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#561944 12/06/05 04:49 PM
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hey Fran,

I've given up. This m is clearly over...h and I are just going through the motions of playing house for the sake of the kids. I can't do that.

LL

#561945 12/07/05 01:00 PM
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Good Morning, LL
Quote:

I've given up. This m is clearly over...



Is this true? Or can we assume that yesterday was not a good day, and today we can start again?

-H2H

#561946 12/07/05 02:49 PM
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Quote:

Good Morning, LL
Quote:

I've given up. This m is clearly over...



Is this true? Or can we assume that yesterday was not a good day, and today we can start again?

-H2H




In a large way yes it is true. This m was over probably before it even started. It's been a long time since h and I were "on the same page" as they say...probably before we even got married. I tried...H tried to justify his lack of trying by claiming to try in His way (working to provide for our future vs. working at building a r)

H never had time to talk with me about our problems (his lack of time for the r, his lack of interest in sex among the top two) when he would have time there was no resolve my concerns were just marked with "here we go again".

I felt and still feel that the only time in our r that h was able to be honest with me was when he was leaving.

h half heartedly returned...at first admitting confusion, being scared, wondering if "it" would be there with us, then admitting that he had to sacrifice for his family. We had some fun times together when he first started coming back but they didn't last and weren't completely meaningful...there wasn't much growth or connecting other than physically.

H is unwilling to discuss our r, he's taken a stance...he's doing what he needs to do.

we had another argument monday night. I confronted him with his soiled underwear again...this time trying not to accuse him of any wrong doing but instead with concern that he could have something medically wrong with him as I don't think it's common for grown men to leak seminal fluid in their underwear on a weekly (sometimes twice a week) basis. He grabbed the underwear from me and invesitgated them vigourously as if I were making it up. then said nothing more than well if it continues I'll look into it. I suggested this isn't something he should wait on...it IS happening now has been happening for a couple of months and is worth a call to his doctor just to be safe. H of course argued the timeline with me...I didn't bother to let him know I've got it in a journal back two months.

frustrated I let him know I don't trust him...his reaction to my concern left me feeling less trustful.

I let him know I'm not happy with the state of the m.

h went on to say "I don't know what you think m is supposed to be but this is what m is at this stage...we've got young kids your raising them and thats stressful I'm working to pay the bills and we just deal with it"

that is a course for divorce I tell him...if w is caring for house and kids and h is working to pay bills and they just go off and deal with their stresses on their own in their own ways they are only going to grow apart...then what attempt to have a r with a person that's just been their roomate for the past decade or more?

h then asked me "what did you go to your c this morning"
I let him know I cancelled my last appointment...there's really no point in me going to talk to someone who doesn't think I belong with him.
"that's great advice" says h

later in the evening after finding h lying on our bed sideways with the lights on we have more words....h says "you know what your problem is...see I surround myself with a certain kind of person.."

I interupt with a discription of one of his only two friends"

"what people who are popping pills (friend has been on paxil and other pills for a while...shared them with some drunken people at our 4th of July pty) addmitted alcholics who surf for porn on our computer"

"no...I surround myself with married people...you look at your friends...two of them are getting divorced"

as if the fact that one of my friends is getting a d has anyting to do with how I feel about my m. and I let him know though I don't totally disagree with her reasons for d (her and her h had been misserable for years) I don't agreee with how she's gone about some things

as far as the other friend...she had already filed for d when I met her and again...hell I even tried to convince her not to D.

Does it not matter that none of my friends were getting a divorce two years ago...a year ago...three years ago and I still wasn't satisfied with the state of this r?

silence.

more silence.

more him sleeping on the couch

still getting pecks on the cheeck hello and goodbye.

but they mean nothing he'd kiss my friends or his family the same way...and he still kissed me like that when he "loved me but wasn't in love with me"

on that note h did at one time after coming home admit to not being in love with me...but throwing my own words back in my face that being in love isn't important. Well it becomes important once one of you leaves the r as a result of it.

UGH!

LL

#561947 12/07/05 09:12 PM
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Hey LL

So sorry you are feeling this way. It seems to me like H's version of M is not your version. He just seems to see it as some kind of drudgery you've got to get through. Do you know anything about his parents M?

