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#495979 10/31/05 11:29 AM
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I like this post LL...you've said so much in a few words.

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before seperation/outing of a...h and I did have a discussion (strangly prompted by him) of what makes a good h...h thought that being a good provider was worth 75% keeping the lawn looking good worth 15% or 20% I don't recall what else he gave credit too....Why h was suddenly questioning such things I don't know...but his thoughts do say a lot.




This is straight out of M&V, but I'm sure you know that.

My two cents isn't what you're going to want to hear but I'm gonna give it anyway. Don't ask for his time ('cause that doesn't seem to work well for you and it just leads to frustration). I (personally) would turn up the "appreciation machine" regarding what h DOES do. I would get vocal about it, get totally REAL about it (to paraphrase Dr. Phil), really and truly accept your h for the hard-working, "doing the best I can" h for who he is...because IMHO, as soon as you can totally do that, I suspect you will see a man who will blossom under your appreciation and love. And who will be far more likely to meet you in the middle...

In the meantime, of course, take care of LL...get out some, do things that make you happy, shake off some of the, er, malaise about not getting your needs met...get them met! Just do it yourself until h feels needed, appreciated, loved again.

And before you say "I've tried that, it isn't going to work" let me say this...if you ultimately decide to D h, you will have lost absolutely NOTHING by completely, utterly and thoroughly accepting him...in fact, it you totally took the "that's just who he is and this is who I am" to a natural extreme, you may feel nothing but total acceptance and compassion for him, anyway.

(Note: I'm completely not suggesting that "accept him for who he is" includes infidelity, abuse, etc. I personally don't think that's what we're discussing here so I ask thread readers to bear that in mind with my approach.)

Sage


Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
#495980 10/31/05 02:11 PM
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I'll chime in and say I liked your last posts better too LL.
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in any case...I am looking for ways to make things better or to be certain it can't be made better.



I understood this from your posts both here & the other forum, but I think it's the first time I've actually seen you say this. I'm going to make a suggestion you probably won't like: if you are looking for ways to make things better, then perhaps the first thing I would drop is the "I've already done everything I can" phrase from your vocabulary. Are you willing to keep an open mind, a Beginner's Mind?
Quote:

I come here for help because I don't really want to D...



Good! Then you've come to the right place. As I was trying to tell you on the other thread, this was not obvious from your posts. On this side of the screen what resonnated loud & clear was your resentment, and resignation that you had done all you could. LL, you have to really want to try to improve your R - otherwise I'm guessing the same frustration / resentment is just oozing out of you at home too - whether you're conscious of it or not.
Quote:

I (personally) would turn up the "appreciation machine" regarding what h DOES do.



I agree with Sage on this 100%. What have you got to lose? Are you willing to make a one month experiment here and monitor results? Can you find ways to genuinely praise H. for what he does do, and just zip it (for one month only) about YOUR needs?

I think you're right when you say H. is capable of more - as evidenced by his former ability to have lunch 3x a week. I understand your anger & resentment about this. But I will bring up a point I read about affairs that I think is important to remember - in general they are NOT about the OW, nor about the sex, it is about the way he FEELS ABOUT HIMSELF when he is with her. When I read that I cringed - and let me say that I in no way, no how condone affairs or make excuses for them - but it got me to thinking about what I could do to make him feel good about himself when he's with me. And in my case, it turns out that WOA go a L-O-N-G, long way in getting me what I want.

So, LL, what will it be? Are you willing to try to turn up the appreciation & hold the requests for one month? one week?

Hugs,
-H2H

#495981 10/31/05 03:49 PM
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I know you don't want to hear it and I'm pretty sure you don't believe it either but I've gone more than a week...more than a month...without making any requests..without making any complaints...without grouching, pouting, being frustrated, complimenting him etc. and as I've said before what it get's me is a happy h who's needs are met..but it does nothing for my needs. There are only so many of my own needs that I can meet without h's help..sure I can fill my need for social activity by making plans with friends and going places...to an extent I can fill my need for affection by hugging my children...BUT I can't go out and fill my need for affection/attention from a man and not be doing something wrong.

h went to a friends house yesterday afternoon to watch football...he called @ 9pm to tell me he may or may not come home...I didn't complain...didn't question nag etc. It's now noon and I haven't heard from him since last night at 9pm...pretty sure I wont hear from him until @ 6:30 pm or so tonight when he's on his way home if he even calls...will I complain? nope...I'll be out trick or treating with the kids and then taking them to a local farm to see a pumpkin lighting (they carve and light all the pumpkins that don't sell..could be 100 or more pumpkins all lit up pretty cool)...we'll (the kids and I) then come home probably to find h asleep..will I bother him to help with the kids? NOPE...I'll give them their baths/showers, read them their stories, make sure they brush their teeth, kiss them good night and then go about my business (either read a book, go to bed early or watch some tv).

