Quote: LL, I'm not sure how to say this so that it will be helpful and not construed as criticism, because honestly LL my intent is to help, not criticize. But I'm a pretty direct person so here goes.
H2H, I'm a direct person myself so don't ever worry about being too blunt.
WHAT exactly are you looking for here? understanding I suppose...posibly the magic bullet...I don't know.
Nowhere did I suggest that you haven't DB'ed enough or well. You did say it seems like I've given up on DBing
Nowhere did I mention that your changes should include your H or be about your M. Nowhere did I even mention your past changes - so whether or not they were plenty is irrelevant to me at this juncture.
make changes, make changes, make changes...there are only so many changes a person can make and still be themselves. There comes a point when all the changes they make still leave an empty feeling within them...a feeling of defeat...a feeling that no matter how many changes they make their spouse just isn't going to participate...then the only change is deciding to leave and that is not an easy change to make...especially when one can suddenly be dubbed a waw.
I simply asked YOU to define what you meant by "something's gotta change" - YOU tell me what that is.
At this point I don't think it'd matter if h painted the sky for me...I'd doubt it would last as I've seen the little attempts too many times before and they don't last...so I guess the only change is to be honest with h and take action.
Do you need me or anyone on the BB to give you an "OK" to leaving your H.? If that's all you want then, "OK, leave your H." But I really don't believe that's what you are after.
Does anyone really want D? maybe I'm hoping someone out there may be able to give me the magic bullet that may give me the ability to finally have the kind of r with h that I've been trying to achive for the past 15 years unsuccessfully. Or yes, helping me to feel that my decision to D (if I do) is OK.
I hear great tiredness in your posts - AND great defensiveness too. You so dismissed my questions about what those changes would look like that you long to make, or more accurately 'poof, appear'. You keep saying you've made all the changes you can . . . Sweetie, I'm not talking about THOSE changes. I am asking you to stop getting defensive, stop bringing up the past changes & efforts and tell us WHAT exactly is going to change and how are you going to do it.
Since I can't change h and his behaviour or lack there of the only change left for me is to leave him.
My guess from your posts is that this change you are talking about is that YOU are going to leave the M. That's what I understand. So okay, if that's the big change - what's it going to look like? How are you going to start implementing that? 6 months ago I let h know I wasn't happy with the way things were going. That I didn't know how long I'd be able to live this way...all he could say is "well that sux" last night I again let him know I'm tired of the excuses (too busy, too tired, too...to spend time with me, not kiss me etc) and I can't do it any more..that I'd like for him to think about how he feels about us. I have yet to hear from him today and it's likely that when I do he'll have nothing to say about our conversation...so on then to the next time I bring it up.
When are you going to DO something about the change you seek?
When I'm certain that there's no other option. When I'm ready to.
Stop seeking to justify your desired change or making it easier by blaming H. & a possible other A.
Why can't I blame h? he makes it pretty clear I'm just the wife. I could of course blame myself for making the mistake of marrying him knowing full well he'd be putting more effort into his work and watching sports than into a r with me...maybe I changed...or maybe I realized the pipe dreams he sold me were a fraud. I do blame myslef for believing him every time he said "next month will be better" or "next year will be better" or "I'm going to start scheduling a light day so I can come home" none of those things ever happend. Not because of an A but because I was a fool and let it be so.
If you're that unhappy, and you feel you've done everything you could do - then stop looking at H. and start planning what YOU, and only YOU can do to get where you want to be.
I don't really want to be a D'd mother of two. But since I can't change my h I guess that's what I've got to do.
Of course you deserve love & attention, we all do. I don't think I insinuated otherwise in my post. But we all know that you don't get much love & attention by casting stones & complaining.
and you don't get it by being lovingly distant, or quiet, or not nagging, or being supportive, or being attentive, you get it if the person wants to give it to you for being you...if you have to fight for it manipulate it..it's not there.
did you ever stop and think that I complain here instead of complaining to H? after all there really isn't time for me to complain to him..he's either not here or he's here but asleep.
Hmmmm, was I blunt enough?
Now, let me ask you again - What changes do you want to see happen? Are you moving? Are you filing? WHAT do you want to see happen in the next 12 months? Would perhaps taking a little time away by yourself help? I know you have small kids, but is there any way to take a long weekend and have some quiet time to think & ease up on yourself?