I totally understand why you cannot bear to continue this way. I told my H a long while ago that what he contributed to the M was the same as if we were D. IOW he was just paying the bills and he would have to do that if we got a D. The thing is I think men like your H and mine just don't really KNOW what to do with a wife, it's like it's something they know they're supposed to have like a car or a house but the whole issue of making and maintaining a proper relationship is beyond them. I bet they think of us like a troublesome car or something that they keep having to tinker with to get it to run properly - LOL. It's just annoying that we don't run smoothly, i.e. smile nicely get on with raising kids and keeping house, be ready for sex when THEY want it, not need sex when they don't.

In no way do I want to encourage you to get a D, but you and I have both been on these boards a long time and I haven't seen your sitch get any better LL, ups and downs but not fundamentally better.

Quote:

I felt and still feel that the only time in our r that h was able to be honest with me was when he was leaving.




Funny thing is that H is only ever honest with me if I threaten to leave. And he behaves much better for a week or two. I have only ever done that a couple of times and it has been when I really have reached rock bottom and can't stand another second of it.

You have all the great DB advice here, so that even if you do go for D you can handle it in a better way by being on these boards. Maybe you two can just wind up being friends who co-parent your kids and lead new lives with or without a SO. But you can't do that under the same roof. See there I go sounding like I am rooting for you to get a D I don't mean it that way, but you have to have a different future to the life you have now.

{{{{LL}}}}

Fran


if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs
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#561948 12/08/05 12:46 PM
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Hi LL,
I don't have much time this morning, but wanted to throw out a few questions & comments.
Quote:

H is unwilling to discuss our r, he's taken a stance...he's doing what he needs to do.




I think many of us understand the frustration of an unwilling conversant - I'm sure you'll recall that both Sage & Slowly would have liked their spouses to discuss the a. - the why's and particularly how to recognize the warning signs and not go down that path again. And yet, neither of them have gotten the "talk" they so crave. However, they have managed to sit with their itch for a chat, and chosen to focus on what they CAN do to keep things going in the right direction.

You seem insistent on getting H. to talk about the R. which thus far seems to be a big, fat, cheeseless tunnel. I am wondering if you could put this push to talk on the shelf for a while and start focusing on smaller things - on those oppty's of telling him you're glad he's home for dinner, and perhaps returning that peck on the cheek you get with one a few seconds longer, etc. I know they are very small things, but it sure doesn't look like you're going to get that talk by insisting on it.
Quote:

we had another argument monday night. I confronted him with his soiled underwear again...this time trying not to accuse him of any wrong doing but instead with concern that he could have something medically wrong with him as I don't think it's common for grown men to leak seminal fluid in their underwear on a weekly (sometimes twice a week) basis.



Oh dear, LL. C'mon, you didn't expect this sort of confrontation to go well, did you? Any sort of 'confrontation' and accusation or evidence of close scrunity only serves to put him on the defensive! I know it bugs you - but honestly, LL, did this get you any closer to ANY of your goals? It seems to me you are bent on proving to H. that you're no fool - that you are watching him and just waiting to find the 'proof' you need to feel justified in leaving. If you look hard enough, you definitely will find it - rightly or wrongly - you will be able to convince yourself. Stop looking for everything WRONG, and start focusing on what's right....
Quote:

frustrated I let him know I don't trust him...his reaction to my concern left me feeling less trustful.

I let him know I'm not happy with the state of the m.




Well, this is great if indeed you want to put him on notice that you are leaving. But if you're here to save your m., then I'd say that telling him this seems to serve only to convince him that there's nothing he can do. It definitely seems that H. does NOT respond well to negative reinforcement, which is why I keep asking you to do small, Positive, things . . .
Quote:

I interupt with a discription of one of his only two friends"



Stop interrupting! Give him a chance to express his POV - you've been here long enough to know that we spend a lot of time learning to Listen and to validate - not AGREE with whatver our spouses say, but letting them know we are open to listening and understanding their point of view.
Quote:

still getting pecks on the cheeck hello and goodbye.

but they mean nothing he'd kiss my friends or his family the same way...and he still kissed me like that when he "loved me but wasn't in love with me"




I know they are not the kisses you crave. And your frustration is once again coming out LOUD and clear. But sweetie, there's just no pleasing you. There's not a single thing H. does that pleases you. A peck on the cheek is still a gesture in the right direction - you can choose to build on what's good, rather than knock it down as not good enough. I'll admit that I do get that feeling from your posts, that nothing is good enough.

Look, LL, it's ALL in your hands really - you have to decide one way or the other: are you here to try to save your m.? Or are you here to find validation for the decision to leave your m.? I'll say it again, either way I'm willing to support you, to help you clarify your goals and the best way of acheiving them, but after a while, just expressing what's wrong, what's not enough, and not trying to build on what's right, trying small, different things just doesn't cut it. I know you will tell me you've TRIED - but I am talking about NOW, since you've come back to the boards. I haven't seen any 'experiments' or listing of positive words you've expressed to H.

LL, what do you want?
-H2H


#561949 12/09/05 08:49 PM
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Quote:

Hi LL,
I don't have much time this morning, but wanted to throw out a few questions & comments.
Quote:

H is unwilling to discuss our r, he's taken a stance...he's doing what he needs to do.




I think many of us understand the frustration of an unwilling conversant - I'm sure you'll recall that both Sage & Slowly would have liked their spouses to discuss the a. - the why's and particularly how to recognize the warning signs and not go down that path again. And yet, neither of them have gotten the "talk" they so crave. However, they have managed to sit with their itch for a chat, and chosen to focus on what they CAN do to keep things going in the right direction.

I'm not familiar with slowlys' sit but know very well that my sit and Sage's have very little in common. It's much easier to sit with that itch for an r talk when you have an r with your spouse...it's been clear for a long long time that she does have a r with her h...they do spend time together...they do things together and for eachother.

You seem insistent on getting H. to talk about the R. which thus far seems to be a big, fat, cheeseless tunnel. I am wondering if you could put this push to talk on the shelf for a while and start focusing on smaller things - on those oppty's of telling him you're glad he's home for dinner,

I'm not happy when he's home for dinner...it's like having an unexpected dinner guest that changes the dynamic and peacful flow of things. Why should I lie and tell him I'm happy he's home? instead I just try to make the best of it. and perhaps returning that peck on the cheek you get with one a few seconds longer, etc. because I don't want to and I'm tired of persuing him...the rejection is not worth it. I know they are very small things, but it sure doesn't look like you're going to get that talk by insisting on it.
Quote:

we had another argument monday night. I confronted him with his soiled underwear again...this time trying not to accuse him of any wrong doing but instead with concern that he could have something medically wrong with him as I don't think it's common for grown men to leak seminal fluid in their underwear on a weekly (sometimes twice a week) basis.



Oh dear, LL. C'mon, you didn't expect this sort of confrontation to go well, did you? Any sort of 'confrontation' and accusation or evidence of close scrunity only serves to put him on the defensive! I know it bugs you - but honestly, LL, did this get you any closer to ANY of your goals?

so I should just ignore everything and play happy lil housewife and hope that it gets me somewhere?

It seems to me you are bent on proving to H. that you're no fool - that you are watching him and just waiting to find the 'proof' you need to feel justified in leaving. If you look hard enough, you definitely will find it - rightly or wrongly - you will be able to convince yourself. Stop looking for everything WRONG, and start focusing on what's right....

what's right?? I'm tired of focussing on crumbs hoping they'll turn one day into a slice of bread when all they do is remain crumbs.


Quote:

frustrated I let him know I don't trust him...his reaction to my concern left me feeling less trustful.

I let him know I'm not happy with the state of the m.





Well, this is great if indeed you want to put him on notice that you are leaving. But if you're here to save your m., then I'd say that telling him this seems to serve only to convince him that there's nothing he can do. It definitely seems that H. does NOT respond well to negative reinforcement, which is why I keep asking you to do small, Positive, things . . .

h doesn't respond to much of anything but what he does respond to is negative reinforcement...shortly after any such confrontation is when I finally get the crumbs of what I want...all the waiting or nice talk doesn't get it.

Quote:

I interupt with a discription of one of his only two friends"





Stop interrupting! Give him a chance to express his POV - you've been here long enough to know that we spend a lot of time learning to Listen and to validate - not AGREE with whatver our spouses say, but letting them know we are open to listening and understanding their point of view.


His point of view was to tell me what my problem is...more ridiculous excuses and blame throwing from him.

Quote:

still getting pecks on the cheeck hello and goodbye.

but they mean nothing he'd kiss my friends or his family the same way...and he still kissed me like that when he "loved me but wasn't in love with me"





I know they are not the kisses you crave. And your frustration is once again coming out LOUD and clear. But sweetie, there's just no pleasing you.

yup that's me the insatiable biatch that he just should have stayed away from. Man are you ever wrong.

There's not a single thing H. does that pleases you.

currently no there isn't much that he does that pleases me.

A peck on the cheek is still a gesture in the right direction - you can choose to build on what's good, rather than knock it down as not good enough. I'll admit that I do get that feeling from your posts, that nothing is good enough.

because it isn't good enough. I don't try to hid that fact from anyone.

Look, LL, it's ALL in your hands really - you have to decide one way or the other: are you here to try to save your m.? Or are you here to find validation for the decision to leave your m.? I'll say it again, either way I'm willing to support you, to help you clarify your goals and the best way of acheiving them, but after a while, just expressing what's wrong, what's not enough, and not trying to build on what's right, trying small, different things just doesn't cut it. I know you will tell me you've TRIED - but I am talking about NOW, since you've come back to the boards. I haven't seen any 'experiments' or listing of positive words you've expressed to H.

experiment? we've been together for 16yrs, married for 8, back together after seperation and d talk for 3 years. Experiment? do you think I don't know this man by now? he is who he is...he's not going to change...what he brings to the r is what he brings...it's not enough for me...people like you think that's me being insatiable...I want more out of life than living like a roomate with my h while I raise the kids and take care of the house.

LL, what do you want?

what I wanted was some understanding. I can't get what I want out of this r but am not ready to d yet.
-H2H





#561950 12/10/05 07:43 AM
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what I wanted was some understanding. I can't get what I want out of this r but am not ready to d yet.

Why not? LL you are absolutely not happy in this R and you are no longer at all willing to try to do anymore than you already have to change things (don't worry I do understand that). But why are you not ready to D?

Is it because you have a comfortable roof over your head? No money worries? You are not ready to go out in the big wide world and make your way alone? Yes OK we can all understand that - you have little kids too. You got together with H a long time ago and you were young so really you don't know anything else and you are afraid of what's out there. It's OK to be afraid but you will have to face the fear LL. You transistioned from your original family into your relationship with H without giving yourself a chance to grow up first. I am guessing that is why the R doesn't fit anymore. It served a purpose, it got you out of your childhood home but now you are going to have to face a second transition. Many people do that much earlier than you have LL and work their way through many training relationships before they find the real one.

I am guessing that there is something in your background that didn't allow you to do that LL (did I read in your sitch a long while ago that your childhood was kind of difficult?)

It's an awful realisation to make but you are going to have to face it LL. If you are sticking with this R for now it is for selfish reasons. Realise that LL - you are doing it because you are scared of what is out there and you are cosy in your little cave. You don't even like it when H invades your home - LOL. But that is selfish LL, he is the provider after all, he is out there working hard to make it all happen for you and he is not getting much himself for that is he? It's OK I am not suggesting you should be the one to provide that for him but unless you release him he cannot get it elsewhere either.

If you face up to the fact that that is what you are doing then maybe you can at least ditch the idea that there is any R between you two and treat it solely as a business relationship. Set up separate bedrooms. Don't examine his soiled underwear. Treat him politely and kindly as you would any roommate or guest. Because you ARE getting something out of this LL and he is providing it. I have many times tried to get H to understand that I would prefer us to live slightly more separately than we do now but I am afraid he is the one who is clinging to the idea that we do have an R beyond the business relationship of providing a home for children. I would prefer if I only had to see him when he was in the mood to hang out with us and he didn't even live here the rest of the time - LOL

Look deep inside LL. Why are you still there? Then try to think outside the box of the standard Married R and do something different if you dont want to D.

Fran


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#561951 12/10/05 03:45 PM
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Looks like I hit a nerve, and for that I am sorry, LL. That was not my intent. You keep saying that you are looking for understanding, and I feel there are many of us here who DO understand you - and yet you don't feel it. So can you tell me what it would look like to you when you feel you are being understood?
Quote:

...it's been clear for a long long time that she does have a r with her h...they do spend time together...they do things together and for each other.

[snip]

I'm not happy when he's home for dinner...it's like having an unexpected dinner guest that changes the dynamic and peacful flow of things. Why should I lie and tell him I'm happy he's home?




This is where I got confused. I understood that you wanted to have a R w/ your H. - that you wanted to spend time together and to have sex more frequently. You point out that Sage has a R w/ her H. and that they spend time together. But then you go on to say that you don't actually like H. to come home to dinner - ie, spend time with you (& the kids) . . . IMHO, to get to the sex part, you actually need to spend time together - that is, good times together, feel good about yourselves and your partner, that your partner appreciates you and wants you. But if you radiate that belief that you actually are NOT happy to see him home, how is H. going to understand that you want to have sex with him? I'm confused...
Quote:

so I should just ignore everything and play happy lil housewife and hope that it gets me somewhere?



