Rumspringa

[MamaG]

Happy Friday!

H received and was appreciative of the book and said he'd read it. Before he moved out he was not open at all to any sort of self help in the form of a book - at least not any book that I could offer.

Let me know if you ever learn that he reads it. I've considered doing the same but don't want to interrupt the journey. H's bday is later this month. I will be following his lead on the gift front as mine is before his in November. Should I get a lil something, I'm thinking he could use a good read. Hoping yours reads it and reports back on his learnings. Wouldn't that be insightful?!

Finding myself incredibly angry and spitting venom into my set of locked One Note documents. I guess it's just how I have to process this. I have to go to work, leave this bottled up all day and then I come home and need to release all the thoughts that have built up during the day.

Yup. I feel ya. Journaling helped me through this weekend. I kept replaying the events and you saw what I processed through journaling. Hard, but it works. Do more of what works and less of what doesn't.

My work for me now is to figure out why I put up with so much rejection from him. Why it took something completely shocking and jarring to allow me to see our negative patterns of relating. And why I STILL want his approval, despite all that has happened.

I'm sorry to hear about poochies. I imagine, it was hard to learn they were neglected. Hi is in a fog. Unless I'm looking to do a gut check like this weekend (after 5 months of no contact), I no longer ask for help from H. For me, it was more that he'd 'forget' to come to do x and I could feel myself getting sad, mad, rejected. I don't feel rejected anymore...bc I don't ask him anymore. It also fits nicely into detaching.

Got any plans for this weekend? What fun GALing are you looking forward to?

[RegretfulLA]

Mama/DnJ -
Big hugs and thank yous... this board is a lifesaver. Your thoughtful and insightful input is so helpful - you have no idea.

I was just starting to feel better and back to normal, when today I found out more.

I realized that I have access to H's calendar so of course I looked at it.

What I found out:
He's been making plans with the woman from the journal and they are calendaring it!

This is very stupid. She's a lawyer. She should know that when you use your retirement funds to pay for an affair, it counts against you. Now I have proof. He traveled with her. I have screen shots. The fact that I can use this against him makes me feel a little better, but right now all I feel is intense rage.

Seems this is an ongoing relationship/affair. She keeps a private calendar to calendar their events (not her personal calendar but it comes from her email; it's definitely the person I thought it was). I wonder if she is also cheating?

I am struggling with the rage right now. I need to keep this all a secret from him so I can get what I need in the D. I have to be strategic. It is taking every bit of my strength not to confront him. To confront her. But I know that I need to keep an eye on the calendar and continue to gather evidence, as much as it upsets me.

After work, I got in my car, screamed 4 times, cried, and then I talked to my sister on my drive home. Then I got one of his surfboards, wrote 'CHEATING LYING [Censored] [Censored] [Censored]' all over it and then hacked at it with a pickaxe. I feel better now.

I changed my password at work to be an acronym of "why would you want to be with someone so weak" (a mantra of mine) so that I could remember it several times a day. Changing my master password too away from H's old pet name for me to something empowering. I haven't decided on that yet.

I scheduled call with L for tomorrow.

All these things help me take back my power. The fury of betrayal motivates me to take action. This is the worst thing that has ever happened to me, including getting cancer while I was pregnant.

Next step is to work on my financial plan so I can go in there prepared. I intend to file first. I'm really scared about how this is going to work out financially, but I am the one who controls the purse strings. This is to my advantage.

I know none of this is in the spirit of DB, but what I take from the book and from this group is the idea that I do have some control. That I can be intentional about my actions. That by being intentional, I can benefit. That I am not helpless in an otherwise horrible situation. Believe me, I am no longer interested in getting H back. The only way I would even consider taking him back is if he had a complete come to Jesus moment and was able to truly work on himself and be 100% truthful with me. So far, I see no evidence that that will happen, aside from some regret in his voice when we talk. I would like to think that H feels some sort of shame for treating me this way, but maybe he doesn't. I know he carries around a lot of shame in general. Maybe part of him is doing this so he can "prove" that I love him. This is the part that I need to let go: the hope that we will repair our marriage - and this might be the hardest thing.

I wonder - if he came back and said he wanted to work on the marriage - would I? In the absence of him coming clean about the A, no. I would not. One of my favorite people says "Watch what they DO, not what they SAY!"