I'm done...call me a waw in a few years...when I'm ready I'll go...I'll be another statistic and maybe then my h will get it but of course as is typically the case it will be too late. 15 years is enough
Quote: Nowhere did I mention that your changes should include your H or be about your M. Nowhere did I even mention your past changes - so whether or not they were plenty is irrelevant to me at this juncture.
make changes, make changes, make changes...there are only so many changes a person can make and still be themselves. There comes a point when all the changes they make still leave an empty feeling within them...a feeling of defeat...a feeling that no matter how many changes they make their spouse just isn't going to participate...then the only change is deciding to leave and that is not an easy change to make...especially when one can suddenly be dubbed a waw.
I was going to back off a bit to give you time to think. But I just wanted to make one small comment.
NO ONE, including me, is asking you to make any changes. It's fine if you're not ready to answer the questions I posed, but let me be very clear. I AM NOT SUGGESTING YOU MAKE ANY CHANGES. YOU are the one who in a few posts above said "something's gotta change" - so I simply asked you, LL, what's gotta change & how are you going to get there?
Quote: Stop seeking to justify your desired change or making it easier by blaming H. & a possible other A.
Why can't I blame h?
By all means, go ahead and blame H. Let me ask you this: [think Dr. Phil twang] And how's that workin' fer ya?
If somehow it gets you closer to the life you want to live by blaming H. then great. But LL all this blame and resentment is getting you nowhere but down. Girl, I'm not saying it's easy - I am saying that it's not getting you anything you really value.
I'm gonna let the rest sit for a while bec. I fear I am not really helping you and we're going in circles.
NO ONE, including me, is asking you to make any changes. It's fine if you're not ready to answer the questions I posed, but let me be very clear. I AM NOT SUGGESTING YOU MAKE ANY CHANGES. YOU are the one who in a few posts above said "something's gotta change" - so I simply asked you, LL, what's gotta change & how are you going to get there?
what's gotta change is me. I know that I can no longer stay in this r but have been trying to make it work. now the changes that are needed are to make me strong enough to do what needs to be done.
Quote: Stop seeking to justify your desired change or making it easier by blaming H. & a possible other A.
Why can't I blame h?
By all means, go ahead and blame H. Let me ask you this: [think Dr. Phil twang] And how's that workin' fer ya?
If somehow it gets you closer to the life you want to live by blaming H. then great. But LL all this blame and resentment is getting you nowhere but down. Girl, I'm not saying it's easy - I am saying that it's not getting you anything you really value.
I wont be getting what I really value from h...pitty I didn't listen to myself before we married...we weren't happy with eachother (and that's not a changing of history...I recall a convo while we were engaged saying "we are like an old couple now...doing nothing spending little time, what are we going to be like when we are married") then why did I believe we would be happy married? Part of me believed the promises he made...I don't believe them anymore...Part of me thought it wouldn't bother me as much that he's so wrapped up in his business cause I'd be wrapped up in the kids and house...trouble is I want a full life...why should I spend my life waiting for h to be available? where's it getting me? it's getting me to a point where I no longer care if he's available or not...infact I'd rather him not be...it's become easier, the rare occassion that he is available I feel like I'm with a stranger.
I'm gonna let the rest sit for a while bec. I fear I am not really helping you and we're going in circles.
I'm dizzy myself. I did try to talk to h wed night...he of course had the same excuses "that's just the way I am", "it's a busy time of year", it never changes...he had nothing to say and still didn't bother to call at all the next day/evening came home strangly spent some time with the kids and then retreated to the basement. I can't live this way anymore...I'd rather be alone than spend my life with someone who's priorities lye elswhere.
goals? start working out.. finally use those gift cards and buy myself some new clothes use gift card for spa day let hair grow go back to c find out what/how to take action in filing...I can't do this anymore.
you all deserve better. If your spouse is cheating (most epecially if you don't have children yet) there's no reason why you should 1. blame yourself 2. accept it and wait for them to wake up and come back to you
accept the fact that you deserve to be treated with respect and you are not getting it from your spouse at the moment.
if they cheated and are sorry and you are willing to work on the r with them fine
if they cheated and aren't sorry (or are denying it) move on.
you may be surprized to realize that when you suddenly respect yourself enough to expect better for yourself than a person who treats you with such disregard is when they will suddenly want to come back to you. My advice...unless they show that they are willing to face their demons and truly work on the r (not just come home and get back to normal) don't let them.
