My story pretty much mirrors Steve's in Chapter 9 of DR. 6 weeks ago, W told me she didn't love me anymore. I did all the wrong things with sadness/crying/pleading. We went to counseling but she decided that we should prepare for a trial separation after the holidays so that's where we are.
In the meantime, I've continue to help more around the house and with the kids which I've been doing since BD but am otherwise onto The Last Resort over the past week and doing a decent job so far. However, our relationship is actually better now than it was before BD including having more sex in the past 6 weeks than we've had in the past several years. We're both treating it as solely physical, no cuddling after, very little, if any, kissing. Just raw sex, which she said she's ok with but I think we both find a bit confusing as we continue on the path to separation. Should I not be doing this?
H: 53 W: 42 3 children
Last edited by DnJ; 11/23/2403:11 PM. Reason: Corrected BD (Bomb Drop)
1. Men who are desperately trying to avoid divorce should not have sex and should definitely not initiate sex. It makes you come across as incredibly weak, because she sees a man whose heart she is breaking - still prepared to give her whatever she wants. She would actually respect you more if you had some self respect. Imagine roles reversed - you had decided to divorce your wife, and she kept trying to initiate sex with you - would it make her seem more attractive, or desperate/weak/low value?
2. You’ll come across a term around these parts called cake-eating. It essentially means someone being rewarded. She’s divorcing you, and you’re rewarding her. It’s like giving a puppy a treat when they piss on the carpet. The gentle-gentle approach to avoiding divorce doesn’t work, because they get to navigate it without losing anything. Why would she re-consider her divorce when she can continue with it, knowing she can still get sex any time? Don’t abstain to punish her because that’s manipulative - but don’t reward what she’s doing.
3. You need to get an STD test. I’m not a veteran here, but I’ve been around for a while. More than 95% of the time in situations like yours, she is having an affair (either emotional or physical). I’ve said this to newcomers before, and they say “I’m sure I’m in the 5% because she just wouldn’t do that, you don’t know my wife like I do.” Six months later, they re-appear saying there had been an affair all along. Your wife deserves zero trust right now. Look after your health, get an STD test ASAP, and have protection available if you think there’s the smallest possibility you might cave in to sex with her again.
Once your registration to the site has been completed you can post and start a thread. Please have only one thread active at a time (per forum); it keeps your situation organized and is easier for those following along and posting to you. There are a few forums which help categorize posters’ situations.
When your thread reaches 100 posts, it will be time for you to start a new thread. It is a good idea to link your old thread to your new one, and even link the new one back to the previous one. That makes it easier for the folks following your story. (There is a help thread on linking in the sticky threads at the top section of the forum’s display.) A moderator will “close” your full thread which prevents further posting to it. It is still available to read.
Post in small frequent replies on your thread. Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity can be very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Post on other people’s thread to give support.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Yeah I would echo the previous statements. There is most likely an affair, its rare that someone can spend so many years with you, suddenly tell you they don't love you and then ask for a separation. A separation is almost always a way for them to have guilt free sex with a new person and start a relationship while keeping the comforts of the marriage. You have to make her feel she can lose you forever because she will not immediately feel that and since you are initiating sex, the last thing she'll think you'll do is to leave the marriage and her forever. Do not sleep in the same bed, do not let her have your master bedroom, she has proverbial shat on that bed. All of the benefits of a healthy marriage you should not offer her, she is essentially now a stranger and you don't sleep with strangers and they don't get to share your bed. Do not let her have her cake, she needs to have consequences from her actions through your indifference towards her.
I along with others here made many of the same mistakes that you did so if our mistakes can be a guide or lesson to you then at least our decisions are not in vein.
Get a good therapist for yourself immediately, you want someone who you can open up to that will be a professional and from the outside looking in. Do not share your feelings or your thoughts with your W, this will backfire on you and she will find any small detail or behavior and build up resentment and shift blame on your character to justify her actions. Separate all of your finances, people in this lost state of mind will completely disregard financial consideration or marital budgets. Keep an eye on her spending in any way that you can should you need the information for divorce, get your own legal counsel and have an initial consultation, you can still open a divorce petition and have room for reconciliation should you see shes willing and honest about it. You need to take control of everything in your life that pertains to you, do not let her make decisions for you, your home, your budget your kids if you have any, she has lost the right to be an equal decision making partner in your home and marriage.
I know all this sounds harsh but if you do everything right no matter what the outcome, you will be ready for whatever decision you might end up making. Also do not drink or smoke or take any substances, it will cloud your mind and make you use your focus, it will also put you on an emotional rollercoaster.
Find a way to take as many healthy supplements as you can, eat better, go to the gym, go for walks, socialize with friends. Do this for your physical health, but 10x more for your mental health as you are going to have to be mentally strong and physically healthy on this path. For me going out with people i knew or had lost touch with every weekend for a coffee was the best therapy for me, never talking about my situation but just relearning how to socialize. This will help you tremendously.
Good luck and sorry you find yourself in this situation.
Treat your wife like an acquaintance. Smile and be pleasant . Keep everything brief and to the point . One of the hardest challenges is to over come the urge to talk with your spouse about what is happening . Do not engage . It will feel really wrong . She will try to bait you . Right now her bait is sex . Keeping you just close enough . Cut out sex completely. You deserve to sleep with someone who is invested in your marriage not someone planning the great exit .
It’s nice to see catman brought up alcohol and other substances . I hadn’t seen that mentioned when I first posted . But realized quickly not to have a few drinks . The next day it caused utter turmoil for myself emotionally . I would take this suggestion strongly.
Building on the affair topic . There is most likely someone else . They are very good at hiding these affairs whether physical or emotional. They will deny and hide it to the point you think to yourself that you may be crazy for even thinking it . Protect yourself financially. The amount of money they will burn through funding their chaos can be insane .
We all stumble at times during this process . Keep posting . This is a safe space for some good feedback and once in awhile a kick in the right direction .
I don't have much to add other than an additional sorry that you find yourself hear. Focus on taking care of yourself first at this point and then your kids. You can't be your best for them if you AREN'T at your best. They need you to be at your best. Your wife has fired you as her husband. As Kind suggests, avoid doing this that reward her behavior for now. Sandi's rules (referenced in the welcome post DnJ shared) are an excellnt quick reference guide to what you should/shouldn't be doing at this point. I recognize it is hard to not take actions (like having sex) that you want to take. You have to push past that and trust what the collective experience on this board reflects on situations like ours.
Also, the odds that your relationship is truly better right now are, unfortunately, very slim. Your spouse is likely bobbling in uncertainty about what she wants and following her impulses about what feels good/right in the moment. As other suggest, this can very likely involve an affair of some sort, even if only an emotional one at this point. You can't get caught up in that for now. It will consume your thinking, stress you out, and wear you down at a time when, again, you need to be doing what it takes to get your well-being as close to 100% as possible.
In my experience, while many of us here can be direct, it is with very good intent to help you, try to guide you to avoid mistakes we've seen or made, and push back on the biases we can often have at the point you're at (to want to make the marriage work at all cost which is needy and unaatractive).
Thanks everyone for the support, this really is helpful. I uploaded the rules of detachment to NotebookLM (Googles new AI tool which is really cool if you haven't played around with it) and asked it how to respond to specific texts from W and it's advice is really impressive. For example, she texted me, "I don't know if it's the steroids [she's fighting an allergy], but I'm really emotional today, I mean more than usual."
It gave me a bunch of bullet points based on the rules of detachment, and then recommended either not responding or if I must then, "I hope your day gets better.". That response really irked her.
Welcome to the boards. I am sorry the rug has been pulled out from under you. Bomb drop is a most apt name; for it’s such a shock to the LBS.
However, your W has likely been planning things for a while. It is important for you to pull back. Way back! No pressure! Begging, pleading, pressure, all just pushes a leaving spouse out the door quicker.
W has to feel the loss before she might decided to alter her course.
How long have you two been married? First marriage for both? Age of kids? It helps in tailoring suggestions to you and your situation better.
I see you are reading DR. Excellent! Do keep it, this site, DB strategies and techniques, and your DBing efforts/reasons, to yourself. All that resource is for you, not the opposing team. And W is presently no longer on team Josh. That may change, or it may not. Time will tell.
Divorce busting is very counterintuitive in the beginning. It will likely feel wrong. It will likely go against your default ideas. Makes sense, as you’ve likely never been in such a situation as you find yourself in.
The Last Resort Technique is much like a 180, just for when the situation is more extreme. Our spouse has made it clear, in no uncertain terms that they want a divorce; there is an affair; you and your spouse are physically separated; you are living separated with very little contact; they’ve filed for divorce; etc.
Removed all pressure. Focus on you and the kids. Go dim. Be kind and cordial. Be vague. Be roommate-like.
Find detachment. It is the single best thing you can do for yourself.
Originally Posted by JoshSco
New here so maybe not try and use acronyms. By DB, I meant dropped bomb but maybe it's BD for bomb drop? Anyway, u prob get the gist.
Here is a link to many of the abbreviations used around here:
We went to counseling but she decided that we should prepare for a trial separation after the holidays so that's where we are.
MC usually does not yield much success at this point. Your W is wanting out, and has been planning it for a while. The level and realism of her plan may be lacking (or not), yet that matters not. W is operating more on feelings than logic and reason. Appealing to her with logic and reason will backfire. You have to let her burn through her feelings and find her way. To feel the loss, as I mentioned before.
The idea, at some future point, W realizes: “Hey, Josh hasn’t been bugging me for quite some time and I’m still upset. Hmmm, perhaps he isn’t the cause.” With some good fortune, she will look inward.
During this time, you get your self together. Become Josh2.0. The best version of yourself. A man only a fool would leave.
Own your part of the marital strife. Fix your part! And that is through growing and evolving yourself.
You only control three things in life. Your thoughts, your actions, and your reactions. You cannot control, fix, or alter W - or anyone else. Only yourself!
However, you can and do influence by your actions or inactions.
An in-house separation is tough stuff. A few logistics if/when your situation comes to it:
Remain in the master bedroom. Let W leave. She can sleep in the spare room. You remain in MBR.
Let her own the separation. As you stated, “she decided that we should prepare for a trial separation after the holidays”. You don’t want it. So don’t actively help toward that end. You don’t stand in her way, nor place boulders upon her path; yet you do not pave it in gold either. Her decision - let her do the heavy-lifting.
Be patient. Realize, doing nothing is doing something.
Focus on you. GAL. Live and love your life!
Remember, LRT is a 180 and letting go to allow her to calm and find feelings that are more helpful to your goals. Loss, shame, guilt, remorse, regret, and such. Right now she is angry, upset, excited for a new and better future, and so on. You cannot control that. You got to let her burn her way through it.