I told my mother my intentions to D and she was as empathetic as she could be, which is to say, she did not miss her calling as a therapist. When I went through first DB in 2012 she was mostly focused on making sure that I was not going to leave the brass andirons in my fireplace behind. I am not kidding about that. This is adding to my disappointment. She is not very supportive, although i know she wants to be.

[grok]

Hey RegretfulLA,

I was just starting to feel better and back to normal, when today I found out more.

I realized that I have access to H's calendar so of course I looked at it.

Oh yes, that snooping. And when you find what you are not being told. A real gut punch. I ... was not myself for a couple of months.

The only way I would even consider taking him back is if he had a complete come to Jesus moment and was able to truly work on himself and be 100% truthful with me. So far, I see no evidence that that will happen, aside from some regret in his voice when we talk. I would like to think that H feels some sort of shame for treating me this way, but maybe he doesn't.

And when you compare Sandi's list of what it requires to reconcile, you realize just how far away from current reality ... that dream is.

After work, I got in my car, screamed 4 times, cried, and then I talked to my sister on my drive home. Then I got one of his surfboards, wrote 'CHEATING LYING [Censored] [Censored] [Censored]' all over it and then hacked at it with a pickaxe. I feel better now.

Do it some more. And let it out. You have to, in bits. My sister told me she used to go for walks in the forest and "whack every tree with a big stick... my hands hurt after but I felt better for a while."

I know none of this is in the spirit of DB, but what I take from the book and from this group is the idea that I do have some control. That I can be intentional about my actions. That by being intentional, I can benefit. That I am not helpless in an otherwise horrible situation.

No, I'd say it is in the spirit of DB. You have defined conditions/boundary under which a R can work for YOU. Making your changes and maybe they will want to come along for the journey. It is not about waiting around forever.

I'm really scared about how this is going to work out financially

Fear. Yes, I have had it. Less now. Though financially this will set me back 10+ years. Half of our combined assets. One more year of 25% of my income to alimony (I'm looking at it as paying for my kids private teacher...thanks my sister for that frame!).

Litany Against Fear - Dune by Frank Herbert

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

Face the fear. Let it flow through and go. YOU remain.

It is not what you (I) wanted or ever imagined ... but your future is calling!

Faith

Future's Calling - Apollo LTD

Is anyone out there?
Is anyone listening?
Is there any path to understand
Or is it just a mystery?
...
Hello human
Hello suffering
It's hard to reconcile what is
And the way it was meant to be
But something's about to givе
Standing on the brink
...
I know you're lonely
And you're broken-hearted
Always fighting to find your way
You're barely holding on, holding on, holding on
All you need is just a little faith
The future's calling your name

g

[RegretfulLA]

Thank you Grok. This is hard. You've been there. You know how devastating this is.

Only thing to do now is work on me, work on letting go. Plan an H-less future. Try to come to terms with the fact that H isn't a good guy, or at the very least, he's not a good H.

I'm beginning to see this separation as a tremendous gift. It has allowed me to discover what I needed to discover in order to move on, and has given me the blessing of space and time to process and plan in total solitude. It has allowed me to truly understand the reality of what has been happening vs. my skewed/wishful thinking that H would somehow take his leave, come back, and be ready to start fresh. I have come to realize that he took this break not to think about things and work on our marriage, but to see if things will work out with OW/AP. He has been cake eating all this time. I have no idea how I would be doing this if H were still here.

I still have feelings for H, as is quite common among us LBS. I have made an embarrassingly long list of all the things he did that hurt me in our marriage, along with how that made me feel. Reading it, I'm ashamed that I stayed, and I'm incredibly thankful that I finally have the guts to D. I wish it had not come to betrayal, but that is what it took for me to finally wake up. I look at the list when I need a reminder of why I need to D and it helps. I haven't yet internalized it. I'm still clinging to what was, or what I hoped for.

Despite his devious and malignant behavior, I still see him as a broken little boy looking for mommy (which doesn't make for a great spouse), and I feel bad for him. I was with him for half of my life, and I've known him for more than 2/3 of it. I will know him for the rest of it, since we share two children. Having read those journals, I got an insight into some of his pain. This is not an excuse but he sought validation/self acceptance from OW/AP and it's sad that he was broken enough to do that. This is why I sent him that book.

I was tested for all STDs and thankfully all negative. Low risk since it's been over a year w H but I know he was with her prior to that.