Who is "you all" ? More importantly, what is Lostlove going to do with the free advice she just doled out?
Quote: If your spouse is cheating (most epecially if you don't have children yet) there's no reason why you should 1. blame yourself 2. accept it and wait for them to wake up and come back to you
I don't think anyone, and it's not in DR that I recall, says you should blame yourself! HOWEVER, I do think it's a VERY good idea to look at your role in establishing, or encouraging a bad dynamic between you and your partner. To see how you also contributed to the situation. And NO , I am not saying that you are to blame or responsible for their choice to have an affair. What I am saying is that when you look within, you very often can find that some roots of the problem in the M. within yourself.
I know, I know . . . you've already done that.... so I go back to my original question - what are YOU going to do with this advice of yours?
Quote: I know, I know . . . you've already done that.... so I go back to my original question - what are YOU going to do with this advice of yours?
If I knew that my h were having an A I'd pack his bags and be rid of him.
I don't KNOW that he's having an A...I simply KNOW that the R is not working...I know that I'm willing but he seems only to be willing to go with the status quo and expects me to be happy with it.
If I didn't have two small children involved I'd not be posting here I'd be packing my bags and leaving. Why should I continue to try when my h doesn't seem to want to.
I didn't try to accept his a and abandonment for him to come home and go right back to the way things were...
As far as blaming myself for his A? never did...sure I was a typical wife who wanted her h home for dinner or to spend some time with his children but H's affair had little to do with me. He can't handle life...he simply went from OW to paxil. Maybe I should go on paxil and then we'll live happily ever after.
Well, I figured I'd take another crack at trying to help. LL, I'm not sure what any of us can say. You seem to immediately reject any attempt at finding out if there's another way to ask H. for what you want, or of getting what you want. Several posts ago you mentioned that you talked to H. (on a Wed. night) and got the same response from him. Did you talk to him in the same old manner, thus getting the same old response? Are you sure there's nothing more to learn in terms of communication?
Anyhoo, I've gone back through your thread and pulled out some quotes that I had questions on:
Quote: Why should I continue to try when my h doesn't seem to want to.
Again, no one is asking you to continue. You are, however, on a site where people come to get help to save their M., so it's natural that we'd chime in with help in that direction. But I'm perfectly willing to give you support to come to terms with your decision to leave the M., if that's what you want.
Quote: That is correct but to be more accurate...A or no A if things don't change..I'm getting ready to walk.
You've mentioned many times that you're getting ready. What do you need to know to move from getting ready to Step 1? What questions do you have about taking that decision? Is it about the procedure? The effect on the kids? Financial security? What information are you missing? There's plenty of folks around here with expertise in all areas.
Quote: H2H: When are you going to DO something about the change you seek?
LL: When I'm certain that there's no other option. When I'm ready to.
Here's another one of those "when I'm ready" responses. But you also mention "no other options"? Are there other options you can think of? What have you been doing to seek confirmation of the availability (or not) of these other options?
Quote: H2H: If you're that unhappy, and you feel you've done everything you could do - then stop looking at H. and start planning what YOU, and only YOU can do to get where you want to be.
LL: I don't really want to be a D'd mother of two. But since I can't change my h I guess that's what I've got to do.
OK, so it sounds like you'd really like to find one of those 'other options'. And I'll even drive you nuts by saying I think it IS possible to change your H., or at least many patterns/dynamics in your M. But for that you have to be willing to do something differently yourself...
Quote: did you ever stop and think that I complain here instead of complaining to H? after all there really isn't time for me to complain to him..he's either not here or he's here but asleep.
I'm perfectly aware of the need to vent - we all come here for a bit of that. But complaining with no action is like trying to nail jello to the wall - a lesson in futility.
Quote: LL: what's gotta change is me. I know that I can no longer stay in this r but have been trying to make it work. now the changes that are needed are to make me strong enough to do what needs to be done.
So what will make you "strong enough to do what needs to be done"? Do you know where/how/when you can obtain that 'strength' you need?
