Hi Everyone,
Joanne has agreed to work on her marriage with a little bit of my help. I want to do this with her because a, I think it will be helpful and b, everyone reading this will understand the nuts and bolts of being solution-oriented and how I work. Suffice it to say that what I'm about to do with Joanne is not to be considered therapy. Therapy is what happens in my office. There are many confidentiality issues to contend with and there are plenty of other differences. In fact, I would suggest that Joanne and her husband seek professional counseling with an SBT as well. However, this will help you understand some of the thinking behind my books, tapes and seminars. And mostly, I surely hope Joanne and her family will benefit from it.<p>If you want to read what lead to all of this, go to this post. In particular, read the dialogue between Joanne and me:<p> why Joanne wants to walk<p>Here's what I suggested that Joanne do so that we can begin this process:
I want you to start off by really thinking about no more than three goals you have for your marriage. Remember, they must be action-oriented. Describe what I would be seeing or hearing if I were a fly on the wall in your home or somewhere near where you and your husband are. Also, make sure they are stated positively rather than describing what he or you both will be doing less of. For example, "I want to hear more compliments"...rather than "I wish he weren't so critical." Finally, make sure that your goals are broken down into the smallest step possible. Ask yourself, "What will be the VERY FIRST sign that things are moving in the right direction in regards to this particular goal?"<p>Once you write your goals, I will review them and help you fine tune them if necessary. So let's get started. <p>I'll be looking for Joanne's next post. <p>If you have questions about this process, you can post on this thread. However, please do not ask questions about your situation here. Start another thread elsewhere. Thanks for your cooperation.
Michele<p>[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: Michele ]</p>
Hi Michele and Joanne- I just finished reading the walkaway thread you provided the link to and I have to say that I truly found it fascinating. Fascinating, I suppose because it reminded me that the process of formulating action-oriented goals is not just for the potential walkaway, but also really for the spouse who has been left. The key differences seem to be that for the spouse who has been left the action-oreiented goals are self-goals and are not necessarily openly shared with the walkaway, while the potential walkaway is looking at and clearly communicating the goals that he or she wants or needs the spouse to achieve. Interestingly, at the risk of generalizing a bit, it would seem that the walkaway Hs often refer to nagging and smothering neediness as part of the basis for leaving and the walkaway Ws refer to neglected intimacy as part of the basis for leaving. Both obviously have the common thread of communication breakdown and, Michele, your technique is so good at showing the path to changing the WAY you deliver messages, as opposed to recommending that you necessarily change heartfelt messages.
All of this is again such a helpful reminder that the work that one needs to do in maintaining and nurturing a healthy relationship is lifelong. Michele, I guess I don't actually have any questions at this stage and merely offer my comments and appreciation re. your finding another avenue to help those of us who truly want to stay on a positive course and learn as much as possible. Thank you and I look forward to reading more about the assistance you're providing Joanne--Jamie
Jamie, You hit the nail on the head. The truth is that everyone benefits from developing action-oriented goals. No matter what the state of your marriage or the rest of your life, for that matter, knowing what you want in concrete terms, makes getting there easier. So let's see what happens next. Michele
I have to admit straightaway that I have thought about this all day and don't seem to get a handhold on it. Three things that I would like to achieve in my marriage.
I would very much like him to treat me at least as well as he does other people. I would like him to be interested in me, who I am and how I feel about everything and anything. I need him to initiate talking that isn't about him or his job or other people, but is about me, him and us. And I need him to listen and really absorb what I say about my feelings.
There are a lot of issues in that one area.
1. Making me feel my feelings are important to him. 2. Respect for me and what I say. 3. Him remembering the feelings I talk about and taking care of them because that's an important thing for him to do. 4. Him getting defensive - and that's not because I'm attacking or criticising, it's because he doesn't deal with feelings, especially mine. 5. Him looking for the problem and trying to fix it by telling me how I should feel. 6. Him telling me that I shouldn't feel what I feel, that I'm wrong to feel that way. 7. The subject being changed to something he wants to say about something I've done that he doesn't like.