Unfortunately, lots of damage occurs during BD, the fallout/aftermath, and whatever path is taken. The level of destruction and further collateral damages can be significant. Focusing on yourself helps keep your emotional and mental health in a better place. It’s not that you are ignoring or will ignore things, just finding detachment for your DB efforts.
There is no guarantee that DB will save your marriage. However, I can guarantee that you will get out what you put in! DB will save you! Saving your marriage is actually a bonus.
Originally Posted by JoshSco
In the meantime, I've continue to help more around the house and with the kids which I've been doing since BD but am otherwise onto The Last Resort over the past week and doing a decent job so far.
Good.
Do make changes - for you! Not in some attempt to win W back. She will see right through such manipulation and shallowness.
Your changes need to be for your reasons! That way those positive changes have a much better probability of becoming permanent.
W will not, for a good long while not belief your sincerity of changes. Don’t fret, keep to your path and keep moving forward. It will take time. Much more time than you want it to. Dig for patience.
You do have the gift of time. Use it wisely.
Originally Posted by JoshSco
However, our relationship is actually better now than it was before BD including having more sex in the past 6 weeks than we've had in the past several years. We're both treating it as solely physical, no cuddling after, very little, if any, kissing. Just raw sex, which she said she's ok with but I think we both find a bit confusing as we continue on the path to separation. Should I not be doing this?
I’d recommend no sex. W has stated she wants out. Let her feel what that is.
Also, the elephant in the room. Affairs.
Oh my, it is staggering how common affairs are. In fact, I cannot recall a situation in which there was no affair.
Physical affairs (PA) or emotional affairs (EA) are so commonplace. Realize an affair is a symptom of a deep personal problem with the cheating person - not you!!
Affairs are a band-aid. An illicit relationship built upon lies and deceit. Built upon an unstable foundation akin to sand. It takes tremendous energies to maintain such a relationship and it cannot be built very high or well.
Affairs are almost always destine to fail. Both people are using the other. Often unknowingly and unwittingly in some misguided, emotionally driven, unhealthy effort to overcome/heal some internal hurt/flaw. The affair partner is actually chosen to grow up from, to use, and to leave. Like I said, chosen unknowingly and unwittingly.
Some rare affairs do grow and the couple remains. The vast majority of cases, the cheating spouse continues onto AP2, AP3, …APx. Until they face and fix whatever internal flaw it is their are trying to fix.
Remember what/who you can control. Stay clear of an affair. Getting angry, demanding she stops, just pushes them together more. It makes it them against the world.
You don’t need to condone such either. Strict boundaries against disrespect and knowing/living/standing for one’s self worth is very attractive.
At any rate, affair (or not) is at the moment unconfirmed.
I bring this up as rationale to stop allowing the cake eating. W wants out. Let her. No sex.
And, if she is straying you don’t need a STD.
It’s a big 180. And W is likely to express a lot of emotions. As well as, lash out, blame, gaslight, project. Remember, you are doing this for you. Not a manipulation. It’s for your health - mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual health.
Originally Posted by JoshSco
I uploaded the rules of detachment to NotebookLM (Googles new AI tool which is really cool if you haven't played around with it) and asked it how to respond to specific texts from W and it's advice is really impressive. For example, she texted me, "I don't know if it's the steroids [she's fighting an allergy], but I'm really emotional today, I mean more than usual."
It gave me a bunch of bullet points based on the rules of detachment, and then recommended either not responding or if I must then, "I hope your day gets better.". That response really irked her.
Validating is a difficult skill to learn and apply, especially in a situation of serious martial discourse. I’d not follow an AI algorithm. Highly unlikely it’s programming will “think” in a divorce busting manner or with those goals. AI is after general and mass market responses.
Read the validating thread. Read about detachment. Find and learn your way. Grow, evolve.
LRT, 180, you need to put a halt to, and alter the, relationship dynamics that got you here.
Validate her feelings. That is not condoning her actions, just seeing her feelings as real. For they are, to her. Again, if she is acting upon her feelings, which she likely is, poor decisions are usually made. Not your job to prevent that, or fix that.
Decisions/actions based upon emotions lead to regret.
That includes for you. Part of validating and responding is deciding what to respond to. Give yourself 24-48 hours before responding. This allows your feelings to settle, and for you to craft and deliver a response from a place of logic and reason rather than react emotionally.
The above text from W, I’d have likely remain silent. She stated no question, so there was nothing to answer. No need for you to respond. It also allows to see if she is going to prompt further.
If you listen, W will likely blurt out all kinds of stuff.
Was her text just out of the blue? Did you see her anytime before the text? Did you know her emotional state somewhat? Crying, upset, mad?
It’s tricky. You can validate, wish her a better day, and she will lash out. Sometimes that’s why she is texting you. To find a reason to get/be mad. You did well, remained calm and went about your day.
Keep moving forward.
I look forward to conversing with you.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hey, JoshSco. I'm not familiar with Perel, so I just read up on her. It's hard to tell how credible her work is from a quick skim. That said, trying to figure out why your W sent you these podcasts or her general motivations right now is what you may have heard referred to in this forum as going down a "cheeseless tunnel." Imagine yourself running around like a rat in a maze where there may be no reward to find. It may be that she's trying to take the temperature of your relationship, probably to make sure she's still got you on a short leash. Or, it may be that she's hoping to use Perel's approach as a means to excuse her behavior, reconcile, or who knows what.
As you may guess by now, this wouldn't be something I'd suggest you do, at least for now, if you don't mind. Listen to the podcast if you'd like...or don't. If you do, see what you can take away for yourself to put into practice. What do you hear that helps YOU over the marriage for now? It is just too soon (based on my personal experience and from reading tons of similar situations on this board) to expect some kind of epiphany on her part around reconciliation.
Also, you want to make yourself as much of a mystery to her as possible for now. If she asks what you thought about the podcasts, keep your answers as brief as possible. Perhaps say "I hope to get to that at some point," or "I'm still processing what I heard". The fewer words (and the more they don't promote more conversation for now) the better.
Research Perel if you'd like. See what reviews on her reflect. What are the pros and cons of her approach? If you know any therapists, ask for their opinion or consult one through an employee assistant program you may have at work. My bottom line recommendation is that, if you do it, do it for your self-improvement.
Thanks D, NotebookLM is a little different as it only considers the sources you load into it. Below is its full response based on the following prompt I asked it: How do I respond to the following text from someone I am trying to detach from: "It may be the meds but I'm incredibly emotional today (I mean moreso than usual.)"
Responding With Detachment
The sources provide helpful advice on how to respond to someone you are trying to detach from, particularly when they are attempting to elicit an emotional response. The most important point to remember is to maintain emotional boundaries and avoid getting drawn back into the cycle of dependence.
The text you received is a clear example of how someone might try to engage your emotions. By stating they are "incredibly emotional" and "more so than usual," the person is hoping to evoke sympathy or concern.
Falling back into old patterns of fixing, rescuing, or enabling will only perpetuate the unhealthy dynamic. Detachment requires you to prioritize your well-being and resist the urge to control or change the other person's emotions. Here are some possible responses that prioritize detachment:
Acknowledge their statement without engaging emotionally: "I hear that you're having a tough day." This validates their feelings without taking on responsibility for them.
Redirect the conversation: "I hope you find some ways to feel better. I'm busy right now." This establishes a boundary and avoids getting pulled into a lengthy discussion.
Limit your interaction: If you feel overwhelmed, it's okay to disengage entirely. You don't owe anyone an explanation for prioritizing your own emotional health. Remember, detachment is a process. It takes time and effort to break free from unhealthy patterns of relating. Be patient with yourself and continue to work on establishing and maintaining healthy boundaries. The sources emphasize that you deserve healthy relationships, and detachment can be a path toward achieving that.
Also, one of the cooler things NotebookLM does is create a two-person podcast on anything you upload to it. I uploaded 3 months of texts between my W and I and it produced a 25 minute podcast analyzing our relationship. It was pretty wild.
Josh, I am really happy you have joined community here. I hope we can be kind and supportive and that you come out the other side strong and well.
My W has sent me lots of links and memes etc of various relationship stuff. Mostly, I take it with a grain of salt and don’t try to figure out what she is meaning when she sends them. It could mean any of a million things depending on her emotional state at the time.
I really like perel. I think she in insightful and can be helpful when couples want to connect and form healthy R.
I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, except this:
Don't mistake your relationship being better now as a sign she is changing her mind on the separation. When my XW bombdropped me, i practiced the last resort techniques, and for about 6 weeks, aside from not having sex, our relationship was awesome. When she had the next divorce conversation, I was a bit surprised, and told her things have been good, she's been happier, etc. That's when she said something along the lines of 'yeah, i'm happy now because this weight's been lifted off my shoulders and we're finally moving towards divorce.'
As others have said, try to refrain from having sex with her.
Married: 15yrs Ages: Me 49, W 44 Kids: S12 BD: around 4/14
Here's the latest. I know everyone said to refrain from sex but part of having quite a bit of it the last month or so is that it's part of my 180. She's always wanted more but my libido sucked. I went on testosterone replacement therapy right when we first started couple's therapy and before she decided we needed to separate and I feel 25 years younger in just about all facets of life: libido, energy, mental health, less inflammation, making gains at the gym that I haven't in years. Pretty amazing and wish I had gone on it when she first suggested it a year ago. Other than the sex though, I think I've been doing a good job disconnecting and we're moving forward with the apartment rental which we will rotate using on a weekly basis while our 3 daughters stay at the house as well as the separation mediator to help us figure out the expenses during the 3-month trial separation (and whatever comes after that). I just got the email below and wondering if/how I should respond. Thanks as usual for all the great support!
From W:
So how we got here is so nuanced, which I guess in any relationship it is. Sometimes I don't even know where to start. So many layers, so many reasons. Like anything, it's hardly black and white, or one reason specifically, it's a multitude. Not that that will give any clarity for you but hopefully this can allow you to understand more of the scope of where I'm coming from. When we married you were a stable and loving presence in my life and for that I will always be grateful. I was a mess when we met. I hadn't really been on my own, had no idea who I was. You have always been a man who honors commitment and is extremely loyal and created a safe haven. I've always respected you so much for that. Despite my apprehensions, I was also hopeful that it would get better for both of us. For the beginning years of our kids, you were present, helpful, stable, loving. Somewhere around when the kids became more independent though it shifted especially the last few years. You sat in the basement and removed yourself most nights. You helped with rides and sports but were rarely present otherwise. We rarely hung out and I felt disconnected and emotionally neglected. In addition to handling my own emotions I had to handle all of the girls as well. On top of that for most of our marriage the drinking was an issue. Countless times I expressed how uncomfortable it made me, how triggering it was. You disregarded me most times, often placing the blame back on me....it's my issue, my problems with my dad. Again leaving me emotionally abandoned and dealing with past trauma on my own. It almost felt like a form of emotional abuse. Blame the victim for their feelings. You wouldn't go to therapy, everything was my issue, not yours. When I got to the point 8 years ago that was a huge part of it. I knew I didn't love you (or love you anymore) and that that emotional abandonment was a huge part of it. I learned to take care of the kids myself, especially emotionally as well as physically. To some degree I wonder how much I ever felt that emotionally connected, given a huge part of our relationship in the beginning involved alcohol. All of these doubts and misgivings were coming to fruition. I I had to do a huge amount of soul searching for how I really felt and what I needed. All the while I was doing this solo. When you traveled it was a source of relief because it was one less persons emotions to handle. You either grow and evolve with someone in a marriage or you don't. You've always maintained (or previously did) that you had already gone through that growth. Maybe the age was a factor? However, the truth is you never stop growing. I just didn't have anyone to emotionally or spiritually grow with.