Quote: LL: (goals) - go back to c - find out what/how to take action in filing...I can't do this anymore.
Any progress on these? Are these goals some of the things you need to garner strength?
LL, it really sounds like you need some distance - I'll even call it perspective. . . Again, I understand the frustration & sadness, etc. But how is all this "I can't", "no use", "done that", etc. ever going to help you come to a strong, assured decision of what to do? How can you reject the mere notion that perhaps your communication style with H. leaves room for improvement? Do you really just want to sit and pout?
I really do appreciate the help you're trying to offer. Maybe my frustration is keeping me from hearing what you are trying to say.
I'll do my best to answer your questions without emotions getting in the way
Quote: Several posts ago you mentioned that you talked to H. (on a Wed. night) and got the same response from him. Did you talk to him in the same old manner, thus getting the same old response? Are you sure there's nothing more to learn in terms of communication?
I'm sure there's always something to learn...I'm just not sure what esle there is for me to learn. I did my best to not talk to him in the same old manner...I tried very hard to not be emotional about it in any way...tried to just be matter of fact. It didn't seem to get me to where I wanted to be though.
Quote: Again, no one is asking you to continue. You are, however, on a site where people come to get help to save their M., so it's natural that we'd chime in with help in that direction. But I'm perfectly willing to give you support to come to terms with your decision to leave the M., if that's what you want.
I don't want to end my M, I want to make it better. I'm only willing to end my M in the event that it doesn't get better soon.
Quote: You've mentioned many times that you're getting ready. What do you need to know to move from getting ready to Step 1? What questions do you have about taking that decision? Is it about the procedure? The effect on the kids? Financial security? What information are you missing? There's plenty of folks around here with expertise in all areas.
It's not about procedure it's about knowing for certain that it's the best choice for me.
Quote: Here's another one of those "when I'm ready" responses. But you also mention "no other options"? Are there other options you can think of? What have you been doing to seek confirmation of the availability (or not) of these other options?
"other options" would be to find a way to get the m where I want it.
Quote: OK, so it sounds like you'd really like to find one of those 'other options'. And I'll even drive you nuts by saying I think it IS possible to change your H., or at least many patterns/dynamics in your M. But for that you have to be willing to do something differently yourself...
Like what? I've gotten a life, I've tried to be more positive around h, compliment him, not nag him or make complaints, act as if etc. tried no r talk, tried r talk... I'm at a loss.
Quote: So what will make you "strong enough to do what needs to be done"? Do you know where/how/when you can obtain that 'strength' you need?
need to start taking better care of me... get back to a regular bed time regardless of where h has fallen asleep (just because he's sprawled all over the bed doesn't mean I can't move him over it's my bed too) start working out again...starting is the hard part..always seems to be something else going on. little things. The big thing being strong enough to make the decision for myself as to what I want to do.
Quote:
LL: (goals) - go back to c - find out what/how to take action in filing...I can't do this anymore.
Any progress on these? Are these goals some of the things you need to garner strength?
Yes, and Yes I've got an apt with my c next week. As far as finding out how to file? I figure that's something to look into down the line if it comes to that.
Quote: it really sounds like you need some distance - I'll even call it perspective. . . Again, I understand the frustration & sadness, etc. But how is all this "I can't", "no use", "done that", etc. ever going to help you come to a strong, assured decision of what to do? How can you reject the mere notion that perhaps your communication style with H. leaves room for improvement? Do you really just want to sit and pout?
I'll admit that when I step back things aren't as horrible as I think when I'm allowing myself to get all wrapped up in it...but they still aren't great just subdued. My no use, been there done that attitude is obviously getting me nowhere...it's clearly frustration. As I said I'm sure my communication style could use some work but I do work hard at saying things in the right manner...I'm not perfect but I do try to think before I speak to h. My communication style has improved over the years but I still get stonewalled by h. I've done enough pouting, crying, screaming...I just want to find a solution...I know some but h has to be willing and it doesn't seem like he is.
Oh LL, I think I'm seeing a bit of that LL I 'knew' from your earlier threads!
Quote: Maybe my frustration is keeping me from hearing what you are trying to say.