Finances - I would like him to take more responsibility over the finances and the budget by:
1. Making a permanent record of what has to go out every month and when. 2. Paying bills on time. 3. Dealing with problems up front so that we can plan a solution. 4. Talking about it - NO SURPRISES. 5. Talking and planning it so that I don't have to get a job to make up for the shortfalls due to bad planning.
Togetherness -
I would like us to do and enjoy doing more things together by:
1. One night a week doing one thing together that he wants to do and one night a week doing one thing that I want to do together. 2. Spend 3 nights a week with the TV totally off, no computers allowed and do something else that's fun. 3. Exercise together with nobody being boss.
I have a feeling that I may be way off base here because this somehow was very hard. Maybe I'm being too general and not really specific. Well, this is my first attempt so I'll wait and see what you say and realign myself accordingly.
Dear Joanne, Well, we're off and running. Good girl! You did your homework! Let me give you some feedback. ****************************************** You said: I have to admit straightaway that I have thought about this all day and don't seem to get a handhold on it.
Actually, setting goals can be quite challenging. Thanks for your honesty. You did better in regards to your goals about financial issues and togetherness issues than your first goal, but I'll help you with all of it.
Three things that I would like to achieve in my marriage.
I would very much like him to treat me at least as well as he does other people. I would like him to be interested in me, who I am and how I feel about everything and anything. I need him to initiate talking that isn't about him or his job or other people, but is about me, him and us. And I need him to listen and really absorb what I say about my feelings.
Now, what I want you to do for each of your sentences is to ask yourself, "What will my husband be DOING or SAYING when: a) he is treating you as well as he treats others b) he is interested in you and your feelings c) he is really interested and absorbed in what you are saying.
What are the actions you will see? What will he be saying? You have to be specific. You're right when you say that you aren't specific enough here. So start again, okay?
Secondly, no other person in the world, no matter how much he adores you, will be interested in everything you say and do. I know you're a really interesting person, but you're asking too much here. Sometimes he might be preoccupied, uptight, depressed and he won't be very intrigued. Other times, what interests you might be incredibly boring to him. That's life. You can't expect perfection, so come up with a more realistic, and more specific goal.
And finally, it is often the case that women, more than men, initiate conversations about their relationships. Your husband is no different from most men in this regard. I would suggest that you not expect him to initiate these conversations, but rather, that he learn how to become more responsive to you during these conversations. I think you will have a much better chance of feeling fulfilled. You need to understand and accept that he may never yearn for these kinds of conversations in the same way you do. Men and women are different. Although there are some men who enjoy talking about their relationships, many don't cherish the thought of it. I have a cartoon where a couple is out to dinner at a restaurant and there is a sign on the wall that reads, "Thank you for not talking about your relationship." She is grimacing, he is smiling. So there you have it. You may not like my saying this, but after working with thousands of couples...I'm just telling you like it is.
So I would suggest that you pick a new goal, one that would describe what he will be doing when he is genuinely participating in discussions about the two of you.
Now, in regards to the seven issues below, ask yourself the same question I told you to ask yourself above, “What will he be doing differently when he…..Make sure you are describing what he is doing rather than what he will stop doing. But I do want to say this. I suggested that you pick two or three things you want to improve about your marriage. Each one of the things below is a goal. Don’t bite off more than you can chew. It will frustrate both of you.
There are a lot of issues in that one area.
1. Making me feel my feelings are important to him. 2. Respect for me and what I say. 3. Him remembering the feelings I talk about and taking care of them because that's an important thing for him to do. 4. Him getting defensive - and that's not because I'm attacking or criticising, it's because he doesn't deal with feelings, especially mine. 5. Him looking for the problem and trying to fix it by telling me how I should feel. 6. Him telling me that I shouldn't feel what I feel, that I'm wrong to feel that way. 7. The subject being changed to something he wants to say about something I've done that he doesn't like.
Finances - I would like him to take more responsibility over the finances and the budget by:
1. Making a permanent record of what has to go out every month and when. 2. Paying bills on time. 3. Dealing with problems up front so that we can plan a solution. 4. Talking about it - NO SURPRISES. 5. Talking and planning it so that I don't have to get a job to make up for the shortfalls due to bad planning.
You did a good job with your financial goals. Good! Only one suggestion…plan a meeting time.
Togetherness -
I would like us to do and enjoy doing more things together by:
1. One night a week doing one thing together that he wants to do and one night a week doing one thing that I want to do together. 2. Spend 3 nights a week with the TV totally off, no computers allowed and do something else that's fun. 3. Exercise together with nobody being boss.
This is good too. You were very specific for the most part. A couple of suggestions. Start with one night a week without the computer. That’s because if you fulfilled goal 1- you will be together two nights already. Add a computer-free night to that and you have half the week. That’s a good start. Secondly, when you say, “nobody being boss,” again, what will you both be doing differently when that happens?
Hope this all makes sense. You have your work cut out for you now. You have to fine tune things a bit. I hope you noticed that the fuzziest goals were the ones you’ve probably pleaded for ad nauseum over the many years of your marriage. I hope you can now see that you might not have been as clear or as realistic as you need to be if you want to have a loving and happy marriage. Anyway, I hope this helps. Let’s keep this going. Michele
[This message has been edited by Michele (edited 08-25-2000).]
Michele, what I have done is to take the sentences you wanted me to look at again and work on, and have left out the other goals for the moment. As you said, there were too many goals and although I will keep working on them and realigning them, these ones are important. As you said, I have been asking for these for years and years. To me, rightly or wrongly, I feel they are the backbone to building the intimate relationship that isn't there. They all revolve around honesty, openness, respect and trust, the four things that have not been a part of our past marriage, at least from his side, and must be there in order for us to build a new relationship from the ground up.
"I would very much like him to treat me at least as well as he does other people."
He would smile and be light hearted but sincere. Gentle in his approach and say things that are warm and caring. His tone of voice would tell me that he is more interested in me than what he has been doing all day.
He would say things that he knows are in my mind, or in his mind and want to talk about them because his "job" has finished for the day. Things like what we are going to plan for that evening, or do around the house, or go out, where and when. I have never expected him to NOT talk about his work and his day, I am interested in that too, but it has always taken first place. I used to say to him that he had a full half hour when he came in that I would listen to what had happened in his day and then the rest of the time was our time for other things. He didn't like that, he felt it was controlling and that I wasn't interested. I always feel that I am in competition with his job for his attention and efforts and I always lose out. His work and what he's done take priority over everything. I look for balance. I'm happy that he enjoys his job but there must be a balance between living to work and working to live.
"I would like him to be interested in me, who I am and how I feel about everything and anything."
He would be commenting on how I feel, how I look, and what I'm doing, showing interest verbally in my ideas and asking questions about why, when, where, who and what. Usually it ends up in an argument because he feels the need to play devil's advocate on how I feel, how I look, what I'm doing, my ideas, my wants and needs. He would ask questions so that he understood, support me verbally with his understanding and ask me how he could help me achieve what I want and need in my life. He would tell me that my wants and needs are important to him too. Everything and anything are a bit of an overstatement, but I mean it in general terms, not every little bitty detail about everything under the sun.
"I need him to initiate talking that isn't about him or his job or other people, but is about me, him and us."
He would voluntarily make deliberate moves to be alone somewhere quiet so that we could talk even if I have to start the talking. He would tell me what is going on in his head about our relationship. He would discuss where he is right now, where he wants to go and how we should work at getting there. He would tell me ideas that he may have and verbalise what he wants and needs from me as well as listening to the same from me. Maybe the subject would be hopes and dreams, maybe families and what is going on with them, maybe politics or future plans.
"And I need him to listen and really absorb what I say about my feelings."
He would look at me, listen without interrupting and tell me his perception of what I am saying. He would ask questions so that he reached a full understanding of what I am saying. He would switch off everything in his head apart from the words I am saying to him. He would feel comfortable telling me that he couldn't listen to me right now because a) he's too bothered about other things b) his need to be listened to is greater than mine c) he's annoyed with me about something d) any other reason….. but agree to make time in the very near future to hear what I have to say. He could tell me if what I want to talk about isn't of any interest to him and why. In general terms, I can accept that but not if it has anything to do with our relationship. Perhaps we should schedule time for OR talk to be separate from other talking but I'm not particularly comfortable formalising it like that, it makes me feel like we are sticking OR in a box until 8pm on a Tuesday and the rest of our life is somehow separate and different.
What I'm trying to do with these goals is to say "Hey, please be interested in the things that are important to me because I need to feel that you care about them as much as the things that are important to you. I need you to do that for me. I need you to please look after my feelings in a loving and caring way. I need to feel as if I'm special in your life, that the person I am on the inside and show on the outside is loved because of my being who I am, feeling what I feel and acting how I act. I am happy with who I am, I need to hear and see that you are happy and love me for who I am." I just don't know how to say that in other words, or in action-oriented terms. I know these are needs and not goals, but I'm sorry Michele, I'm kind of stuck here. I know I have to turn these needs around into words and actions but my brain seems to be blocked. I have asked myself, how do I do it, what do I say and do that shows these same things to him but all I can come up with is that I am a naturally empathetic kind of person, I automatically work at understanding how he feels and why. Some women are more empathetic than some men. If I am and he isn't, how do I promote that kind of behaviour in him? He takes all the kindness, caring, consideration etc. etc. from me and he likes what he gets. Yet he cannot be that way back. Don't get me wrong, he's not a bad person, he is kind and caring and considerate in superficial ways but it's the deeper connection that I don't get and am struggling with how to communicate so that I do get it. I hope I am making sense here.
I know men don't relish deep and meaningful OR talk, but it doesn't always have to be that. There are so many other things to talk about that give lots of information about a person and who they are, their views and opinions, the things they aren't interested in just as much as the things they are interested in. I would like us to start from the beginning, like about the second date, and find out who we are married to. Let curiosity and interest put the questions in your head that come out through your mouth. Yes, we did this in the beginning, but after we were married, having children straight away, moving jobs and moving houses, it somehow stopped and was never started again. We were always too busy doing other things. That's what I would like to start again now. Forget the assumptions and taking for granted, the wrong ideas of feelings, and rebuild that connection and love between us. So how do I do that? Should one of my goals be to make time to talk about ourselves?
I'll stop here before I tangle myself up any more.
Over to you.
Joanne
[This message has been edited by Joanne (edited 08-26-2000).]
Joanne, I can see that you've been workiing very hard at this so let's dig in a bit deeper.
"I would very much like him to treat me at least as well as he does other people."
He would smile and be light hearted but sincere. Gentle in his approach and say things that are warm and caring. His tone of voice would tell me that he is more interested in me than what he has been doing all day.
He would say things that he knows are in my mind, or in his mind and want to talk about them because his "job" has finished for the day. Things like what we are going to plan for that evening, or do around the house, or go out, where and when. I have never expected him to NOT talk about his work and his day, I am interested in that too, but it has always taken first place. I used to say to him that he had a full half hour when he came in that I would listen to what had happened in his day and then the rest of the time was our time for other things. He didn't like that, he felt it was controlling and that I wasn't interested. I always feel that I am in competition with his job for his attention and efforts and I always lose out. His work and what he's done take priority over everything. I look for balance. I'm happy that he enjoys his job but there must be a balance between living to work and working to live.
After reading this, I am going to sift out of all of it the parts I think are really clear. The rest is fuzzy. 1- YOu want him to smile when he comes home. 2- He can talk about work for a half hour if he wants, but then you want him to talk about other things such as your plans, what you are going to do that evening or things that need to be done around the house.
When you use terms such as, sincere, light-hearted, and so on, it really doesn't say too much that is helpful. Okay?
Now, you say that he feels that you are controlling and not interested in him when you try to limit the time he talks about work. I agree with you that everyone needs balance in their lives and that life isn't just about working. You are absolutely right about this Joanne. However, I suspect that he feels unimportant to you for other reasons. I don't know what they are just yet, but I wonder why he doesn't feel as if he's number one on your list. Sometimes, when men feel unimportant to their wives, it has something to do with their intimate relationship. Often something is missing. I don't know if this is true for the two of you, but it is certainly the case with lots of people who will be reading this and many who aren't! If this is going to work, you will need to hear from him why he feels unimportant to you, even if you hate what he has to say and disagree vehemently. You said you want to have honesty in your marriage, well, go for it.
Nonetheless, it's important, as you already know, for couples to have time together that is free from work-related issues. So, you're on to something important here, no doubt.
"I would like him to be interested in me, who I am and how I feel about everything and anything."
He would be commenting on how I feel, how I look, and what I'm doing, showing interest verbally in my ideas and asking questions about why, when, where, who and what.
Give some examples of things he will be saying to you when he comments on how you feel or look. In regards to asking you questions, think I understand that you just want him to ask you your thoughts about things such as, "What did you think about that movie,?" "WHy did you respond the way you did to your friend?" Right? Give some examples.
Usually it ends up in an argument because he feels the need to play devil's advocate on how I feel, how I look, what I'm doing, my ideas, my wants and needs.
Again, when he stops playing devil's advocate, what are the kinds of things he will be sayiing to you? Be specific. Are you talking about compliments here?
He would ask questions so that he understood, support me verbally with his understanding and ask me how he could help me achieve what I want and need in my life. He would tell me that my wants and needs are important to him too. Everything and anything are a bit of an overstatement, but I mean it in general terms, not every little bitty detail about everything under the sun.
From this I get that, again, you want him to ask you more questions about your thoughts and tell you that what you want for yourself in your life is important to him too. (I have a feeling that you might not be as clear as you think you are about what YOU want for YOURSELF in your life, but that's a whole other issue. Maybe we'll get to that too. I wonder how you feel about your own life as an individual, completely separate from him. I always tell people that relationships should be icing on the cake, not the cake itself. We have to be happy as individuals if we are going to make a marriage work. But more about that later.)
"I need him to initiate talking that isn't about him or his job or other people, but is about me, him and us."
He would voluntarily make deliberate moves to be alone somewhere quiet so that we could talk even if I have to start the talking. What does this mean? He would say, "Joanne, let's go take a walk alone," or "Let's go out to dinner, just the two of us,?" Is that what you're saying. Be specific.
He would tell me what is going on in his head about our relationship. He would discuss where he is right now, where he wants to go and how we should work at getting there. He would tell me ideas that he may have and verbalise what he wants and needs from me as well as listening to the same from me. Maybe the subject would be hopes and dreams, maybe families and what is going on with them, maybe politics or future plans.
This is fairly clear. However, he might have trouble doing this. This doesn't mean he is being dishonest or doesn't love you enough. Some people are just not good at or comfortable with these kinds of discussions. Ask him questions rather than expect him to take the lead. And then, if he does respond, even if it isn't perfect, you must really compliment him. Let him know how much you appreciate the effort he is making, even if it isn't 100% right! Joanne, I have a feeling that you've been so disappointed in your relationship that much of what happens between you is negative and critical. You both need to change that. Any time he verbalizes something personal (since that is what you seem to yearn for), let him know how happy you are. Even if his personal sharing isn't completely positive, tell him you appreciate that he is willing to share his thoughts. That will go a long way to encouraging him to do it more and work harder at it.
I know you might feel defensive because you've been working hard at your marriage for a long time. But there is a big difference between working hard and working smart. I am trying to show you the difference. Okay?
"And I need him to listen and really absorb what I say about my feelings."
He would look at me, listen without interrupting and tell me his perception of what I am saying. He would ask questions so that he reached a full understanding of what I am saying.
So far, so good. Really good.
He would switch off everything in his head apart from the words I am saying to him.
And you would know this because....(see what I mean here?
He would feel comfortable telling me that he couldn't listen to me right now because a) he's too bothered about other things b) his need to be listened to is greater than mine c) he's annoyed with me about something d) any other reason….. but agree to make time in the very near future to hear what I have to say. He could tell me if what I want to talk about isn't of any interest to him and why. In general terms, I can accept that but not if it has anything to do with our relationship. Perhaps we should schedule time for OR talk to be separate from other talking but I'm not particularly comfortable formalising it like that, it makes me feel like we are sticking OR in a box until 8pm on a Tuesday and the rest of our life is somehow separate and different.
This is very clear and that's great. You are getting better, girl. However, I want you to think about something. I like the idea of scheduling OR talks, if that will be helpful to him. Keep in mind, in the same way that he doesn't like you to schedule time for him to discuss work-related issues, you might not like scheduling OR issues. But I say, "That's tough guys, that's what relationships are about, give and take. You both have to give. That's what love it."