I've been growing and evolving for a very long time on my own and I've come to the point where I can't go back. I've compartmentalized for 8 years learning to be self-sufficient and ride this journey solo. For me now the only option is forward. My heart has been so broken for so long that it has it's learning to heal on its own (and I have a lot more healing to do). To go back is denying how far I've come and what I really need for myself in the future. Lately you've been incredible, you've stepped up as dad in so many ways. You tried to fix our marriage. You've been an incredible partner with kids, it's like a 180 and they notice too. We will always be partners to some degree because we are co-parents. I don't regret any of the 15 years married we shared. We have 3 beautiful amazing girls. (Seriously, I think we're doing an darn good job) We balance them well. We've had incredible times together, creating amazing memories (which we will continue to do!). Lately I feel incredibly blessed that I have you as a co-parent to be their dad. We are so lucky. Truth is, this is an absolutely terrifying next chapter but I've denied myself and my feelings for far too long. Drumming up the courage for this has been taking everything of me but I know it's right. Things will change, and it will be hard for all of us but I know it will be okay. When we met one of the things you always said was you loved my optimism but the truth is you bring just as much. I don't know if this even covers all of everything that I've been feeling but this is just some of everything I've been processing.
Here are some things I would like to say but I'm not sure they are helpful:
1) some type of validation of her feelings 2) telling her that I don't agree with calling it quits as I think our relationship going forward is likely to be a lot better than it ever been has but I can only control me so I've learned to accept it and am moving on
The entire thing is about her. Her feelings, her thoughts, what she wants, what she needs, etc, etc. The only times she really mentions you is telling you what you did wrong.
Not one time did she say anything about your wants or needs, what's best for the children, etc.
Obviously all this makes sense, since she's writing it from her point of view, and trying to explain where she's at.
The point I"m trying to make is, in all her years of 'soul searching', 'healing', etc, did it ever cross her mind to say "what can I do to improve/save our marriage?" From what I just read, the answer is 'no'. She also stated that she hasn't loved you for the last 8 years. So that means for 8 years, she's been emotionally unavailable, and probably putting little effort into the marriage.
Obviously you've made mistakes and you're not perfect. Nobody is. But you've essentially been living in a lie for a long time. The person you thought you were with didn't exist. For 8 years she's been planning an exit.
How should you reply? I don't know. The experts here can provide help with that. I'd just recommend not to get into a 'back and forth' with her about who did what. I also wouldn't apologize for your past mistakes. I'm sure you already did that, and it served no purpose. If it were me, I'd probably just write something like "thank you for the detailed explanation".
Married: 15yrs Ages: Me 49, W 44 Kids: S12 BD: around 4/14
Here are some things I would like to say but I'm not sure they are helpful:
1) some type of validation of her feelings 2) telling her that I don't agree with calling it quits as I think our relationship going forward is likely to be a lot better than it ever been has but I can only control me so I've learned to accept it and am moving on
Again, why say anything? She didn't ask you any questions.
Validation is good, but it's tricky. It's even trickier to pull off over an email or text, because it can come across as scripted and insincere.
She already knows you don't agree with calling it quits. No need to repeat it.
Saying you're 'moving on' isn't wise. Words are meaningless. You need to show you're moving on through actions, not words.
Married: 15yrs Ages: Me 49, W 44 Kids: S12 BD: around 4/14
Much of this email is boilerplate "reasons" (excuses?) for leaving a marriage. "I've outgrown you" is a classic. Much according to script.
Originally Posted by JoshSco
When you traveled it was a source of relief because it was one less persons emotions to handle.
Your emotions are yours to handle...why is she taking responsibility to manage them?
Originally Posted by Terapin
The point I"m trying to make is, in all her years of 'soul searching', 'healing', etc, did it ever cross her mind to say "what can I do to improve/save our marriage?" From what I just read, the answer is 'no'.
Feels like female solipsism. Google is your friend here. She directly says it's about herself and her feelings. I ran smack into a version in my XW. She said I was distant and didn't make her feel XXXXXX over the last years but OM did. Few to no actions by her over the years to address what she now claims to be marriage ending lack of attention. Not a single word of things she wasn't doing for me. It is/was all about her.
My view was different...but it takes two.
Originally Posted by @GiaMMacool on X
If a woman shouldn’t leave her husband when he becomes unsuccessful, sick or old.
A man shouldn’t leave when his wife becomes fat, sick or old.
Neither of you should run away.
That’s what “til death due you part” means.
You stick it out together, regardless of what’s changed.
g
H:55 XW:50 D19, D18, S13 ILYBINILWY 3/23 DB1 4/23, rescinded 5/23, DB2 6/23 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-5 & W leaves 8/23 – 3/24 Settlement 5/24, Court 9/11/24 <-, D 9/16/24
So how we got here is so nuanced, which I guess in any relationship it is. Sometimes I don't even know where to start. So many layers, so many reasons. Like anything, it's hardly black and white, or one reason specifically, it's a multitude. Not that that will give any clarity for you but hopefully this can allow you to understand more of the scope of where I'm coming from. When we married you were a stable and loving presence in my life and for that I will always be grateful. I was a mess when we met. I hadn't really been on my own, had no idea who I was. You have always been a man who honors commitment and is extremely loyal and created a safe haven. I've always respected you so much for that. Despite my apprehensions, I was also hopeful that it would get better for both of us. For the beginning years of our kids, you were present, helpful, stable, loving. Somewhere around when the kids became more independent though it shifted especially the last few years. You sat in the basement and removed yourself most nights. You helped with rides and sports but were rarely present otherwise. We rarely hung out and I felt disconnected and emotionally neglected. In addition to handling my own emotions I had to handle all of the girls as well. On top of that for most of our marriage the drinking was an issue. Countless times I expressed how uncomfortable it made me, how triggering it was. You disregarded me most times, often placing the blame back on me....it's my issue, my problems with my dad. Again leaving me emotionally abandoned and dealing with past trauma on my own. It almost felt like a form of emotional abuse. Blame the victim for their feelings. You wouldn't go to therapy, everything was my issue, not yours. When I got to the point 8 years ago that was a huge part of it. I knew I didn't love you (or love you anymore) and that that emotional abandonment was a huge part of it. I learned to take care of the kids myself, especially emotionally as well as physically. To some degree I wonder how much I ever felt that emotionally connected, given a huge part of our relationship in the beginning involved alcohol. All of these doubts and misgivings were coming to fruition. I I had to do a huge amount of soul searching for how I really felt and what I needed. All the while I was doing this solo. When you traveled it was a source of relief because it was one less persons emotions to handle. You either grow and evolve with someone in a marriage or you don't. You've always maintained (or previously did) that you had already gone through that growth. Maybe the age was a factor? However, the truth is you never stop growing. I just didn't have anyone to emotionally or spiritually grow with.
I've been growing and evolving for a very long time on my own and I've come to the point where I can't go back. I've compartmentalized for 8 years learning to be self-sufficient and ride this journey solo. For me now the only option is forward. My heart has been so broken for so long that it has it's learning to heal on its own (and I have a lot more healing to do). To go back is denying how far I've come and what I really need for myself in the future. Lately you've been incredible, you've stepped up as dad in so many ways. You tried to fix our marriage. You've been an incredible partner with kids, it's like a 180 and they notice too. We will always be partners to some degree because we are co-parents. I don't regret any of the 15 years married we shared. We have 3 beautiful amazing girls. (Seriously, I think we're doing an darn good job) We balance them well. We've had incredible times together, creating amazing memories (which we will continue to do!). Lately I feel incredibly blessed that I have you as a co-parent to be their dad. We are so lucky. Truth is, this is an absolutely terrifying next chapter but I've denied myself and my feelings for far too long. Drumming up the courage for this has been taking everything of me but I know it's right. Things will change, and it will be hard for all of us but I know it will be okay. When we met one of the things you always said was you loved my optimism but the truth is you bring just as much. I don't know if this even covers all of everything that I've been feeling but this is just some of everything I've been processing.
XX W
How did you feel reading that ?
Do you feel that there is any truth in her words ???
As for a response....
I would say....
Thank you for sharing
Any words from you that she perceives as contradictory, will only invalidate her feelings.
Ill be completely honest. I would have killed for even a fraction of this type of response, rather than all the blame and lack of self awareness, that being said all you can do is validate the feelings but not contradict anything. Im sure a lot of this email is a rewritten version of actual events and a type of recency bias but in the end you have to keep doing whats best for yourself and maybe everything else will fall into place one way or snother. Theres still a high likelihood of an affair as an affair makes its easier to compare a short term fling and exaggerate the differences, so keep this in mind
And NOT by text.....wait until in person and ONLY IF SHE BRINGS UP THE TOPIC.
Do not focus on what you can't change (your W). Focus on the things that you can change. Take a good hard look at your behaviors, the way you interact with other, your beliefs, your thought process, the words you use, the tone, inflections, facial expressions, body language ect.
Decide if any of them need changes. Work on making positive changes from this day forward. You have been given a great gift, even if you can't see it right now.
Learn about attraction and seduction and understand the difference.
Personally, I would make EVERY future bedroom encounter a pleasant surprise for her. She thinks she knows you, prove her wrong. Be different. Make her question her choices.
STFU. Listen. The fewer words you use, the better.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Here's the latest. I know everyone said to refrain from sex but part of having quite a bit of it the last month or so is that it's part of my 180. She's always wanted more but my libido sucked. I went on testosterone replacement therapy right when we first started couple's therapy and before she decided we needed to separate and I feel 25 years younger in just about all facets of life: libido, energy, mental health, less inflammation, making gains at the gym that I haven't in years. Pretty amazing and wish I had gone on it when she first suggested it a year ago. Other than the sex though, I think I've been doing a good job disconnecting and we're moving forward with the apartment rental which we will rotate using on a weekly basis while our 3 daughters stay at the house as well as the separation mediator to help us figure out the expenses during the 3-month trial separation (and whatever comes after that). I just got the email below and wondering if/how I should respond. Thanks as usual for all the great support!
