitude. You aren't mean or rude. Just in your own little world. No pursuing or reaching out anymore. Short answers to questions and then on to something else..
Best done when you wait for an opening that the WS gives you after you have applied the new demeanor and attitude for a week or two. Be in your own little world as if there is something on your mind and you are oblivious to the WS... Thinking. Thinking..
"What is wrong with you, are you mad at me" (or something to that effect)
Then when they give you the opening for what is up with you lately....
THEN... you drop the new bomb on them..
"nothing wrong with me, but I HAVE BEEN DOING SOME THINKING..
and here is what I have decided. I don't know why I didn't see this before, but I have realized that this just isn't going to work this way. I now realize that I don't want to be with someone that really doesn't want to be with me. I don't want to be with someone who is having an affair. It just isn't what I want in life. So, I have decided that we should separate and work toward divorce. I think you should fiind another place to live as soon as possible. Within two weeks would be good. We need to decide what we are going to do with the finances, the house and the children too. I will get my attorney to draw something up for us. I am sorry it didn't work out between us but I have now realized that maybe this is for the best. Anyway, I have to go to my friends and I am running late. That is all I had to say. Talk to you later."
Don't draw it out and read them a book.. Short, direct, decisive and matter of factly.
And that is the moment you have released them. You then follow through on exactly what you have told them. Keep all your cards close to your chest. Mysterious. Not mean. Not punitive. Not angry exept for callng the affair what it is.. AN affair.
Note: The speech can also be effective written in a letter.
Oh. I thought maybe some body piercing wass part of your recommended 180's! (ha, ha!)
Hey, do what works.
I loved your thoughts on the menu and relationships. I am going to copy it and put it in my pocket so everytime I start to whine about my choice not wanting me I can remember your post. Thanks.
Oh. I thought maybe some body piercing wass part of your recommended 180's! (ha, ha!)
Hey, do what works.
Bwahahahaha!!!!!
No, that would have been tattoos of which at one point I was there at the parlor, but they didn't have enought time to get it done start to finish.
Just found this thread...it is GREAT!!! I have recommended Dobson's Love Must be Tough on several threads. It is the first book on tough love and the basis for the whole line of thinking that respect is as important as love. You MUST respect yourself before anyone else will.
I have applied the letting go philosphy with much success. I can personally speak to the fact that in doing so, you have the best chance to gain back not only yourself, but possibly your WAS. It's worked for me previously and right now, has been my saving grace in keeping my sanity. Although, I do not claim to be an expert on exactly how to do it and don't profess to always doing it well. That's part of my issue right now in my current sitch because I don't know how much of it to do, not being able to prove an A. I just know that everytime H says he might want out, I say, "there's the door," in some way, shape, or form.
I am curious though. Early in the thread someone mentioned ways to be more attractive to your spouse - that there were great tips on men being more attractive to women, but wanted more tips for women to be attractive for men. I have to say that I'm curious about that as I look to do 180s and GAL!!!
It frees me because of that standard and line in the sand.
Nothing more to talk about or figure out on my end. Takes the pressure off of me and puts it on them. Divorce would be filed in a heartbeat. Shows confidence and self esteem. If they want someone else, then have at it.. Totally free to be with them..
HOWEVER, you can't have ME too. I WILL be perfectly fine without you. I am a big boy. There are millions of women that would love to have a man like me and treat me really really well and be a great partner with me.
I wish I had been able to apply such a philosophy sooner in my situation, but the reason I didn't, and couldn't, is one that is ignored by this philosophy. My kids. My young kids who were being put through h*ll by their mother's reckless actions. I couldn't just say "Fine. You want him, you can have him", because I would effectively be saying "Fine. I freely give up half my kids' lives, and have no problem with you bringing a predator step-father into their lives." I was also grieving horribly for the loss of the family the kids were enduring. When kids are involved, especially young kids, it's not a simple act of letting the wayward spouse go, because they take some of the kids' lives with them. No court in my state would have ever awarded me with full custody.
Now that I've made it through my sitch, and am in a pretty good place, I've thought a lot about this. If we didn't have kids, how would I have acted differently? I am convinced that had we not had kids, I would have been able to let go and move on, much easier, and much sooner. I would have been able to employ complete no contact almost immediately and started healing. I would have been able to freely think about a new life, totally unencumbered by my past failed M. Thoughts of all the women out there who would "treat me right" wouldn't have been burdened with the added "need to be a great step-mom" too.
When kids are involved, "setting them free", is much more complicated, IMO.
Thanks, Gucci.
I'll have e look at the Dobson book. Between DR/DB and Mr Nice Guy, I don't want to overdo it. I can't afford to confuse myself and become inconsistent.
I truly enjoy your perspective and this thread. I've had so much assistance from Puppy, Sandi and Allen (not to mention the support of other "relative Noobs" who can view my sitch as outsiders and see what I'm NOT looking at.
But, based on W's current bhvr and no hard evidence of A, your line of engagement seems most appropriate.
Thanks again.
When kids are involved, "setting them free", is much more complicated, IMO.
There are always a million reasons not to do the right thing, the thing that takes real strength.
For example, who's going to take care of my dogs (who need special handling due to temperment and breed) if I have to travel on business?
I used that excuse to be weak for a while.
When kids are involved, "setting them free", is much more complicated, IMO.
Why is it more complicated?
I would think it would be just the same if not even more important to follow this approach if you have children.
I would think it would be just the same if not even more important to follow this approach if you have children.
Me too (I can say that with confidence now).
It is important--as a role model--to model real strength and compassion for your children. What do you want them learning?
I didn't say it wasn't the best thing to do, I just said it was much harder, especially to do it with conviction. It's one thing to "kick your wayward spouse to the curb", but when half your kids' lives go with them, that's a special kind of h*ll. I didn't, and still don't, believe it was an "excuse" to be weak, but rather a manifestation of the ripping at bonds beyond those of our M.
Even now, while we're working at reconciliation, I know I should probably be more scarce, but I have a virtually open invitation to be with my kids more. An enormous pull is causing me to gravitate toward them, and therefore my W gets more of me. Being separated from my kids always felt totally WRONG and unnatural. Knowing they are a few miles from me, yet I am not allowed to see them, or be with them, felt WRONG, in every way. Now that my W has removed that barrier, I have no real desire to keep it in place voluntarily.
As I read through the last few pages, I see a common theme...
Some of you are missing the point of this thread...
This has nothing to do with being mean, ugly or disrespectful...
This isn't a game, this is your life...The only one He gives you...
Is this truly how you want to spend the rest of your life? Reading into each and every word spoken by your spouse? Trying to figure out each action they project? Being hurt over and over again when it turns out you didn't read the "signals" correctly...
There is no timeline here to follow...
I tried in the beginning, I read over hundreds of threads trying to stuff my H in a "box"...
MLC or PTSD or whatever other acronym I happened to come across...
The bottom line is DB is for you...
If you happen to save your marriage in the process great...
If not, you will be just fine, maybe even better than fine...
The point is you will survive.
The spouse you have painted into the MLC corner is self-centered, selfish, rebellious...
Instead of taking the time to evaluate where they are in their lives and where they want to be, they instead wallow.
They wallow in the past because it was more fun, a time filled with less responsibility, possibly no children , an easier job etc...
Right here at this point on the path is where their true character will shine through -
They will either sit down to adjust their old plan, possibly make a new one or they will blow up their lives with the greatest of fanfare...
My husband chose to blow his up...Now 16 months later, I am a better person for it...
I know I deserve better, I know I will be much, much happier, I know that He wants more for my life than I could have ever imagined and I also know that in my heart, I was correct all along...
Cheating on me was the final dealbreaker, I tried to overlook it just to keep my marriage in tact however it isn't possible.
You don't get to decimate everything we built together for a roll in the hay and think that it is ok...
It is never ok, once you can get to this place, than you will be able to detach...
Not in bitterness, not in hate, not in anger...
In love and with peace.
Stop using each and everything (yes, including your kids) as an excuse to hold on to something that wasn't yours to begin with.
People are not possessions, you don't own your spouse...
You are only in control of you.
Stop using each and everything (yes, including your kids) as an excuse to hold on to something that wasn't yours to begin with.
People are not possessions, you don't own your spouse...
I wasn't saying kids are an excuse to hold onto your spouse, I was saying that marriages and kids are linked together, and yes, I do believe there is an aspect of possession in regard to kids, possession that slowly fades as they grow up. The younger the kids are, the more horrible it is to let them go, far beyond that of letting go of your spouse, because as you said, you don't own your spouse.
The bottom line is DB is for you...
Focus on the process not the outcome.
Follow your values not some technique. (Don't confuse values with dysfunctional beliefs)
Do the right thing (form counts) vs what will everyone think/feel.
Great thread!
I posted the following on my thread and another thread on "Infidelity":
In IC today my IC told me that the changes that I've made (thanks to PDT/Sandi and others) are my best chance at possible reconciliation down the road. And if we don't reconcile, I will bring clarity and healthy boundaries into my next relationship.
I've started to really "get it" the last few weeks in setting/enforcing boundaries, respecting myself, and reclaiming my dignity. My WW is free to join me if she desires but I'm moving on with my life. The techniques I've learned from this site are not about WS's, they are for us LBS's. Now, my WW can fog speak to me about "not meeting her needs", but you know what, I HAVE NEEDS TO that must be met.
I would like to add "Never make someone the priority when you're the option"
Cheers!
PREACH it, sister!!
I was saying that marriages and kids are linked together
there is such thing as co-parenting counselling.
mediation would also help in ensuring that both parents get access to the kids.
don't underestimate the system. in many states, the children's well being are paramount - not the two bickering "adults".
as long as you know you are doing what is best, you can't go wrong. it's like tough love. it is hard but you know that it has to be done and it hurts you to do it. believe that things will work out in the end for the better.
look at coach's signature. the statement there is what helps me every day.
that was probably the best piece of advice that he gave me. for that, i will always be grateful.
(((((Future))))
I was in no way pointing fingers...
I have a young son (just turned 7) so I understand your point..
With regards to my boys (the other is 14) this has been a nightmare however I have done everything I possibly could to make sure their relationship with their Dad is in tact...It is up to him to see them...
I have done my very best to not bad mouth him or disrespect him even when he does it to my face in front of them. He has almost destroyed his relationship with both boys and it is sad however it is something he will have to live with for the rest of his life.
You do the very best you can with the hand in front of you, you hope, you pray, you grow, you heal, you survive.
Stop using each and everything (yes, including your kids) as an excuse to hold on to something that wasn't yours to begin with.
THIS is so true....
So glad I read this thread, its just helps reinforce all the advice I've been given.
I have to say I can relate to futureunknown, my girls and how this will affect them has been definitely one of the hardest part of all this.
I must be doing better at detaching than I realize, went out again last nite w/a female friend, ...just a friend, but was nice. Today, ran out to do 'errand's, and w/is now start to ask where and why. I just tell her nothing important, or just to meet with a friend, I try to be vague without lying.
After reading this thread, it may just be time to give her that 'two week' notice, as hard as it will be. I'd be lying tho if I didn't say I am still very torn inside about doing that. But Im also starting to see more and more everyday, that I will need to regardless of the outcome, for my own well being.
Working on letting go has been a good choice for me because
- 1. it aligns with my personal beliefs (people are not possessions)
- 2. it puts the focus on me and what I can control
I have a long way to go, but I'm proud of the progress that I've made in six months. Here are the things that have helped me the most:
- forcing myself to listen to the advice from the wise posters on this forum (including the "unsuccessful"
vets whose marriages were not going to survive) - the teachings of Byron Katie, especially the book I Need Your Love: Is that true? (book summary)
- taking antidepressants...I was doing a lot of personal work, but it wasn't until I started ADs that things turned around: I started being able to feel good, and I gained the ability to redirect negative thought patterns
- reading and getting professional help with accepting how D will affect my children...which is the most difficult step in my letting-go process
- support from real friends who don't pull any punches
Tomorrow is the six month mark of my separation. I'm ready to let go further and welcome input on that.
Hi. I'm BBJ and I am a (recovering) fixer...
Excellent stuff. So much of it I will have to steal and keep in a file to read when I need it or when I doubt myself.
Serenity I love that post...Dday did I read that right? Another baby on the way! Wow!
I waited way too long and used every excuse in the book:
*My kids' lives will be turned upside down
*If I expose to his friends he will hate me and be gone for good
*If I expose at work (ow was coworker and they had apparently been 'warned' for 'collaborating too closely' considering both were married and she was a subordinate) H will lose his job and stay-at-home mom ME will have no money to support herself, will lose the house, etc etc
*If I tell family members they will turn
against him and make it hard to ever get back together (sadly I waited seven months after he moved out the second time, which was 18 months from when the A-bomb dropped, to tell anyone besides my parents and siblings~so hard to live life with such a big secret!)
*If I am nice enough, if I am loving enough, if I am 'good' enough he will see the error of his ways. I can't force him to choose because what if he doesn't choose me?
I would give a lot to be able to go back in time to the day I found him in the hotel room with her. If I could I would turn around, walk out, drive the 5 hours back home (yep I was snooping, got intel, then drove from KC to STL to bust him on a 'business trip' cause I am crazy like that). I would have filed immediately and not let him back in the house unless he brought the law with him and made me let him in. You get the idea, I would have done almost everything differently. But water is under the bridge so no point dwelling.
If you are just getting into this or are fairly new, don't do what I did!!!! Set them free for real, not as an agenda to win them back. And if you have been around as long as me, it's never too late to change for yourself, even if you don't reconcile.
And yes it feels good to be able to breathe again and to walk without hearing the crunch of eggshells...
taking antidepressants...I was doing a lot of personal work, but it wasn't until I started ADs that things turned around: I started being able to feel good, and I gained the ability to redirect negative thought patterns
I am glad you got to the latter. This is in no way being critical (in the end, I don't know how important it is how you get to the "feeling good" stage), but I made a concious choice to get there with no drugs, no alcohol, no anything. I went through it organically (and trust me, anti-depresents were a very tempting option at one point).
Granted, I was not married long, and the whole relationship was less than 4 years, so... maybe that makes a difference. Still, I remember it all as 8 months of Hell before I turned around
something that might help one detach ...
ever since the bomb was dropped, people flock to you to support you and help you. it was all about you.
take a step back and return the favor and focus on them for a change.
they too need support, laughter, fun, and company.
focus on those around you. you owe it to them for their unconditional love and support.
never take them for granted. do something for them today.
cuz when the dust settles, you know they will be there.
something that might help one detach ...
ever since the bomb was dropped, people flock to you to support you and help you. it was all about you.
take a step back and return the favor and focus on them for a change.
they too need support, laughter, fun, and company.
focus on those around you. you owe it to them for their unconditional love and support.
never take them for granted. do something for them today.
cuz when the dust settles, you know they will be there.
See above in highlights. Think that through.
Greek
See above in highlights. Think that through.
Doublethink. Freedom is Slavery.
See above in highlights. Think that through.
Doublethink. Freedom is Slavery.
? Help me out, Time. Not sure I see it.
Greek
? Help me out, Time. Not sure I see it.
Greek
I was agreeing with you.
It's a contradiction in terms:
owing somebody for
unconditional love.
Some cognitive dissonance going on there. One doesn't
owe people for
unconditional love.
One might appreciate it and return it however.
George Orwell turned in his grave
yes, agreed.
every once in a while we take those around us for granted.
stop and do something with them.
show your appreciation.
? Help me out, Time. Not sure I see it.
Greek
I was agreeing with you.
It's a contradiction in terms:
owing somebody for
unconditional love.
Some cognitive dissonance going on there. One doesn't
owe people for
unconditional love.
One might appreciate it and return it however.
George Orwell turned in his grave
Ohhhh! Gotcha. Way too literal today, I guess. I've been hanging out with the D13 all day - that must be it!
Greek
Otherwise it shifts from unconditional love into martrydom, "Look at me, look at all I've done for you", and then if you disaapoint them "After all I've done for you, you let me down". It may or may not be said, but it sure has been implied...the Marie Barone philosophy (see Everybody Loves Raymond for further examples)
I have gotten off the martyr train after learning the routine from my own mom. So much better NOT being that way!
I have a question...is it ok to talk to friends (both of ours) and let them know my side of what has happened? I know I should have done this a LONG time ago, but I didn't.....I wasn't ready. Now that I am feeling stronger and want to let go, is it ok or do I let go of that too?
H is having an ea/pa...H left to live at our house up north in Feb..."not because of her or you...I love you, but I am not in love with you (I HATE that phrase!)....I just want to be alone...I wont divorce you."
Family (both sides) knows the story, but, I am finding out H is telling people I am CHOOSING to stay where I am at because my family is here. Which is BS...WE had always planned to retire there (north) together! We have had the house 20+yrs.
I am trying to drop the rope and set him free...I have not called him for a couple of weeks...I took my rings off last week. I have come to realize I don't want to live this way any longer.
The bad thing is, I have not set any boundaries. He has come back here a few times and I have gone there a few times since Feb. We sleep in separate bedrooms. We hug, kiss, but that is it. We do things together. In his mind this is GREAT...we are friends!!
I know, cake-eating!
My MIL/FIL were just up north (they are both from there) MIL called me today and said H is crazy!! I said, 'I know!' She said, 'No I MEAN HE'S CRAZY!!' She was going to tell him I had taken my rings off...I had told them (she thought maybe he would see I'm not waiting any longer)...they are VERY supportive.
MIL said he is so detached and does NOT think he has done anything wrong! In the end, she DID NOT tell him I had taken my rings off, she feels I should talk to him that maybe it would have more of an impact.....but did say to me, 'I really think it is time to go on with your life.' She did tell him, 'in no way, shape or form will OW EVER be allowed in my house!!!' His response, 'I know. This isn't about her!'
I guess I have two questions now. Being he still thinks we are 'friends' because I have not set boundaries, do we get together to talk so I can tell him this is not how I want to live?.....I will not be his friend while he is still talking to OW! If I do tell him...how do I say it?
One more, how long do you go without sex before one is considered a virgin again???
Thanks for your help....love this tread!!....gg
This is a very useful thread. I was 4 months into our planned pregnancy when dropped the bomb (PA/no chance of reconciling). I think it is different when there are kids involved and I would also say it is doubly hard again to "let go" when you are expecting your WAH's child.