On boundaries - they are the only thing that we can control in an otherwise uncontrollable situation. I had really lost sight of mine and was letting him walk all over me in some futile hope that he would/could love me.

Grateful for you all.

[RegretfulLA]

Hello all,
I think my H's Rumspringa has entered Act II.

He has been spending more time around the house. He dropped by a week and a half ago to pick up a few things (one of which was his surfboard which I vandalized after finding out he was still with AP - boy did I have to dance around that). We sat and talked for about 20 min. I was nervous the entire time, mostly because that surfboard was in our shed and I was praying he wouldn't find it (he didn't and I got rid of it the next day). It was a very light discussion, nothing about R or anything like that. Just... chit chat.

A week later he comes by again because he's brought S18 home for Thanksgiving break. This time he sits in the living room for 45 minutes. I knew he was coming over so I bought some red roses and made a bouquet and put it in the living room. Let him sweat a little. He didn't ask about it. Again, conversation was light. After he left I told S18 "I think Dad misses me." S18 said "Yeah, he said that he did."

This evening he came over again because now he's picked up S20 from the airport. For the first time since August, all 4 of us were here together in this house. H made himself comfortable on the couch, first putting his leg over the side which he used to do and then fully stretching out. This time he stayed for an hour and a half. The four of us talked for a while - at one point the boys went upstairs and it was just him and me - again, kept it light - asked him about work etc. I am sure he's feeling a little left out but I guess that is his problem.

One thing - he doesn't really ask how I am and he kind of defaults to looking at his phone during these conversations. This is all a non-starter for me but of course I can't really ask him to put his phone down at this point because we want to keep him soft and pliable and not put him on the defensive.

He is coming over tomorrow to take the boys to play golf and then on Thursday he will be joining us for Thanksgiving (at the boys' invitation, not mine).

A few things to note:

- I've gotten way more clear on my intentions. Yes, I would like to save my marriage but I need to set some serious boundaries which include honesty and openness. My marriage can no longer be about "putting up" with H. He will have to put in some serious, and I mean SERIOUS work, and I am not sure he's up to it. I am assuming he's not. My feeling is that he will not get serious about this until D is going and he really understands what he has to lose (half of his equity in his company, for starters). He will not change until the pain of not changing exceeds the pain of doing the work.

- I've doing a lot of thinking, reading and listening to podcasts about divorce. It is helping me get comfortable with it should I choose to go there. I still think I will need to go there.

- Next week, after Thanksgiving, I'm going to call a few L's. I made a list of names already. I need to continue to move forward on this path.

- I still haven't confronted H about his affair and don't intend to until I have a legal strategy in place and am ready to pull the trigger on filing D.

- I started taking antidepressants and they are helping me. I'm functioning pretty much normally. My anger has subsided considerably. I feel like I am in much more control of this situation. I'm sleeping better too.

- I've been spending a lot of time on attachment theory - dismissive avoidant specifically. It turns out that MLC men are quite similar and a lot of them are avoidant. My H certainly has all the traits of a dismissive avoidant, including shutting down, secrecy, desire for independence, feeling controlled, defensiveness and not being vulnerable or open. This attachment style is basically a disaster in relationships. All of this research has helped me not take any of this personally and learning all of this was a big turning point for me.

- Dismissive avoidants also seek dopamine hits constantly. Basically any addiction is a source of dopamine. My H was not an addict but he definitely had reward seeking behavior - Twitter, ice cream and then eventually AP. They also lack the emotional capacity for bonding. I can see that in him too.

- I have a feeling that AP may not be in the picture any more. Not sure, but the Google calendar entries have ceased and H has dropped the cocky attitude that he had a few months ago. Not surprising if that relationship ran its course - though I have no proof. Someone as insecure as my H would never last in a polyamorous situation. This could also be the reason he's sniffing back around here. If AP is gone, he's testing the waters back at home. I asked H what he was doing the day after Thanksgiving and he shrugged and said "Nothing." Who knows. Just a hunch.

- On his way out tonight he peeked into the kitchen to see what I was doing - to see if there were any Thanksgiving pies in progress. I am an accomplished baker. I guarantee you that AP is not.

- I have been sticking to my DB principles. Can't go no contact because there are logistics to work out, but have not been contacting for any other reason. I always make it seem like I have a million things going on, so busy, so much GAL, work is awesome and life is awesome. Put on makeup and got out of my sweatpants. I successfully DB'd 12 years ago. Circumstances were different but this feels like he's starting to come back around.