What I'm trying to do with these goals is to say "Hey, please be interested in the things that are important to me because I need to feel that you care about them as much as the things that are important to you. I need you to do that for me. I need you to please look after my feelings in a loving and caring way. I need to feel as if I'm special in your life, that the person I am on the inside and show on the outside is loved because of my being who I am, feeling what I feel and acting how I act. I am happy with who I am, I need to hear and see that you are happy and love me for who I am." I just don't know how to say that in other words, or in action-oriented terms. I know these are needs and not goals, but I'm sorry Michele, I'm kind of stuck here. I know I have to turn these needs around into words and actions but my brain seems to be blocked. I have asked myself, how do I do it, what do I say and do that shows these same things to him but all I can come up with is that I am a naturally empathetic kind of person, I automatically work at understanding how he feels and why. Some women are more empathetic than some men. If I am and he isn't, how do I promote that kind of behaviour in him? He takes all the kindness, caring, consideration etc. etc. from me and he likes what he gets. Yet he cannot be that way back. Don't get me wrong, he's not a bad person, he is kind and caring and considerate in superficial ways but it's the deeper connection that I don't get and am struggling with how to communicate so that I do get it. I hope I am making sense here.
I know men don't relish deep and meaningful OR talk, but it doesn't always have to be that. There are so many other things to talk about that give lots of information about a person and who they are, their views and opinions, the things they aren't interested in just as much as the things they are interested in. I would like us to start from the beginning, like about the second date, and find out who we are married to. Let curiosity and interest put the questions in your head that come out through your mouth. Yes, we did this in the beginning, but after we were married, having children straight away, moving jobs and moving houses, it somehow stopped and was never started again. We were always too busy doing other things. That's what I would like to start again now. Forget the assumptions and taking for granted, the wrong ideas of feelings, and rebuild that connection and love between us. So how do I do that? Should one of my goals be to make time to talk about ourselves?
Joanne, I really do understand that you want more of a connection with your husband and this makes perfect sense to me. Spending time together, talking, having fun is such an important making of keeping your live alive. I'm glad to hear you say that you were able to do this long ago. Now I know that the ability to connect is there.
I'm also glad to hear you say that you would feel that it's acceptable for him to tell you that he's not in the mood to talk or listen sometimes. That's good. I get the feeling from your posts that you are quite directive with him (although not always clear) and that he tells you that he will do what you want him to do, just to get you off his back, and then he doesn't do it and, for that matter, probably resents you. (He might not even be aware of this resentment himself). In addition to your learning to be more action-oriented and realistic about your requests, it would be great if he could stand up to you more strongly. IF I were working with you both, and I were right about this dynamic, I would certainly talk to him about his allowing you to take charge the way you do. Now don't get defensive. First of all, I could be entirely wrong about this. Remember, I've never met you and my only impression about you and your h is through these words, these posts. It's hard to read between the lines sometimes. However, if this sounds true at all, and he were willing to be stronger with you,- tell you what he wants, likes, needs, tell you when he wants you to back off and so on, you need to ask yourself whether you'd be okay with this. Sometimes you'll hear things you might not like hearing. When you tell a person- "Tell me more about yourself, what you think and feel," you are opening up Pandora's box. Often the closed up person became that way because sharing negative feelings was met with hostility or disappointment. You can't have it both ways. Either you want your husband to be open and honest or not. Remember, honesty is a package deal. He might tell you, "I don't really feel like talking about our relationship very often. If you want to do it, fine, I'm willing, but it's not my thing." So be honest with yourself. Are you ready for the man you are asking him to become?
I really like your idea of dating. Why not try to enjoy each other's company, have fun, laugh, joke, kiss, rather that try to fix the problems? (I hope you can see the irony in what I'm saying here.) There is more than one way to heal a marriage. YOu can talk things through or live them through. Both are valid, both are necessary. So, when you ask, "should I set aside more time for talking,?" I say, "No, not necessarily. Set aside more time for fun."
I'll stop here before I tangle myself up any more.
I think you are in the process of untangling yourself, Joanne. I do want to say one more thing. I know you won't agree with this, but the things your husband does for you are not superficial. You might want more, and that is understandable, but don't belittle his way of reaching out to you. Many women would love the small things he does for you.
I have a homework assignment for you if you are willing. First, respond to this post so I know what you're thinking. Then. take a few days and notice things about your marriage and your husband that are worth keeping. In other words, what's happening in your life that you want to continue to happen? Pay attention to those things and post your responses.
Michele, just a quick reply for now because it's evening here and 'together time' for us. I will give you a more thorough answer tomorrow when I have time to print your reply out and really read it.
First, I see and hear where you are pointing me and will gladly move closer in that direction, or at least try my best. Secondly, my mind is pretty much wide open so I don't get agitated or disagree with anything you are saying.
Thirdly, the 5 days apart seem to have done us the world of good. We needed a break from the intensity of things. We are both much more relaxed with one another at the moment.
Lastly,in spite of my own situation, I am still working with other people. Yesterday a close friend with a crisis in her relationship. I've focused my DB techniques to her situation, talked all day yesterday, and have turned her from a "ready to crack up" person into someone who is at peace today. She, like others, has told me I have a gift and should use it professionally. It's good because it also helps me sort out my perspective but also leaves me wishing I was as good at doing it properly in my own marriage. Still, I'm feeling pretty good and pretty positive again and ready to really dig in to all that you suggest.
Joanne, Glad you're feeling happier. I'm really glad that absence made the heart grow fonder too. And, not a bit surprised that you help people. You've been doing it here for a long time.
OK, here I am at last. Sorry it has taken so long to post again but I have had a really busy few days and not a lot of time for the computer. On top of that, things have been pretty good OR wise. Both of us have been very relaxed and having some fun. He has noticed some changes in me and I have noticed some changes in him. All very good and positive, I might add.
Anyway, I'd better get down to the main topic.
"I would like him to treat me at least as well as he does other people."
1. Yes, I want him to smile when he comes home and look happy to be here. He might tell me he's missed me or ask what's for dinner, suggest something to do that evening. 2. He can talk about work. If he's stressed about something, he can talk about it and I'll listen. Half an hour or longer, if necessary. When he's finished talking about it, I would like him to be interested and talk about plans for the evening or things in the house or ask me about my day. Basically though, he can talk at any time about anything that is on his mind about work but make sure he balances it with other things. 3. OK, sincerity and lightheartedness are attitudes, not actions. Perhaps he would tease me or ask what is for dinner, or notice something I've changed in the house, or changed about my appearance.
I have said that he found certain things controlling and I suppose I'm not really being fair about that. To be truthful, his whole attitude during most of our marriage was that he felt I was controlling but he has changed that attitude and now realises that it wasn't controlling at all but that I was trying to build a balance in our life and relationship. He doesn't say that about me any more.
I have asked him if he feels that he is not NO 1 in my life, that I have treated him like he wasn't important and he says no, quite the opposite. However, there is a reason why I believe he might feel a lack of importance but that is not something I feel I would like to share on this board, nor do I feel it is relevant to this discussion. Sorry.
"I would like him to be interested in me, who I am and how I feel about everything and anything."
He would ask me how my day has gone, ask me if I've been a basket case of tears or managed to get through the day, if I had any major traumas. It's difficult for me to go back to places we all shared and had fun and I'm not ducking that. It upsets me badly the first time and then gets easier. Going shopping is a nightmare for me. I've also voiced feelings about what I want to do in my life. My life and my career has been standing still since I got married, and I really wanted to be a stay at home mother but always had to take a job to bolster up finances due to bad planning. So although I could have stayed at home and studied or done some of the things I wanted to, I was stuck at the same job and frustrated at not having enough time with my kids. That might sound like a bit of a contradiction. So the things he could say to me is "That sound like a good idea, tell me more." Or "Is there anything I can do to help get you information." In other areas, yes, he could say, "Why did you act like that to X?" "I heard what X said to you and I didn't like it, are you OK?"
