Originally Posted by wayfarer
Next you want AP out of his head and out of the MR. Ok reasonable expectation. Unreasonable is the time line and the way you want it to be. He had a serious relationship with someone else for 2 years. That person is a part of him and his history now. In the same way an old bf of yours would be. The fact is if you want this MR you have to accept that that relationship for him was a real and valid relationship and she doesn't simply disappear from his psyche because you will it so. She will always be there the way any of your exes are there. But that doesn't mean he can't commit. It doesn't mean he isn't willing to do the work. It doesn't mean he isn't trying or wanting to try. You can't have a M 2.0 that is completely devoid of everything it took to get there.

okay. I think you're right, especially that last part. We are where we are, can't erase the past.

But, I'm struggling with how to do this. Where I've been this whole time is that I'll be okay with the fact of it having happened once it is completely in the past. But maybe my definition of "completely in the past" is not reasonable. I don't know. Even you saying he had a serious relationship with another person ... which I know to be true.. validating it with the term "relationship" makes me want to vomit. Still. I hate it.

Or if he was doing what your H is doing. Calling you beautiful, telling you he loves you, telling you over and over how glad he is that you stood. Then, I also think I'd have an easier time feeling more generous about what happened in the past.

We talked more tonight. He says some of these things. That he loves me, he never stopped. that he knows we'll be okay, that he wants to do the work. That he is so sorry that he hurt me, that he lied, that he betrayed me. [He is NOT saying he is sorry it happened.] That he's getting over her, he doesn't think he's "in love" with her anymore. But he isn't saying it was all a horrible mistake, he never really loved her, all the fantasy reconciliation apology words.

He said he thinks we need to take steps towards each other. He suggested that his work is first empathy, then remorse. Mine is understanding, then forgiveness. Is it wrong that I don't want to do this until I get the words I want to hear about her being dead to him?

He said, maybe we need more time before we do this, then. He's really uncomfortable with my anger and said it completely shuts him down. That he can't be the one that I dump my anger on.

I said I was scared of going back to M1.0. He said immediately... this isn't M1.0. And we can't go back there. We need to see a MC or something, maybe. I said I agreed.

He wants to talk about the SSM. We talked about it a little, I'd previously told him I didn't want to discuss it with him anymore (because he ran to it so quickly every time the A came up). He talked a little about how he felt. I think I've underestimated how much it hurt him. I could see it in the lines of his body when he talked about it even just a little, he tensed up, his voice, everything about him got tight and upset. He said he isn't over it, how it felt for me to take my love away from him for so many years. I'm debating whether or not I'm open to talking about this now. I think i am. It is separate from the A.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Everything H says and does isn't about the A. And that thought process is on you. That's not on him. I know I've brought this up before. You will get over this long after H has decided he's over it. So you can keep punishing him so as long as you feel bad he feels bad. Or you can start working through some of this on your own. May I've said it before and I'll say it again. It is not your job to make H forget about AP. And it's not his job to heal you from your hurt and anger. You have individual work to do.

I have been working through this... I think I just have a lot to get through. I told my friend a couple of months ago I was scared of the anger because when I let it in it was like a raging fire, not an emotion you can feel and it peaks and goes on its merry way. She said, maybe it is because there is just so much there. I feel I'm stripping it all away a layer at a time. I have felt way better until today on all of this. And I truly don't feel bad or sad or angry right now. But it was still there, today.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
You haven't forgiven him or AP at all here. Not even in the sense of pity. The longer you hold on to the anger the longer it's going to eat you up inside. It won't just destroy your chances for a M 2.0 it's going to destroy your chances at healthy relationships in the future. Forgiveness doesn't require the transgressor to be 100% remorseful. It's doesn't require the affected person to forgive all either. Forgiveness isn't a zero sum game. It's a step toward happiness and wholeness. Gifts you deserve to give yourself after all of this. The longer you grasp tightly at the what if scenarios, the because of scenarios, and the pain this has cause you, the long you will drag the A on into the future. The longer AP will hang over you. The longer it's going to take you to get down a road where you're working on M 2.0 or your moving happily down that road alone.

No matter what path you choose here, if it's the right one for you I support it. But I can't just sit back and watch you wield your rage like weapon. Rage isn't always fire. It very easily can be ice. You need to be careful here. And maybe do a little self assessing.

I know I haven't forgiven him. I don't think I can, yet. I know I can when this is in the past. It is like to me, the spark of the A still exists, infidelity at some level, in the feelings he still harbors for her in his brain. When that is totally over and in the past, I know I can forgive. But today I don't think I can because there is still a kernel of the A happening, at least in my mind it is. Am I being totally ridiculous on this? I know my H would say so, that I'm trying to control how he thinks and feels. Am I? But regardless, I don't think I can reach forgiveness until I still work through my own feelings about all of it. I see it in the future. But not yet.

I feel worse about the record, now. I know I minimized it even to you guys. It was Jack Johnson's new christmas album, who is my very very favorite artist in the world. We danced our first dance at our wedding to one of his songs. The record store had 10 signed copies and he drove down to get it. When he got there, the guy said they were sold out. H was disappointed, chatted with the guy and browsed a bit, and then the guy went to the back and came back out and said I found one last copy, they hadn't put it out because one corner was a little smushed. He came home and he was all excited and said, I have a present for you, a Christmas present, but I really really want to give it to you early okay? And gave it to me.

I do feel badly about this.

Yail... so good to see you. I'm thinking on your advice and tried to keep it in mind tonight... easier said than done though!

Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing