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#2944690 03/31/23 02:21 AM
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I’ve been reading posts here for the past few days. Stumbled across the “Odds and Ends of MLC: Link” thread and my jaw nearly dropped to the floor. Felt I could have been writing so many of these words from my own recent experiences. The “Three Lessons” posts by ‘Tom K’ were particularly uncanny. Is it MLC? WAS? Does it matter? Probably not but after 4 months of hell I figure I could use some support…

W and I are in our late-30s. No kids. We have been together for 10 years and married for 7. She was my best friend and I believed we had a great marriage and incredible future. We have been through a lot together. We met in a different country. W joined me in current country around 6 years ago. We spend more time apart than many couples due to W’s work which is travel-based with headquarters in a different city. But we have always spent loads of quality time together. Of course no one thinks something like this will happen but until recently I believed us to be as connected as any couple I know.

No marriage is perfect but we didn’t have any major recurring relationship issues or personal issues that may lead to marital issues. Of course we had disagreements at times as all couples do but always worked together to resolve them. The biggest change in our lives happened 2 years ago when I graduated from professional school and we to a new city where I began my career after many years of study. We loved our new home and the opportunity for adventure in the surrounding area. The move also brought challenges 1) stress of navigating the beginning of a demanding profession for me 2) longer job-related travel for W.

BD was in November. W sat down and “out of the blue” started talking about how unhappy she was - I wasn’t working out enough. I wasn't engaging in hobbies. I wasn't doing enough around the house. I was stressed with work. I didn’t buy tickets to an event that I should have known she wanted to attend... Suddenly she was talking about our relationship in the past tense. I had no idea what was happening nor how to make sense of it. At the end of the conversation I suggested that we start MC straight away and that I could start addressing all of these concerns immediately. Her response was to sleep on it. I was in shock. The following days were filled with tension but we spent them all together. No more talk of BD. A few days later I took her to the airport to get her to work and a previously planned trip to see family friends in a different country. No clue what was on her mind – too scared to ask.

One week later she told me she needed space and asked that I not message/call. Two weeks later she returned and gave me the classic “ILYBINILWY”. She told me she was going to leave again and spend the holidays back with the family friends and was also hoping to get leave from work in January.

She ended up being gone over the holidays for a total of 6 weeks. We did a few online MC sessions but it was clear her intention was to invalidate the R rather than work on it. The timeline of W’s unhappiness kept going further back in time. The reasons for unhappiness continually shifted and seemed to get increasingly ‘trivial’. Some issues were blown way out of proportion and others were invented out of whole cloth. A month into her absence W told me she planned to move to the city where her work is headquartered. W admitted she had not thought about any logistical pieces such as getting own bank account, credit cards, etc… At the end of the 6 weeks she came home to “pack her things”. W asked me to pick her up at the airport and I obliged but found the request out of alignment with her stated intention. We had an R talk the first night she was back. Home for 4 nights. We spent them together - eating dinner together, watching TV together. Tension and no intimacy but she was smiling, laughing at jokes. No more R talks. W didn’t end up packing anything. W didn't acknowledge having not packed anything but said moving a few items out of shared bathroom was challenging enough. I was beyond confused.

My confusion peaked about a week following this event and some text messages W sent in the meantime. I called and asked what was actually happening. W said she was sorry and wanted to talk but couldn’t talk on the phone because it was too painful. W came home the next week. When asked what the intentions to return home were (i.e. to talk? to talk and pack things?) W stated she couldn’t say and just wanted to talk in person. On the first night we had another R talk. She said she wanted to separate but wasn’t certain she wanted the R to end. She said we needed to talk to a MC again. She packed her things the next few days and put them all into one room. On the final night at home W cried and said she was sorry. Said she was confused. Asked me to give her a break. Asked me for a ride to the airport the next morning.

She took more time off work and went back to her safe zone in the other country. 1 week later - after having sent some messages that felt like connection - she sent me an email with more new reasons for her unhappiness and said she wanted to “live separately and then separate when the time comes.”

2 weeks later we had an MC session. She still couldn't say the D word but when asked if that's what she wanted she said yes. This was the first time she stated a clear intention of wanting to end the R. W blamed me for not having understood this long ago despite her never having said it and all the mixed signals. She seemed cold and angry - convinced that I have done her wrong. I said I don’t believe D is the right path for us but I understand she feels this way. I stated clearly that she would have to file the D. That I will not try to stonewall or avoid but that I will not initiate something that I don’t have a clear conscience about. She says she doesn’t think now is the right time to get lawyers involved - "maybe in a couple of months'. We have had no contact for a week -- the longest period of time since BD. I realize this the only path forward at this point.

Wrap up
In hindsight I wish I had done many things differently. However, I can honestly say that since the BD I have not been ‘actively’ pursuing or pleading. I have been focusing on myself and have learned/grown a lot personally. I see that despite great patience in my moments of peak confusion when W came home and was unable to say that she wanted the R to end I tried to rationalize/understand in a way that was very much felt as pressure by her. I imagine the pressure felt very intense. I’ve realized throughout that W was acting purely from emotion with no logic whatsoever but I did not have a comprehensive view that this forum has given me. I am now working to detach. I’m preparing myself for what I think is more inevitable confusion to come. I welcome the support of this group going forward.