Yes, I want him to ask me more about my thoughts and feelings and I'm very clear about some things that I want in my life. My direction work wise is not clear. I've come up with a couple of ideas and kicked them around in discussions. He has started to be more supportive. The other day he said why don't I do a distance learning course in Psychology and we'd find the money so that I could do it. He also spoke to someone who has a friend whose wife does counseling here. His direct contact is going to find out some information about setting up to do that here, even perhaps arrange a meeting with this woman. So all that is positive and proactive and very helpful. I've told him I'd like to buy your package on KLA and will discuss this further to sort out the finances to accommodate it.
I am happy with who I am but frustrated with not doing something productive with my life. I totally agree that if I had a satisfying career that would fit with the time I want and need to be with my family, then I might find that it simplified my thoughts and actions in my relationship. However, the relationship has to be right at the same time and support and teamwork must be part of it so that everything balances out.
"I need him to initiate talking that isn't about him or his job or other people but is about me, him and us."
In hindsight, this sounds very selfish and self centered, but isn't meant to be. I appreciate that this is difficult for him and he is getting better at it. No, I don't compliment him and talk my appreciation of that as much as I should.
If he switched off everything in his head apart from the words I am saying to him, I would know this because when he replied to me he would use my words in replying to me, he would tell me that he understood and give me his perception of what I'm saying.
I will talk to him about scheduling work talk time and OR talk time and we will come to an agreement.
Now, about me being too directive and him not standing up to me. Yes, I am direct and think I am pretty clear, although from this discussion I can see that there is plenty room for improvement!!! Our biggest problem in that area is that I am a very direct, up front kind of person. I don't play games, I don't manipulate and I'm not dishonest. Most of our marriage he has lied and manipulated to get what he wants. I simply ask. However, he decided that I was controlling and manipulative. I wasn't getting what I wanted from my marriage, in spite of asking, explaining why, and doing it in the simplest possible terms. For example, " Darling, if you feel you have to play golf 5 nights a week, could I please come with you once or twice?" Yes, I went for golf lessons so that it could be something we shared and enjoyed together. But he didn't want to share that with me, he wanted to play only with the boys. He wasn't getting what he wanted from the marriage and instead of sorting it out with me, he just went out and lived a life just for him. He felt me wanting to share these things with him was me trying to control him. He has always told me what he likes, wants and needs and I have bent over backwards to accommodate those but I drew the line at also living a life of my own without him. One, because I didn't want to give him permission to do that and two, because it didn't solve the problem and would only have encouraged our drifting apart. There was no way, no how, I was going to allow myself to be in a position to give in to the temptation of an affair. I can say very truthfully that I have never been in a position to be tempted and haven't cheated on my marriage in any way at all.
I am very happy to open up the Pandora's box. I want and need the whole package deal of honesty, both positive and negative. I am totally ready for the man I want him to become because I believe totally that the truth is always easier to deal with, no matter what it is. At least that way I will learn about who this man is that I am married to and learn also what I need to learn about living with that man. If I know where he's coming from, and I know where I'm coming from, we can work out the necessary compromises to make life easier for both of us and get on with really enjoying one another.
Now onto the homework assignment. Quite frankly, I've asked myself this so many times and found it hard to come up with the answers. However, I do have to say that today we had a little disagreement and a discussion about trust. He said that he had noticed how much I have changed in the last few days and that has made him happier in the way he has treated me. I said maybe the way I'm acting is because of the way you have changed and the way you have been treating me in the past few days. He looked a little stunned and said, "I never thought about it that way."
He is changing, slowly, but changing nevertheless. He is being much softer and gentler and making suggestions about things I do. My friend was here today and he said why didn't we both go out to lunch, he'd watch the children. He's living the caring and consideration but the difference is that he's enjoying it. I don't doubt for a second that the superficial things are important too, I do appreciate them and I tell him. But I can feel the difference now. He's not doing them because he believes he's doing something wonderful for me, he's doing them because he wants to. He's a physical person, that's his language and I'm beginning to stop feeling threatened by it and just enjoying it. And if you want to know why I feel threatened by it, it's because that is always his way of getting me to give in to what he wants. But……..I have to keep reminding myself that those gestures are in the past and that we are working at building a new and different future. I don't expect everything to change, this is my H, and there are some things that won't change. The things that are worth keeping are his physical affection and his fun. Those are things that I need to nurture. There are probably lots more but I need to stop here. My computer time as run into excess and together time is calling.