- If nothing else I'd like to have some closure and I'd like to have the opportunity to really get a lot of this out on the table. He has been completely withdrawn from me for a full year (first BD was the day before Thanksgiving last year when I found a book about BDSM and a book about polyamory on his kindle, which he was unknowingly sharing with me. Of course he denied having an affair). This isn't at all fair and I haven't had the chance to participate in any of his one sided decisions.

[DnJ]

Good Morning R

Happy Thanksgiving. I hope today’s festivities go well.

I agree with you, it appears likely that AP is no longer in the picture. Also, these special times - Thanksgiving, Christmas, Birthdays, etc - do bring these folks out of the woodwork. Often, after the celebrations are over, they fade back. However, some do remain more awaken and present. Time will tell for H.

He will not change until the pain of not changing exceeds the pain of doing the work.

Very true. It is a rare person who embraces the hard work before the pain of not, becomes their driving force.

Unfortunately the modern world has plenty of shiny distraction. Purposeful distractions designed to pull one’s focus away. These “shiny” distraction provide instant dopamine. And yes, can be/are quite addictive.

he doesn't really ask how I am and he kind of defaults to looking at his phone during these conversations.

Most are confused and depressed. Couple that with feelings of starting to return home. The fear of reprisals, judgements, etc. Quite a brew of emotions. These folks’ emotions are cranked to eleven, and they presently have no bandwidth for anyone or anything else. (And that shiny non judging phone full of validation and fun things is so alluring.)

The lack of empathy, caring, and such is pretty common for one so consumed. The return of, the display of those buried traits, illustrates some awakening/healing.

I successfully DB'd 12 years ago. Circumstances were different but this feels like he's starting to come back around.

I would like to save my marriage but I need to set some serious boundaries which include honesty and openness.

It does appear that H is poking around, testing the waters. Be pressure-free. And have rock-solid boundaries on disrespectful behaviour.

If nothing else I'd like to have some closure and I'd like to have the opportunity to really get a lot of this out on the table.

In time.

Demanding answers will have H running in the opposite direction. Give him opportunity to bring stuff forward. And until he does, minimal interaction. He can feel the loss. He can lay in the bed he made.

A boundary on lying would be excellent. When H tries to lie, you leave the room. Right then and there, shut down the conversation. H, when you are not truthful, I will not speak with you.

Place the ball in his court. H can decide his course, and will be held accountable. No hounding him. No demanding of him. Just you controlling you. And letting H dig the hole deeper, or choosing to do better.

If/when H is better healed and grown up, yes this stuff needs to get out on the table. Be patient.

And I totally agree, this not at all fair. The LBS unsurprisingly gets the lion’s share. After all, our spouse is certainly not capable in the present moment.

Have a great day. A fresh baked pie sounds awesome!

D

[RegretfulLA]

Thanksgiving went well. We gathered at my brother's house and it was very casual. H was slightly reserved but I think he felt grateful to be included. He did sit next to me at dinner though we're not really interacting much.

At the end of the night, we were all hugging and saying goodbye and it felt appropriate to give him a hug - I got a nice big squeeze and a kiss on the cheek. To me that signals affection and intention, but I'm not going to get hung up there. It's a far cry from "I'm miserable living here" which is basically the last thing he said before moving out, but their brains are mush and nothing they say or do is really reliable. I'm seeing it as a weak positive sign and nothing more.

Today H came over to watch college football with the boys. He showed up at 9 am with bagels (as I predicted - he likes bagels). Made himself right at home. They watched football, they watched soccer - and he stayed here for 5 hours. 5 hours!! Took a little nap on the couch. Asked if he could have some leftover pie (I obliged). The boys could have easily gone to his apartment but of course he wanted to be here at home.

I sat there on the couch with him until he was ready to leave. No pressure, no R talk, but I'm glad he's feeling comfortable to at least spend time here. Funny, it kind of reminds me of a few years ago when my 2 dogs started fighting and I had to keep them separated for a time. Gradually they came back together but it took a long time before they were able to sit next to each other peacefully.

Boys are going back to school tomorrow so I probably won't see much of him until they are home for the holidays in 2 weeks. No hug or anything when he left today. Ok then.