From W:
So how we got here is so nuanced, which I guess in any relationship it is. Sometimes I don't even know where to start. So many layers, so many reasons. Like anything, it's hardly black and white, or one reason specifically, it's a multitude. Not that that will give any clarity for you but hopefully this can allow you to understand more of the scope of where I'm coming from. When we married you were a stable and loving presence in my life and for that I will always be grateful. I was a mess when we met. I hadn't really been on my own, had no idea who I was. You have always been a man who honors commitment and is extremely loyal and created a safe haven. I've always respected you so much for that. Despite my apprehensions, I was also hopeful that it would get better for both of us. For the beginning years of our kids, you were present, helpful, stable, loving. Somewhere around when the kids became more independent though it shifted especially the last few years. You sat in the basement and removed yourself most nights. You helped with rides and sports but were rarely present otherwise. We rarely hung out and I felt disconnected and emotionally neglected. In addition to handling my own emotions I had to handle all of the girls as well. On top of that for most of our marriage the drinking was an issue. Countless times I expressed how uncomfortable it made me, how triggering it was. You disregarded me most times, often placing the blame back on me....it's my issue, my problems with my dad. Again leaving me emotionally abandoned and dealing with past trauma on my own. It almost felt like a form of emotional abuse. Blame the victim for their feelings. You wouldn't go to therapy, everything was my issue, not yours. When I got to the point 8 years ago that was a huge part of it. I knew I didn't love you (or love you anymore) and that that emotional abandonment was a huge part of it. I learned to take care of the kids myself, especially emotionally as well as physically. To some degree I wonder how much I ever felt that emotionally connected, given a huge part of our relationship in the beginning involved alcohol. All of these doubts and misgivings were coming to fruition. I I had to do a huge amount of soul searching for how I really felt and what I needed. All the while I was doing this solo. When you traveled it was a source of relief because it was one less persons emotions to handle. You either grow and evolve with someone in a marriage or you don't. You've always maintained (or previously did) that you had already gone through that growth. Maybe the age was a factor? However, the truth is you never stop growing. I just didn't have anyone to emotionally or spiritually grow with.
I've been growing and evolving for a very long time on my own and I've come to the point where I can't go back. I've compartmentalized for 8 years learning to be self-sufficient and ride this journey solo. For me now the only option is forward. My heart has been so broken for so long that it has it's learning to heal on its own (and I have a lot more healing to do). To go back is denying how far I've come and what I really need for myself in the future. Lately you've been incredible, you've stepped up as dad in so many ways. You tried to fix our marriage. You've been an incredible partner with kids, it's like a 180 and they notice too. We will always be partners to some degree because we are co-parents. I don't regret any of the 15 years married we shared. We have 3 beautiful amazing girls. (Seriously, I think we're doing an darn good job) We balance them well. We've had incredible times together, creating amazing memories (which we will continue to do!). Lately I feel incredibly blessed that I have you as a co-parent to be their dad. We are so lucky. Truth is, this is an absolutely terrifying next chapter but I've denied myself and my feelings for far too long. Drumming up the courage for this has been taking everything of me but I know it's right. Things will change, and it will be hard for all of us but I know it will be okay. When we met one of the things you always said was you loved my optimism but the truth is you bring just as much. I don't know if this even covers all of everything that I've been feeling but this is just some of everything I've been processing.
XX W
100%… without a shadow of a doubt… she’s involved with someone else.
Imagine you were happily married to a good man. Things went slowly downhill and you started to feel disconnected. Then, after years, this man suddenly pulls up his socks and starts doing all the right things.
Wouldn’t you be happy? Wouldn’t you be overjoyed?
I received a letter like this and was perplexed that when things were supposedly better, she still wanted out. Turns out she was banging one of the Dad’s from youngest son’s soccer team.
This letter reads EXACTLY like someone wanting to make their affair someone else’s fault. “Yes you’ve changed, yes you were a wonderful husband, but because you did xyz it’s permanently damaged me and so I have to divorce you.”
This is actually someone trying to make themselves feel better for THEIR decision and choices by making it your fault. What she’s wanting is you to validate her choice with something like “I can see how what I did has made you feel that way.” Then she gets a guilt free divorce.
This is why you should have stopped having sex with her. This is how it has played out in her mind: 1. Life is sh*t 2. Told him I want a divorce 3. Life has been great since that day.
Of course she’s going to continue down this path, it’s been giving her great results so far!
How to reply - TBH, I don’t think there’s a good way to reply to that. I think I’d just ignore it.
Please stop being mr nice guy, please stop sleeping with her. I’d move stuff out of the main bedroom, tell her you don’t want this but you respect her decision, and ask her when she’s moving out.
Confirmed her affair so I moved out of the house to our beach house about 75 minutes away. Her affair had gone quiet and I thought if I was having sex with her, she wouldn't be having it with someone else. That may or may not be true but I'm guessing she's having sex with other guy since I left about 2 weeks ago. I have this guy's number and want to text him screen shots of my texts with her confirming that we were having lots of sex as a way of throwing a wrench into their exciting new relationship. I'm sure that's a terrible idea though?
Have you got that STD test yet? I doubt he’s the first. You need to protect yourself! Run, don’t walk to your nearest doctor and get a barrage of tests for everything.
If the opportunity comes up, move back into the house and tell her to move out or throw her stuff on the kerb. She’s the one choosing to break this family, she should move out - not you.
Are there kids involved?
100% don’t contact him or her. It would be counter intuitive to DB principles and common sense.
Yes, 3 daughters, 10, 13, and 15. She's a stay at home mom and the primary caregiver which is why I moved out. We rented an apartment for 3 months starting January 1st 8 mins from the primary house and the plan was to take weekly turns living in it so the kids can stay in the house.
She's still lying to me even though we're separated. Asked me if I could take the kids to the beach house on New Year's Eve because she might want to get together with some high school friends. We haven't gone out on NYE in years as neither one of us has wanted to. My guess is she's going out with OM and wants the house so they have a place to sleep together which makes me sick that she would do it in the marital bed. But since I'm moving back Jan 1st when she moves to the apartment and I need to bring a bunch of stuff back, I don't have room for all 3 kids and my stuff.
Hurts that kids think it was a mutual separation but from everything I've read, it does them no good to tell them the truth. That said, my 15 year old came across our text chain and knows what's up. I'm sure she'll tell her sisters when they get older. My 12 year old asked me if I could come home for an hour Christmas morning just to do presents and breakfast but I told her it was just too painful to be around mom so soon after the separation.
I’ll reply in more detail when I get the time, however just quickly…
Quote
She's still lying to me even though we're separated.
This is something you’re going to have to work on.
Men get super caught up in right and wrong and blame being placed on the right place. Women get caught up in avoiding accountability and making everything they do someone else’s fault.
If you challenge her on lying about her plans on NYE, she will double down and things will ramp up badly.
You absolutely can not get involved with trying to hold a woman accountable for her lies when she’s in the middle of an affair. She will do anything and everything to avoid being at fault. This is normally when women start making false accusations of domestic violence/coercive control etc.
Do not engage. Tell her you’d love to have the kids on NYE and spend quality with your children.
Wanting a cheating wife to own her behaviour and decision is what we call a “cheeseless tunnel” around here.
Whose fault is definitely something newcomers struggle with letting go.
If there’s a chance you still want to repair this (even though she’s clearly a cheat and a liar), the ONLY way that happens is if she works out for herself that she’s made a bad decision. Never, in the history of divorces, did a husband save his marriage by convincing his wife she was partly responsible and holding her to account. In fact, that’s a guarantee of acrimonious divorce.
The only way you repair this from here is by ignoring her, not engaging, being your best self and Dad, and hoping she joins the dots herself and realises what she lost.
I second what Kind says above. Trying to get your S to own their contributions at this point is a cheeseless tunnel. They aren’t there yet and may never be. To do so would contradict their current view that you are the problem. It certainly won’t attract them back to you if the experiences they have with you leaves them with negative vibes when you’re around. I would often ask myself if what I was going to say or do would make me me more or less attractive to a partner (not specifically my own S but anyone with whom I get into a serious relationship with). I asked if what I was going to say or do represented the best “me” that I aspire to be. When the answer was no, I would STFU as Ready2Change likes to say. Work on yourself and for yourself at this point. No matter what the outcome for you relationship, trust us that this is the best path in the long run.
Oh boy ! I agree with the others that I would not move out of the home . I wouldnt even go to the rental . I don’t remember who it was but back in the beginning of BD for me someone posted learn to live in the uncomfortable. I suggest the same . Learn to do your own thing and whether it feels that way or not project happiness . It will come with time . Women seek strong partners . Sit back and become the best version of yourself . The strongest version . The A will crash and burn . You may decide to stay or go but you and you alone control one person . You ! Your W will test you to see if you’re still on the rope do not take the bait . I find them to almost be like spoiled children. They want what they want when they want it . Take care of you and the kids only .
As far as texting your sexual encounters with wife I’ll chime in with some honesty. I wouldn’t send anything . In my situation I did actually send them . I chose to do it after a letter was sent to the home to start but over the next week I received multiple times a day text messages random numbers , social media messages on various platforms , last I counted 10 different profiles with friends requests . The messages I was receiving were so out there about about my H loves them and how he didn’t sleep with me . One day I was fed up so I took the last 6 or so months of raunchy messages he had sent me and took screenshots and sent them all with one message back . And when I say the dirtiest messages I could find those are what I sent . We were still sleeping together 3-4 days a week during his A. The message said “he’s all yours, please come pick him up , yet he still sits in our home unwilling to move in with you “ . She blocked me and magically the fake profiles disappeared. Do I regret it, absolutely not . Have I received another message since , nope . In your situation I would not, A partners can be vicious. I only did this because I was sought out . I would have never had that not continued to occur . Seek your own peace . Your W needs to find her own way , it’s a long long road . Trust the vets posting and giving advice it seems wrong , real wrong sometimes but boy are they usually on the money .
Thanks Caligirl. So I shouldn't even be at the beach house for the holidays then either? I suppose I could head back home today, I do miss the kids a lot. I also think I'm doing a good job of detaching and not being a nice guy but painful watching her text all the time and wondering what she's up to.
Ok came back two nights ago. W said oh good, my family and the kids will be happy to see you, I can sleep with one of the girls. That first night, she crawled into her side of the bed about 5 minutes after we went to bed. I asked, what are you doing and said it's too hot in the other room and the bed is uncomfortable. I didn't say anything and we didn't touch at any point in the night but it took me 6 hours to fall asleep. The next day I told her that was unfair and no good so she sucked it up and had a bad night's sleep last night in one of the girls room. This morning she said she's sleeping in our bed tonight regardless if I'm there or not. What's my move? I can't prevent her from doing that physically.
Ok came back two nights ago. W said oh good, my family and the kids will be happy to see you, I can sleep with one of the girls. That first night, she crawled into her side of the bed about 5 minutes after we went to bed. I asked, what are you doing and said it's too hot in the other room and the bed is uncomfortable. I didn't say anything and we didn't touch at any point in the night but it took me 6 hours to fall asleep. The next day I told her that was unfair and no good so she sucked it up and had a bad night's sleep last night in one of the girls room. This morning she said she's sleeping in our bed tonight regardless if I'm there or not. What's my move? I can't prevent her from doing that physically.
I think you reiterate that she made the choice to leave the family that includes the bed, home, etc.
Then you sleep in the bed. If there is a lock on your door - use it.
Expect her to spew anger. Stand your ground.
Also - I second what Kind said about your wife NOT being a narcissist. Sure - she is being selfish and acting like a jerk... but that doesn't mean she has NPD.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
Me: I just want to reiterate that you made this choice, I didn't agree with it but I've come to terms with it and I'm giving it to you in the way that is best for the kids so please sleep in another bed. It's less confusing for the kids. Thank you.
W: Yes I know. But I have a modeling thing tomorrow. Can I just sleep there just tonight? You won't even know I'm there. I sleep fine in [daughter 2's] bed but nana [W's mom] is there until tomorrow
Me: Can nana sleep in daughter 1's bed, daughter 2 on trundle, and u in daughter 2's bed?
W: nana is all set up on daughter 2's room. You can't sleep with me for one night. It's opposite sides of the bed?
Me: No. Thanks for moving nana to daughter 1's room.
W: That's BS considering I'm moving out first on the first.
W: Also things to discuss with mediator, not you with your support group and calling the shots.
The support group she referenced in that last text is you guys.
And no, I didn't say anything about this specific support group. Just told her my support group, who has seen 100s of these things, said she should move out of the marital bed. And at the end of the day, despite her protests, it worked. Thanks again all.
And no,Ididn't say anything about this specific support group. Just told her my support group, who has seen 100s of these things, said she should move out of the marital bed.
I suggest you reframe this. YOU do things and enforce YOUR boundaries because YOU chose them.
You will learn a lot here. And I do suggest following the advice. Not because people here said to. That will come across as weak.
Instead do it for you,
as your own choice,
and own the choice and action.
Be Strong.
Choosing and acting what is right.
g
H:55 XW:50 D19, D18, S13 ILYBINILWY 3/23 DB1 4/23, rescinded 5/23, DB2 6/23 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-5 & W leaves 8/23 – 3/24 Settlement 5/24, Court 9/11/24 <-, D 9/16/24
And no,Ididn't say anything about this specific support group. Just told her my support group, who has seen 100s of these things, said she should move out of the marital bed.
I suggest you reframe this. YOU do things and enforce YOUR boundaries because YOU chose them.
You will learn a lot here. And I do suggest following the advice. Not because people here said to. That will come across as weak.
Instead do it for you,
as your own choice,
and own the choice and action.
Be Strong.
Choosing and acting what is right.
g
I agree 100% with Grok. I understand the allure of referencing this group and it can range from 1) shifting who the "bad guy" is from you to the group to 2) referring to some more neutral parties (though we only hear your side of this situation) with accumulated experience/expertise. I'm sure there are more reasons. That said, her response suggests it probably didn't have the effect or impact you hoped.
I have a close friend who similarly tells his current W that either I or another long-term friend say that he should do X, Y, or Z about their marriage. It just doesn't help the situation IMHO, no matter how you slice it. As Grok suggests, I expect it makes a person look week and unattractive (as R2C might say).
I recommend NOT talking about this group, much as MWD recommends keeping her books to yourself. Like those books, this group is here for YOU and YOUR growth, self-improvement, and well-being. Don't give her more ammo to be angry with you. Better to let her sit in her own choices and actions to see what her life is like w/o you, your influence, or your support. And, not to be mean to her. Instead it is because you are working hard on things for youself and kids.
And, you did several good things in that conversation. I recognize that and applaud you for it. Keep up the good work!
I thought about appearing weak when mentioning the support group but yes, was using it as validation that what I was saying and doing was correct and I do think that helped her get the message and not stay in the marital bed the last couple of nights which is what I was looking to accomplish. She leaves for the apartment tomorrow for a week and is expecting me to take the second week. I'm sure she's going to lose it when I tell her I've changed my mind about rotating out of the house and if she wants to separate, she can stay in the apartment. She is the primary caretaker and the kids are going to want her in the home which is where I get conflicted but I also get skeeved out about potentially staying in the apartment if it's simply serving as her sex nest.
I understand your use and validation of the support group reference. However, it best to just state things sans source. Right now, W has a much different viewpoint than you. And she is not on team Josh. Any references, any source material, she will try and tare apart. To find flaws. And believe me, they will just make it up if they have can’t find any cracks.
Also, your reading, counselling, improving, betterment, etc. will all be viewed, in her eyes, as manipulation. Just an attempt to win her back.
So how do you alter that?
Time.
You do. You don’t talk about it. You do it. You live it. Actions speak much louder than words.
Obviously you still speak, but not harp. Tell her you aren’t moving out of the bedroom. Then live it.
You can apologize for wrong doings. It’s ok. Do so, once. And then make the change, and live the new and improved you.
She will notice. However, it is going to take time for her to believe in your changes. So do them for you.
Originally Posted by JoshSco
We went to counseling but she decided that we should prepare for a trial separation after the holidays so that's where we are.
It sounds to me like you got talked into the arrangement. I’d tell/discuss with W that you’ve changed your mind.
“W, I do not wish to separate. And I understand you feel differently. I am willing to working on this marriage, and am going remain under this roof. If you wish you live elsewhere, so be it.”
Something along those lines. Clearly stated.
She will likely get pretty angry. That’s ok. Anger is still passion. Indifference is when things are really dying.
Originally Posted by Kind18
Have you got that STD test yet? I doubt he’s the first. You need to protect yourself! Run, don’t walk to your nearest doctor and get a barrage of tests for everything.
If the opportunity comes up, move back into the house and tell her to move out or throw her stuff on the kerb. She’s the one choosing to break this family, she should move out - not you.
Wise advice.
Although, tossing all her stuff to the curb will likely yield in some legal repercussions. So maybe not that far.
Stay in the house. Be an equal, or more than 50% caregiver to the kids. (Very important!)
Hope you and your kids have a fun New Years and all the best in 2025.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
No it doesn’t. If your intention/preference is not to separate, then don’t. If she does. Walk. Walk into becoming the best you and being the best taking care of home and kids. And for goodness sake GAL!
First off happy new year . Make 2025 the best version of josh .
The sex nest : do not go to the apartment. She wants it . So she can have it . My suggestion is during her time there use the time to be the best father you can . Minimal contact and just love on your children . Children need consistency. Be their constant . Let her throw her fit . Ignore it . Learn to end conversations and/or not respond . You will get some hate , spew, fire just keeping on doing you . It takes time for them to see changes it also takes time for them to learn you won’t be baited .
When W has the children . Get out . Do you . Say nothing . Nothing ! Just return happy and back to being a great dad .
Let that A fizzle , crash , burn and pay no mind to it .
Validation is not you validating what you say , more of what your W brings up .
Example
Wife : it was extremely hard to feel you weren’t helping with the children’s after school activities.
You : That sounds frustrating
I will say on the other side of beginning to repair when he says stuff to me about what I didn’t do for him . I stare at him like a deer in headlights , wait a minute and he says yea I sound stupid now .
My GAL is going well. I'm in great shape, taking care of myself and keeping busy!
There's not enough room for the kids at the apartment and we don't want to have them moving back and forth which is why we were going to rotate. But I can use the beach house Thursday night through Sunday night, work from there on Friday and come back to the primary house after work on Monday. I can also stay with a friend on Wednesday and Monday/Tuesday if need be so I don't need to stay at the apartment.
Doesn't "I do not wish to separate" negate the whole premise of the last resort where you have to be willing to walk?
The first time my W filed for D, I worked with one of the DB coaches found elsewhere on this site. She gave me guidance on using a version of the LRT. It was something like "To me, divorce is not the best solution to our issues. I understand you believe it is. Because I love and respect you, I recognize I need to let go".....or something along those lines. If MWDs brief podcasts are still availabe on iTunes or Google, she has a better version of this that I think I quoted in one of my prior posts. The point is that you are owning your feelings while validating hers. I hope you have a copy of DB or DR where the LRT is discussed. It might be a good time to revisit it. MWD also has a YouTube video or two that covers it but the podcast was the best IMHO.
Regarding the rotating living arrangement, have you talked with an attorney about what legally is best for you? I believe DNJ references this is earlier in this series of posts. It is almost always a bad idea for either parent to "move out" in any way.
From what I've read and been told by others, having a united front when it comes to limiting the damage to the kids is key. If I want to be my best self which means being my best dad, rocking the boat with I'm not leaving, you can leave followed by a bunch of animosity isn't going to help the kids process this. Seems super unfair from the LBS perspective but struggling with that. Without kids, no brainer.
It is generally true that, as parents, you want to have a united front WRT kids as often as reasonably possible. Like any guideline, it may not "always" be right or appropriate. This can be a tough spot to navigate. To be the best dad, it may be necessary to prioritize what's best for you inidividually and then your kids. As I was just reading in another thread (I believe Caligirl's and a post from Job), you have to put your own oxygen mask on first before helping others with theirs, as we hear from flight attendants before any flight.
You can only control yourself. If you kids don't see you behaving in ways the demonstrate animosity, but do see your spouse doing so, they will remember that over time. Over 40 years ago, my parents got divorced and I can tell you to this day every way I saw my mother act with animosity towards my father. By comparison, my dad consistently took the high road. Over the longer-term, it led to a better relationship between he and I than me with my mothers. I respected and looked up to him more. When my W filed for divorce, my D15 absolutely saw a balance of me acting in the most civil manner possible while maintaining my personal values/boundaries. It is a different way to think about being the best dad to your kids by practicing a bit of self-care/orientation.
In many situations, couples who are going through a crisis do not always provide a united front for their children. The spouse that was left behind generally is the one that will exhibit a more positive front and no matter what is going on, do not put negative comments out there. The spouse that walked will most likely be the one to provide negative comments.
You want your children to know that they have a safe place to land and talk to you and the only way to do that is listen and if they ask about the situation, try to be as honest as you can without a lot of negativities.