You can fault me for not having provided an alternative solution to your confronting him with his soiled underwear, but I did NOT say you should "play lil housewife and hope" anything. I was just pointing out that putting someone in the unpleasant position of having to defend himself, particularly with something sensitive such as soiled undies, is not in my opinion helpful IF you are trying to have a good R with them.

So he jerks off - what does that tell you? That he's a normal person, and combined with the fact that you are not having sex, it tells you that there is some barrier(s) to intimacy in your R. My thoughts were along the line of working toward removing some of those barriers, and I thought that lovingly might be a better approach than with a stick. I know for myself that I would feel a whole lot more amorous to someone who told me that they missed me, that touched me lovingly even in passing, than to show me my undies and tell me I need a doctor. Just my 2 cents on that topic....
Quote:

His point of view was to tell me what my problem is...more ridiculous excuses and blame throwing from him.



How different is this from you telling him his soiled undies are not normal, he needs to see a doctor, and telling us he's to blame for all that's wrong in your R.? Is there any room to hear what he might consider are some of the problems or barriers to getting to a happier place?
Quote:

yup that's me the insatiable biatch that he just should have stayed away from. Man are you ever wrong.



Yikes, that's sure putting words in my mouth! I didn't say you were an insatiable bitch, nor that H. should stay away from you. I said that I have yet to hear about something that pleases you. His kisses are wrong, his timing his wrong, his coming to dinner is wrong . . . I was asking you to tell us something that's right, something good enough for you. I know there must be something in maintaining the position you're in - you are there for a reason and I wondered what that might be.
Quote:

people like you think that's me being insatiable...I want more out of life than living like a roomate with my h while I raise the kids and take care of the house.

LL, what do you want?

what I wanted was some understanding. I can't get what I want out of this r but am not ready to d yet.




And what kind of people am I in your view? I don't think you're insatiable; I think you are extremely unhappy and angry. And I don't think that that will help you get what you want in your life. I think wanting more than a roomate is perfectly understandable - I would like the same in my life.

But it seems all my questions are moot - feel free to ignore them. Given your last statement I think that Haphazard's question is an excellent one:
Quote:

Why not? LL you are absolutely not happy in this R and you are no longer at all willing to try to do anymore than you already have to change things (don't worry I do understand that). But why are you not ready to D?



What would it look like when you felt ready to D.? The kids would be older? You'd be financially independent or secure? You'd have found another partner? I'm just guessing wildly in the dark - do you know what it would be like to feel ready?

Hope you're feeling better today.
-H2H

#561952 12/10/05 06:55 PM
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hey Fran,

you make some excellent observations...let me see what I can clarify or admit to not knowing.

Quote:

Why not? LL you are absolutely not happy in this R and you are no longer at all willing to try to do anymore than you already have to change things (don't worry I do understand that). But why are you not ready to D?





Because I've never been a fan of Divorce when there are children involved but more importantly...though I've reached a point where the effort from me now feels like too much effort and not enough reward I'm still holding onto a shred of hope that pigs might just fly after all.

Quote:

You transistioned from your original family into your relationship with H without giving yourself a chance to grow up first.




basically everything you say in the paragraph the above statement is taken from is so true I'm shocked no one else has ever pointed it out. I started dating h when I was 16 years old and though we broke up a few times in the 9 years we were together before marriage he's been it since 16...I did have two bf's before him but given the age I'm not certain they count even if somehow in my mind they do. during the 9 years before m he lived either with his parents or with a friend...I stayed at home....it's more than just transitioning from child to wife but more a problem of while we were dating our time together was limited...he worked a lot and was tired alot (that hasn't changed despite my wishes that it would and his promises that it would) while we weren't married if he was too tired to see me I'd go out with my friends or do my own thing...now that we're married he's tired more and I don't think it's best to spend all my free time with friends just because he's sleeping.

Quote:

I am guessing that there is something in your background that didn't allow you to do that LL (did I read in your sitch a long while ago that your childhood was kind of difficult?)





my childhood like my m was not terrible but it was far from ideal. Strangely a large part of why I stayed with h was despite the fact that he had little time for me the other options weren't great...I could easily find a guy who was interested in me physically but not someone to go get an icecream with. Somehow I always ended up back with h...and even more bizarre is the fact that when we would get back together all the things that were lacking were suddenly there (time, affection him actually awake and attentive) but only for a short while...sort of like h knows how to get a girl hooked and then figures he's got her so he doesn't have to work at it anymore.