For example, my baby smiled for the first time this week. Do I share that with WH or would that be going against Letting Go because his A with OW is a dealbreaker? How do you Let Go and effectively co-parent especially in the early days?
There are 2 of us in Newcomers who have just given birth to our first babies and 1 who is about to...
Sorry, wasn't fast enough to edit my above post. Second line was meant to read as: "I was 4 months into our planned pregnancy when WH dropped the bomb".
Otherwise it shifts from unconditional love into martrydom, "Look at me, look at all I've done for you", and then if you disaapoint them "After all I've done for you, you let me down". It may or may not be said, but it sure has been implied...the Marie Barone philosophy (see Everybody Loves Raymond for further examples)
I have gotten off the martyr train after learning the routine from my own mom. So much better NOT being that way!
MARIE BARONE...spokes-mom for martyrdom! Perfect example of what NOT to do!
Greek
I think if I had let go earlier than I did, I would have regretted it.
So I am glad that HE was the one to file (just for me and my sitch-not advocating that everyone wait for the spouse to file), I learned an example of how to fight for my marriage and make changes in myself, and if I run into problems with my next relationship I have learned some useful techniques BEFORE it comes to breaking up/divorce.
But can I say that to truly let go without expectations FEELS FABULOUS! FREE! AMAZING! no joke.
I guess I have two questions now. Being he still thinks we are 'friends' because I have not set boundaries, do we get together to talk so I can tell him this is not how I want to live?.....I will not be his friend while he is still talking to OW! If I do tell him...how do I say it?
I am of the philosophy that you really let go and when the "friends" thing comes up...."Oh yea, sure, we can be friends. We probably make better friends than we do lovers, and I now realize that you were right, I will always love you, but I am not IN love with you either".. and then I would in reality, be a terrible friend. One that doesn't answer all calls, one that treats him like he treats you. etc. etc.. In other words, my actions would be the exact opposite of what I had told him. I would then be out dating others and see how he handles the friendship when THAT happens.
It doesn't make sense to want to reconcile and be married and yet tell them you won't be their friend. It actually works better the other way around. Tell them you don't want to be married to them and that it would be better that you are friends because you are not IN love with them anymore. It shows more of the "letting go" to do it that way. Like it is now no longer a big deal what he is doing. Water off your back. You tell him you are ok with being friends, and your actions show you are going to be as bad of a friend as he is.
Take a page from the WS.. They almost always say they are not IN love with you and then almost always say that they want to be friends. Do what they do.
I am of the philosophy that you really let go and when the "friends" thing comes up...."Oh yea, sure, we can be friends. We probably make better friends than we do lovers, and I now realize that you were right, I will always love you, but I am not IN love with you either".. and then I would in reality, be a terrible friend. One that doesn't answer all calls, one that treats him like he treats you. etc. etc..
wouldn't that just give the impression that you are not over the WS?
the problem with me is that i'm a 'digger' and i reveal my emotions.
i'd never just end it with "sorry, i'm busy."
i'm more of the "sorry, i'm busy. why don't you go ask mommy and daddy for help? they've got nothing to do but wait on you hand and foot anyway."
i'm really bad at this db-ing stuff. :P
gucci .. hit me with a 2x4.
Dumped for MIL, you need to be the one who is set free. I spent many years as a "victim" in a M where my H chose his mother over me. I can tell from what you say in your post that you can think of nothing else but your stitch. It is poison to you.
When a woman is M to a "mamma's boy" it will be a miserable life. You have no children. If you did, the MIL would take more control as she would dictate to the son how they should be raised and she would try to turn the children against you (if she's anything like mine was). Don't have kids with this man thinking it would draw him to you and away from his mother.
I'm sorry that I can't give any hope. I think you need to be free of this man and his mother.
Gucci,
I don't get the whole "pretend to be their friend" after divorce....sounds like a revenge game to me....
sandi2,
gucci and pdt (i think) have both said they don't believe h left me for his parents. so i have no idea what to think.
Thank you Gucci for responding
....maybe I am not as ready to let go as I thought....or can get the gest of it, being an enabler/fixer....where do I draw that fine line?
It actually works better the other way around. Tell them you don't want to be married to them and that it would be better that you are friends because you are not IN love with them anymore. It shows more of the "letting go" to do it that way. Like it is now no longer a big deal what he is doing. Water off your back. You tell him you are ok with being friends, and your actions show you are going to be as bad of a friend as he is.
This is what I have been doing...kinda....I think I need to work on the '
bad friend' part!
I guess I'm a little confused. Wouldn't this be form of 'cake-eating' in H's warped mind? Having OW and me??
guess I'm a little confused. Wouldn't this be form of 'cake-eating' in H's warped mind? Having OW and me??
Not if you are really letting go.
You are saying, "Sure, let's be friends. Why not.", but you are getting on with your life and aren't being a good friend at all. More like one of those friends you almost never hear from because they are way too tied up in their own lives ... which are far more interesting than your life
The friendship offer is only as sincere as the intent behind it. Sure, you bear no grudges, why should you? You are moving on. Maybe one year we'll talk when I need something. That's what kind of friends you are.
You have to really mean this though.
Nobody says you have to be nasty. You can be nice and move on. In fact, why would you be nasty?
You have reached a point in your personal growth where your path is diverging. Since you two are not going to grow together, you have to let them grow on their own, and you get to grow on your own.
Nobody knows what the future brings, but now you are letting go. "C'ya round".
sandi2,
gucci and pdt (i think) have both said they don't believe h left me for his parents. so i have no idea what to think.
That's b/c Gucci & Puppy aren't M to Mamma's Boys! I'm telling you to get out while you can (before you have kids).
That's b/c Gucci & Puppy aren't M to Mamma's Boys!
So those rumors aren't true, then?
I KNEW there was a reason why the TiVo kept wanting to record "Grey's Anatomy" for me . . .
What's "grey's anatomy"?
I will admit to laughing my butt off watching "Real Housewives of NJ."
I will admit to laughing my butt off watching "Real Housewives of NJ."
coach .. i lost all respect for you.
ok .. there's still a hint of respect. at least you didn't say "jersey shore".
OMG! He really is a coach!
and WHAT is WRONG with Jersey Shore?!
;-)
LOL .. omg, you watch that show!
i've never watched it but i've heard that it was really bad.
This is an OUTSTANDING Thread!
Lots of insightful thoughts about the WAS, the LBS, and just people on general.
Couldn't letting them go completely and detaching, for those LBS of the WAS who are too proud to ever admit they are wrong, just admitting that their needs and desires are far greater than yours?
Wow, Gucci! I like the fake friends bit a lot better than agreeing to be a genuine friend to a was. Allowing them to have a friendship with you is nothing more than cake-eating anyway. Why should they be allowed to f their OP, then turn to us to get some other fix through a "friendship" with the one they abandoned?
Also, I rarely go to the MLC board because I am attacked and accused of being a negative, bitter divorcee who dashes the hopes of MLC true believers just because I don't believe in "being still" while the was drains the bank account and sucks the life out of you.
Right....."be still"....make sure the house is spotless with all their favorite foods in the fridge.....just in case they stop by....
I do go to the MLC board to check on a poster whose sitch is very similar to mine, except I don't hold out hope after three years and I don't buy the fact that my ex in brainwashed, or "scared" of his new wife, etc.
I care about this poster very much and relate a lot, but I do not buy into the MLC bit. There is no empirical evidence and it is not recognized by the DSM-IV, etc.
I think that wrapping up in the MLC cloak is simply staying in denial and delaying any healing. Waiting....waiting....three years.....five years.....
Years are very precious and are better spent working on yourself instead of waiting....being still.....for someone who has shown no regard for our well-being, is capable of, and enjoys, inflicting pain on the ones who loved them.
Ah, but what does a negative, hope-dashing, bitter old divorcee know anyway?
I am of the philosophy that you really let go and when the "friends" thing comes up...."Oh yea, sure, we can be friends. We probably make better friends than we do lovers, and I now realize that you were right, I will always love you, but I am not IN love with you either".. and then I would in reality, be a terrible friend. One that doesn't answer all calls, one that treats him like he treats you. etc. etc.. In other words, my actions would be the exact opposite of what I had told him. I would then be out dating others and see how he handles the friendship when THAT happens.
THIS is for me!
i just want to respond to this thread....I WISH I WOULD HAVE LISTENED TO THIS ADVICE EARLIER. I tried the be the better option advice, don't rock the boat...NONE of which worked. I registered on this board in Oct and it wasn't until I MOVED OUT AND AWAY that my husband started to turn around. It took ONE AND A HALF MONTHS from the time I moved out until he OFFICIALLY came back 100%. not even a week after i moved out he started talking about us being together, asking me if i would move back, etc. I ignored for the most parts all those attempts until I knew for sure that the OW was out of the picture. The OW blew up after husband dumped her and called me to tell me everything and to say "he has been lying to both of us...blah, blah."
since we have been back together (still living seperately but moving in together in a few weeks...well i will be moving into our new place slowly) the one thing husband says is that he noticed my changes but he wishes that I would have left him sooner...lol.
No one DESERVES TO BE TREATED LIKE CRAP! Don't take it...no matter how long you have been togehter. My confidence was low so I know how that can affect your decisions so don't rely on yourself to make the best decisions...If one of my friends was going through the things I put up with then i would have told them to leave. You try but you can't let someone walk over you and cheat on you in your face...it is disresptful and if you can't respect yourself then no one else will either.
No one DESERVES TO BE TREATED LIKE CRAP! Don't take it...no matter how long you have been togehter. My confidence was low so I know how that can affect your decisions so don't rely on yourself to make the best decisions...If one of my friends was going through the things I put up with then i would have told them to leave. You try but you can't let someone walk over you and cheat on you in your face...it is disresptful and if you can't respect yourself then no one else will either.
THIS
Thanks for sharing your story 4luv. Good work.
This stood out to me:
the one thing husband says is that he noticed my changes but he wishes that I would have left him sooner...lol.
and this from your thread:
Husband says he wished I wouldn't taken all of that crap from him. He says that he feels he needed help. . . . He wishes that I would not have taken crap for so long. When I said you should appreciate the fact that I took your crap in order to save our marriage, my husband replied "why should I appreciate you taking crap? No one should take crap."
It may be that the most loving thing you can do for yourself
and for the crap-giver is to leave
4luv, wow! A whole month and a half???
Congrats to you for being proactive instead of "still."
i just want to respond to this thread....I WISH I WOULD HAVE LISTENED TO THIS ADVICE EARLIER. I tried the be the better option advice, don't rock the boat...NONE of which worked. I registered on this board in Oct and it wasn't until I MOVED OUT AND AWAY that my husband started to turn around. It took ONE AND A HALF MONTHS from the time I moved out until he OFFICIALLY came back 100%. not even a week after i moved out he started talking about us being together, asking me if i would move back, etc. I ignored for the most parts all those attempts until I knew for sure that the OW was out of the picture.
I hope all of you that have NOT yet let go read the above quote again and again..... THAT is how FAST it can work when you let go. NOTICE that SHE moved out. This again is another thing that is not understood on this site. When there is an affair going on it is better for ONE of you to move than for you to live together and allow them to cake eat. Either they move or you move,but do NOT allow them to continue to cake eat while living in the same house with you. That is unacceptable behavior that needs to be nipped in the bud. "You can be with or see anybody you want. However, you can't also have ME." End of story
This is yet another exampe of letting go and how it works much better and much faster. It only took a couple of weeks once she let go. She probably thought that letting go was the end of the relationship, when in fact it was the beginning of reconciliation...
gucci .. help me achieve the possibility of reconciliation.
there is no evidence of A, or OW.
my mistake is that i didn't kick him out when i should have.
i gave up the master bedroom.
i didn't go near him since he dropped the d-bomb.
we eventually sold the house and moved into separate apartments.
GAL has given me some kind of happiness but i found that physical activity like squash made me feel better. it's exercise.
we play squash at the same club but that's about it.
there is no contact.
my journey is in the separated forum.
i want some insight as to why he is behaving the way he is. i haven't a clue.
can you point out what i'm not seeing?
Gucci, re my previous post, any tips on how to acheive a full walk-away when there is an unborn baby OR a newborn baby in the mix.
I know that we are not supposed to see our sitchs as unique, but there are a few first time mums here on the forums with WAH's with or without an OW in the mix.
Detaching, Walking Away, Letting Go, are very tricky at the best of times, near impossible though when you have a new baby or are waiting to give birth to your WAH's child.
One can't 'hand over' a newborn baby to it's father, as you can with older children who already have an established relationshiop with both parents. New mothers have to be nearby the newborn at all times (even if it means in the next room) if she is nursing because they feed almost constantly, for one -- a rhythm to which no firm schedule can be applied. Plus you are encouraged to give as much visitation access to the father so they can bond with their baby and hopefully be involved with co-parenting - this is widely seen as the Right thing to do by the child.
We are all devastated by WAS's. But any perenatal psychologist would say a woman is experiencing extreme hormonal peeks when she is pregnant and in the weeks post birth. Every fibre in the mother's being wants to keep her family intact. It is perhaps, if we allow it, a small point of difference-physiologically the pregnant woman is a hormonal beast!
I am having trouble Letting Go when I have to see WH so he can see the baby in my presence (I now sit in another room and have a family member present instead, but I would like to be courageous enough again to facilitate the visitations myself).
Plus, and this is another put where I get stuck, is how do you give the Robx "I'm OK with this too" speech when there is nothing OK about a father walking out on a pregnant wife ? Or is that a judegemental, value-ladden falsity (ie controlling)?
Piano,
I feel really bad for what the timing of everything with you being pregnant. I wasn't physically left by my husband but while i was pregnant was when the cheating began for me. I think i partly used the same rationalization for staying as you are stating above which is so that our newborn son could be around both parents. In the end for me it was good and bad. My husband got to do some initial bonding with our son but it was bad on me because I was stressed and partly depressed at a time that was suppose to be happy for me.
All that to say that you have to do what is best for YOU AND YOUR BABY. It sounds harsh but your husband, my husband, and any man that will leave or mistreat his pregnant wife made his own decision and therefore has to deal with the consequences. YOU are not required to do anything but the right thing. If your husband wants to see the baby fine but you are not responsible for making that happen. Don't short change your experience as a new mom for trying to accomodate your WH.
Actually for my stitch that also had something to do with the turn around. if my husband called to ask about our son i wasn't rude or nasty and was upbeat with things that he did etc...However, because I moved away to a completely different state to stay with my parents and support system my husband didn't really get to see our son while i was gone. i sent him pics but that was it and that REALLY got to my husband. He realized that this was the type of life he was choosing.
One thing for you to remember is that you CANNOT MAKE ANYONE BE A PARENT. i wasn't going to force my husband to step up a be a father. That was his lost if he chose not to see our son, etc.
Basically, don't think about your husband and dealing with him as your child's father. That is his burden to carry and his choice to make. let him deal with it and you just be the BEST mother you can be. It is hard but so worth not having that stress in your life.
Thanks 4luv, so you cannot make anyone be a parent, like you cannot make anyone be a partner/spouse?
Again though, how might the Robx speech be adapted to this sitch? Something like "I am OK with your decision to leave and actually, with you out the way, I can be the best mother possible to this child. I am looking forward to bringing her up and perhaps growing our family one day with someone special who wants to be with us. I get it now that you love OW - go off and be with her. I see now you are right for each other". Would that be it?
I mean, I actually don't think I really beleive the above...part of me thinks it's partly a crock of sh!t. Am I the one with the acceptance problem? Please send 2x4's. I am a slow learner and need help!
As for not being responsible for my WH's parenting, I have a question. WH has not asked about our baby (6 weeks old) for the past two weeks while he has been galavanting with OW o/seas and where he is looking for work to establish himself. One question I have been asking myself today is should I be updating him on a hospital check she had today (she is not seriously unwell, but has an joint issue which needs to be reviewed) or sending him photos of milestones - in this case,a photo of her fist smile?
(((Piano)))
I don't know Piano.
A lot of days I lead with my heart when I know I shouldn't.
It's very hard....but, know you are not alone here
Keep posting.....there is a lot of good advice and support here.
For the record, I think your H is a jerk!! (((Piano)))
I was thinking about this topic, "Setting them free", while walking my dogs.
What sprang to mind was what kind of person you need to be to maintain a healthy relationship.
Specifically, I was thinking about the Three Cs:
Confidence: No matter what, you know you are going to be OK.
Character: Being principled. Doing what is right as if God is sitting right there watching everything you do. No cheating, lying, manipulating, and so on.
Control (as in Self-Control): No drunkeness, no calling somebody who doesn't respect you and want to be with you, good health routines (excercise), and so on.
Now granted, few people who come here have healthy partners, so these things may not attract their partners back to them (unless they become healthy themselves), but do you really want to be with somebody who is that unhealthy? They will drag you down into their personal Hell if you let them.
In the event that reconcilliation does not happen, wouldn't you want to be the kind of person that can be in a healthy relationship before you got into another relationship?
...but do you really want to be with somebody who is that unhealthy? They will drag you down into their personal Hell if you let them.
someone appears to be catching on ;-)
Gucci, re my previous post, any tips on how to acheive a full walk-away when there is an unborn baby OR a newborn baby in the mix.
I know that we are not supposed to see our sitchs as unique, but there are a few first time mums here on the forums with WAH's with or without an OW in the mix.
Detaching, Walking Away, Letting Go, are very tricky at the best of times, near impossible though when you have a new baby or are waiting to give birth to your WAH's child.
One can't 'hand over' a newborn baby to it's father, as you can with older children who already have an established relationshiop with both parents. New mothers have to be nearby the newborn at all times (even if it means in the next room) if she is nursing because they feed almost constantly, for one -- a rhythm to which no firm schedule can be applied. Plus you are encouraged to give as much visitation access to the father so they can bond with their baby and hopefully be involved with co-parenting - this is widely seen as the Right thing to do by the child.
We are all devastated by WAS's. But any perenatal psychologist would say a woman is experiencing extreme hormonal peeks when she is pregnant and in the weeks post birth. Every fibre in the mother's being wants to keep her family intact. It is perhaps, if we allow it, a small point of difference-physiologically the pregnant woman is a hormonal beast!