Before you can assist them, i.e., just like on a plane, you need to put that oxygen mask on first and then assist your children. I know it's difficult because you are having to deal with the fall out and try to provide a safe place to land for your children.
You can do this. You want them to know that they can come to you and yes, they will remember just how the two of you reacted not only to the situation, but to each other.
Come here to vent...
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I don’t know that I’ll ever get back to feeling the way about you that I once did but I’m stilling willing to try. I know you don’t feel that way and want a separation which I’ve respectfully granted with as little friction as possible for the sake of the kids. But I feel like I was rushed and talked into the agreement to share an apartment on a rotating basis during the separation and my initial hesitation to that agreement was brushed aside. As a result, I’ve changed my mind. If you want a separation, the separation is yours and can be had in the apartment. I’m staying in my home and sleeping in my bed.
I have changed my mind. I am staying here. Let’s discuss the best approach for coparenting. This is what I propose…
Especially leave out the feelings you mentioned at the start. Talk about your feelings here not with her. Feel process and utilize them to be better. Move forward with gentle strong confidence. Keep on being a great dad and treat her kindly.
I’d stick to meat of the issue. Your point of view. Your decision. And not telling her how she feels. Nor giving her any extra ammo.
Quote
I don’t know that I’ll ever get back to feeling the way about you that I once did but I’m stilling willing to try. I know you don’t feel that way and want a separation. which I’ve respectfully granted with as little friction as possible for the sake of the kids.
But I feel like I was rushed and talked into the agreement to share an apartment on a rotating basis during the separation and my initial hesitation to that agreement was brushed aside. As a result, I’ve changed my mind.
If you want a separation, the separation is yours and can be had in the apartment. I’m staying in my home and sleeping in my bed.
Quote
I know you want a separation.
I was rushed and talked into the agreement to share an apartment on a rotating basis during the separation and my initial hesitation to that agreement was brushed aside.
If you want a separation, the separation is yours and can be had in the apartment. I’m staying in my home and sleeping in my bed.
This is your line in the sand.
The agreement was not a signed legally binding arrangement.
Seek legal counsel before agreeing to anything else. Seek legal counsel to ensure you know your rights and obligations. It’s just gathering information. However, it is best to be prepared.
It is sometimes difficult to see what is truly best for the kids. If you stand your ground, remain kind and cordial, respectful, non-demonizing to their Mom, you will be alright.
Separation/divorce is messy stuff. Horrible stuff. Do not get talked into, gaslit into, unwittingly giving up your rights. It’s ok to push back, to speak to a lawyer. For most folks this is the biggest decision of, and will have the biggest impact upon, their lives.
Be strong. Focus on you and the kids.
D
Last edited by DnJ; 01/03/2505:37 PM.
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I agree...stick to the issues at hand. Do not agree to anything without speaking to a lawyer. Just because you speak to a lawyer doesn't mean a divorce at this time...you need to know what your rights are and how you are going to be able to take care of your children.
I would most definitely stay in my home. If she wants a separation, well...she can leave or move into another bedroom...you...take the main bedroom.
Listen to the others...less words and just stick to the facts. She doesn't care if you felt rushed or not.
Keep the focus on you and your children. Your children need to know that you are there for them.
Come here and ask questions and above all else....do not agree to anything at this time until you have sought legal counsel.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
That went as you all predicted. I did ok but wish I was a little less emotional when she said you're putting your own needs in front of the kids. Wasn't horrible but I had to point out the irony in that statement.
Home improvement in the morn then gym. Made chicken larb bowls for the girls tonight and at D13s bball game now. Feeling pretty good about the day.
I'll copy and paste the convo. D13's game was great! Best player on the other team hit a tying shot with no time left to send it into overtime then proceeded to walk to the side line and puke all over the court. So she was out in the OT and we pulled it off. Poor girl but really fun game.
I was rushed and talked into sharing an apartment on a rotating basis during the separation and my initial hesitation to that was brushed aside.
The separation is yours and can be had in the apartment. I’m staying in my home and sleeping in my bed.
W: I’m coming home Tuesday period as per our agreement. Do not make this messy. The girls are already texting me they miss me. Girls first. Take the vacation and the [censored] tickets I don’t care. We have talked about nesting and agreed. Period.
Me: I'm sleeping in my bed. It's a big house, sleep somewhere else. No animosity in front of the girls.
W: No. I’m coming back Tuesday. Sleep in your bed until then. It’s my [censored] bed too period. We agreed to nesting. You are not doing this to the girls. They need me home.
Me: Girls were texting me that they missed me too This is your separation W. This is your divorce. This is your blowing up the family. What if they universe gave you everything you needed and you walked away from it? [shouldn't have wrote that last sentence]
W: Yes and as per agreement we will get equal time with them during this period to help them transition. Period. They need their mama. You are letting anger blind you. Enough. I’m not texting anymore. This is counterproductive. I’m coming back Tuesday and sleeping in my bed at home. We are sticking to agreement until next mediation.
Me: I'm not leaving my home or my bed
W: Yes you are. That is too confusing to the girls. It’s OUR home. You will respect what we decided until we talk to professionals period. Do not make this nasty You are not putting the girls first
Me: No, I'm not.
W: Yes you are on Tuesday. Do not make me take this to the lawyer. We are 50/50
Me: No, I will be here on Tuesday. Your separation is the apartment and it's your separation.
W: Absolutely not, the girls need me and I will be back. You are not turning them against their mother or giving them a feeling of abandonment, that is so detrimental to their health. You are letting your anger blind you and not putting them first. I’ll come back now if I need to.
Me: I'm not telling u what to do, just letting u know what I'm doing. Who's not putting them first?
W: You. I have every right as a human to be happy. Then we’ll share the bed and eat the money on the apartment on your weeks. And confuse the F out of the kids in the process. They are under the understanding we are alternating. Constantly changing the rules creates chaos and instability. Trying to take their mom away creates abandonment issues. We can talk about this at therapy. You of anyone should know. The mom does not leave. D13 already says she really misses me. A week at a time is enough. Be a good person and allow the space we both need.
Me: No, your putting yourself before the kids. There's nothing about this that is good for the kids and you decided, I don't care
W: I have every right to be happy and they won’t be if I’m not. You want to stay married to someone who doesn’t love you for the sake of a nuclear family? I thought you were done and ready to move forward?
Me: I deserve to be happy too and I'm happiest in the house
Last edited by DnJ; 01/06/2502:38 AM. Reason: Removed swear words. Removed spouse’s name.
I'd appreciate if you would stick to our agreement for nesting. I really did it for you and the girls to help with adjustment. It's not fair to them to take away snuggles and my time with them. This will leave them with a feeling of abandonment. I'm divorcing you, not the girls. I can't ever imagine not having my mom around. Stability for them is having their mom home at night to tuck them in and give snuggles (which I've done for 15 years).
To which I responded:
Yeah I'm not moving out and sleeping in my bed. The separation and divorce is yours. If you want to sleep here, please sleep in another bed.
W: You said you were leaving all December then showed back up.
You are not being fair to girls and putting them first. You agreed to the nesting. The house is equally mine and now you are reneging on agreement. Girls are expecting me back Tuesday and I will be there, and I will sleep in my bed.
Me: You have no right to sleep in the bed but I can’t stop you
W: What do you mean I have no right? I have every right.
Me: How is this different than texting? [she previously said texting was counterproductive] Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.
W: What do you want? Me not to file? To remain together. You are making this extremely difficult and messy and not putting the kids first at all bc of your bruised male ego.
And no this is no different but I was trying to write a longer form of communication.
W: I think you’ve put us beyond mediation which is so sad and sad for our kids. You aren’t acting civilly and leaving me little choice. What are you hoping to accomplish by this??
I think she is trying to dictate the terms of how things should go, its a sense of entitlement and arrogance and with these 2 character traits you cannot have a successful reconciliation. Reconciliation comes from a place of humility and this is definitely not it. Try to detach and stay emotionless in any interactions and fulfill your duties with your kids to the best of your abilties. It seems like shes still in the mode of either you take me back or i find someone else mode.
Not sure you're following Catman? She's out. Total walkaway/wayward wife. She's not in a place of reconciliation and I dont know that she'll ever be, at least in time to save the relationship.
You stated what you’re going to do. And you left her choices up to her. Good.
Focus on you and the girls. Be a gray rock to W. Do not take her bait, for she will try to elicit a fight. Be calm.
See a lawyer soon and lay out your situation to them. Know the legalities of your situation.
Continue to move forward. Leave the heavy lifting to W, for she’s the one who wants out. You don’t place boulders in her path, yet you don’t pave it in gold either.
Remember, doing nothing is doing something.
Keep moving forward.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Good job for getting that out of the way . Now be cordial and quiet . Like the grocery store clerk you speak with . Yes , no , sure and no thank you . Learn to use short answers and only respond if it is truly needed . Do not explain or try to point out anything . WAS have this way of using your weaknesses against you . Hers seems to be to children . They are just as much your children as hers. The home is just as much yours as it is hers. You do not have to leave because she says so . They think it’s going to be sunshine and rainbows while separating.
Tread very carefully with how you respond and what you do . WAS will try to bait you into very heated arguments and then say it’s not good for the children to see it and attempt to get you out of your home . You are josh 2025 . Solid .
Spend time with the children . Take care of you and them . Be the best dad .
Just a word of advice that’s taken me a few months to grasp . No answer sometimes is the best answer . Learn to not engage .
You "cleared the air" and now you need to stick to your guns on what you will and will not do. Do not make any more promises or say that you are leaving, etc. Stay in the home and in your own bed. She is the one that wants out, so let her get a good taste of what will be.
These crisis people think that they can dictate to us what we are going to do. They like to flex their muscles and try to get us to do everything they want. That is not the way it works. She is going to bait you into conversations and arguments. You do not take that bait. You do not need to justify what you are doing just as long as your children are ok and you are being the best dad out there. She is using the children to try to get you to do what she wants. Right now, they are pawns for her to use against you. Stand firm! No more discussions unless there is an emergency, or it is directly related to the children and/or finances. Silence is golden.
One more thing, do not respond back to her too quickly. If you wait for a couple of hours or even a day or so....no harm. You are a busy man and have priorities that need to be addressed, and you will respond when you have time.
Do not waffle on what you will or will not do. Take a huge breath because this is a marathon, not a sprint and she will test you over and over again. Do not take her bait!
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
We have co-parenting counseling scheduled for tomorrow with the marriage counselor we were seeing before W decided she wanted to separate. Is that something I should maintain? I know W is hoping she and the counselor will talk me into the apartment rotation but my plan is to just take that off the table at the onset and see where it goes from there.
There is not much point in marriage counseling when one of the partners wants to separate. They just use the MC as more ammo. “Well, we tried MC and it didn’t work.”
