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#622131 01/20/06 09:34 PM
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Hi LL,

I havent been back on the boards for an awfully long time, but I decided to take a look and see if there was anyone I recognized, and Lo there you were!

Not much has changed, has it? Not much has changed in the exchanges you have with the other fine folks around here either.

Well, not much has changed for me either. But I do have something different you may want to try. It almost looks like youre already trying it out for size.

Give up!

Thats what I did, and though it hasnt improved anything, its made life tolerable.

and aside note to H2H and others:

I dont completely disagree with you. In fact, youll note below that I revel in any small thing. Im not being facetious when I say that. But Ive refocused my efforts from trying to change my Ws POV/attitude (whatever you want to call it) to allowing myself to love her despite the way she treats me. Im not kidding myself that thingsll ever get better, but I havent relinquished all hope eiher.

I saw on your last thread that people were trying to get you to envisage your future either divorced, or married. Theyre asking you to look deep into your soul and try to figure out why you want to stay M, or why you want to D.

The problem with this kind of thinking is that it is an attempt to justify your values and your feelings. Cant be done, LL. Your values and feelings cannot be reduced to words.

I believe in marriage and commitment. I cant explain why that is considering I get nothing back from either. But its what I believe in. I truly believe that my W shares this belief, but her vision of what that means is different from mine, and she cant explain it any better than I can. Her vision of what M should be seems so feeble, and if the truth be known, it looks a lot like your Hs vision.

I havent had a trace of affection in any form for four years. A peck on the forehead, or sometimes even on the lips for the kids benefit, but nothing genuine. No phone calls. No doing anything together Nada!

How do I handle this?

It took some mind-twisting at first, but I reduced my expectations to zero. If I can make a kiss last longer than a nanosecond, then I revel in it, but dont expect it to change.

I dont try to foist affection on her, but to the extent that shell allow, I try not to stifle my affection for her. I work my butt off at the office, and then I come home and do more chores than I previously thought I would have the energy to do. This is what she wants from me, so this is what I give her. Outward signs of affection are unwelcome, so I express my affection inwardly.

Love is give and take, but I cannot take what she will not give. I can only give what she is willing to take.

Loveless marriage? Not quite. I love her!

Some posters say you deserve more, and I completely agree. But what will you gain by divorce? The only thing I can think of is the freedom to seek the love you deserve with someone else. The key word is seek, LL. I think the reason you dont go for it is because there are no guarantees that thingsll be better in the long run.

The argument has been made that your current M is showing a bad example to your kids. What sort of example would it show if they saw the same thing twice?

Im not saying thatll happen, LL, but I think that this is one of your concerns, and is maybe why you want to be sure thingsll be better if you file.

The other thing is that I dont think your kids see a lack of affection. I know everyone says that kids are soooooo observant, but the truth of the matter is, they love their mom. they love their dad. If you make it obvious (by divorcing) that things are bad, theyll see it, and itll hurt.

I can say that from the perspective of a child of divorce, and a parent living in a semi-loveless marriage. I know it doesnt fit common wisdom. It isnt a popular sentiment. But Ive looked for, and not found, any evidence to the contrary, so as far as I can tell, the so-called experts are just forwarding their own concept of how it should be.

By saying this, Im not trying to talk you into one course or another, LL. Divorce will not end your kids lives. But it will not improve them either.

Which brings me back to you. Whats the difference if you live your married life as if you were divorced (your Hs vision), or actually file. The only difference I can see is that youll be living under separate roofs and trying to figure out how to reduce the impact of this arrangement on your kids.

Like you, I want a better M (for me). But sometimes we cant change or R by changing ourselves. So, I choose to make a better M for my W. Let everyone scream, Andys a doormat! from the rooftops.

But Im not a doormat, LL because I consciously choose this path not to better my M but because in my value system, its the right thing to do. Im only a doormat if I choose to feel like a doormat.

Ive given trying to get the marriage I want. I have to admit that I havent given up on wanting it, or even hoping it will happen some day. But Im sure you remember me saying, that my biggest goal is to be, The best Andy I can be.

Of course, thats defined by Andys values, so I wont say that Im better than anyone else, and you or anyone else can think of me as a doormat or anything else. I dont care. Its all a matter of perspective.

Just giving you another POV that you may want to try out. Figure out your values, LL, and dont justify them to anyone. Not anyone on these boards. Not your H. Nobody. Your values are yours.


Andy
#622132 01/24/06 01:53 PM
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H2H,

Thanks for your words but from them I can tell you don't fully understand my position at all.

It's not simply about "getting over myself"...it's not about simply creating a better experience for myself with or without H.

I have created a better experience for myself in all other areas of life with the exception of a romantic/intimate r with h that I cannot do alone no matter how hard I try somethings gotta come from him and it's not.

does that mean I should leave? I'm not certain and that's the conundrum I find myself in...not happy with h and not sure I'd be any happier without him.

LL

#622133 01/24/06 02:08 PM
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Hey Andy,

I'd hoped that you'd be telling me your r with w is finally what you want.

Quote:

Not much has changed, has it? Not much has changed in the exchanges you have with the other fine folks around here either.




HEY, I'm not sure exactly how to take that! I know I can come off as brash or cold or even condesending at times but when people continue to try to get their point across in a way that communicates to me that they aren't fully understanding my position what can I do but be honest.

Quote:

Well, not much has changed for me either. But I do have something different you may want to try. It almost looks like youre already trying it out for size.

Give up!

Thats what I did, and though it hasnt improved anything, its made life tolerable.





I have in some sense given up and though it makes things tolerable it still leaves me with an empty space...I can have all the hobbies, friends, personal goals etc keeping me afloat but with out a reciporically intimate r with my intended life long parnter aren't I missing something? acceptance of "that's just the way it is" isn't going to fill that void it's just (in my opion) giving in.

Quote:

I saw on your last thread that people were trying to get you to envisage your future either divorced, or married. Theyre asking you to look deep into your soul and try to figure out why you want to stay M, or why you want to D.

The problem with this kind of thinking is that it is an attempt to justify your values and your feelings. Cant be done, LL. Your values and feelings cannot be reduced to words




I know this, YOU know this but I don't think others know this. How can I express my position to people on a bb when my position can't be fully put into words.

Quote:

The key word is seek, LL. I think the reason you dont go for it is because there are no guarantees that thingsll be better in the long run.





In part that is very true but not all of the equation.

Andy...I don't look at you as a doormat...I look at you as someone who's still got hope and desire but what's going to happen to you and your r with w when that hope and desire burn out like the expectations have? that's kind of where I am now...sure there are sparks of hope left but not enough to start the fire and eventually without tending too those sparks may go out too...what then?

LL

#622134 01/24/06 08:47 PM
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Hi again, LL,
Quote:

I'd hoped that you'd be telling me your r with w is finally what you want.



me too.

***sigh***
Quote:

HEY, I'm not sure exactly how to take that! I know I can come off as brash or cold or even condesending at times but when people continue to try to get their point across in a way that communicates to me that they aren't fully understanding my position what can I do but be honest.


That was my point, really. As great as the advice youre receiving is, youve tried pretty much all of it before, and youve also told people that youve tried it before. I dont see you as brash, cold, or condescending.

But I sure see you as frustrated both with respects to not getting results from your DB efforts, and for trying to explain why you arent getting results.

On the other hand, there are signs of hope for you. I think youre too tired and frustrated to act on them, and I can certainly understand that!

As to the rest of it, I completely agree. In principle. When I say I still have hope, I mean yes. I have hope. For someday. But I bury that hope because theres no reason or evidence for me to have hope. Truthfully, things have got much much worse since the last time I posted to you. My M has truly got to the point where I have no interaction with my W outside parenting, and housework (which, of course, we do separately). If I were to actually feel hope, Id die.

Its one of those things that comes under the category of Your values and feelings cannot be reduced to words. I guess the closest I can come to explaining it is that I compartmentalize my feelings. If W doesnt shrink away when I kiss her, or when I place my hand against her leg while she sleeps, I enjoy the moment.

And then its gone. Cant dwell on it.
Quote:

but with out a reciporically intimate r with my intended life long parnter aren't I missing something? acceptance of "that's just the way it is" isn't going to fill that void it's just (in my opion) giving in.


I too feel very empty sometimes. W says Im being negative

Ive given up trying to persuade her. That hasnt worked in years. She only treats me the way she wants to be treated, and the way she thinks I deserve to be treated. And the way she feels capable of treating me. Quite honestly, its probably the same attitude I had towards her. What Ive found out about myself is that I not only underestimated the impact of this attitude on my Ws feelings, but I underestimated myself. I was capable of more. Im adamant that I wont underestimate myself again.

Quote:

Quote:

The key word is seek, LL. I think the reason you dont go for it is because there are no guarantees that thingsll be better in the long run.




In part that is very true but not all of the equation.


Yeah. I know.
Quote:

Andy...I don't look at you as a doormat...I look at you as someone who's still got hope and desire but what's going to happen to you and your r with w when that hope and desire burn out like the expectations have? that's kind of where I am now...sure there are sparks of hope left but not enough to start the fire and eventually without tending too those sparks may go out too...what then?


My greatest fear throughout my DB-ing was that I would work so hard by myself - on OR that the sparks would go out, but surprisingly, they didnt. The only explanation I have for that is that I could see the error she was making when she vilified me. I decided not to fall into the same trap.

If you want to try my methodology, LL, it would simply be to take pleasure when your H calls you during the day. Say yes, and enjoy it when he makes advances on you. Have supper with your H when hes home early enough, and talk to him. Enjoy his company.

And dont expect consistency. Thatll only come if you dont expect it of him.

So there ya go. More of the same advice youve been getting all along

And once again, its advice only you can follow. Wish I could talk to your H.


Andy
#622135 01/24/06 10:41 PM
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Quote:

I have created a better experience for myself in all other areas of life with the exception of a romantic/intimate r with h that I cannot do alone no matter how hard I try somethings gotta come from him and it's not.




Take a lover ....

That way your kids will have you and your husband together, your husband will have you to cook his dinner, you will have your husband to take out the trash and you will have a passionate and intimate relationship with someone.


V

Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
#622136 01/26/06 04:33 AM
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Andy,

Quote:

And once again, its advice only you can follow. Wish I could talk to your H.




You'll have to get in line with the multitude of others that with they could talk to my h.

I'll keep hanging on to what's still there for as long as I can...that's really all I can do for now.

LL

#622137 01/26/06 04:35 AM
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Quote:



Take a lover ....

That way your kids will have you and your husband together, your husband will have you to cook his dinner, you will have your husband to take out the trash and you will have a passionate and intimate relationship with someone.





Though it's certainly not the first time that option has been suggested to me...I have to wonder if you are at all serious or just testing me.

taking a lover would only solve one problem...but of course in solving that one problem it would cause a pluthera of others.

LL

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