I am having trouble Letting Go when I have to see WH so he can see the baby in my presence (I now sit in another room and have a family member present instead, but I would like to be courageous enough again to facilitate the visitations myself).
Plus, and this is another put where I get stuck, is how do you give the Robx "I'm OK with this too" speech when there is nothing OK about a father walking out on a pregnant wife ? Or is that a judegemental, value-ladden falsity (ie controlling)?
Do you want to be with someone you would have to force to stay with you? Ask yourself that question. Assess your self-worth, you know you're worth more than this, if he doesn't want to be with you, let him go, it's his loss, give him the freedom that he says he wants and always view it as his loss because it is. He may not see it now or a few weeks/months from now but he will see it.
What happens if you 'set them free' but they won't go away???
My exH said again the other day when he returned the kids how "DONE" he was. OK fine.
But then he is texting me every single day. Offering me his leftover chinese food in his fridge bc he's gone on a business trip and it will go bad? Really? Telling me he has an ear infection...ummm did I ask?
I tend to ignore and then he goes mean and underhanded, hits me where it hurts. Little passive aggressive texts when he has the kids demeaning my parenting skills.
Example, "Two words. Mosquito spray."
Guess they were whining about bug bites and he couldn't handle it. (And of course I had used bug spray.)
If I keep ignoring him will it really go away?
Yes. It takes two to have a conversation.
You can SAY "done" all you want, BobbiJo. If your ACTIONS say you're still enmeshed with him, then he's not going to get the message.
The Gucci/Robx "speech" can't be faked. You have to REALLY BE letting them go. If you still respond to bullying, passive-aggressive, button-pushing TMs, then you really haven't let them go.
Puppy
What happens if you 'set them free' but they won't go away???
In my experience, that was (x)W's way of begging for help, for me to 'smack her over the head and take her away from the evil situation she put herself in'.
If I keep ignoring him will it really go away?
yes ... you are giving him a reward by responding.
If I respond when my XH gets in his woe-is-me (or pissy) texting mode ... I send one final text.
Good night.. or bye...
something indicating I am no longer reading and the conversation is done. Then I set my phone on silent & go GAL.
At first it increases the frequency of the texts as they text and/or call to see if they can hook you in... but then eventually, even ones like Dan & my XH learn that they aren't going to get from you what ever it was they were seeking.
You are in education.. read about how it works for teachers & student behaviours here.
http://wik.ed.uiuc.edu/index.php/ExtinctionNote particularly the section about extinticon by omission
Extinction by Omission
In these cases the teacher or authority figure completely removes any reinforcement in response to the student’s misbehavior. As seen above, this may require the teacher to completely ignore the student. Generally, in cases where omission is used the teacher can expect:
* An initial increase in the frequency of the unwanted behavior (O’Reilly et al., 1999)
* An escalation in the type of misbehavior the student is engaging in (Shukla-Mehta and Albin, 2003)
* An extended (and sometimes repeated) period of time for the treatment to take effect (O’Reilly et al., 1999)
Think of dealing with Dan's texting & unwanted drop-ins, bad communication like you would one of the students. How would you handle that?
Bridge
Something like "I am OK with your decision to leave and actually, with you out the way, I can be the best mother possible to this child. I am looking forward to bringing her up and perhaps growing our family one day with someone special who wants to be with us. I get it now that you love OW - go off and be with her. I see now you are right for each other". Would that be it?
I mean, I actually don't think I really beleive the above...part of me thinks it's partly a crock of sh!t. Am I the one with the acceptance problem?
I HAVE NEVER said "I want you and OW to be happy" and I refuse to because it is a lie! I did say back in March 09 when I "set him free" physically, (WARNING- offensive language here...but I was 8months pregnant and it was the last and only time I went OFF on my stbxh and was unleashed! I never posted it in my thread--and it is only what I remember saying because I was in a rage, throwing things, banging the table and crying....)
"fine. I will not force you or talk you into being with me. Obviously you want her. So go ahead--go after your F-ing DREAM GIRL SOULMATE TRUE LOVE! You can have as much f-ing sex with her and be stupid enough to believe all of her f-ing fake orgasms and you can become wrapped up in her drama! I hope it feels so f-ing good to f her p--y and it's worth it to leave YOUR PREGNANT WIFE that you promised to love and cherish for the rest of your life! And you are choosing P--Y over your son!!! You (*&^%$##^*()@!@#$^ !!"
i think part of the deal with setting them free is to free yourself from the anger as well.
anger rots your soul.
someone very clever here said .. it's like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die/feel the pain.
you are only hurting yourself. you deserve better than that.
You know, there's a 'comic relief' thread of sorts over in "surviving" that had a joke describing the medical difference in having guts, and having balls, however to have the brass to screw around a pregnant woman, is beyond words towards insane
i think part of the deal with setting them free is to free yourself from the anger as well.
EXACTLY!
You can not change them or their actions. And the more you wallow over it and try and try again to change it, the more you drag yourself down.
It's like trying to save someone in a boat while your on shore, and they have doused themselvees in gasoline and are ready to strike a match, your instinct says to save them, but guess what? You can't swim.
I agree! I was angry in March 09, and didn't get angry again until April 10 through June. Now I feel indifferent...just sympathy for the poor, unfortunate soul....pathetic! that my stbxh is right now! But it felt good to be so angry at him initially and my hormones were raging!
What happens if you 'set them free' but they won't go away???
In my experience, that was (x)W's way of begging for help, for me to 'smack her over the head and take her away from the evil situation she put herself in'.
Yeah but I don't want to have to be the rescuer......I know you guys are reconciled, so apparently that worked for you guys? I don't think that would work here.
What happens if you 'set them free' but they won't go away???
In my experience, that was (x)W's way of begging for help, for me to 'smack her over the head and take her away from the evil situation she put herself in'.
Yeah but I don't want to have to be the rescuer......I know you guys are reconciled, so apparently that worked for you guys? I don't think that would work here.
Ahh, see I knew I had to throw that in somehow.....In my setting her free, I DIDN'T do that for her and let her clean up her own mess. I don't think we'd be anywhere remotely close to where we are now if I did.
You know, there's a 'comic relief' thread of sorts over in "surviving" that had a joke describing the medical difference in having guts, and having balls, however to have the brass to screw around a pregnant woman, is beyond words towards insane
Ha! True!
So, is leaving a pregnant woman another category altogether then (in the dealbreaker/inexcusable stakes)? Or is that just a fiction we tell ourselves to feed our martyrdom?
No, we shouldn't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with us. And anger eats you alive.
It's OK to say "
I am better off without you", but how can you add "and so is our unborn child".
It's just not true, IMHO.
Maybe that's why the Robx speech can't be adapated to this sitch... Because you cannot say you are OK with their choice?
*Newmama, thanks for having the guts to share your rant. I gave that one too!
On further refelction, I guess the rest of the speech could go "...and the baby deserves someone who loves them and wants to be there for them 100% of the time and that is obviously not you, so at least now I can get on with the business of finding a new husband and great step-father."
"Anger eats you alive?" It only hurts us?
Uh, no, that is a crock. If that were true, then there would be no such thing as "emotional abuse."
Anger does indeed hurt more than just "us."
Either words cut like a knife, or they don't. Can't have it both ways.
I recently filed for divorce and packed up everything and am making the most of my singledom/ freedom by backpacking round the world. Now, who is the person that has suddenly found his voice - stbxh. I would say out of all my friends he has been in the most regular contact. He even dropped into and email that he has applied for a job in Australia which is bizarre because he knows that is where I am. This is the guy who has been so totally avoident for 2.5 years!
I do reply to messages etc but ususally wait a while before doing so. I always let him initiate. Is this the right way to be playing it?
Ok question about this space thing. My H has left to get space yet says he wont be gone long. In the mean time he has called about stupid stuff and sending texts because I don't answer. Then he calls leaving and texts about what he's doing will try and call later tried to call but I didn't answer blah blah blah. Seriously it has been 2 days. He wanted this space and now that it is here and I've was accepting of ,I am really at peace with it I think I need it. I dont want to be ugly and the space is so we can work this out (if a miracle happens..his words)so I don't fell like talking right now. I don't answer or reply. I mean if it was about our daughter yeah ok but right now I don't want to talk about R. Am I wrong? Is there a better way to handle this?
This topic has been insightful...
I guess if I look at my sitch honestly and what my actions have been over the last 5+ months my H has been gone, I never truly dropped the rope threads and let him go. I have a few threads still attached for fear that he would NEVER come back.
Now, with his deployment, the only interaction we have is via email and phone. Even with these limited communications, I still have threads attached.
In some ways, (Maybe ??) he does too. he sends me am email sometimes out of the blue to let me know about his day. He was telling me that he is working with you know that General who recently passed out at a Senate hearing (didn't want to post his name, but those of you who follow the news know who i am talking about).
When he initiates, I have always answered his calls or messages almost immediately. I know.. BAD THING TO DO! I am grasping for anytime with him (so that he knows I care). How do I move beyond this? I spent time with family and friends over that last few days, went back to work, and just trying to get out of the house we built that has so many memories..
How to detach when your heart threads are still tied?.... not sure.
I mean if it was about our daughter yeah ok but right now I don't want to talk about R. Am I wrong? Is there a better way to handle this?
Good job.. The thing I would add is that when you do talk that you let him know that NOW you agree that YOU need space and that you are not sure how YOU now feel. Then get off the phone quickly and politely.
Let him go and let him wonder if HE has lost YOU. .That is what works the best.
All in all you have done a fine job.
Gucci, thank you I just wanted some input to see if what I felt and was doing was ok and your right I should tell him that when we talk and will do so. I have to be true to myself if I want to be happy even if it means my marriage the end of my marriage.
BUMP.
- just making it easier to find in the newcomers forum, a lot of people need to read this.
i'm ready to set him free and file for d myself.
forget this waiting crap.
i have a happy life. i have things i do. plenty of friends.
we are already living two separate lives anyway. might as well put the final nail in the coffin.
i'm ready to set him free and file for d myself.
forget this waiting crap.
i have a happy life. i have things i do. plenty of friends.
we are already living two separate lives anyway. might as well put the final nail in the coffin.
Well thought out decision.
You can handle it, sister.
Greek
What is wrong with being the rescuer? They are in pain. They are confussed. what is wrong with helping them?
What is wrong with being the rescuer? They are in pain. They are confussed. what is wrong with helping them?
Simple, Par. It's not good for you (doesn't work, makes you look weak and supplicating, and therefore unattractive to them) and it's not good for them, either (doesn't force them to deal with the natural consequences of their poor behavior, and so they learn nothing).
Other than that, it's a wonderful strategy.
Puppy
THERE is the difference ladies... I think most all of us men enjoy and like to be with a woman who thinks we are all of that and a loaf of bread... The difference is when we test you. If you fail those tests of your inner strength, then you are destined to lose him. We do need a little challenge to keep us on our toes...
gucci, what are these 'tests' that you speak of?
What is wrong with being the rescuer? They are in pain. They are confussed. what is wrong with helping them?
isn't that a co-dependent mentality?
there isn't anything wrong with helping as long as you know your boundaries.
at some point you need to realize that they need to help themselves.
What is wrong with being the rescuer? They are in pain. They are confussed. what is wrong with helping them?
Simple, Par. It's not good for you (doesn't work, makes you look weak and supplicating, and therefore unattractive to them) and it's not good for them, either (doesn't force them to deal with the natural consequences of their poor behavior, and so they learn nothing).
Other than that, it's a wonderful strategy. Puppy
Ah, there's the saucy response that makes me giggle ...
Thanks for the laugh!!!
Gucci,
I've been reading this and I'm happy to say that I've gotten my ducks in a row and I'm in the process of purchasing my home so W can move out. I'm letting go!!!
I've been struggling with my temper though, she manages to engage me in conversations that get me emotional. I'm really trying to "drop the rope" but what advice do you give couples who are stuck together in the same home.
I want to show her that I'm ok without her but she keeps dragging me down.....
I'm really trying to "drop the rope" but what advice do you give couples who are stuck together in the same home.
Tell me about it. I had a hard time with this phase. I think the standard advice is going to be find things to do outside the home if you can (sometimes I am on call for a week at a time, so that made it darn near impossible for that to happen then), and keep interactions civil.
I can't wait to hear better advice than this however. That would be good. Not that it applies to me anymore, but going dim so you can heal when somebody is right there was darn near impossible for me.
I've got this issue too- living in same house for various reasons. I try to get out a lot, do my own thing when we're both home, etc. It's not perfect, but it's the best I can do when we're in the same house. Now, emotionally and mentally truly letting go, well, I'm not there yet. It's probably easier if you don't live together but if I weren't living with him, I think my thoughts and paranoia about what he's doing or who he's with would actually be MUCH worse--
NB-
Also consider that HE would also start to wonder what YOU are up to and that's a good thing.
My 2c.
I'm really trying to "drop the rope" but what advice do you give couples who are stuck together in the same home.
One of you move. If they won't then you DO..
I would not hesitate to move if my wife was wayward and she wouldn't move...
I WILL NOT live, stay or be with a woman who doesn't freely want to be with me. It is either she move or I move, but ONE of us WILL move.....
Not to start an arguement here, but haven't we been told over and over that we (LBS) shouldn't leave the home just because they (WAS) want us to? I gotta say, I probably would have left months ago if it wasn't for the advice I got here. It would make things easier to a certain extent. I have stayed for the kids, mostly.
Just looking for some clarification?
This is a great thread by the way! Lots of wisdom, here.
the advice was not to get kicked out of your home with your tail caught between your legs, leave because you want to leave, not because your WAS wants you to leave so they can have their affair partner move in and sleep in your bed.
- there is a difference!
I gotta second that thought by Idontunderstand.
Part of the "don't leave the house" advice has to do with the leaver being labeled as abandoning the family in possible D proceedings. I spoke to an attorney before I left to stay with my parents and he said as long as you establish a visitation/custody arrangement with the WAS you can't be labeled as abandoning the family. The atty also told me to document the amount of time spent with the children so that you can make a better case for the custody that you desire in case of D.
the advice was not to get kicked out of your home with your tail caught between your legs, leave because you want to leave, not because your WAS wants you to leave so they can have their affair partner move in and sleep in your bed.
- there is a difference!
Correct. BIG difference. ONE of you is leaving because you will NOT tolerate or live with or be with someone having an affair. I believe it should be YOU since you had the affair. The sooner the better. I will even help you pack. What say, by the end of next week..
Then if they don't or won't... Then YOU move..... The key is that you will NOT tolerate an affair while living under the same roof..
Remember to get your ducks in a row first... Cover all bases.
First you push, pull, nag, whatever it takes to convince them they are moving.. Then if not.. Plan B.. YOU MOVE.. YOU are deciding....
First you push, pull, nag, whatever it takes to convince them they are moving.. Then if not.. Plan B.. YOU MOVE.. YOU are deciding....
I get what you are saying. What about the kids thinking that I am the one leaving them? That is the other big reason I have not left. She can't afford the house, insurance, gas, utilities, sitters for the kids, etc. I would be stuck paying everything and paying my own bills.
I guess, with kids, it's best to try and stay. I am building up to filing myself. Then we will have to work everything out like it or not.
idontunderstand - you seem to have the same concerns and issues I do with my W. Abandonment in possible D proceedings, what will the kids think, and that means I will be paying for the house and everything else PLUS all expense where ever I moved to. Also, I have zero proof of my wife having an EA/PA, and Ive collected a lot of intel, my biggest problem seems to be her mother.
At the same time, I see in another thread we need to get over our 'fear' -
I just know one thing, I am really getting sick and tired of this sitch, something needs to change, and soon. The longer this goes on, the more resentment is building toward my W. Im getting tired of living like this.
Legal ramifications and children need to come before most DB tactics, I think!
idontunderstand - you seem to have the same concerns and issues I do with my W. Abandonment in possible D proceedings, what will the kids think, and that means I will be paying for the house and everything else PLUS all expense where ever I moved to. Also, I have zero proof of my wife having an EA/PA, and Ive collected a lot of intel, my biggest problem seems to be her mother.
At the same time, I see in another thread we need to get over our 'fear' -
I just know one thing, I am really getting sick and tired of this sitch, something needs to change, and soon. The longer this goes on, the more resentment is building toward my W. Im getting tired of living like this.
For one thing, you have caught on a lot sooner that I did. I still have not completly got over my fear of losing my M. Even though after doing some of the things I was afraid to do got the best results.
I am not afraid of making my W "mad" anymore. Coach says it's good if she gets mad and that does make sense. We have to do what's best for us and our kids. Doing the right thing is not always easy.
I, too, find my resentment of my W building. Maybe it's a way to make detachment easier. Even if she said today,"I want us to fix this.", I would not be so quick to jump back in with both feet.
Hrere's an interesting question (and I'm posting on my thread and Setting Free)
Is there a conflict betwee setting them free and going through the exposure stage?
It appears to me that exposing my W and OM will appear to be me seeking revenge/raetaliation. Somthing done out of hurt.
If I'm setting her free, why would I do anything at all?
Just let them wallow in their own mess.
Uh Oh....I was just reading the last couple posts on this thread.
On Tuesday my Husband had me served with divorce papers, that night he called and asked if he should come home, I kinda laughed and said," You just had me served, you want a divorce, yet you want to stay here"? He never did come home that night.
Last night he came here to tell the Girls and get some of his stuff, when I asked where he was staying he said you told me I can't stay here. I don't remember actually sayiny those words. I wonder if he is playing games with me so he doesnt look like he abandond the family.
Live happy
Always agree
Be confident
Such simple words....such a powerful goal and mantra for
one's life. All of DBing is compressed into those 6 little
words.
I will state categorically, that the reason all of us are
here is b/c we violated at least on of the above. I
acknowledge that I violated all 3 - repeatedly.
Live happy
Always agree
Be confident
Books can and have been written about each point and our
unique, individual views thereof, so I'll just limit myself
to a few thoughts on each...feel free to add your own, for
sharing together, we build off of each other's
knowledge...I will be happy to read them.
Live happy.....Living happily means that you are the owner
of your own life - you are not the victim of circumstance.
You pick and choose who and what influences you and how and
most of all, it's the realization that you and you alone
create your own happiness....you are freed from the burden
of having others be responsible for that. It means you find
joy in the world you create and find happiness in the world
around. Ever been around someone with an infectious joy for
life? Be that person for yourself. Own your world. When you
live happy, you are able to always agree and exude
confidence.