Of course counseling doesn’t work when they have one foot out the door.
If you do go for the co-parenting advice/meeting, keep them on task. Do not engage is other topics. “We are here to discuss co-parenting.” Don’t let W, or her counsellor, gaslight or coerce you.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Navigating this stuff is super hard. I think you’re doing well in that you’re not getting frazzled by her. There’s going to be lots more of her making this difficult because she’s not getting the easy, no blame divorce she wants. You can expect more of this.
I do want to pull you up on something though:
Quote
This is your separation W. This is your divorce. This is your blowing up the family.
This is not helpful. Earlier in your thread I talked about how trying to get a woman to take responsibility and accountability for her decision was a cheeseless tunnel. When they’re in affair mode, they will rebut this heavily. It will make her angry and will really stoke antagonism.
You really need to take a step back and ask what it’s going to achieve. She’s being a disloyal POS at the moment, and deep down she knows it. So she is pouring heaps of energy into making sure others don’t know it’s her fault. Every time you jab her with “Well this is your decision” you’re lessening your chances of an eventual reconciliation or a peaceful divorce for your kids.
You need to let it go.
She’s not going to own choosing to have an affair for at least 3-5 years, if ever. Keep popping that pimple at your own peril.
You’re better off thinking about the following:
1. Show through actions, not words. Getting involved in lengthy tit-for-tat message exchanges makes you appear weak because you’re trying desperately to justify your stance. You just say “I’m going to do XYZ” and then you do it, no arguing, no getting drawn into discussion. A good phrase to remember is “I’ve said all I need to say.” If she sees you say you’re going to do something and then just do it, she’ll see your consistency and she’ll stop thinking she can control and manipulate you. She will believe ACTIONS NOT WORDS.
2. To avoid the confrontational “you chose this”, always just speak about yourself. For example, rather than saying “you chose this”, say “I’m staying in my bed at my house because I don’t want to leave this marriage.” “I’m not agreeing to that because I don’t want to.” “I’ve realised the nesting arrangement is not working for me and I will be sleeping in my own bed.” I - I - I statements, never YOU - YOU - YOU.
I’m a bit concerned that under all these exchanges is a deep-seated desire for you to get acknowledgement that this is her fault. You really need to get past that, because it ain’t going to happen.
Be a strong, decisive, consistent and unwavering man. Build a 10 foot brick wall around you and your kids which doesn’t include your wife, and every time something comes up - ask yourself if this problem is inside your brick wall or outside. Her problems or thoughts or feelings or wishes are no longer your problem.
Regarding the marriage counsellor/co-parenting counsellor, if you’re not prepared to negotiate on things, then it seems a waste of time. This is how it’s going down if you go:
Her: He agreed to nesting and now he’s refusing to leave the house You: You’re the one leaving the marriage, not me Her: You’re making bad decisions for your children, we need to put them first You: No, you made the ultimate bad decision for our whole family
You need to break the cycle. Change the narrative. Flip the script.
You say you’re worried she’s going to try and get the counsellor on her side. How about calling the counsellor before the appointment and telling them you want to meet separately initially? Don’t message your wife asking her to meet separately, or threatening “I’ll only go if we can meet with counsellor separately” because that’s weak and submissive. Ring the counsellor, tell them you want to meet separately and make it happen.
I just emailed the therapist to let her know that the nesting/rotating apartment thing doesn't work for me and I will be staying in the house and sleeping in the bed so we should think about co-parenting solutions within that context. Will let you know how it goes.
Ok, that wasn't as bad as I feared. Stayed unemotional and stood my ground. We didn't come to any agreement so I don't know what W is going to do. She said she would stay in the apartment were it not for the legal ramifications in the event I decide that I want full custody. I don't and she knows that but there's no trust between us so I get her concern on that. Onward!
Ok, that wasn't as bad as I feared. Stayed unemotional and stood my ground. We didn't come to any agreement so I don't know what W is going to do. She said she would stay in the apartment were it not for the legal ramifications in the event I decide that I want full custody. I don't and she knows that but there's no trust between us so I get her concern on that. Onward!
I forget how old your kids are but couldn't she just take one of the girls bedroom and they sleep in the same bedroom. Not ideal but in the end - it wouldn't hurt them too much emotionally.
I'm not saying you should suggest this to your wife... only to say that there are options... it is just not the one she wanted.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
3 girls, 10, 13, and 15. She's going to try staying in D13s room on the top bunk. I suggested if that doesn't work to think more creatively with d10 sleeping with d15, d13 in d11s bed and her in D13s bed and she said stop patronizing her, if it doesn't work, she's sleeping in our bed. The use of the word "our" hurt but I wished her a good night and told her that I hoped her cold was continuing to improve.
Your guy's collective advice and support have been so helpful. Here's tonight, love hearing what I'm doing right and wrong.
W: D10 is having a really hard time with me not being there in the evenings just cried for half an hour. (Yes my fault I know) I’ll try sleeping top bunk. Maybe apartment weekends. It’ll be better once more activities. I’d like more space for us But I can’t do that unless I know you’re agreeing to my primary custody and 2/3.
Me: That must be tough for u, thanks for trying the bunk and would think of creative solutions if that doesn't work (e.g. D10 sleeps with D15, u in D13's bed, D13 in D10's bed). It's fortunate they are all girls. Your weeks will still b your weeks regarding the kids. I haven't figured out what I want regarding custody. Still processing that with therapist.
W: Stop being patronizing. I’m so over it. Making the girls shift isn’t really fair either.
W: The most stable thing for the girls and custody is not to shift weekly to different homes. Think of how hard that is with school. Research it, it’s much more stable for them to have one place during school days. Your therapist doesn’t necessarily put kids first she puts yours first remember? That’s settled then. I can’t use apartment at night which is a waste of money and is going to suck for you too. If I don’t like creative solutions I’m back in our bed.
Me: Ok have a good night, hope ur cold is continuing to improve.
W: Whether or not I chose this, you forget how complicit you were in the unraveling. You’ve completely exonerated yourself from any responsibility.
W: You’d rather I stay unhappy (which means you don’t or ever really loved me) and in a house with someone I don’t love for the sake to make yourself happy. THAT is selfish.
W: It’s unfair that you won’t move out or move beds period. Having me sleep on a bunk and do what I do as a primary caregiver is unfair. It makes me a nanny. D13 mentioned today that you not moving seems unfair and neither will having me sleep somewhere else. Explain that to them. Talk about also instilling patriarchy for them.
Not going to respond to any of that tonight.....or ever.
No response is a response. I've inherited the deer in headlights stare and somehow it works. Silence or as I've been taught ... I drink STFU smoothies.
You're doing well. Stay strong.
H:49 W:49 M:26; T:32 D21; S23 BD1: Feb 2023 (I think it was a BD) BD2: Sept 2023 Moved out: Dec 2023
Hey Josh. I know it is hard to not respond to jabs from our partners like some of what W threw at you. Been there, done that. At first, it feels good to "win" when you do because you have a better or quicker comeback. In the end, it doesn't help the situation at all and can make your W expand her affair activity, go harder for "blood" in any D settlement, and so on.
I agree with what others have already stated above, especially Kind. She's not saying things to you that require a response, so don't respond. At best, you may borrow a few phrases from the "Validation Cheat Sheet" resource on the Newcomers page here. Some that come to mind here include:
1. "I can see how it would feel that way" 2. "I am gonna have to think about that a little more" 3. "I'd like to respond to you when I'm feeling a little less emotional about this"
In a follow-up to Kind's suggestions that you at some point say things like "I've said all I need to say" you could lead into that by saying you are making decisions that our best for your well-being and, from your perspective, the well-being of your children". She's fired you as a husband and, while you need to compromise and co-parent, it doesn't mean you just grant her request for primary custody and the like. Also when my W similarly suggested I "exonerated" myself of any wrongdoing, my DB coach suggested I tack on "I know I contributed to what got us here and am working to avoid repeating those actions" or something like that. The focus is on YOU and not her, as Kind suggests.
If you can't reach an agreement, eventually a mediator or judge will do it for you (not ideal). So, think hard about what is best for you and your kids. Write down an actual range reflecting your ideal goal is WRT the kids/custody on one end of a range. On the other end of that range, write down what the least is that you're willing to accept. Then, right in the middle (and possibly based on what a lawyer might tell you is likely to happen if it goes to a mediator or judge), jot down what is the most likely, reasonable outcome.
I strongly dislike your W dragging your 13-year-old into this discussion. That is 100% inappropriate. You may want to tell your W that, going forward, if she tries to leverage your kids in this way again, you will end the discussion.
Keep working at it. Remember, no matter the outcome, developing new behaviors will help you in the long run...and help your kids have a role model who can maintain a healthy relationship should act.
Though it's been 20 years or so since my last break up, they always bring out the fledgling poet in me. I wrote this in the middle of the night a few weeks back when I was in a darker space. It's titled 3:25.
Light through the window awakens my eyes A back yard porch light It's 3:25
The sun has not risen I've been rushing my days
Starting earlier Always moving A bit of a haze
Is it too early To jump in the ocean? I think from my bed
Will it help heal me And ease the commotion That stirs in my head?
What next then? Shower! Coffee! Walk! Work! Make a meal plan Get to the gym
Put on some music Cook up that plan Read a book And in bed again
W's first week at the apartment came to an end today. She agreed to sleep in G13's room but asked what we are going to tell the girls so I said, Dad doesn't want to sleep in the bed mom is having sex in probably doesn't work so what do you suggest? She replied, you're an ahole. So she's back in the house and started texting me an hour ago about how confusing it is for the kids and youre coming home at 6 and I'm cooking for you too when its my week?
I told her I would come home later after 7, have leftovers that I made the last two nights for the kids and me that I'll eat and I'll stay out of your hair to which she replied this only works for you. I responded with I can understand how it would feel that way.
Mom and dad love you very much . Sometimes people need to sleep in different rooms .
Rotate cooking each week for the children .
Be mindful how you are responding to her messages or if you should at all . The sex comment and you cooked last two nights sounds like you are taking digs at her . It’s not needed .
I went through same thing with cooking . My nights which are always more and the kids prefer moms dinners anyway . I cooked . Plated the children and myself . If H wanted to eat food was there . He could make his own plate if he wanted .
W slept in D13's top bunk last night but neither D13 or W slept well and W didn't set alarm so D13 was running late this morning. W wanted me to drive her to school but it's the opposite direction of where I need to go to get to work and I needed to get in early to make up for my week with the kids when I was going in late and leaving early (folks at work are aware of what's going on and supportive). So I just said this is your week and left.