Bingo! I honestly believe this is true, LL. And I think I know it so well, because I was (and often still am) the same way. When my frustration or anxiety level gets turned up, I seem to stop being able to listen, learn and try.
I've recommended this book just about everywhere on the board, but I'll say it again that I credit reading The Lost Art of Listening with really changing the dynamic between SO & I. Note: we aren't back together, but we actually get along so much better than ever before - we talk everyday & see each other often. So, I'm not a 'success' story in DB terms, but I do feel very successful in having grown our friendship into something wonderful.
Quote: H2H: And I'll even drive you nuts by saying I think it IS possible to change your H., or at least many patterns/dynamics in your M. But for that you have to be willing to do something differently yourself...
LL: Like what? I've gotten a life, I've tried to be more positive around h, compliment him, not nag him or make complaints, act as if etc. tried no r talk, tried r talk... I'm at a loss.
First, I do believe you have done many, many things to improve yourself. But I have also believed all along that your frustration was blocking you from finding new solutions, from listening, and from trying - and I think it's probably written ALL over your attitude & behavior.
So, now that I see a tiny crack in your mood, I'm gonna stick with you. Let's try to find something, anything new to try. I don't have a ready bag o'tricks, LL. But I'm willing to think along with you.
How long has it been since you've kept a solutions journal? Do you remember some of the small things you did before that H. noticed? How did it come about that H. decided to return home? (And before you start telling me it was JUST for the kids, I'm going to ask you to keep with me - what have you got to lose?)
You don't spend much time posting about the every day details. It would really help me see where there's some room for "something different" if you posted about any interactions you do have, okay? Can we make a deal? For one week, just keep posting the day-to-day stuff, keeping the complaints & 'done that' comments to a minimum. Game?
Quote: need to start taking better care of me... get back to a regular bed time regardless of where h has fallen asleep (just because he's sprawled all over the bed doesn't mean I can't move him over it's my bed too) start working out again...starting is the hard part..always seems to be something else going on. little things. The big thing being strong enough to make the decision for myself as to what I want to do.
I agree 100% - You have got to take care of yourself! It's so hard when frustration and other negative emotions seem so prominent, but we only feel WORSE when we don't get enough sleep and proper food & exercise. Make a commitment to yourself, LL. I know starting is a b!tch . . . um, I keep talking about exercising and so far only manage to give my fingers a workout on the keyboard!
Quote: I'll admit that when I step back things aren't as horrible as I think when I'm allowing myself to get all wrapped up in it...but they still aren't great just subdued. My no use, been there done that attitude is obviously getting me nowhere...it's clearly frustration. [SNIP] I've done enough pouting, crying, screaming...I just want to find a solution
I'm glad you made an appt. with the C. and I'm thrilled to see you write that you can see it all slightly differently when you get your frustration out of the way!!!! I see an opening here, LL, and I'm going take it. As I said, I don't have any answers, but if you'll indulge me with a few more details and putting our heads together, I'm sure there is SOMETHING new you can try - and we'll measure results together.
Dear LL, I spent a long time reading your thread. It's not that far off from my sitch. All I can offer is that you need to focus on YOU. It appears that you are very angry and have a right to be so. It's just that experience has taught me that the anger will get you nothing. Anger won't stop your H from cheating...if he is. Anger won't make him change his ways. Anger won't help you focus on your life. Anger won't help your children. I do know that when you can let the anger go and start working a plan for your life, you will start to feel better. No one can tell you when it's time to move on. But you'll know. And if right now you don't know, that's ok. Grab onto something that you DO know. Even if it's the smallest thing like "taking a walk makes me feel better" Then, take a walk and another one and another one. Find what works for you and do it. The anger will start to go away. Trust me. I've got the shortest fuse on the planet and this has been able to help me. It was very scary for me, the control freak, to realize that I didn't have control over what was going on in my life. I went through all the stages of rage, devastation, depression, etc. It was very calming and empowering when I figured out that what I do have control of is myself and how I choose to react to what is happening. ((((LL)))) (I hope that means a hug!) I wish you well and will hold you in my thoughts.
Spitfire23
Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest. Mark Twain
As I said, I don't have any answers, but if you'll indulge me with a few more details and putting our heads together, I'm sure there is SOMETHING new you can try - and we'll measure results together.