Always agree - In matters of perception, the other person
is *always* right. Why not make them righter? If we
disagree with someone's perspective, we are making them
wrong - and making them wronger only makes them dig in
more, for they are sure they are as right as we think we
are. In addition, by making them righter, by not fighting
against them, we are demonstrating our own internal sense
of security - we know our point of view and are strong
enough to be able to listen to someone else's...esp so when
we confidently agree w/o being or
feeling "defensive"! "Your perception is right and I'm so
confident of myself that I've no need to defend myself!" -
do you think our Ss would dig this? Furthermore, by
agreeing, we show empathy and take away any reasons they
may have to fight against us. Now, always agreeing doesn't
mean you cannot present your point of view - far from it -
in fact, it helps your point of view be heard, for you are
showing that you're hearing theirs. It also doesn't mean
that we cannot be in control - far from it there too - we
can agree to something and either make it seem like our
decision and/or set the terms of the actual happening. All
we've done is take the fight right out of them and made
them more right. Last thought here - would you prefer to be
married to a person who's more right or more wrong? Think
about how your disagreeing with them reflects back on you.
When you always agree, you live happy and are confident.
Be confident - the simplest and yet the hardest to define.
To thine own self be true. When you're confident, you don't
need to pursue. You don't need reassurance. You don't
pressure. You don't need to feel sorry for yourself. You
don't need the other person in your life. You don't "need"
period - you merely prefer. When you're confident, suddenly
it just doesn't matter what she says or does, for you are
confident of your direction in life and end purpose and
goals. When you're confident, you know it's okay to "fail"
for it only becomes a learning experience and you know
you'll do better next time. When you're confident, you stop
saying "I'm sorry" and asking for permission: Words
like "would" and "should" and "could" disappear from your
life. When you are confident, you live happily and are
secure enough to always agree.
Live happy
Always agree
Be confident
Michele taught us a valuable lesson - how to acheive these
goals - by doing them! To live happy, all it takes is to
act happy - pretend at first, but do it! To always agree,
merely stop disagreeing, no matter if ever fiber in your
body screams "defend yourself, defend yourself!". To be
confident, make little decisions and make more of them.
Live happy
Always agree
Be confident
That's all it takes. That's all there is.
Live happy
Always agree
Be confident
I'll second that, it was pretty freakin' awesome, words to live by:
Live happy
Always agree
Be confident
I didn't write it. I quoted it from this thread. I use this as my bookmark for DB. I learned a lot by reading this when I first got here, I still use it. Thought it would be helpful on this thread.
Cheers
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...ite_id=1#import
Just a quick question. It's become really apparent that there's no OM and the EA I suspected is really pretty shallow and one sided. I think the biggest issue is the lack of physical attraction due to so much neglect. Is the moving quickly towards separation the proper step to try and make things work? I'm doing my 180s, GAL, and the communication between the two of us has never been better.
Our plan is to try and sell the house next spring, and then get separate housing. I don't like the limbo aspect of this, but there are a billion practical reasons to wait til spring to split. She's said she's in no huge rush either, but I can't tell if that's cake eating, or just wanting to avoid disrupting our Ds. She's said she's afraid of trying to make it on her own financially.
Two things:
1. I don't agree with always agree. (There's irony) Always validate.
2. Pinhead: It's a matter of triage. The attraction is the last thing to come back. First, you stop the bleeding. The WAW needs to feel safe to express her feelings. She needs to feel that the changes you are making are real and not just to get her back. She needs to have fun around you and not feel badly for you or find you a drag. But it's not a linear thing. In the same way that the littlest setback can bring the panic and anxiety back in you, the littlest sign of reconnection can bring back her panic and anxiety and she can withdraw. Remember, a WAW walks away because she has come to an emotional state where it is less painful to walk away than to face the problems in her relationship. Someone (possibly coach?) compared the process to befriending a stray cat. I think that's about right. On the one hand they want to reconnect. On the other, they're afraid.
Finally, the books and the DB coaches will tell you to STALL any move towards separation or divorce. However, I have not been doing research into sitchs where there is a PA or EA and don't have experience there (I don't believe so, anyway.) I don't know if the stalling tactic applies in those cases.
Just my opinion based on my experience.
Two things:
1. I don't agree with always agree. (There's irony) Always validate.
2. Pinhead: It's a matter of triage. The attraction is the last thing to come back. First, you stop the bleeding. The WAW needs to feel safe to express her feelings. She needs to feel that the changes you are making are real and not just to get her back. She needs to have fun around you and not feel badly for you or find you a drag. But it's not a linear thing. In the same way that the littlest setback can bring the panic and anxiety back in you, the littlest sign of reconnection can bring back her panic and anxiety and she can withdraw. Remember, a WAW walks away because she has come to an emotional state where it is less painful to walk away than to face the problems in her relationship. Someone (possibly coach?) compared the process to befriending a stray cat. I think that's about right. On the one hand they want to reconnect. On the other, they're afraid.
Finally, the books and the DB coaches will tell you to STALL any move towards separation or divorce. However, I have not been doing research into sitchs where there is a PA or EA and don't have experience there (I don't believe so, anyway.) I don't know if the stalling tactic applies in those cases.
Just my opinion based on my experience.
OK MakingProgress,
I agree with you on point #1 of your post,
I guess since I agree with you and your opinion, we can't really argue about it.
What else do you want to talk about since we agree?
;-)
WAW: "I want a divorce and I will never love you again.
I found someone else and am madly and passionately in love with them. I would like you to let me go and not try to win me back in any way shape or form. Please leave me alone and don't try to disagree with me that you don't want a divorce because it won't make any difference. My mind is made up."
You can go ahead and try to validate that without agreeing and I will take my chances agreeing. Agreeing helps them to FEEL validated far far better. When you disagree not only do they not feel validated, but YOU don't feel validated.
How validated would you feel if you told your spouse "I don't want this divorce and I understand you do, but I want to try."
And she says."I understand you don't want the divorce and want to try, but I am done and strongly disagree with you that it can even be saved. I want out. Nothing you can say will change my mind. I do want you to know I understand your feelings." (which IS what most WAS's are actually saying with their words and actions)
OR... would you rather hear?:
Betrayed: "I don't want this divorce and will do whatever it takes to make this work. I am sorry for what I have done."
WAW: "I have heard what you said, and I agree with you. I think you are right and we should try and I agree that we should do whatever to make this work."
Either way can be called "validating" One way you FEEL validated and the other, not so much..
So, you can validate till the cows come home, BUT if the OTHER PERSON doesn't FEEL validated it means nothing. It isn't what YOU feel is validating,but what the person you are communicating with that needs to feel validated for it to be true validation.
Sigh...
The W has never actually said divorce, just separation. But "trust nothing they say, and only 1/2 of what they do" tells me that she's wants out. I think she's just scared of the consequences.
So do I put my BBB (big boy boxers) on and encourage her to move out ASAP? I can manage financially better than I expected, and Limbo is a sucky place to be.
And she says."I understand you don't want the divorce and want to try, but I am done and strongly disagree with you that it can even be saved. I want out. Nothing you can say will change my mind. I do want you to know I understand your feelings." (which IS what most WAS's are actually saying with their words and actions).
WOW Deja Vu!
<Plugs ears> LALA LALA LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! LOL
I failed on this. I failed horribly...It was ALL about me, I did not do this correctly.
Sigh...
The W has never actually said divorce, just separation. But "trust nothing they say, and only 1/2 of what they do" tells me that she's wants out. I think she's just scared of the consequences.
So do I put my BBB (big boy boxers) on and encourage her to move out ASAP? I can manage financially better than I expected,
and Limbo is a sucky place to be.
Your decision, sounds like you've been thinking about your life though, I agree limbo is a "sucky place" to be, I choose to live life "limbo free", but that's just me, what you choose for your life is up to you.
2. Pinhead: It's a matter of triage. The attraction is the last thing to come back. First, you stop the bleeding. The WAW needs to feel safe to express her feelings. She needs to feel that the changes you are making are real and not just to get her back. She needs to have fun around you and not feel badly for you or find you a drag. But it's not a linear thing. In the same way that the littlest setback can bring the panic and anxiety back in you, the littlest sign of reconnection can bring back her panic and anxiety and she can withdraw. Remember, a WAW walks away because she has come to an emotional state where it is less painful to walk away than to face the problems in her relationship.
And that is the moment you have released them. You then follow through on exactly what you have told them. Keep all your cards close to your chest. Mysterious. Not mean. Not punitive. Not angry exept for callng the affair what it is.. AN affair.
But what if there hasn't been an affair?
WAW: "I want a divorce and I will never love you again.
I found someone else and am madly and passionately in love with them. I would like you to let me go and not try to win me back in any way shape or form. Please leave me alone and don't try to disagree with me that you don't want a divorce because it won't make any difference. My mind is made up."
You can go ahead and try to validate that without agreeing and I will take my chances agreeing. Agreeing helps them to FEEL validated far far better. When you disagree not only do they not feel validated, but YOU don't feel validated.
How validated would you feel if you told your spouse "I don't want this divorce and I understand you do, but I want to try."
And she says."I understand you don't want the divorce and want to try, but I am done and strongly disagree with you that it can even be saved. I want out. Nothing you can say will change my mind. I do want you to know I understand your feelings." (which IS what most WAS's are actually saying with their words and actions)
OR... would you rather hear?:
Betrayed: "I don't want this divorce and will do whatever it takes to make this work. I am sorry for what I have done."
WAW: "I have heard what you said, and I agree with you. I think you are right and we should try and I agree that we should do whatever to make this work."
Either way can be called "validating" One way you FEEL validated and the other, not so much..
So, you can validate till the cows come home, BUT if the OTHER PERSON doesn't FEEL validated it means nothing. It isn't what YOU feel is validating,but what the person you are communicating with that needs to feel validated for it to be true validation.
I understand and agree with your position, but I think the Live Happy, Always Validate (my version), and Be Confident is about not getting into the position where you have a WAW. (Though I realize it was quoted as part of DBing.) Once you're there, it's similar, but not the same as you have pointed out and when there is OM involved, that changes things, too.
Another thought: I think we use the term Walkaway Spouse/Wife to encompass more than it was intended to encompass. MWD described this as a particular syndrome and although DBing, or parts of DBing may be effective in many marriages in crises, WAW syndrome was not intended to describe every situation where a spouse wants to leave a marriage.
Another thought: I think we use the term Walkaway Spouse/Wife to encompass more than it was intended to encompass. MWD described this as a particular syndrome and although DBing, or parts of DBing may be effective in many marriages in crises, WAW syndrome was not intended to describe every situation where a spouse wants to leave a marriage.
Agreed!
Okay.
if you’re confident, independent and have self-esteem, you don’t need external validation
so to validate? agree? affirm? does it matter?
WAW: "I want a divorce and I will never love you again.
I found someone else and am madly and passionately in love with them. I would like you to let me go
when you hear any of that, you just got dumped. plain and simple.
Okay, seems like one too many words to say to someone who really doesn't care what you think.
Another thought: I think we use the term Walkaway Spouse/Wife to encompass more than it was intended to encompass. MWD described this as a particular syndrome and although DBing, or parts of DBing may be effective in many marriages in crises, WAW syndrome was not intended to describe every situation where a spouse wants to leave a marriage.
Agreed!
I agree that every spouse that walks away from a marriage is a walk away spouse ;-)
Wouldn't you agree that a spouse who walks away from a marriage is a walk away spouse?
I understand and agree with your position,
Thanks. I now feel validated.
I feel like a bad Oprah episode.
Or is that redundant?
I understand and agree with your position,
Thanks. I now feel validated.
"Call me a cab."
"You're a cab."
"Do you serve crabs here?"
"Yes, sir. We serve everyone, sit right down."
"You say potata I say potato, you say tomata, I say tomato."
"let's call the whole thing off."
Just feeling a little froggy right now.
Geez, this is to PUNishing for me to take much longer.
Another thought: I think we use the term Walkaway Spouse/Wife to encompass more than it was intended to encompass. MWD described this as a particular syndrome and although DBing, or parts of DBing may be effective in many marriages in crises, WAW syndrome was not intended to describe every situation where a spouse wants to leave a marriage.
Agreed!
I agree that every spouse that walks away from a marriage is a walk away spouse ;-)
Wouldn't you agree that a spouse who walks away from a marriage is a walk away spouse?
Well, I understand how one might feel that way
but in the context of MWD's work, including this website, "Walkaway" has a particular meaning and I think it might become confusing if we refer to every spouse who initiates a divorce as a walkaway, but perhaps that's just me?
Okay.
if you’re confident, independent and have self-esteem, you don’t need external validation
so to validate? agree? affirm? does it matter?
That's what I thought and that's what landed me here. It turns out that women need validation on a biochemical level and if they don't get it, it impedes their ability to produce certain hormones which inhibits their ability to handle stress and feel "connected." Surprise! At least, I was surprised to learn this. I feel like I should have been handed a manual at the altar. Take a look at John Gray's "Why Mars and Venus Collide: Improving Relationships by Understanding How Men and Women Cope Differently with Stress"
There is also a substantial difference between agreeing and validating and it is an important difference. After my wife dropped the bomb, we had a couple of R conversations. During one of them she said that she didn't remember ever having a conversation about emotions with me where she walked away feeling good about herself. That was news to me, not because I didn't realize that she never walked away feeling good, but BECAUSE I NEVER REALIZED WE HAD EVEN A SINGLE CONVERSATION ABOUT EMOTIONS!
I thought we were having discussions about actual family and child rearing issues that needed a resolution. She just needed to hear me acknowledge her feelings and worries and not tell her that she was overreacting etc. Now you can't always be in validation mode because sometimes you have to actually address the issues at hand. John Gray suggests that couples should be clear about what kind of conversation they are having. Hey, I certainly would have liked to have known.
Now if your spouse says that she is worried about (fill in some preposterous scenario) validating just means that you acknowledge that they are worried, not that the preposterous scenario is going to happen, is worth worrying about, etc., should be handled the way their fear seems to dictate.
Honestly, it's like learning a new language. I hope I'm not coming off as overbearing. I feel the grief pouring into this forum and it's a grief that I was very recently experiencing myself and I just want to share the insight that I have gained in a very narrow area. I don't know diddly about how to deal with PA or EA's, but I could be the poster boy for the withdrawing/invalidating husband, a distinction of which I am thoroughly ashamed.
That sounds like me, buddy.
What resources or threads can you recommend
That sounds like me, buddy.
What resources or threads can you recommend
I did a lot of research, but I’ve boiled down the list to the following. I was very skeptical of the Men are from Mars books as I presumed they were pop psych books. It’s hard to dismiss them, though, when you have no idea what happened in your relationship and you learn that they completely describe your behavior and your wife’s response. The below books will allow you to stop focusing on your own pain and focus on hers because you’ll begin to understand how her emotional well being has been slowly and steadily eroded. As much trauma as we’ve experienced in one fell swoop, they have experienced over a long period. As you gain more insight, be prepared to feel guilty, but you need to move past that to where you will actually feel compassion for her. You will begin to look at her as similar to a person who is drowning. They would never intentionally drown another person, but in trying to save themselves, they will pull others (you and your children) under too. They’re just trying to save themselves. (Of course, this doesn’t apply to every sitch.) That is how much pain and distress THEY are in.
John Gray “Men are From Mars, Women are from Venus.”
John Gray “Why Mars and Venus Collide: Improving Relationships by Understanding How Men and Women Cope Differently with Stress Why Mars and Venus Collide: Improving Relationships by Understanding How Men and Women Cope Differently with Stress”
MWD “Divorce Remedy.”
Gary Chapman “The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love That Lasts”
Patricia Love, et al, “Hot to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It” (Sounds snarky, but it’s not.)
Patricia Love, “The Truth about Love”
Plenty of other good books, but these are the ones that come immediately to mind.
Good luck.
Wow, other than John Gray I have them.
I had Gray's first book but years ago. Not sure if I still do.
Did "How to fix your marriage..." and enjoyed ot so much, lent it to my sister.
DR is how I got here!
I'll look for thr "Collide" one. I feel the same about Mr Gray. But I'll give it a look.
Thanks.
"Collide" is the most scientific of the bunch and provides the biological basis for the differences between the sexes in regard to how we function in relationships and why our current sociological paradigm has contributed to the problem. Reading that one was a very important step for me.
Thank you.
As always, it's either "Brains and Logic" (DB) and/or Science to the rescue.
Setting them free is the key...
It will also begin to set YOU free...
Any thoughts?
I have heard many people say "I don't want to look back and say that I didn't try everything"
A fish poem.
There was nothing to do in Missoula. We went to school, read about evolution, hiked, and drank at the Iron Horse, or Rhino, fished. Easily 3 friends flunked out in fall or skipped Winter quarter for a long ski season, and who spent their nights tying flies and smoking. There were 12 of us in '91 hitching rides up to Snow Bowl. No problems. There was no problem getting a handful of buggers, nymphs or tinys for cost of materials and some beers.
Fly fishing was an addiction, or maybe a substitute for an addiction, or just a reason to walk along the river bank, but we did. Daily. Years worth of hours spent waist deep in the Blackfoot, wading, casting back and forth for trout, smelling of DEET and sweat and tobacco, thinking about GXE interactions, and philosophizing about the tree that fell in the woods that no one heard and changed the dynamics. The confidence interval in our equations. The fuzzy reason at the end of the chromosomes. The reason for those unmapped genes.
"The river ran through it." It ran through me. Became me. It was silent. Sometimes I just watched the flies hatch and began learning about life; then live a really strange existence. If they got too close, I caught them in a net and tried to memorize them. Some days, I just fished, but I was never really good at it. I could never imagine myself killing and eating another living creature. So, I usually fished left handed. Eventually caught one or two. I would reel them in real slowly. They would fight me. Its their nature.
If my wife is right they are souls that are young to this earth experiencing their way through the levels of existence. I don't know. To me they looked like underwater killing machines. Maybe they were angry, or jealous. Or I was weird to them so they stared at me funny. Sometimes I would get two wander by me. Always 2, underwater, handsome like two Italian hit men looking at my green "legs" in the water, from the corner of their eye. I was too big for food and moved about to much so shelter. If I looked one in the eye they would look away. I wasn't one of them.