D13 doesn't understand why I'm not "letting mom sleep in her bed" and W doesn't seem to have my back which is not surprising. So she said she's sleeping in our bed tonight regardless if I'm there or not. It's a king size bed so we can keep our distance but I know I won't sleep if she's there (last night was the worst sleep I've had in a while and I think it's just because she was in the house). I'm ok with being uncomfortable as you all suggest but I also think it might be better for the kids if I stay at the beach house the next two nights and come back on Saturday for kiddo's activities. I have plans in the city Saturday night and can use points to stay at a hotel near my plans as well. Work from beach house Friday/Monday and come back Tuesday evening after work.
Be mindful how you are responding to her messages or if you should at all . The sex comment and you cooked last two nights sounds like you are taking digs at her . It’s not needed .
I know, the sex thing was snarky. Of course she denies she is having sex with OM but I don't believe a word out of her mouth.
Last edited by DnJ; 01/15/2506:15 PM. Reason: Corrected quote syntax.
btw, how do you all copy parts of messages in call-out boxes in your replies? I was hoping my reply to Caligirl about the sex comment was going to do that but feeling a bit like a dinosaur on this technology!
Try going to the "Use Full Editor" and then push each of the formatting buttons. They will insert open and close formatting markers. You can see how to type in the formatting.
For quotes the open marker it [quote] or
Originally Posted by sometexthere
. The "sometexthere" will show up as a header of the quote of the form "Originally Posted by sometexthere"
The close marker is
geeking history -
This version of markup language is actually a dinosaur called UBB code . All variants of Standard Generalized Markup Language (SGML) from the 1980s
which resulted in a subset/profile Extensible Markup Language (XML) in the 1990s for structuring arbitrary data
and Hypertext Markup Language (HTML) as the basis for display formatting of web pages which uses XML for non display and linking functions.
Originally Posted by AI what is UBB?
UBB markup is a simplified markup language used to format messages in internet forums. It was created by Infopop in 1998 and is designed to be easier to learn than HTML. UBB markup allows users to add formatting such as bold and italics, and other information like emails and URLs, to their posts without needing to know HTML.
Here are some key points about UBB markup:
Tags are enclosed in square brackets, e.g., bold text for bold text.
If used incorrectly, UBB tags do not break the forum’s functionality, unlike HTML tags which can cause errors.
UBB markup works similarly to HTML tags; text is enclosed between opening and closing tags.
It can be used even when HTML is disabled by the forum administrator.
g
H:55 XW:50 D19, D18, S13 ILYBINILWY 3/23 DB1 4/23, rescinded 5/23, DB2 6/23 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-5 & W leaves 8/23 – 3/24 Settlement 5/24, Court 9/11/24 <-, D 9/16/24
W slept in D13's top bunk last night but neither D13 or W slept well and W didn't set alarm so D13 was running late this morning. W wanted me to drive her to school but it's the opposite direction of where I need to go to get to work and I needed to get in early to make up for my week with the kids when I was going in late and leaving early (folks at work are aware of what's going on and supportive). So I just said this is your week and left.
D13 doesn't understand why I'm not "letting mom sleep in her bed" and W doesn't seem to have my back which is not surprising. So she said she's sleeping in our bed tonight regardless if I'm there or not. It's a king size bed so we can keep our distance but I know I won't sleep if she's there (last night was the worst sleep I've had in a while and I think it's just because she was in the house). I'm ok with being uncomfortable as you all suggest but I also think it might be better for the kids if I stay at the beach house the next two nights and come back on Saturday for kiddo's activities. I have plans in the city Saturday night and can use points to stay at a hotel near my plans as well. Work from beach house Friday/Monday and come back Tuesday evening after work.
No no no!
I’m sorry, but you’re letting her walk all over you.
You made a stance that you’d sleep in your bed, and now you’re rolling over. You’re teaching her that you’ll say the tough things, but when push comes to shove, you’re going to let her walk all over you.
I get that you’ll say “but this is hard for my daughter”, but that’s your wife’s problem.
Not at the flat, at the beach house. I'll sleep better, she'll have to deal with the kids without me, and I'm happy down here without her 4 feet from me. I'm increasingly comfortable moving on from her.
I'm guessing DB's aren't going to like this but came across a philosophy about love, marriage, and divorce that has really had a positive impact on my healing process. I'm not great at putting emotions into words but it goes something like this:
-marriage in its current modern form is a social contract that was really created to pass on wealth from generation to generation over the past few hundred years
-as such, love gets put into a box that consists of ownership
-when you put love into a box of ownership, it can destroy the love; not always, but sometimes
-the ultimate love is unconditional; if you say I love you but only under the condition that you are by my side, that is not only unconditional but it's actually a massive condition
-the fear of divorce comes from a philosophy of scarcity of love
-when you change that philosophy from one of scarcity to one of abundance, that fear dissipates, and you can love unconditionally even if the one you love has chosen another path
Again, I don't expect a lot of agreement on this forum and feel free to chip away at this but it's been hugely healing for me!
"when you change that philosophy from one of scarcity to one of abundance, that fear dissipates, and you can love unconditionally even if the one you love has chosen another path."
this really helped me get to a better place mentally. When I realized that, regardless of WW's actions, I was going to be ok, I allowed myself to become the man I wanted to be. The love for her was still there and always would be, but I also learned that I NEEDED to LOVE myself, too.
When I started to adopt that mindset and put more love into myself, that was when WW started to drift back. I had to get to a place in my mind where I knew I that I was going to be ok, no matter what WW decided to do. By the time the A came out and I was able to confront her, I was doing it from a place of love for both myself and her.
It happened to work out that we stayed together, and I'm thankful for that, but I know I would've been ok if it had gone the other way, too, because I loved myself and her enough to let her go. I STILL know that to be true, and I navigate my life from that place.
It's not something that happens overnight, though.
btw, how do you all copy parts of messages in call-out boxes in your replies? I was hoping my reply to Caligirl about the sex comment was going to do that but feeling a bit like a dinosaur on this technology!
I'm guessing DB's aren't going to like this but came across a philosophy about love, marriage, and divorce that has really had a positive impact on my healing process.
I am glad it has resonated with you and had a positive impact upon your healing.
Originally Posted by JoshSco
marriage in its current modern form is a social contract that was really created to pass on wealth from generation to generation over the past few hundred years
Oddly, the current modern marriage does not follow the hundreds of year tradition. Modern marriage is about love.
So, you’ve got the love. Why marry?
Marrying for love is no better than marrying for power, or money, or status, or whatever.
If you have the love, why do you need to get married? Traditionally, “old” traditionally, passing on wealth, property, etc.
The modern age, a better “reason” to marry. Respect. You respect the other person. Their values. So you marry. Combine resources and therefore can do more than either can do separately. The marriage being more than the sum of each.
Respect needs to be at the heart of a marriage, or relationship. Not love.
Love is the icing on the cake. It’s not the cake.
A relationship with respect and trust being the foundation, that love will flourish and will be unconditional.
Unfortunately most do not move into marriage due to mutual deep respect for one another. They do it for love, infatuation. (Lots of pressures from hallmark and diamond sellers. It’s everywhere. ) Then starts ownership, scarcity, fear, and such.
Abundance, living such a tenet, requires little to maintain. It is you. It is how and who you are. Which will be reflected in one’s actions.
However, discovering and achieving such does require purposeful effort. And time. Our modern world is quick to blame and hold grudges. And it does not display forgiveness often. Folks’ default usually follows the scarcity/fear path. And a big old dose of self entitlement. Definitely not the best ingredients for a relationship.
Yet, people do grow and evolve. Lots of hope in that.
Anyhow, just a few thoughts.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
So not moving to the apartment on my week when we had initially agreed I would and staying in the house/bed caused my W to file. Her lawyer is already coming at me hard like I told her she would but we are still going to try to use a mediator to make it less contentious.
She didn't file because you refused to move to the apartment. I hope you know that nothing you did or didn't do contributes to that. You set a boundary for yourself.
She was ready to file. She is just using your boundary as an excuse to absolve her of her own guilt; it makes her feel better to know that "you" caused this, not HER own actions.
These are the mental gymnastics WWs play with themselves to keep them from seeing the truth.
gaslighting is a REAL thing here. The scariest part is that they do it to themselves as much as to us.
She didn't file because you refused to move to the apartment. I hope you know that nothing you did or didn't do contributes to that. You set a boundary for yourself.
She was ready to file. She is just using your boundary as an excuse to absolve her of her own guilt; it makes her feel better to know that "you" caused this, not HER own actions.
These are the mental gymnastics WWs play with themselves to keep them from seeing the truth.
gaslighting is a REAL thing here. The scariest part is that they do it to themselves as much as to us.
One thousand percent this Josh. We’re all rooting for you.
What I’m seeing here is a man who, over the life of this marriage, has been trained into taking the blame for his wife’s actions. What you did was an ENTIRELY REASONABLE thing to do. You decided you wanted to stay in your bed, you decided if she wanted to leave the marriage then she could leave the master bedroom and house.
You set a tough, but ultimately reasonable and fair boundary - she didn’t like it, so her retaliatory response was COMPLETELY UNREASONABLE and over the top.
What she is doing is basic manipulation and gaslighting. Women like your wife who have to start feeling the consequences of their own decisions (ie sleep in a different bed) will push back extremely hard. They will deflect, blame, massively ramp up and bring in others (like a lawyer) to hide behind. I guarantee she’s telling her friends and family “I had to file because he wouldn’t even let me sleep in my own bed, and I was just out of options.” This is the modern divorce woman 101. 100% victim, 0% accountability.
Don’t take it to heart. Don’t get upset. Don’t take the blame. This was going to happen anyway. Without a shadow of a doubt, no matter what you’d done, said or how hard you’d bent over to her demands and wishes, she still would have done this. Remember, she’s a cheat and a liar and she wants out of this inconvenient marriage that’s getting in her way.
At various points along this journey, things are going to suck. Hard. You can not change another person’s decisions, values, behaviour or thoughts.
The funny thing is, you’re more likely to save this marriage one day because of this - while she might hate you right now, and she’ll never admit this, she probably has a bit of respect for you because you finally stood up to her.
I reckon I’d email the lawyer back, saying “I’m disappointed your client has decided to engage a lawyer. Your client wishes to end this marriage, however supported divorce mediation is my preference over lawyers. I hope your client realises that every time a lawyer gets involved, money will be taken from the education and future of our children and placed into a lawyers’ pockets.”
I expect your wife will keep hiding behind her lawyer, because she knows she’s in the wrong and she wants a shield between her choices and her outcomes. Her avoidance of accountability will continue to worsen over the next 3-6 months, so expect things to temporarily get worse before they get better.
just cried for half an hour. (Yes my fault I know) I’ll try sleeping top bunk. Maybe apartment weekends. It’ll be better once more activities. I’d like more space for us But I can’t do that unless I know you’re agreeing to my primary custody and 2/3.