Last night I wrote down my boundaries. On the surface they seem very simple but to a dismissive avoidant in MLC they would probably seem insurmountable. Transparency and an actual effort to interact and be interested at the top of the list. My sister said "Well it would be great if he could turn into a completely different person" and we had a good laugh.

I am still going forward with putting the pieces in place for a D. Find lawyer, understand all of my rights and what I stand to lose and gain. Face the possibility head on so it no longer is that big scary thing. Get comfortable with the idea. Continuing to live my life as if he is not coming back.

Demanding answers will have H running in the opposite direction. Give him opportunity to bring stuff forward. And until he does, minimal interaction. He can feel the loss. He can lay in the bed he made.

A boundary on lying would be excellent. When H tries to lie, you leave the room. Right then and there, shut down the conversation. H, when you are not truthful, I will not speak with you.

Place the ball in his court. H can decide his course, and will be held accountable. No hounding him. No demanding of him. Just you controlling you. And letting H dig the hole deeper, or choosing to do better.

If/when H is better healed and grown up, yes this stuff needs to get out on the table. Be patient.

I know that this will take a lot of time. I'm 54 and tick tock... not getting any younger here. Him expressing an intention to TRY would be a big step in the right direction. Just honestly TRY. Doesn't mean we stay together - it just means the door is open a little longer.

Our trial separation was intended to be 6 months - he signed a 6 month lease - so that would be ending in February unless he chooses to extend. We are halfway through now. We will have to have a conversation at some point in the next 3 months. I was planning to ask him to meet with our marriage counselor and then bring up his affair - basically just saying, "I'm aware that you have been having an affair for several years and I know who your AP is."

What do people think of that approach? I have greatly benefitted from the time and space he has given me and I don't feel the need to rip his head off. Or, should I continue to hold onto that information? Obviously he's not moving back here (if he so chooses) if he wants to continue with AP, so if moving home is his intention, we have to discuss it and set boundaries. Things were so bad for the last year. He treated me horribly and I'm not willing to go through that again.

[DnJ]

Good Morning R

At the moment, leave the ball in H’s court. He moved out. He signed the 6 month lease. He’s got a few months to come forward and start a discussion.

As you said, their minds are mush, and H will very likely not do anything for a while, leaving coming back or re-leasing to the last minute. Both of which could very well get derailed if he doesn’t display/take on his responsibilities.

This was an agreed to, 6 month trial separation. It is therefore implied, and not unreasonable, that answers/direction are due at the end of it. It would be perfectly fine to find out what the heck is going on. If nothing transpired before, I’d bring it up at the end of month five.

So, two months. What to do?

Crank up the heat. Let him feel the loss. Let him experience this trial.

You have boundaries. State them. And stick to them.

You know what kind of treatment you do not want, again.

If H violates your boundaries or treats you like before, enact consequences. Pull back. Let him stew.


I do see hope here. However, timelines.

By the end of month six, what are you hoping to see? What displayed behaviours? What said words?

My view of what to shoot for (with some prognosticating ): H likely will not bring up any serious talk. Therefore, at the end of month five, you bring it up. If discussions go reasonable, and H wants to return, he is still going to re-new another 6 month lease.

6 months to prove he is over AP. That is absolutely no contact! Period! H must be 6 continuous months of no contact with AP. If he reaches out, for any reason, the timer resets. And he starts another six months. (By the way, for me I’d utilize 12 months. A full year!)

To me, returning, the desire to return, needs to be that strong. The willingness, the displayed willingness and behaviour needs to be that strong. H has to prove he has changed.

It’s a big demand. Well, actually not, for one who has truly changed.

Anyhow, the 6 months is also a time of dating. Further proving he wants to be with you, and displaying his new and improved self. It’s also a time of displaying your new and improved proved self.

You’ve made sincere positive changes. Gained much hard-earned wisdom. Stuff you are not willing to hide or toss aside. H might not appreciate your growth.

I consider if my XW and I were ever to date again. It’s been seven years, lots has happened in my life. I’ve gained so much. And I will not sell myself short. I would likewise suspect, her years have altered her as well. We might not be compatible. Hence, you dating H before moving back in.

That’s the approach or road map I’d consider. H is going to re-new his lease, regardless. You will likely have to bring up the discussion. Counselling and such will occur during the following half year (and likely beyond).

H still needs time and space. Give it to him. Let him choke on it. You don’t want him running again.

Have a great Sunday.

D