I would reel them in real slowly, the fish. To me it was a game, to them it was their life. It mattered more to one of us. I handled them like I did my newborn daughter, gently, scared, lovingly, looked at them, let them go and said goodbye. I had a life that was so important to me and they had theirs. I realized I could never be as brave as them grasping at anything to survive. But I made decisions. Wise decisions. I just let them go, swim away. There was a reason for what they were doing, and so was I. Something bigger and better but still the same.
That is a great post serenity. I was one that was going to wait for years for ex to come back. I realized tonight that I am better than she is. I have seen it, everyone has seen it, everyone, I just didn't want to accept it. I am done. I know that she will be on my doorsteps in a few months. Screw her. I am done. I am better than the hurt that she gave me. I am better than she is. She is a drug addict. I am a grad student. Why did I give a damn. It is still baffling.
Another thought: I think we use the term Walkaway Spouse/Wife to encompass more than it was intended to encompass. MWD described this as a particular syndrome and although DBing, or parts of DBing may be effective in many marriages in crises, WAW syndrome was not intended to describe every situation where a spouse wants to leave a marriage.
Sorry you lost me here. Why do you think this?
Another thought: I think we use the term Walkaway Spouse/Wife to encompass more than it was intended to encompass. MWD described this as a particular syndrome and although DBing, or parts of DBing may be effective in many marriages in crises, WAW syndrome was not intended to describe every situation where a spouse wants to leave a marriage.
Sorry you lost me here. Why do you think this?
Because Michelle Weiner Davis coined the term Walkaway Wife in describing a particular "syndrome," not any spouse that wants out of a marriage. Some wives leave because their husband is having an affair, has temper issues, drug addiction, etc. The WAW leaves because of a lack of connection, or at least the feeling that the connection is lost. Here is a link to MWD's article on the subject in Psychology today, though I know there is a similar article somewhere on this site.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/divorce-busting/200803/the-walkaway-wife-syndrome
Wow, other than John Gray I have them.
I had Gray's first book but years ago. Not sure if I still do.
Did "How to fix your marriage..." and enjoyed ot so much, lent it to my sister.
DR is how I got here!
I'll look for thr "Collide" one. I feel the same about Mr Gray. But I'll give it a look.
Thanks.
Here are some video's of John Gray explaining his book "Collide."
http://fora.tv/2008/02/11/John_Gray_Why_Mars_and_Venus_Collide
Thanks.
I'll give it a look.
Appreciate this.
So...how do you go about setting them free when you thought you did, they chose to stay and yet, still are not working on the R.
Does your life revolve around him?
I hope it doesn't.
Can you continue living a great life even if he doesn't want to be in this kind of a relationship with you?
I hope you can.
Do these things, detach yourself from controlling the outcome of this situation, detach yourself from requiring him to be in a relationship with you. Where he lives is of little consequence and you can't control that, all you can control is living a great life for yourself.
I have been reading on here since April and I guess its time to finally say something.
My wife and I have been married for 10 years and seperated since March. I found out that she was having a EA that has now turned into a PA. I did the usual begging and everything else that drove her away even more.
Over the last week I have started letting go and I feel so much better. The only contact I have is dealing with our 3 kids. I always thought that it would kill me to let go but I am still alive...
I do love my wife but I now know that I will be fine without her. Since March I always made decisions with what she would think as my deciding factor. I now make them for me and my kids and my life is better because of it.
I still have moments when I want to break down but since I started to let go they dont happen as often. I finally realized that I dont want to be with someone who doesnt want me.
Thanks for all of the good advice on here.
Rich
I do love my wife but I now know that I will be fine without her. Since March I always made decisions with what she would think as my deciding factor. I now make them for me and my kids and my life is better because of it.
I still have moments when I want to break down but since I started to let go they dont happen as often. I finally realized that I dont want to be with someone who doesnt want me.
It is very difficult to get to this point but once you do you feel alive again.
Is anyone irritated by their WAS? Like you don't want to see them or talk to them? It is like the same way they used to act with you except now you are the one who is at this point? Do you feel like you just want to be anywhere except where they are?
It is hard for me not to give off this vibe. Is anyone else experiencing this?
I never thought I would be the one running in the opposite direction. I never thought that I would be the one wanting space. Wow.
Is anyone irritated by their WAS? Like you don't want to see them or talk to them? It is like the same way they used to act with you except now you are the one who is at this point? Do you feel like you just want to be anywhere except where they are?
THAT is the transition point where letting go transforms into a reversal of roles. The LBS becomes the WAS, and vice-versa.
I kind of feel that way a lot of times. She continues to act towards me like she did previously, except without any affection. She still wants to tell me about her problems at work, menopausal/stress issues, whatever. I am about at the point where I want to tell her to stop. She is not my friend. These things don't affect me any longer. I guess I just need to walk away when she starts.
It is very hard because we are still living together, so I have to see her every day in the morning and at night.
I'm not really running in the opposite direction, but I am annoyed that she thinks I still care.
Is anyone irritated by their WAS? Like you don't want to see them or talk to them? It is like the same way they used to act with you except now you are the one who is at this point? Do you feel like you just want to be anywhere except where they are?
It is hard for me not to give off this vibe. Is anyone else experiencing this?
I never thought I would be the one running in the opposite direction. I never thought that I would be the one wanting space. Wow.
That's exactly where I am right now. And you know what? It's soooooo liberating. I've been here for about a month or a bit more. There were a number of things she did that pushed me over that edge between wanting to let go to really letting go. I basically ignore her when we are in physical contact.
It's been a year and a half since she said she wanted a D, and about a year before that when the bomb dropped. We lived in the same house until January of this year and it made it virtually impossible to let go.
The physical separation is what really helped a lot. Plus her vindictive actions.
I don't care what she does. It's her life and I'm not interested in knowing anything about it. The only tie we have is concerning our children. Other than that she's pretty much invisible.
i'm kinda at this point as well.
i may talk like i care but if you put me in the same room as him, i wouldn't be very nice.
h talked about how much weight he's gained and i kinda rolled my eyes at him.
so yeah, i know it's hard not to give off that vibe that you're over him/her.
And....who the hell is Dobson??
H has been staying at vacation home up north, so it has been easier not having him around. H went there 6 months ago to figure things out!
I kind of feel that way a lot of times. She continues to act towards me like she did previously, except without any affection.She still wants to tell me about her problems at work, whatever. I am about at the point where I want to tell her to stop. She is not my friend. These things don't affect me any longer. I guess I just need to walk away when she starts.
I have done this for the last 6 months. Trying to detach and acting 'as if'. Talking to him on the phone like everything is 'great'!! I think when he would call, it was to get the W 'fix' same as OW 'fix'.
But, when we are together, it is so hard because it feels like a big fat lie!! WE get long and have an OK time, but there is no affection....I feel for everyone who has to do this while living with their spouse.
I told him last week I could not be his 'friend' while he thinks it's ok to talk to OW. I WILL NOT DO THIS ANY LONGER!!!!
I don't want to talk to him on the phone or if he comes home to work on something I told him I would go to other house.
He called twice today...first call I took....he had some lame excuse why he called....second call I let go to voice mail.
It was another lame excuse, ending with...."call and let know."
I called MIL (she was with him) told her the answer and said I DO NOT want to talk to him while he still thinks its OK to talk to OW!!
He can get his W 'fix' somewhere else!!!
I, too, am at a point now where I don't know if I really
want my H back.
Does that make me a WAW??
THAT is the transition point where letting go transforms into a reversal of roles. The LBS becomes the WAS, and vice-versa.
I have read this quote more than a few times now.
Once my wife told me she was not only done with the marriage but she has been unhappy for three years. Her best friend my sister in law way back when told me that the last conversation between her and my wife was not good at all. My wife was “done”
We did the normal things with the kids during the day and by night I was watching tv and sleeping downstairs.
Is anyone irritated by their WAS? Like you don't want to see them or talk to them?
I got to the point where I could not even look at her, Childish but I would literally turn my head and hide my eyes when she would walk by ( never in the presents of the children) I did this for 5 months while we hashed out the separation agreement. It was the closest thing to hell. She walked around so happy texting her friends “ I read one test that said for her to head to the nearest YMCA and pick up the boys”
Some of my resentful comments were off the cuff remarks and they were meant to pierce her heart I must say. Regrets yup apologized yup. I was literally on a downward spiral, she even said she was scared of me at times.
I don't care what she does. It's her life and I'm not interested in knowing anything about it. The only tie we have is concerning our children. Other than that she's pretty much invisible.
I admit I do care what she is doing who she is talking to etc...but I do feel I have dropped the rope.
Getting advise on hear I started to control my roller coaster feelings. I ragged inside but showed nothing on the outside. A day before she moved out she said how was it I was handling this so well. My reply, this is a choice you have made to break up the family and I “ have turned the corner”
She would ask to vacuum the downstairs and do my laundry and It felt so good to calmly say no “thank you”
We have been living apart for 4 months and yes the separation feels like a high pressure valve went off.
She has been late dropping the girls off and I have had to go the extra mile to pick the girls up but I do it with a smile on my face….never ever bitched not once. It feels so good.
Right now thank god for text messaging.
I pretty much walk around happy most of the time at this point. I don't let her get me down. I have good neighbors that I talk to and all of the blow-ups with the OM and his OW2 and my contact with the OMW are actually funny at this point.
I'm starting to feel sorry for her.
I told her she is pathetic. She said that I was pathetic if I thought our D had anything to do with OM, because it would have happened anyway. I told her that it happened because of HER OTHER PROBLEMS and then I walked away. She is out of her mind.
Today is our 14th wedding anniversary and W's 44th birthday. I let the kids buy her a few presents, but I didn't acknowledge anything this morning. A few women from work are taking me out tonight early and then we have a softball game. Probably go out after that for a while too.
I told them I wasn't going home until after W was in bed. They said I should get a hotel room and not go home at all!
I think I am going to have fun tonight!
They said I should get a hotel room and not go home at all!
I think I am going to have fun tonight!
Great idea.... Remember.. What is good for the goose is good for the gander..
This thread is about setting them free. What better way to set her free than to stay all night and party your butt off and let her wonder about YOU for once..
Then when she asks where you were, just tell her you had a little too much to drink, or you got tired and didn't want to drive home because of your condition and that you had a friend drop you off at a motel.. Then walk away from her...
After all.. She does want to be free from you right?
Then when she asks where you were, just tell her you had a little too much to drink, or you got tired and didn't want to drive home because of your condition and that you had a friend drop you off at a motel.. Then walk away from her...
As I know Dan's situation, BAD IDEA.
Dan,
1) NEVER, I repeat NEVER let on you may have drank too much while the divorce is ongoing (even if it is a farse)- CUSTODY ISSUE.
2) You don't have to explain jack diddly of where you've been, who you were with and what you've done. Not only is SHE the one committing the adultry, but where would that leave the mystery in things? The only time you have to let her know your whereabouts is where you are taking the kids. Period.
As I know Dan's situation, BAD IDEA.
NO, Actually it is a GREAT idea... Great.
Did you read the rest of the post?
The man is being divorced and there are CHILDREN involved.
so him telling his wife that he went out,
drank too much, acted responsibly by not drinking and driving back home and staying at a hotel is a bad thing,
I would hope everyone who drinks and recognizes that they're not capable of driving safely.
just my 0.02 cents but yes I can also see the other side of this issue as well, the question may be brought up about possible drinking habits, etc.
I can also see the other side of this issue as well, the question may be brought up about possible drinking habits, etc.
Exactly my point. My (x)W was as big a drinker if not more than me during the D, and she was doing other things. Yet, name of the game when it comes down to custody and the dollars involved to be received by the one who receives the majority of said custody will do ANYTHING to paint themselves the saint, ANYTHING. And Dan's W already knows she's in a financial bind and will be even more so.
I hate to see history repest itself, especially to others who are the position to stop it.
How do approach the setting them free when they believe that THEY are setting US free?
I'm not sure they truly believe they are setting US free. It is one of a number of ways they rationalize what they are doing...it's the old, it's not you, it's me line.
They are trying to set themselves free, but whatever it is that creates their shame for doing what they're doing, ie: guilt, they use the 'you deserve better' mentality. (If this is the line of thinking you are talking about by your post??)
You don't approach setting them free. You do it. It doesn't depend on what they are doing.
IMO the question you asked seems to come from a place where you would use setting them free as a tool to get a certain reaction from them. 'If I set them free, then they'll come back'. Under this pretense, it's not setting them free at all. Just another attempt at control and manipulation, which in my experience always has a way of backfiring on me.
Correct, Steady. This -- like filing for D -- cannot be a bluff. You have to truly be willing to set them free.
Puppy
Based on my experience you don't set them free. Faking it till you make it isn't it. Thinking you set them free isn't it. Vascilating from not caring to caring isn't it.
One day you just realize that you have set them free. In one R I was in many years ago she left me for another guy. I remember being in the shower and then it hit me - like a lightning strike. It just didn't matter any more. She was free - and more importantly I was too.
Recently in this sitch, I just realized out of the blue - she's free and so am I.
I look at it like Grace. It just happens.
I'm not saying you can't work you arse off to get there. I know it was a combination of working out my codependent dysfunction; removing unhealthy hooks; her vindictive and 'evil' decisions/actions/words; time; regaining my self respect; etc..
The time-line is unique to each individual and each situation. But once you get there you'll know it. I'm certain of that. If you're wondering if you're there yet, you aren't, so keep working.
I posted this on my thread alittle while go and thought it might ask some questions and provoke some thoughts here, too.
How do you 'set them" free and not be concerned about what they are doing to themselves and the family while continuing to put the effort into exposure; gathering intel and anything else that is directed at 'saving the marriage'? Seems very conflicted.
To want to save the marriage you must clearly have a desire to have W back. (Maybe not-is that the point?)
If you don't want W, then why save the marriage?
Or is it just releasing them from any attempt to "control; direct or save" them while continuing to remain committed to the idea that the M is still the best thing for "the family members"?
It's an odd theory to grasp.
Or is it how I feel right now? As in, clearly, what she is doing now with OM and to the family is irresponsible and this is NOT a person I want to be married to. Am I stuck on the idea that she is still the same person I married? (I still believe SHE is in there somewhere)She is obviously NOT that person.
Are my efforts toward the M (where hers are away from M) simply for my own benefit in that I need to have the opportunity WITH her (after months of no contact with OM) to prove through MC, etc, that the M is NOT rebuildable and we should actually D?
How do I frame these two seemingly incongruent intentions? Save a marriage that requires them and let them go at the same time?
Or have I been phrasing the second intention incorrectly? Is Letting Go not about releasing THEM but realizing that WE need to let OURSELVES go?
"I do not want to divorce but if your decision is that you don't love me and haven't since 2007, then I deserve better and I need to move on"
A statement like this is clearly not a tactic to keep them. It is me releasing ME from her not the other way around! Is that what we're aiming for?
Apologies if this is "Brain drool" but I need to think my way clear of this crossed-purpose conflict.
I posted this on my thread alittle while go and thought it might ask some questions and provoke some thoughts here, too.
How do you 'set them" free and not be concerned about what they are doing to themselves and the family while continuing to put the effort into exposure; gathering intel and anything else that is directed at 'saving the marriage'? Seems very conflicted.
It is. That's why I've told you you need to pick one approach or the other. All of this "analysis" time would be better spent on GALing and doing legal research, CD. You can analyze the various approaches 'til the cows come home, but it's best to just pick one and DO it.
I also think that where there's infidelity involved, it's best to try Allen's approach first.
The beauty of going "Allen A" before you go "Gucci/Robx" is that you can still play the "Setting them free" card if the first doesn't turn them around.
Puppy
Sorry Puppy,
what is Allens A approach again?
I'll clarify something I think may be confusing.
When I say my W is free I don't mean she is free to do anything she wants to. As far as her life is concerned, it is no concern of mine. But I do have boundaries.
I will act if her actions have a negative impact on my kids, on our ability to co-parent or a negative impact on a part of my life she has no business being in.
She can't bring any man into our house (right now we are rotating in and out of the house while the kids stay there as we fight over custody)
She can't treat me like a doormat or abuse me.
She can't endanger the health or well being of our kids.
etc...
Her personal life is hers and has nothing to do with me. I don't concern myself with it anymore.
I also agree with Puppy. At the stage where there is infidelity involved I would definitely take the bust it up approach. After a certain point though the affair has no impact on events.
My W and I are physically separated; I got served D papers; we are fighting over custody. I have signs she has someone. So what. It has no impact on custody or a D in my state. It's her life, she can do what she wants. I don't care whether she has someone else or not at this point - it's irrelevant only because I have detached from her. Hope that makes some more sense.
My W and I are physically separated; I got served D papers; we are fighting over custody. I have signs she has someone. So what. It has no impact on custody or a D in my state. It's her life, she can do what she wants. I don't care whether she has someone else or not at this point - it's irrelevant only because I have detached from her. Hope that makes some more sense.
i thought detachment was loving them from a distance/hands-off approach. knowing you cannot control them but it doesn't mean you stop loving them.
the example you gave above, is beyond detachment.
Sorry Puppy,
what is Allens A approach again?
Aggressively work to bust the affair with everything you've got: confrontation of the cheating spouse, exposure to key family and other influencers, gathering intel to confirm the truth of what's going on, strong legal stance, etc.
Allen A posts prolifically over on the Infidelity forum. Just a casual reading of a half a dozen or so of his posts will give you a feel for the approach, as he's very methodical and consistent.
Puppy
I'll clarify something I think may be confusing.
When I say my W is free I don't mean she is free to do anything she wants to. As far as her life is concerned, it is no concern of mine. But I do have boundaries.
I will act if her actions have a negative impact on my kids, on our ability to co-parent or a negative impact on a part of my life she has no business being in.
She can't bring any man into our house (right now we are rotating in and out of the house while the kids stay there as we fight over custody)
She can't treat me like a doormat or abuse me.
She can't endanger the health or well being of our kids.
etc...
Her personal life is hers and has nothing to do with me. I don't concern myself with it anymore.
Understood. That sounds like a very healthy way to look at it.
Puppy
My W and I are physically separated; I got served D papers; we are fighting over custody. I have signs she has someone. So what. It has no impact on custody or a D in my state. It's her life, she can do what she wants. I don't care whether she has someone else or not at this point - it's irrelevant only because I have detached from her. Hope that makes some more sense.
i thought detachment was loving them from a distance/hands-off approach. knowing you cannot control them but it doesn't mean you stop loving them.
the example you gave above, is beyond detachment.
Where in there did I say I don't still love her? I wish her well. She's the mother of my children. She was my spouse for 9 years. I have no control over what she does, nor would I want any. Control is an illusion.
I'm not sure what a hands-off approach is. I can't see how a hands on approach would be healthy - I'm defining hands on as somehow trying to get them to be/do the way you think they should be/do.
I'm not sure what lies beyond detachment. I guess it would be an aggressive approach to make someone's life miserable?
I face the facts. She doesn't want to be with me. She wants a D. She may have someone else.
What's there for me to ponder and think about? Seems her position is crystal clear.
Sting said it as well:
"If You Love Somebody Set Them Free"
If you need somebody, call my name
If you want someone, you can do the same
If you want to keep something precious
You got to lock it up and throw away the key
If you want to hold onto your possession
Don't even think about me
If you love somebody, set them free
If it's a mirror you want, just look into my eyes
Or a whipping boy, someone to despise
Or a prisoner in the dark
Tied up in chains you just can't see
Or a beast in a gilded cage
That's all some people ever want to be
If you love somebody, set them free
You can't control an independent heart
Can't tear the one you love apart
Forever conditioned to believe that we can't live
We can't live here and be happy with less
So many riches, so many souls
Everything we see we want to possess
If you need somebody, call my name
If you want someone, you can do the same
If you want to keep something precious
You got to lock it up and throw away the key
If you want to hold onto your possession
Don't even think about me
If you love somebody, set them free.
Buenos Dias Amigos
Coach
yeah. And he also wrote that other one - Every Breath You Take. I consider that one a stalker's song...lol.
Very good read with lots of informative information.
Wondering how do you set them free with 3 kids one being a newborn. I was an emotional wreck 7 months of my pregnancy. He wasn't there and I was a basket case. I never saw this side of him. He wants to be free. I don't contact him at all. Baby will be two weeks tomorrow and I've had no help. When he does text I respond with one word.
^^ very good question. From what I understand, you are meant to see them free because why would you want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you? And because if you truly love someone you set them free so they can be happy.
But I think this theory is hard to apply when the responsibilities of parenting need to take priority over any one person's individual quest for "happiness".
Having said that, you cannot force someone to be a good parent, nor be a parent full stop, which is advice already given here....
That's why situations involving kids are just twice as difficult..and newborns, well don't get me started!
Yep. The "tone" of the words is not what everyone thinks.
yeah. And he also wrote that other one - Every Breath You Take. I consider that one a stalker's song...lol.
It is! It's
the stalker song!
Very good read with lots of informative information.
Wondering how do you set them free with 3 kids one being a newborn. I was an emotional wreck 7 months of my pregnancy. He wasn't there and I was a basket case. I never saw this side of him. He wants to be free. I don't contact him at all. Baby will be two weeks tomorrow and I've had no help. When he does text I respond with one word.
Blessed I wouldn't even know how to respond to your question. I couldn't even imagine how a man would walk away from his pregnant wife and 3 kids. My W is walking away and we have a 4 and 7 year old...all about how SHE 'feels'.
I am speechless in regards to your situation. I couldn't even imagine.
Steady, you can imagine it,
in one situation, the WAS is a man, the other situation the WAS is a woman, both following their feelings.
Let them go, that's all you can do.
...both following their feelings.
It is all about them isn't it? When I was talking to my WAW everything was how she felt, what about the way you are making me and the kids feel, guess that wasn't nearly as important.
After another late night of reading, it seemed to just settle over me this morning while I was driving. I kept telling myself I should let her go and today I "felt" I am ready to. Do I still love her, yes, more than anything, do I want her back, I can't really say right now. I don't know how I could forgive someone willingly hurting the person they are supposed to love the way she has been and not care about how it impacts the family.
...both following their feelings.
It is all about them isn't it? When I was talking to my WAW everything was how she felt, what about the way you are making me and the kids feel, guess that wasn't nearly as important.
After another late night of reading, it seemed to just settle over me this morning while I was driving. I kept telling myself I should let her go and today I "felt" I am ready to. Do I still love her, yes, more than anything, do I want her back, I can't really say right now. I don't know how I could forgive someone willingly hurting the person they are supposed to love the way she has been and not care about how it impacts the family.
Yes you're right, with regards to your WAW, everything is about how she feels, she is a feeling person, she is in love with those feelings, she's guided by those feelings, you're against her and her feelings so she's against you.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong,
I'm saying that's just how it is.
Arguing with your WAW and telling her "what about me? what about the kids?" just comes off as weak and needy and boy that always works to bring back a wayward spouse ;-)
Let her go, she wants out of the relationship so badly,
agree with her, show her the door, don't be a prick or an a$$hole but you've had your "awakening" too, you feel differently now as well, you're not sure how you feel about her and maybe this is the best thing for you too, you can now find someone who values you and the relationship they can have with you,
it's her loss, not yours.
Got to stamp your post to my forehead, robx!
I wish I hadn't done so much arguing and pleading (during my pregancy and post birth of our baby..7 months of pathetic neediness). Is there any way to 'undo' all that??
yeah,
kick his butt to the curb,
and live a great life for you and your kids,
find someone better to replace him and then when he comes crawling back to you, tell him "I'm not sure how I feel about you anymore, maybe you can wait around for me 6-12 months while I make up my mind about you & me and compare you to other people and if I remember, I'll let you know"
;-)
yes that would be mean but I think it would "undo" all of that begging & pleading but that's just my 0.02 cents on this,
I'd love gooch himself to chime in on his own thread and respond to you, he's the king around here.
p.s. I'm not going to get overly personal & emotional on this topic, I'm just going to say I'm not a fan of any man who can get his wife pregnant and then leave her right after the kid is born, I have no respect for any guy who can do that and I have a list of colorful words to describe a guy who does that to his wife. Just my 0.02 cents on this subject.
I'd love to see that list of yours! ;-)
And I'll archive that reply, in case I ever get the chance to use it!
Would be very eager to hear from Gucci as well...I've been toying with the idea of sending a final email ('letting him go/I'm moving on with my great life') before he gets on a plane in a few weeks to live on the other side of the world with OW.
...both following their feelings.
It is all about them isn't it? When I was talking to my WAW everything was how she felt, what about the way you are making me and the kids feel, guess that wasn't nearly as important.
After another late night of reading, it seemed to just settle over me this morning while I was driving. I kept telling myself I should let her go and today I "felt" I am ready to. Do I still love her, yes, more than anything, do I want her back, I can't really say right now. I don't know how I could forgive someone willingly hurting the person they are supposed to love the way she has been and not care about how it impacts the family.
No one deserves to be abandoned. Nothing you did warranted this kind of treatment from the woman who promised to love you.
The issue lies within your wife. It is a flaw in her that has caused her to walk out on you. You do deserve better treatment.
It is better to be alone and happy than to be with someone who would choose to leave."
Susan J. Anderson
The Journey From Abandonment To Healing
Steady, you can imagine it,
in one situation, the WAS is a man, the other situation the WAS is a woman, both following their feelings.
Let them go, that's all you can do.
You're right robx, I can imagine it. I meant it more in a vein of me not fathoming how someone can just walk away from a W with a newborn baby. That's beyond me.
There are responsibilities in life that trump how we
feel. There were times I didn't feel like waking up with my kids, there were times I didn't feel like changing a diaper, etc... It's called being responsible.
I'm also with you on the total disrespect and disdain I have for a person who can do what he's doing.
And yes, the best thing is to let go of them. There is no convincing to be had. Why would we want to be with someone we have to convince to be with us. I posted recently of an experience I had of exactly that. If you manage to pull it off, you sit there thinking 'This is no good. WTF am I doing here?"
Got to stamp your post to my forehead, robx!
I wish I hadn't done so much arguing and pleading (during my pregancy and post birth of our baby..7 months of pathetic neediness). Is there any way to 'undo' all that??
robx has it right on his advice to you.
If you toss him aside you will gain his respect. Respect is built when a person takes a stand for themselves regardless of what's going on. When you stand up and claim your right to be happy, claim your right to be with someone who will love and respect you, claim your right not to be a doormat or treated with such disrespect, then you gain people's respect.
But the most important outcome of doing this is - YOU GAIN BACK RESPECT FOR YOURSELF. And that trumps everything else.
Piano -
"It's obvious you are a person who would walk away from his responsibilities. You father children with me and then just walk away based on how you feel rather than doing what's right based on the responsibilities you have created.
You are not the kind of man I want to be with and you are not the kind of person I want in my life. You have a right to do whatever you want to do, but I have a right to chose what is healthy for me. I have no respect for a person who can do what you're doing and acting so selfishly.
I deserve better than that and so do my children. I do not want them modeling such irresponsible behavior."
Piano -
"It's obvious you are a person who would walk away from his responsibilities. You father children with me and then just walk away based on how you feel rather than doing what's right based on the responsibilities you have created.
You are not the kind of man I want to be with and you are not the kind of person I want in my life. You have a right to do whatever you want to do, but I have a right to chose what is healthy for me. I have no respect for a person who can do what you're doing and acting so selfishly.
I deserve better than that and so do my children. I do not want them modeling such irresponsible behavior."
Steady and Gardener-
This is EXACTLY what i needed to read this morning.
Thank you so much.
Steady, you can imagine it,
in one situation, the WAS is a man, the other situation the WAS is a woman, both following their feelings.
Let them go, that's all you can do.
You're right robx, I can imagine it. I meant it more in a vein of me not fathoming how someone can just walk away from a W with a newborn baby. That's beyond me.
There are responsibilities in life that trump how we
feel. There were times I didn't feel like waking up with my kids, there were times I didn't feel like changing a diaper, etc... It's called being responsible.
I'm also with you on the total disrespect and disdain I have for a person who can do what he's doing.
And yes, the best thing is to let go of them. There is no convincing to be had. Why would we want to be with someone we have to convince to be with us. I posted recently of an experience I had of exactly that. If you manage to pull it off, you sit there thinking 'This is no good. WTF am I doing here?"
remember we're applying logic to a situation,
logic that says a person should have the discipline to do what's right and take care of their responsibilities. But these WAS's are in love with their feelings, so they throw all that logic, responsibility and discipline to the wind and just follow those feelings wherever they may lead:
incredible reward or ultimate letdown.
As for piano's sitch, her hubby leaving just after they have a baby a few months ago, my "logic" on that situation is simple, the ultimate victim in that situation is the children. Children never have a say, they don't choose their parents, they don't choose their family life, their living environment, they don't choose to be born at all. People need to be damn sure before they have kids that they're committed to the process before they insert "point A" into "slot B", I'd go so far as to make it a criminal offense to abandon a mom and a newborn. Heck I'm not even talking marriage anymore, I think people should probably get licenses to procreate, it's too easy for people to have sex, have kids and then make a mess of those kids and wipe their hands & walk away when the going gets tough and to me, that's just bull$hit, again that's how I feel on this topic, that's my logic on this issue.
I'm right with you robx.
I've never heard it said before I saw you say it - "The WAS are in love with their feelings."
I also think the ultimate losers in divorce are the children. I told my W this months and months ago. Of course her position was, as I'm sure all pro-divorce people are, kids are resilient. It's amazing.
My kids may be resilient. But I see an even bigger picture. Today I watched my son play t-ball. As I was watching I thought about how my W should be taking my D for some girl time and I should be taking my S to the park to practice hitting, fielding grounders, throwing, learning the rules of the game.
But I can't do that. Our kids have only one parent at a time. My D would be bored to death sitting there watching me teach my S. She's too young to participate. I know there are ways around it and there are solutions - I could have my SIL watch my D. My point is it shouldn't have to be a big deal to do this stuff. The kids lose out.
When they're older and in school and they both have homework or projects they both need help with - now there's one parent trying to help them both, while cooking a dinner, while cleaning out their lunchboxes and getting lunch ready for the next day, while doing all of the household chores that need to get done.
They're resilient? What about everything else they're going to get short-changed on? I can make a huge list of where they lose.
And my W once said, "I'll put them through whatever they have to go through so they don't see their mother crying every day." That told me everything right there.
Let her go. Let them go. If they're lucky they'll crash and burn. If not, they'll just build a pile of crap they'll run from again - wash, rinse, repeat.
Thanks Steady for the email wording.
My WH may not understand my logic right now (being so driven by his feelings), but in years to come he might & it's for that I wanted a final email.
I know that me being 'right' will not bring him back or take him out of his Feeling Fog.
Oh, and it's not that important, but to clarify, my WH dropped the bomb and separated when I was 4 months pregnant and has been making moves since them to live o/seas with OW. He goes in a matter of weeks.
Piano,
I always try to look at it like this - I have absolutely no idea what the future holds. I may find someone who is so well suited for me that I'll look back on wonder why ever held onto my W at all. A piece of space debris could fall from the sky, hit my W on the head and turn her thinking around 180 degrees. We may part ways and never come back together. Or we may. I have no idea.
The funny thing is this - we humans have a tendency to accept a negative future more than a positive one. I'm not sure why that is but I see it in me and so many other people. I guess it's a matter of projecting forward based on the space we are in now.
I remember meeting people and going through really great things (like finally getting my current job) where I felt so good all I could see was good ahead of me. When things looked bad, I looked forward and saw bad...lol.
I've used this story many times and I just wish I could get it to stick with me:
We'll See...
There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit.
"Such bad luck," they said sympathetically.
"We'll see," the farmer replied.
The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses.
"How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed.
"We'll see," replied the old man.
The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune.
"We'll see," answered the farmer.
The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out.
"We'll see" said the farmer.
We need to be the farmer, because that's exactly how life goes. 'Good' turns 'bad', then back to 'good', then back to 'bad', then back to 'good'..... (good and bad are just relative perspectives based on what we perceive the meaning of current events will have on our future) <--- Did I just say that??? lol
Thanks Steady for the email wording.
My WH may not understand my logic right now (being so driven by his feelings), but in years to come he might & it's for that I wanted a final email.
I know that me being 'right' will not bring him back or take him out of his Feeling Fog.
Oh, and it's not that important, but to clarify, my WH dropped the bomb and separated when I was 4 months pregnant and has been making moves since them to live o/seas with OW. He goes in a matter of weeks.
I would pass any final emails past some of the veterans here. I think you also need to be clear as to why you want to send it. I can see healthy and unhealthy reasons and you want to get the most benefit for yourself from it if you do send one.
I have no idea what will take them out of a fog. I think of it like grace...sort of an alcoholic who has an epiphany and realizes the drinking is ruining their whole life. They don't wake up one day and start pondering on it - it usually comes in like a lightning bolt that shakes the crap out of them.
It can be triggered by everyday mundane things. Washing dishes, staring out a window, a smell, a song, music, a memory, just out of the blue, something someone says. Look at all of us here - it was a bomb that woke us from a slumber.
I don't remember the persons name on this board. But he was in front of the judge 2 or 3 times for the final divorce hearing. I'm not sure what happened, but at the last one his wife did a reversal. He had written her a letter and gave it to her at some point in time. If I can remember who it was I'll point you in that direction. But that's how things can turn on a dime.
(good and bad are just relative perspectives based on what we perceive the meaning of current events will have on our future.
I like this A LOT!
[/QUOTE]
I wish I had been able to apply such a philosophy sooner in my situation, but the reason I didn't, and couldn't, is one that is ignored by this philosophy. My kids. My young kids who were being put through h*ll by their mother's reckless actions. I couldn't just say "Fine. You want him, you can have him", because I would effectively be saying "Fine. I freely give up half my kids' lives, and have no problem with you bringing a predator step-father into their lives." I was also grieving horribly for the loss of the family the kids were enduring. When kids are involved, especially young kids, it's not a simple act of letting the wayward spouse go, because they take some of the kids' lives with them. No court in my state would have ever awarded me with full custody.
Now that I've made it through my sitch, and am in a pretty good place, I've thought a lot about this. If we didn't have kids, how would I have acted differently? I am convinced that had we not had kids, I would have been able to let go and move on, much easier, and much sooner. I would have been able to employ complete no contact almost immediately and started healing. I would have been able to freely think about a new life, totally unencumbered by my past failed M. Thoughts of all the women out there who would "treat me right" wouldn't have been burdened with the added "need to be a great step-mom" too.
When kids are involved, "setting them free", is much more complicated, IMO.
[/quote]
This is the exact problem I am facing. I may not be 100% committed to letting my wife go, but I am trying. With two young kids though, even if she not having an affiar at the moment, it will only be a matter of time before she finds someone again. The thought of another man spending as much time with my kids as I will be allowed kills me.
So when I am in dettach mode, it rips my heart out because it feels like I am gambling my futute with my children. How is a man supposed to do that and begin to feel better about himself. I am very early in my problems, they have just been brought to my attention, but this last week has been terrible, and I do not know how I will be able to to do this for any length of time....
This is the exact problem I am facing. I may not be 100% committed to letting my wife go, but I am trying. With two young kids though, even if she not having an affiar at the moment, it will only be a matter of time before she finds someone again. The thought of another man spending as much time with my kids as I will be allowed kills me.
So when I am in dettach mode, it rips my heart out because it feels like I am gambling my futute with my children. How is a man supposed to do that and begin to feel better about himself. I am very early in my problems, they have just been brought to my attention, but this last week has been terrible, and I do not know how I will be able to to do this for any length of time....
As for some OM spending time with your kids you need to talk to your W and inform her it would not be wise to bring OM in and out of the kids lives.
I agree with you that when kids are invovled it takes much more time to detach. But I will tell you as time goes on you will be able to as long as you:
1. take care of yourself
2. be the best dad towards your kids when you have them
3. focus on the future (Postive)
I am going on my 1 year anniversary here and I can tell you I've come a long way since the start.
I am currently using plan 2b, seeing OW. This is a very powerful thing with a spouse sees you with someone else. I heard it really gets their attention.
keep moving forward
I wish I had been able to apply such a philosophy sooner in my situation, but the reason I didn't, and couldn't, is one that is ignored by this philosophy. My kids. My young kids who were being put through h*ll by their mother's reckless actions. I couldn't just say "Fine. You want him, you can have him", because I would effectively be saying "Fine. I freely give up half my kids' lives, and have no problem with you bringing a predator step-father into their lives." I was also grieving horribly for the loss of the family the kids were enduring. When kids are involved, especially young kids, it's not a simple act of letting the wayward spouse go, because they take some of the kids' lives with them. No court in my state would have ever awarded me with full custody.
Nobody here has ever advocated that thinking. Your WAS is already splitting time with the kids and introducing the OP to them. That's why you have a L, Gucci calls it "having your ducks in a row." Seperation/Divorce agreements have some very specific language about time your children can spend with other adults. Break a judges order and see how that works for you.
A WAS and their L know how to prey on your "feelings." A good DBer will check their emotions/feelings at the door (detach), use their brain and combat their WAS feelings with feelings. You can't apply your logic to someone else's feelings and expect it to influence them. You change how they feel about you.
My young kids who were being put through h*ll by their mother's reckless actions.
How much control does any of of us have over another person? You can take lots of productive action for yourself and your family. Protect your finances and emotional well-being. Know your legal rights. Use your spiritual side. Be loving to yourself, kids, family and your WAS. Be a person of high character, values and morals. Set personal, legal, moral boundaries and enforce them. Become the best person you can in a tough enviroment - thrive.
I think fear is the biggest enemy of any DBer. The solution is to "love yourself." All the DB techniques and good advice here boils down to that concept. It's very attractive as well. How confident do you look when you accept that you are already dead (divorced)? It's not that you don't want to survive but that you accept that you don't control the outcome but will do whatever the situation calls for without hesitation. You have to be prepared - understand how the game is played and know what works given the situation. Do you want to go up against a prepared, disciplined, able, strong, and determined opponent? Who would you follow? Lead your family.
Strength and Honor
I wish I had been able to apply such a philosophy sooner in my situation, but the reason I didn't, and couldn't, is one that is ignored by this philosophy. My kids. My young kids who were being put through h*ll by their mother's reckless actions. I couldn't just say "Fine. You want him, you can have him", because I would effectively be saying "Fine. I freely give up half my kids' lives, and have no problem with you bringing a predator step-father into their lives." I was also grieving horribly for the loss of the family the kids were enduring. When kids are involved, especially young kids, it's not a simple act of letting the wayward spouse go, because they take some of the kids' lives with them. No court in my state would have ever awarded me with full custody.
Nobody here has ever advocated that thinking. Your WAS is already splitting time with the kids and introducing the OP to them. That's why you have a L, Gucci calls it "having your ducks in a row." Seperation/Divorce agreements have some very specific language about time your children can spend with other adults. Break a judges order and see how that works for you.
A WAS and their L know how to prey on your "feelings." A good DBer will check their emotions/feelings at the door (detach), use their brain and combat their WAS feelings with feelings. You can't apply your logic to someone else's feelings and expect it to influence them. You change how they feel about you.
My young kids who were being put through h*ll by their mother's reckless actions.
How much control does any of of us have over another person? You can take lots of productive action for yourself and your family. Protect your finances and emotional well-being. Know your legal rights. Use your spiritual side. Be loving to yourself, kids, family and your WAS. Be a person of high character, values and morals. Set personal, legal, moral boundaries and enforce them. Become the best person you can in a tough enviroment - thrive.
I think fear is the biggest enemy of any DBer. The solution is to "love yourself." All the DB techniques and good advice here boils down to that concept. It's very attractive as well. How confident do you look when you accept that you are already dead (divorced)? It's not that you don't want to survive but that you accept that you don't control the outcome but will do whatever the situation calls for without hesitation. Do you want to face that person? Who would you follow? Lead your family.
Strength and Honor
R2C, looks like you need to STICKY THAT SUCKA!!!
Puppy
.... That's why you have a L, Gucci calls it "having your ducks in a row." Seperation/Divorce agreements have some very specific language about time your children can spend with other adults. Break a judges order and see how that works for you.
A WAS and their L know how to prey on your "feelings." A good DBer will check their emotions/feelings at the door (detach), use their brain and combat their WAS feelings with feelings(Coach is that a typo?). You can't apply your logic to someone else's feelings and expect it to influence them. You change how they feel about you.(Same thing here coach?)
Let me tell you the mistake I
almost made. When my W first said she didn't want to try and she wanted a D I nearly folded. I almost just agreed to what she wanted due to my ignorance of how I thought custody, child support, etc... worked. I saw a lawyer. Everything changed.
He would tell me, "Think with your head and not your heart." That was a foreign concept to me in this sitch but I eventually wrapped my head around it. That made all the difference. I separated the legal stuff from everything else. I decided to play hard ball legally, but not let that spill over to the rest of my life.
I was told by some people here, leave your W out of the decision making process. Don't make legal decisions based on anything to do with how it will affect her. She is the opponent and we obviously have opposite and competing interests. You are in the same boat.
Get a good lawyer and fight.
How much control does any of of us have over another person? You can take lots of productive action for yourself and your family. Protect your finances and emotional well-being. Know your legal rights. Use your spiritual side. Be loving to yourself, kids, family and your WAS. Be a person of high character, values and morals. Set personal, legal, moral boundaries and enforce them. Become the best person you can in a tough enviroment - thrive.
I think fear is the biggest enemy of any DBer. The solution is to "love yourself." All the DB techniques and good advice here boils down to that concept. It's very attractive as well. How confident do you look when you accept that you are already dead (divorced)? It's not that you don't want to survive but that you accept that you don't control the outcome but will do whatever the situation calls for without hesitation. You have to be prepared - understand how the game is played and know what works given the situation. Do you want to go up against a prepared, disciplined, able, strong, and determined opponent? Who would you follow? Lead your family.
Strength and Honor
This is why I love Coach so much. He always hits the mark. :-)
I think we should have a stickied thread for newbies that just says "Search and read all of Coach's posts"
One month ago, my husband suddenly blind-sided me by saying that he was done. We had been "out of sync" for 2 days, but not actually fighting. I learned a week later that he had been communicating with another woman for about 10 days but not having an affair. I set him free; made it easy for him to go even while struggling to pay the bills alone. However, it is no easier to detach from him. I love him and expected to grow old with him. How do and when do the feelings go away? And when I read posts like this one, it just makes me want to wait for him to come back. Help! The pain is so difficult.
How do and when do the feelings go away?
It takes some longer than others, but the key is shifting the focus to you and your own life, and controling the things you can control.
We usually tell people regular excercise, rest, and good nutrition are the best course. Alcohol, while tempting, is usually not a good idea.
Find things you like to do, GAL (Get a Life).
Judy,
Start a thread with your situation so that you can both journal which will help you think through all the problems you face, as well as give people a place to offer advice and solace. You're not alone. Sadly, not alone at all.
Pain is something we all share, so you're among some of the most sympathetic people. You may hear advice that is hard to take. Your heart will mislead you many times.
Have you read DR? I'd recommend it, as it'll explain a lot of the strategies people discuss here.
Good luck, and God be with you.
One month ago, my husband suddenly blind-sided me by saying that he was done. We had been "out of sync" for 2 days, but not actually fighting. I learned a week later that he had been communicating with another woman for about 10 days but not having an affair. I set him free; made it easy for him to go even while struggling to pay the bills alone. However, it is no easier to detach from him. I love him and expected to grow old with him. How do and when do the feelings go away? And when I read posts like this one, it just makes me want to wait for him to come back. Help! The pain is so difficult.
The emotional stuff starts fast. In my sitch, just have some women talking to me, and it pulled me from giving up on myself to standing up for myself. I see how If I continue on, and with inappropriate behavior it could lead to me disrespecting "the wife". ( current wife is on the way out as she is happy and comfortable disrespecting and tormenting me for her personal satisfaction ).
Nothing can make you feel horrible like the opposite sex, and nothing can make you feel better just as quickly.
Spent the afternoon looking at apts. in the area (just in case) and thoroughly enjoyed being shown around by a very flirtatious young woman. Now I could have easily been her father, but it felt great to know that there's still a little gas in the tank...
pinhead,
And a nice honey who loves you will put soo much gas back in the tank, that it will feel like drugs. You will be like "thats what I was missing", and "my OWN WIFE refused to spend small amounts of time on me?".
In the end she wanted to dominate you and make it all about her.
I will appreciate the love from a "GOOD WOMAN" much more after this experience.
DLS,
That's what gets me out of bed sometimes, realizing how good even an average relationship will be in comparison to what I've put up with for 11 years.
Funny this topic came up. I actually got several looks today and an actual "whistle" from a car of girls. WTF? AND I was carrying my D!!
AND still wearing my ring!
Happens every time, CD my bruthaman. Every time. It's the sudden "HeWhoCaresTheLeast" CONFIDENCE you're exuding that does it.
Puppy
Really? I wasn't expecting it at all. I found myself at the waterslide with D noticing that many of the attractive women with kids had no rings.
Might be a fun long weekend. I don't want or need anyone right now but the "interest" will help my confidence going forward.
Interesting you mentioned that "Cares the Least" quote. I have that one in my collection of excerpts.
I also met a friend of my sister last night (I helped her husband get her a new Mustang for her 40th b'day) who is now in D process. I told her I would point her in this direction.
Has a cake-eater/feet dragger. She believes MLC but I adhere to the theory there is no such thing. It's all WAS/Infidelity. I think MLC is a 'nice' expression for not confirming the EA/PA.
I think MLC is a 'nice' expression for not confirming the
That would explain so many apparent mid life crisis running the gammut from 20 somethings through to 60 somethings.
Who cares about these arbitrary labels? OK, so let's say you wake up one day between 40-50 and think "crap, I want to have more fun in life, so I am dumping my wife and kids, and I am going trolling at singles bars--whoopie!".
Does it really matter at what age these thoughts pop into your head?
How do I start a thread? And someone else asked me to read DR. Can you tell me what that is? Thank you for your comments. I am trying to heal but I'm resisting the end of my marriage. In my confused state, I equate healing with giving up and accepting the end.
Select and enter a forum by clicking on it. Then click on the "New Topic" button.
Suggest Newcomers for now unless you have serious infidelity issues, then perhaps infidelity forum.
DR is Divorce Remedy, by Michelle Weiner-Davis. Buy a copy if you can afford it, but don't let your spouse see it. It's your playbook, just for you.
Pinhead, are you sure about the iPhone thing? Don't they have an app for that?
In my personal situation, I am soooo past the "playbook" stage
I am in the 'gonna do whatever I do whenever I want to do it' stage.
DLS,
That's what gets me out of bed sometimes, realizing how good even an average relationship will be in comparison to what I've put up with for 11 years.
You are right about that.
Judy,
If you can't afford the book go to your library. Sometimes they have it there. If they don't you can sometimes ask them to get a copy. They just might.
I heard this at the end of a movie named Separation City last night. I thought it was fitting for here:
Love is a moving sea.
There are times when the tide goes out, leaving you stranded.
Then you have to be strong and patient,
And wait for the moon and the stars to work their magic again.
Brought a tear to my eye.
I can relate to everything here. And after many months of doing this stuff, GL's advice is tempting. In my sitch, I'm pretty sure it will not change H's mind or make him re-think anything if I let him go. He has said (and I always kind of knew) that my attitude (DB) over the past few months told him that I didn't seem to care about him or our M very much b/c I seemed "fine" with it all, went GALing, etc. I've reminded him a few times when it's been appropriate (i.e., not pursuing or starting a conversation, but when he questioned what I really wanted) that I do not want a D, but he interprets my actions otherwise and seems further convinced that I don't want him, never wanted him, and my actions now demonstrate that. Esp since he's been inactive for 5 months after saying we had to D ASAP and I'm sick of the limbo and need to move in some direction, so now I'm the one taking action.
I put down a deposit on an apartment. I was not planning to do it right now, but I did. I have been looking since May, but am very reluctant to take this final step. For reasons too complicated to go into here, even though I didn't want a D, I am the one who has to move out - but that feels like I'm the one giving up on the M if I go. But I see no signs he's willing to accept responsibility for his part, forgive me anytime soon (b/c I'm blamed for everything), or be nicer to me, willing to work on things, etc. So I'm reluctantly having to move forward as I don't want to be in limbo forever.
I am questioning whether I should stay for 3-4 more months, since I can (hard stop after that at which I have to move). I'm scared of how we tell our young daughter, of making the final step in moving out when it wasn't what I wanted... OTOH, had a convo w/H yesterday and was reminded AGAIN that I will, sadly, always be blamed for everything, I "did this" to him, etc. I just sat there and took it b/c there's no point in arguing. And it was exhausting.
I really think we need to get custody and other stuff lined up before I move. I want to consult someone about co-parenting, etc. but H says he does not want to see anyone to help us do a co-parenting agreement and thinks we can "figure it all out" on our own- schedules, how to tell D, etc, which worries me. I want professional advice on this and don't trust him to not say something totally wrong or inappropriate to her.
I don't know how far in advance to prepare her either. She's preschool age and doesn't have a good concept of time. I don't know what to say or anything. I can go see someone myself, but H may not take that advice if he doesn't hear it directly. I've got some books about it, but he never reads anything. I'm willing to put in the work and do it all just to get things right for her, though. That's more important to me than who does what.
Anyone with little kids out there want to share how they told them, or if you got professional advice, what they said you should do??
It seems like several of you are also in my boat: "I need to move on, but this wasn't what I wanted and now *I'm* the one leaving b/c I can't stand the limbo anymore". It sucks to have to take this step and move out, but I don't know what else to do.
Hey sorry to her this . The hardest thing to do in both my W and my life was to tell our S that we were getting a D he is 10. The one thing for us was to be upfront and honest with him and try to make his life as normal as possible.
Our MC/IC/FT has helped out as well as our S enjoys going to see her. As far as leaving I didn't want to either but I make less than my W and didn't want them to move from our house lucky for me I'm 10 min down the road. Gotta get back to work.
As much as the past week has been tough and hope seems to be getting less and less. I don't want to give up.
I would hate to see this thread flounder...
Erich Fromm suggested that essentially we are all born free and throughout the course of our lifetime impose restrictions on our own freedom to provide ourselves with a sense of security and belonging in order to avoid loneliness and anxiety. In his thesis there is statement of particular importance to this thread:
There is only one meaning of life: The Act of Living It.
Read into as you may. He also theorized that in order to be able to truly love another person, one needs first care about yourself, take responsibility for yourself, respect yourself, and Know Yourself.
As always, I hope this helps to refocus your thinking. Now, "unroll that twenty and buy me some beer."
Steve, this is a way of life that I have been coming to embrace. The rest will follow.
"Whoever has learned to be anxious in the right way has learned the ultimate."—Søren Kierkegaard, The Concept of Anxiety
For Kierkegaard, in Begrebet Angest (The Concept of Anxiety), anxiety is the fear we experience in the face of freedom. Kierkegaard uses the example of a man standing on the edge of a cliff. When the man looks over the edge, he experiences a focused fear of falling, but at the same time, the man feels a terrifying impulse to take a "leap of fate" and throw himself from the ledge. That experience is the anxiety we experience in recognizing our own freedom and the possibility of choosing our own destiny.
Anxiety informs us of our choices, our self-awareness and personal responsibility, and brings us from a state of un-self-conscious immediacy to self-conscious reflection. Kierkegaard coined this our "dizziness of freedom."
yeah,
kick his butt to the curb,
and live a great life for you and your kids,
find someone better to replace him and then when he comes crawling back to you, tell him "I'm not sure how I feel about you anymore, maybe you can wait around for me 6-12 months while I make up my mind about you & me and compare you to other people and if I remember, I'll let you know"
;-)
yes that would be mean but I think it would "undo" all of that begging & pleading but that's just my 0.02 cents on this,
I'd love gooch himself to chime in on his own thread and respond to you, he's the king around here.
^ Bump
Gucci?
We spoke to our pediatrician. She said not to say anything until right before the W moves out. And not to fight in front of them, or to blame each other. I don't quite agree with all of it (as i've said in other threads), but these are the typical guidelines.
Here's a good book on the topic:
http://www.amazon.com/Helping-Your-Kids-...0949&sr=1-1
Another word or two about the so-called MLC:
I think that it is a dangerous assumption that keeps LBS from moving on. The whole idea that a spouse is "in a fog," "not themselves right now," or otherwise "insane," just because they don't want to be with us anymore.
Were they insane to be with us and not their previous partners? I don't think so.
It is a very rare thing for couples to stay together, "happily," after the initial rush wears off. Most humans don't really want the depth and comfort of longevity. It's boring to them. They want the excitement back.
I believe that most relationships simply run their course and that is all there is to it.
Please don't take offense but I found that line of reasoning offensive; short sighted and presumtuous.
I still believe that R's are what you can make of them. And your ability to make something of any R (i.e KEEP the excitement) depends solely on YOUR ability to know what excites YOU and THEM and work on that.
To take the defeatest; helpless; and almost victimish stance that "R's run their course and that's that" is giving up before you played the game.
Why get into the R in the first place? For the thrill of the start and the pain of the end? not for me, thanks.
And that the other person left the last relationship to be with us doesn't prove this position. All it says is that we know that they (like our leaving our last R's)either discovered:
-there was a true incompatibility
-WE failed to create and maintain boundaries to get what WE needed from the R
-THEY failed to do the above as well OR couldn't accept the others' boundaries
-We and/or THEY had inner issues that developed into an insurmountable R obstacle.
-Any combination of the above.
"The fog" which is spoken of is the failure to recognize/acknowledge any of the above and/or be under the influence of the "Love Drug (PEA)" which prevents ANY analysis of the above. I would also consider that the attitude of "R's run theit course and that's that" IS a attributeable and a symptom of the same "fog"
2x4?
4x4?
Yes.
My opinion.
I have a similar opinion about the "term" MLC.
Oh, no offense taken.
I never said that I felt like a victim, or that I never "tried."
I just don't believe that the initial rush of infatuation can be sustained. In fact, I know that it is impossible.
So, sue me.
I just don't believe that the initial rush of infatuation can be sustained. In fact, I know that it is impossible.
Well, no it cannot, and it would be utterly nerve wracking if it went on forever. On the one hand you are excited, on the other hand you are always wondering if it is really going anywhere, and you are trying to get to know somebody for the first time, so everything about them is new.