Quote:

It's OK I am not suggesting you should be the one to provide that for him but unless you release him he cannot get it elsewhere either.




it's funny becuase I feel like I'm the one who should be released to get what I want. H seems content with the m just the way it is...has gone as far as saying this is the way it's supposed to be "at this stage".

Quote:

If you face up to the fact that that is what you are doing then maybe you can at least ditch the idea that there is any R between you two and treat it solely as a business relationship. Set up separate bedrooms. Don't examine his soiled underwear. Treat him politely and kindly as you would any roommate or guest. Because you ARE getting something out of this LL and he is providing it. I have many times tried to get H to understand that I would prefer us to live slightly more separately than we do now but I am afraid he is the one who is clinging to the idea that we do have an R beyond the business relationship of providing a home for children. I would prefer if I only had to see him when he was in the mood to hang out with us and he didn't even live here the rest of the time -




But I don't feel like it's me that feels that way..I feel like it's him that does. Besides he's clearly said "I'm not going anywhere if you don't like it You leave".

LL

#561953 12/10/05 07:15 PM
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thanks for bearing with me H2H...I do appreciate your help but I don't feel like you do understand where I'm coming from.

Quote:

So can you tell me what it would look like to you when you feel you are being understood?




I'm not certain how to explain how things would look if I felt understood other than by saying that I'd feel more understood if I didn't feel like my words were missenterperted and need to clarify them.

Quote:

This is where I got confused. I understood that you wanted to have a R w/ your H. - that you wanted to spend time together and to have sex more frequently. You point out that Sage has a R w/ her H. and that they spend time together. But then you go on to say that you don't actually like H. to come home to dinner




it's hard to be comfortable and happy with someone being there when they usually aren't or when there being there is so rare that it causes friction. I eat dinner with the kids every night...I know what to expect and so do they...things run smoothly...h shows up for dinner on a rare occassion and expects different things...the kids get upset...he wont hear my explenation of how things usually go as he's got his own idea...my authority over the kids is gone and I've got to bite my tounge watch the battle. So I'm sorry if I don't particularly enjoy h being home for dinner...not to mention the fact that just becuase he's home at dinner time doesn't mean he's going to sit with us...I then have to struggle with keeping the kids eating instead of running off to see what daddy's doing.

So the point is....it didn't start out that I didn't like when he was around...I wanted him around and he wasn't....I got used to him being absent and now on the occassion that he is it's like a guest showing up.

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So he jerks off - what does that tell you?




that he's probably just as misserable as I am but I admit to pleasuring myself h doesn't...he claims it just happens while he's asleep. FYI things could be good around here...us getting along and there's still no sex so I feel like your barking up the wrong tree with the correlation between our emotional r and our s life. I can recall several mini vaca's without the kids where I invited h to join me in jacuzzi bathtubs, massages etc had fun out to dinner laughed and still got nothing unless I begged for it and I'm done begging for it.

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How different is this from you telling him his soiled undies are not normal, he needs to see a doctor, and telling us he's to blame for all that's wrong in your R.? Is there any room to hear what he might consider are some of the problems or barriers to getting to a happier place?





very different. His undies are an actual thing...it's not a fabrication or idea of mine...his explenation that it happens when he's sleeping does concern me...if it's just happening when he's sleeping he could have something wrong with him. Him then claiming that my problems with our r are because of who my friends are? there's no comparision.

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Yikes, that's sure putting words in my mouth! I didn't say you were an insatiable bitch, nor that H. should stay away from you. I said that I have yet to hear about something that pleases you. His kisses are wrong, his timing his wrong, his coming to dinner is wrong . . . I was asking you to tell us something that's right, something good enough for you. I know there must be something in maintaining the position you're in - you are there for a reason and I wondered what that might be.





You didn't use those words but the sentiment was there. as far as what's maintaning my position? because it's not horrible it's just lonely.

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What would it look like when you felt ready to D.? The kids would be older? You'd be financially independent or secure? You'd have found another partner? I'm just guessing wildly in the dark - do you know what it would be like to feel ready?




maybe to all except that I'd have another parnter...that is my fear...I know I'm vulnerable.

I don't really know what it'd feel like to be ready other than I'll know when I know. It will no longer be a question of am I ready...am I certain I want this...I'll know. I don't want to make any move until I'm certain it's for the best.

LL

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