LL

#495982 10/31/05 03:58 PM
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I should add to that in the past I defended h's lack of time for us plenty.

even to his own family (bil, sil, bils w) they all thought we should have more of a life...I always told them he works hard so we can have the things we do...so we can have them over for cookouts and not have to worry about paying for the food. I appreciate all that but it's not enough and I can't pretend it is anymore. I was proven a fool for trying to believe h was just a workaholic and didn't need a r, affection, attention, I was a fool to have accepted "that's just the way I am" it's not! if it was he wouldn't have needed a r with ow would he?

I appreciate him...I thank him for what he does...I compliment the yard all the time...I pass on compliments from others.

I let him know when he's done or is doing something I like.

I'm not at all saying I'm the perfect wife...I don't think such a thing exists but he'd probably tell you himself that he's got it pretty damn good.

LL

#495983 10/31/05 05:31 PM
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Hmmmm, I guess that would be a no . . . been there/done that.

OK, before I leap into suggesting more stuff you've already done. Let me ask you this: What do you think were the reasons for H. having an A.? Not to dig up old painful crap, but if you can figure out what might have been the cirucumstances, it might lead to figuring out how to make things better.

Another question - what happens when you DO ask H. for help with the kids? What happens when you go up to him and give him a hug? What happens if you wake him up with a big kiss?

Again, I am just trying to help . . .

-H2H

#495984 10/31/05 06:41 PM
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Quote:

Hmmmm, I guess that would be a no . . . been there/done that.

pretty much in some form or another over the years.

OK, before I leap into suggesting more stuff you've already done. Let me ask you this: What do you think were the reasons for H. having an A.?

h's reasoning then? "it" was just never there with us...he had spent some time with her before we got married (but were dating) stopped seeing her because we were getting married but missed that feeling so went back..the just connected...she went to "bat" for him when some other customers were threatening to hire another company over a billing dispute...she had cancer and he never really knew anyone who went through that so it drew him to her...he never really said much about her...other reasons he gave...he was stressed...we had just built a new home and were planning to have another baby (he started seeing her a 2 months after we moved in or rather after I moved us in..he wasn't even available to help with son the morning the movers came and didn't pack or unpack a single box. and 2 months before getting preg with dd)


My thoughts on why h had the A...honestly...because he wanted/needed a connection as much as I did/do but just didn't have it with me...let's face it it's easier to be honest with the person your being deceatful with than it is to be honest with the person you're deceiving...it has been made aware to me now that h was cheating on me before we married always under the guise of I can't see you tonight I need to sleep of course. And of course there's the fact that he addmitted to spending time with her before we married but stopped...an indication that it was more than a friendship then? He never fully came clean about the A then and now refuses to acknowledge that time ever happend...it's just been swept under the carpet.


Not to dig up old painful crap, but if you can figure out what might have been the cirucumstances, it might lead to figuring out how to make things better.

The circumstances that make the most sense to me are that "it" just isn't there with me but there was "something" there with her...it didn't feel like a lie or an alien speaking when h talked like that back then...of course now he doesn't say that but then again he doesn't say much of anything.

Another question - what happens when you DO ask H. for help with the kids?
I get an attitude from him. but for the most part there is no asking..he's just not home...he leaves the house at 6am doesn't return til 6:30pm or later often by the time he's home I've already given dd a bath and put her to bed...and son doesn't go to bed much after that usualy by then h is already aleep on the couch. He got caught in his A by taking ow to her cancer treatment and being seen...I went to post date preg tests alone he couldn't take the time off..granted that was during his a..but "post" A I had a problem with my eye and needed to go into boston (just like her cancer treatment) and he flat out refused to help me with the kids so I could go..I had to call on favors from friends...a bit warped don't ya think?

What happens when you go up to him and give him a hug?

I don't do that often anymore...too much rejection...on the rare occassion that I do his response is unpredictable.

What happens if you wake him up with a big kiss?

He gets pissed that I'm interupting his sleep.

Again, I am just trying to help . . .

I know that and I appreciate it...please try not to read attitude in my posts...I'm just direct.

-H2H




LL

#495985 11/02/05 12:07 PM
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So, now I'm pretty certain that if h is involved with an ow it isn't the ow from the past. Don't ask me how I know as it's not very db.

Since talking to h last week about us and the lack there of..he has been spending more time with the kids..last night when he got home I was going over some math/reading with son instead of h's usual dissapearance he sat with dd and looked over some of her work and quized her on her shapes.