After a while, everything about them is not going to be new or exciting
But the passion can ebb and flow, and the comfort and the support of real love is more than worth the effort for two people to work at keeping it going, IMHO.
You are correct. That rush cannot be sustained. But when the full-on rush fades, it is still possible to rekindle that flame on occasion to keep the excitement going inside an older MATURE LOVE Relationship/Marriage. However, if there is NEVER any inkling of the excitement or rush (regardless of how samll), 'some' people open themselves to finding it outside the marriage rather than looking deeper (which requires work) INSIDE the marriage. And the BIG RUSH of a new R is apples to oranges over the more familiar "inside the M" rush. BUT the BIG RUSH cannot be sustained, as we have agreed.
That is why Affairs break up so often and the Infidelity folks expose to push that effect.
An affair (or what is also sometimes referred to as MLC) is a drug addiction. Some are more susceptible than others. Like any addiction.
Why would you want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you?
Authorized!
"The fog" which is spoken of is the failure to recognize/acknowledge any of the above and/or be under the influence of the "Love Drug (PEA)" which prevents ANY analysis of the above. I would also consider that the attitude of "R's run theit course and that's that" IS a attributeable and a symptom of the same "fog"
Ah, The "fog." But does not the "Sun" dissipate the "Fog?"
For a moment consider, human beings living in a underground cave since childhood. Their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move. Prisoners. The mouth of their prison opens toward the light and behind them a fire. So, all that they could see would be shadows.
Their reality would be literally nothing but the shadows of what is going on behind their backs.
Now, suppose we were to release these "prisoners" and lead them out of the mouth of the cave. At first, would not, the sun be harsh to their eyes? Painful and irritating. And confusing, as they would not fully understand their new reality and, simultaneously, not be able to see the "realities" of the shadows of their former captivity.
Yet, their eyes will grow accustom to the light. At first, focusing on shadows, then reflections, then objects themselves. Till eventually he would be able to look into the light. The sun.
At that point, he no longer would be able to see in his old habitat but now would be able to contemplate the meaning
of this new existence, which offers more than that of living in darkness.
Certainly. I think that it would better to suffer and experience that which is foreign than to entertain false notions and live in a miserable manner.
Ah, The "fog." But does not the "Sun" dissipate the "Fog?"
The "Sun" (light/love) warms the air so the temperature rises above the dewpoint (ILYBNILWY). "Fog" seems to like darkness. Hard to grow in the dark also.
"you can deal with this or you can deal with that, this or that?"
You guys are WAY too deep for me today.
Where's that cigar thread I started???
Puppy
Kimmie,
I think that it is a dangerous assumption that keeps LBS from moving on. The whole idea that a spouse is "in a fog," "not themselves right now," or otherwise "insane," just because they don't want to be with us anymore.
I wholeheartedly agree!
Most humans don't really want the depth and comfort of longevity. It's boring to them. They want the excitement back.
Yet I very recently read of a survey (I forget where) that said the overwhelming majority of men polled listed "Wanting to be in a close, intimate, lifelong relationship with a woman," as #1 desire.
I believe that most relationships simply run their course and that is all there is to it.
I dunno. That seems awfully fatalistic. But, statistically, you may well be right...
I used to be a fatalist until I realized there was nothing I could do about it.
Peace,
Fun. A challenge.
"you can deal with this or you can deal with that, this or that?"
Hamburgers.
"Is your boyfriend gay? I think he is gay
he just doesn't know it, yet,"
Ferdinand said to Isabella, "I think
you are swimming in too deep of waters."
It was 1492.
Columbus sailed the ocean blue
in search of hamburgers.
It was a foggy morning.
It only took him two years to convince her to let him go.
Sailing for hamburgers, and flies, and money.
This or that, he would ask her, "this or that?"
He was the only man that could make her scream, "Money."
There is a fly on my hamburger.
There should be a law
against me being in love. I am too fickle.
I had a mid-life-crisis at twenty.
I used it to blame it on my indiscretions
of money.
Big Mac and a Coke.
No Coke. Pepsi.
If I had a dime
for every time
we fought over money
we wouldn't be fighting over money, honey.
If I could get her to blame it on "the fog"
I'd be golden.
Like fries and arches and rings.
If I could get her to get back on the table,
or at least wear those high heels again.
Pat, fat, drunk and twenty nine
is no way to go through life my father told me.
Little did he know I was the best damn sailor
east of the west
Indies.
"Great Admiral of the Ocean"
laying the queen.
Cheese turds.
I tried.
But couldn't keep it together.
Was thinking about how hard we LBS try to "win our WAS back and It brought me to remember the scene in Ground Hog Day with BillMurray.
He tried so desperately to save the homeless man but each tme he tried something different the man would always end up dying.
He would not accept the fact that it was the man's time to die.
We LBSs need to let go of the notion that we will have out M back. Doing so we accept the situation and grow as individuals.
If they come back great, if not we still need to continue to grow as an individual.
I am totally convinced my M is over but still have a great R with my kids.
The pain does go away. And like many say here, Why would you want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you?
Hey gr8, Ground Hog Day is the one movie a coworker of mine recommended as the ultimate movie for what we are all going through and if you think about it he is right.
Bill Murray goes through all kinds of stages in the movie (hedonistic, manipulative, depressed, suicidal etc.) but what really works for him and gets him the girl is his becoming the best person he can be. He doesn't do it to try and get the girl (that failed miserably). He just accepts his lot in life and works on himself. He learns piano, he takes care of others, he just becomes a great confident guy and when he does people find that very attractive and woman fight for him.
When you're feeling down, I highly recommend watching this movie!
We LBSs need to let go of the notion that we will have out M back. Doing so we accept the situation and grow as individuals.
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want my old M back! That realization did make me grow and remember who I really am, which is not the aloof, short-tempered woman my marital situation created.
My H has not owned his part in the fallout - has not called off his lawyer - but things are progressing in a positive direction. I am happy to have managed to consistently 180 from the damaging behaviors I have owned. We definitely have positive movement - now I need to set tougher goals.
Agreed. But if my W would do what your H hasn't either (and obviously stop the A), I would be open to a NEW M with her.
I am preparing myself for my NEXT M....regardless of who my W turns out to be.
My H isn't having an affair, and I can't imagine how painful it is to deal with that extra piece. It was bad enough to receive a letter from his lawyer.
Looking back, I can find several times where both H and I treated strangers better than we treated each other. It shouldn't be that way.
I'm thinking of my M as a plant. And every day I ask myself "what do you do to water your plant today?" This plant needs daily water or it shrivels and eventually dies. It took almost losing the M for me to get that - and I'm not out of the woods yet.
The bottom line is actions, not feelings on the issue. That's the true test of maturity - which is what WAS's lack. What you do is more important than how you feel right now.
I see the same things. I even noticed it after the ILYBINILWY letter. I thought "If we can be so much more open and considerate now, we're halway ther to FIXING this mess" That was before I dicovered the A.
...every day I ask myself "what do you do to water your plant today?" This plant needs daily water or it shrivels and eventually dies. It took almost losing the M for me to get that..
I was guilty of this for a long time, too. As was she. Neither had the coping skills or thought to learn what was happening or what to do. Until lthe bomb dropped on me. Ironically, after all is said and done, I will owe my W gratitude as she at least DID SOMETHING (the bomb; NOT the A)to break the stalemate and get me on the road to recovery. It'll be too bad if we lose the M in the process.
I've posted something I read somewhere and it's close to what you say about the plant.
"Marriage is like farming. You start again every day."
Yes, we too were both guilty of not nourishing our M. I also give my H credit for doing something, even though he did it in a hurtful way and definitely could have handled that better. I've forgiven him because we were in a bad place. I "set him free" and accepted responsibility because the alternative (arguing, crying) did nothing. Then I became the person he originally wanted - which is who I really am.
Plants - farming. Maybe the key is to treat the M as a living thing and remember it does need nourishment and weeding everyday.
Sorry about the A. I do have a friend who's M survived one, but I have no idea how common that is.
I've forgiven him because we were in a bad place. I "set him free" and accepted responsibility because the alternative (arguing, crying) did nothing. Then I became the person he originally wanted - which is who I really am.
And this is the journey I am on right now.
I feel better and closer to the gol every day. Three forward and one back.
Another quote I read on here that is in keeping with the topic ...
"the grass is always greener ... where you water it"
Peace
PEI
"the grass is always greener ... where you water it"
Someone here had this as their tag-line.
"The grass is always greener when you don't p on it."
LRT,
And every day I ask myself "what do you do to water your plant today?" This plant needs daily water or it shrivels and eventually dies.
Excellent!
Ironically,
Gardener never asked himself that question...
If only...(sigh).
Peace,
Things that make you go hmmmmm?
This OM was the guy she was supposed to marry and he did abandon her without any reason. Has haunted her for years.
And she is still attracted to him. Hmmmm?!
"The grass is always greener when you don't p on it."
Depends. Where I live, urine quickly breaks down into urea which is almost pure nitrogen, and thus an excellent fertilizer. I have noticed my backyard needs no ferlizer due to the dogs using it as a bathroom.
Another example of what can happen when you finally let go..
The SOONER you let go, the faster and the better the reconciliation...
More proof from "gutwrenching"......
I took the advice of Gucci and Steve McQueen and made sure she knew I was letting her go...and things changed quickly.
In her words - the reality of what I was doing finally hit me and I didn't like it. I didn't like who I had become. I didn't like what OM had turned me into. I wanted my H, my M, my family back. And then you were distancing yourself quickly, you wouldn't even answer my texts for hours, and I didn't like it. My gut was telling me I was doing the wrong thing. Combine that with pressure from OM and OM starting to act "like an @shole#$" and I got the "I wish I had never met him. He almost ruined my life. I thought it was what I wanted, it took the reality of you driving away with the kids to make me realize I was wrong and had to break it off immediately, for good, for real this time"
Gucci,
Can you check out Pinheads thread. He thinks by pursuing he is doing a 180.
Letting go has been tough for me because, I admit, I am a bit of a control freak. Managing others has helped me to learn that when you delegate you need to let that person succeed or fail on their own (unless of course I'm going to take the fall and then I have to take control
).
Since I am having a hard time not asking questions while I continue to do my 180, I'm trying to think of the lawyer as a task I have delegated to H. He started it - he can finish it. All I can do is be the W I want to be in any M. I can't control what he does - and to that extent I have "let go" of the outcome. Yet, I act "as if" I am happy and everything's fine and avoid questions that will rock the boat.
I'm not sure I have the patience for him to take some action with regard to the lawyer, account, etc. But I'm trying. Not pouncing on this stuff is a real 180 for me.
I have been living in limbo with WAW for about 4 months. During that time i have been trying to LRT , slipping up sometimes, trying to figure out what would possess her to give up our good life.
No EA or PA as far as I could tell after much investigation, no real explanations ( real to me anyway ) etc. She was angry, silent and just really unpleasant to be around.
yesterday she did something that really annoyed and frustrated me and I decided i had had enough and just gave her the speech.
"If you dont want to be with me then leave, I will do everything I can within reason to facilitate that. It doesn't work for me me to be with someone who does not want to be here"
I then sat down and worked out the finances, decided on division of property, figured out how and when we will put the house up for sale.
I discussed all this calmly and quietly and without too much emotion except she teared up at one stage.
Funny thing happened after that. Her anger seemed to evaporate and we started talking pleasantly and the complete dynamic of our relationship changed. The "I want out of here NOW" attitude changed.
She will still leave and i will encourage her to do so. We needed something to shake things up and this I feel is it. If at some time she WANTS to come back then i will figure out what works for me.
After it was all over I had my first solid nights sleep in 4 months and felt like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulder.
As a previous poster said. Whats the worst thing that can happen THEY WILL LEAVE well THEY WERE LEAVING ANYWAY
well THEY WERE LEAVING ANYWAY
Got to stamp your post to my forehead, robx!
I wish I hadn't done so much arguing and pleading (during my pregancy and post birth of our baby..7 months of pathetic neediness). Is there any way to 'undo' all that??
robx has it right on his advice to you.
If you toss him aside you will gain his respect. Respect is built when a person takes a stand for themselves regardless of what's going on. When you stand up and claim your right to be happy, claim your right to be with someone who will love and respect you, claim your right not to be a doormat or treated with such disrespect, then you gain people's respect.
But the most important outcome of doing this is - YOU GAIN BACK RESPECT FOR YOURSELF. And that trumps everything else.
Piano -
"It's obvious you are a person who would walk away from his responsibilities. You father children with me and then just walk away based on how you feel rather than doing what's right based on the responsibilities you have created.
You are not the kind of man I want to be with and you are not the kind of person I want in my life. You have a right to do whatever you want to do, but I have a right to chose what is healthy for me. I have no respect for a person who can do what you're doing and acting so selfishly.
I deserve better than that and so do my children. I do not want them modeling such irresponsible behavior."
My WH takes his plane tomorrow for his country of origin where he will be shaking up with OW, leaving me and 3 month old behind.
He left me a note today asking me to forgive him for what he did to me and us.
Do I reply?
This is almost exactly how I feel too MIL.
This is almost exactly how I feel too MIL.
which part?
If your wife filed for d then you busted the a and she imeadely started seeing a new man is there any reason to give her the goodby speach. I just do not contact her except kid related things. It really makes no since to me to contact her and tell her she's free she filed for the d and we don't have contact I counterd sued for d and started a custody fight 10 days after discovering the a I ask her one time the night she dropped the d bomb on me about mc we have not discussed the r not one time I have not begged or pleaded. I did spy on her to catch her with him with my kids there. No longer do that. Is this detaching or the next time we speak and she gets off the subject of kids then do I give her the speech. She's living it up and I think she releases she's free just not sure but I know right now the less contact I have with her the better I like it.
I think I will try the phone coaching next week to get someone who has a better understanding to give me some insight.
Texas,
It's not "detaching" to allow your wife to commit adultery in front of your own children. It's just FOOLISH. So PROTECT THOSE KIDS, first and foremost, by laying out some boundaries.
Having done that, then yeah, just let her go, in the manner in which Gucci explains in this thread.
Puppy
Puppy I am doing every thing I can to get custody and put a stop to it. She has the attitude that she can do whatever she wants and the courts will not do anything about it. My lawyer keeps telling me to be pacient we will get them. Wednesday when I found out that om2 has criminal record we have set some things in motion to speed the process up. I have no problem being hard and firm with her I exposed her first affair so she dumped him and started a new one that she is not hiding from kids or parents. Any ideals on how to set boundaries she has no remorse or regrets I am willing to try if you have any ideals I have read many of your post and really like no bs approach but she is in the drivers seat and I have nothing to hold over her
I was a doormat for 13 years since the d bomb my 180 has been to not be her doormat
Please hit me with a 2 x 4 if I need it.
Please hit me with a 2 x 4 if I need it.
I exposed her first affair so she dumped him and started a new one that she is not hiding from kids or parents.
You are not even her second choice.
Bump I want to discuss my sitch here. Later tonight.
I really was a jerk for the majority of our marriage. When she dropped the bomb it was a sledge hammer between the eyes and woke me up to the fact I was a jerk. I started working on myself and really started learning how to Love her and myself.
During this time she was and is going at one night a week and not coming home till 2:30 to 3pm. She started a new job in June and is working 3 nights to 4 nights per week. She would also go out 1 night and was starting to stay out later and later. 4 4:30, 4:45. The last time she did I had someone check up on her. She came home at 4am and lied to me about where she was. I didn't get mad and let her know that I new that didn't happen. She wasn't with anyone else. She just wants to do what she wants to do.
She told me how she felt I told her how I felt and she said "don't you think that this is the only way I can make you feel the way I felt all those years and get away from this.
She stated that she was afraid to tell me the truth. I told her I couldn't just be a babysitter anymore. She stated she didn't care and said she was done last year. She expects me to separate and divorce her. I finally had to admit to myself I needed to give her what she wants and I'm moving out in two weeks.
Yesterday she asked me if I was going to get her a newer car than she had and I told her no. Later in the day she handed me insurance cards we just switched to her insurance 6 weeks ago. I told her I didn't need them. She looked at me and said " so your not staying on my insurance."
I hurt her over the years. I've apologized and made amends. She is very hurt. I can no longer stay and be the baby sitter. I plan on moving out and separating. I don't want a divorce.
I would appreciate any advice. My thoughts are to give her what she wants. Separation and divorce even though thats not what I want. I'm already leaving. Is it dumb to set a goal of going out on a date.
JTJ
JTJ
Go on a date if you want to go on a date for yourself..don't do it to get a reaction out of her!
Give her what she wants...a life without you. You don't have to file for divorce unless you are doing it to protect yourself.
Good luck to you.
^
newbies, pls read the first post on this thread.
Bumping for OneLessWife who was searching for this thread.
This entire thread is a classic!! A must-read (along with Robx's thread, and ReadyToChange's quotes) for anyone!
thanks!
Starsky
I was thinking about this very topic when reading some of the posts today.
At some point you just get tired of feeling sorry for yourself, and you decide to go on with your life. When that first happens, it's a bit daunting, and folks use phrases like "starting a new chapter" blah, blah. That's the point when they are deciding to go on by themselves (like they had any choice in the matter) and are finally beginning to accept what has happened, and the next step is realizing they are still themselves, this is the same life not a new book or even new chapter really.
And once you let go, then you recognize something: your wayward spouse may be in all sorts of strange pain and denial, but it's just not your problem. You almost feel sorry for them. Maybe compassion is a better word. They can't hurt you by drunk calling/texting you, by accusing you of things, by blaming you, and... the one that took me the longest to detach from... telling you what you think.
Crap happens in life, but you get over it, and if you get over it before your wayward spouse... well, in my case anyway, that sure peaks their interest, and boy will the test that, but if you are over it, you are all about living your life again, not trying to rescue them, and so on.
TH
You almost feel sorry for them.
I wrote that on my thread today, so true.
You almost feel sorry for them
I don't I am in lets get this crap over with I do not feel sorry for me, for her I feel absolutely nothing, I feel sorry for my kids. I feel nothing for her
Ahhh Dump, I was looking for the same thread.
graet minds think alike.
yes.
however, i have no idea why they locked the other thread on "what women are attracted to".