Two months (maybe longer) ago I ordered a new front for our diswasher..it had been dented and the bottom piece had fallen off. I replaced the bottom piece myself but in trying to replace the main front discovered I needed a special screwdriver...asked h to help with it..he said he'd take care of it...yesterday I made another attempt at it thinking perhaps an alan key would do it but no such luck...I made a bold move and left the new door resting in front of the diswasher...h said "is this a hint" sure he went and found the right kind of screwdriver from his toolbox but that was the end of that..I sat and battled with the old rusty screws cutting my hand while he went off and took a shower.

I put dd to bed and when I returned to get son, h had already retreated to the basement.

H has been suggesting taking the kids out to eat on Saturday. I understand that's a good thing as family time is important but it doesn't help the cause.

If we are always going to use the children as a buffer where is it going to get us...plus going to a resteraunt with h and the kids is not going to bring us closer it pushes us apart. H doesn't spend enough time with them to realize and accept that they aren't mini adults..they are kids and it's unlikely that they'll sit perfectly still and upright at a table in a resteraunt for a 1/2 hr waiting for their food...so he gets frustrated with them and I then get frustrated with him.

LL

#495986 11/04/05 11:44 AM
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Quote:

So, now I'm pretty certain that if h is involved with an ow it isn't the ow from the past. Don't ask me how I know as it's not very db.




Ok, so that's good news, right?

Quote:

Since talking to h last week about us and the lack there of..he has been spending more time with the kids..last night when he got home I was going over some math/reading with son instead of h's usual dissapearance he sat with dd and looked over some of her work and quized her on her shapes.




This is a great positive, no? Just in case you're going to say "but he's spending time with the kids, not me" let me say "babysteps...". Let him get comfortable, ok?

Quote:

Two months (maybe longer) ago I ordered a new front for our diswasher..it had been dented and the bottom piece had fallen off. I replaced the bottom piece myself but in trying to replace the main front discovered I needed a special screwdriver...asked h to help with it..he said he'd take care of it...yesterday I made another attempt at it thinking perhaps an alan key would do it but no such luck...I made a bold move and left the new door resting in front of the diswasher...h said "is this a hint" sure he went and found the right kind of screwdriver from his toolbox but that was the end of that..I sat and battled with the old rusty screws cutting my hand while he went off and took a shower.




OK, I know this is disappointing for you but I can guess at a thousand reasons why h went off and took a shower instead of helping...I'm not excusing the 2 month lag (been there, done that) but maybe the timing was really bad for fixing it THAT night? (workday, etc?) And, the whole "hint" thing would have blown up squarely in my face if I had tried that ... too P/A and vague for my h to respond to -- it would have ensured that there was no way he would help for a good long time.

What if you had asked him (in proper M&V terminology?) for his help? "Would you put the front part on the dishwasher tonight?". Or, "I'm excited that you said you'd take care of the dishwasher. Would you do it this weekend?"

I know it sounds like a lot of work to figure out HOW to ask but it may go a long way towards staving off some resentment and discontent.

Quote:

H has been suggesting taking the kids out to eat on Saturday. I understand that's a good thing as family time is important but it doesn't help the cause.

If we are always going to use the children as a buffer where is it going to get us...plus going to a resteraunt with h and the kids is not going to bring us closer it pushes us apart. H doesn't spend enough time with them to realize and accept that they aren't mini adults..they are kids and it's unlikely that they'll sit perfectly still and upright at a table in a resteraunt for a 1/2 hr waiting for their food...so he gets frustrated with them and I then get frustrated with him.




I suspect that h will continue to use the kids as a go-between until he feels comfortable again in his R with you...what can YOU do to expedite him feeling more comfortable, LL? (Yah, we could get frustrated that he's not coming around sooner, not feeling comfortable, etc, but all that's out of our control, right?). Do you think YOU'D feel comfortable if the tables were turned?

But, I understand what you're saying re. the kids and dinner since it seems to breed frustration. Is a babysitter available? Could you suggest doing something all together in the afternoon and then the two of you going out to dinner (where, I'm seriously hoping there will be no R talk! )

Seems to me (you probably don't want to hear this) that h IS making some efforts in response to your talk last week...isn't he?

Sage


Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
#495987 11/04/05 03:20 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

So, now I'm pretty certain that if h is involved with an ow it isn't the ow from the past. Don't ask me how I know as it's not very db.




Ok, so that's good news, right?

it's both good and bad...bad because it doesn't explain the strange beh and signs from h..and also because if there is someone new then ow wasn't that special and h's a serial cheater. Good because I at least know it's not her.

Quote:

Since talking to h last week about us and the lack there of..he has been spending more time with the kids..last night when he got home I was going over some math/reading with son instead of h's usual dissapearance he sat with dd and looked over some of her work and quized her on her shapes.




This is a great positive, no? Just in case you're going to say "but he's spending time with the kids, not me" let me say "babysteps...". Let him get comfortable, ok?

he's been home for 3 years now...he's comfortable enough to do as he pleases...I think the problem is not that he's uncomfortable it's that he's gotten too comfortable. Plus it certainly seems to enhance my feelings that he only came home for the "family" and the "kids" now doesn't it.

Quote:

Two months (maybe longer) ago I ordered a new front for our diswasher..it had been dented and the bottom piece had fallen off. I replaced the bottom piece myself but in trying to replace the main front discovered I needed a special screwdriver...asked h to help with it..he said he'd take care of it...yesterday I made another attempt at it thinking perhaps an alan key would do it but no such luck...I made a bold move and left the new door resting in front of the diswasher...h said "is this a hint" sure he went and found the right kind of screwdriver from his toolbox but that was the end of that..I sat and battled with the old rusty screws cutting my hand while he went off and took a shower.




OK, I know this is disappointing for you but I can guess at a thousand reasons why h went off and took a shower instead of helping...I'm not excusing the 2 month lag (been there, done that) but maybe the timing was really bad for fixing it THAT night? (workday, etc?)

it's never a good time that's the problem...I can ask..wait...ask again and eventually I have to end up doing it myself.

And, the whole "hint" thing would have blown up squarely in my face if I had tried that ... too P/A and vague for my h to respond to -- it would have ensured that there was no way he would help for a good long time.

well it worked for me...though h didn't do the job he at least got me the tool to do the job with.

What if you had asked him (in proper M&V terminology?) for his help? "Would you put the front part on the dishwasher tonight?". Or, "I'm excited that you said you'd take care of the dishwasher. Would you do it this weekend?"

two months would have gone by..I'd try to do it myself again....I'd leave it there waiting for him and I'd still end up the one doing it.

I know it sounds like a lot of work to figure out HOW to ask but it may go a long way towards staving off some resentment and discontent.

it's not a lot of work...it just doesn't work.

Quote:

H has been suggesting taking the kids out to eat on Saturday. I understand that's a good thing as family time is important but it doesn't help the cause.

If we are always going to use the children as a buffer where is it going to get us...plus going to a resteraunt with h and the kids is not going to bring us closer it pushes us apart. H doesn't spend enough time with them to realize and accept that they aren't mini adults..they are kids and it's unlikely that they'll sit perfectly still and upright at a table in a resteraunt for a 1/2 hr waiting for their food...so he gets frustrated with them and I then get frustrated with him.




I suspect that h will continue to use the kids as a go-between until he feels comfortable again in his R with you...what can YOU do to expedite him feeling more comfortable, LL? (Yah, we could get frustrated that he's not coming around sooner, not feeling comfortable, etc, but all that's out of our control, right?). Do you think YOU'D feel comfortable if the tables were turned?

I wouldn't have let things get to the point they are...I'm not the one who's backed away.

But, I understand what you're saying re. the kids and dinner since it seems to breed frustration. Is a babysitter available? Could you suggest doing something all together in the afternoon and then the two of you going out to dinner (where, I'm seriously hoping there will be no R talk! )

I'm tired of making the suggestions...plus don't you realize that by making that request I'd be taking control away from him...shooting down HIS plans.

Seems to me (you probably don't want to hear this) that h IS making some efforts in response to your talk last week...isn't he?

Seems to me (and I know you don't want to hear this) that the only effort h is making in response to my talk with him last week is to reinforce my feelings that he's not here for a r with me...he's here for the kids.

Sage




LL

#495988 11/09/05 06:25 PM
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if you know that you need xy and z to feel loved by your partner and they give you abc and expect you to be happy with it even though they know you need xyz what can you do?

when getting those needs met elsewhere is counterproductive (what good would it do my m to spend more social time with friends/family or find other people to fill my need for physical affection)

pretend that ab and c are enough? get put on medication to dull my desire for xyz (become a stepford wife, content that my h's needs are met and oblivious or accepting of the fact that my basic needs aren't)

continue to try and hear/feel xyz when I get abc (in other words deny my true feelings in hopes that they'll go away or some day I'll actually get xyz from an abc man)

leave and face not only not getting xyz needs met but also not having abc.

waiste more time trying to figure out why h so refuses to try xyz. (xyz is nothing kinky...just some qt and a little pa)

why am I continously made to feel like the villian for not being satisfied with abc. Abc is not enough and I shouldn't have to pretend it is.

would you hear a babies cry for food but choose to change their diaper instead becasue that's the way you show love?

If you expect your lawn to grow nice and green you've got to fertalize it and water it, not spray grape juice on it daily and sprinkle gumdrops on it twice a year...why would you think a relationship could grow healthy and strong without the things it needs.

LL

xyz= quality time (as little as an hour a night would be a great start), physical affection (a bit more than a peck hello and goodbye would probably make me melt at this point)

abc= pay the bills, cut the lawn

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