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Hello URS0

Welcome to the board. I am pasting Cadet’s welcome post for your reference. Please read the links, they contain lots of useful information.

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by Michele Weiner-Davis. The following link is the first chapter:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/sb_the_divorce_remedy.htm


A few other books by MWD:

http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm


And Michele's articles.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm


Once your registration to the site has been completed you can post and start a thread. Please have only one thread active at a time (per forum); it keeps your situation organized and is easier for those following along and posting to you. There are a few forums which help categorize posters’ situations.

When your thread reaches 100 posts, it will be time for you to start a new thread. It is a good idea to link your old thread to your new one, and even link the new one back to the previous one. That makes it easier for the folks following your story. (There is a help thread on linking in the sticky threads at the top section of the forum’s display.) A moderator will “close” your full thread which prevents further posting to it. It is still available to read.

Post in small frequent replies on your thread. Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity can be very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.

Post on other people’s thread to give support.

Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

DnJ

Last edited by DnJ; 03/31/23 10:47 AM. Reason: Corrected link.

Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Hello U

I am sorry the rug was pulled out from under you.

It definitely sounds like your W is experiencing some deep emotional turmoil or crisis. As you have seen, her path will be driven by her emotions. She will project fault(s) upon you, for while consumed in her emotional torment she cannot handle being wrong. And yes, at times those faults can be rather trivial, petty, or just made up. One of my XW’s justifications for her exodus from our 26 year marriage and 31 year relationship, was that the furnace vent blew air on her.

Currently you are her target of what’s wrong; the reason for her unhappiness.

Give her time and space. In time, hopefully she will realize that “hey, URS hasn’t been bothering me for a while, and yet I’m still unhappy.” Then with some good fortune she might start to consider that she is the cause of her unhappiness, and she will start to look inward instead of blaming you, friends, family, the world.

You did good stating you don’t want a divorce and she is to do the heavy lifting. There is no point repeating that. And no relationship talks, those will just push her away.

Keep pressure to a minimum. Her emotions are cranked to eleven and she cannot handle much of anything else. Pressure, stress, and such; and she will run.

Focus on you. Work towards detachment. GAL.

You have the gift of time, use it wisely.

I look forward to conversing with you.

D


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Originally Posted by Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.


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Welcome to a great place for support.

Originally Posted by URS0
....my jaw nearly dropped to the floor. Felt I could have been writing so many of these words from my own recent experiences....I figure I could use some support…....I’m preparing myself for what I think is more inevitable confusion to come. I welcome the support of this group going forward.
Everyone here has written almost the same open post, with just difference in the "non-important" details.

It appears to me that you are further ahead in dealing with this rationally than most new posters. If this site is triage for marriage, you are not bleeding as bad as most. With that said, you have lots of personal growth work to do.

It is like a big onion. Many layers. Peel off the big easy layers first. We will talk in generals, but we need specifics from you to be able to effectively help you.

For example, I believe that it is extremely important for you to change the way you interact with her, as well as the way you interact with others. Your behavior in general can also be improved. For you to know what to change, you needed to take a hard look at yourself and do a lot of research into attraction (as well as other topics).

You have qualities that women in general find attractive and other qualities that women find unattractive. Pretty easy to drop the unattractive behaviors, if you are aware they are unattractive. Then you can start adding new behaviors that you don't have that make you more attractive.

Go down the rabbit hole researching attraction. Understand how women test their men and learn how to pass the tests. Understand how supplicating a woman will destroy her attraction for her man.


If you read enough here, you can get yourself way ahead of her and predict everything she will do, and have a better way to respond than if you move ahead unprepared. Read as many of these quotes as you can, as quickly as you can:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2943653#Post2943653

As you go through this, you will get conflicting advise. For each decision you have to make, get as many options as you can so you can make an educated decision. Make your choice, and live with the consequences of that choice, good or bad. What worked for one poster may backfire for another, and what backfired for one poster may work for another. What works is counter intuitive. For example, most initially believe that talking things out will work, but my observation is that the opposite works better.

I wish you well during this difficult season of your life.

And one last thing, Don't be boring.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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DnJ, Cadet, & R2C - thank you for the welcome messages.

W texted me today for the first time in a week asking about possible dates to come home and move packed things out of our home. Using our home as a storage facility until a more convenient time was a boundary violation for me in the absence of a framework to work on the relationship in the meantime.

I'm under no illusion there is some perfect response. It is just strange for me as this is the first time I have received a message since having changed gears to detaching. I don't want to respond but I know that is childish. I guess a simple "yes, that works" will do.

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URS0,
Sorry you are here but you are in good hands.
Things are always quieter here at weekend - people GAL.
'Yes' sounds like the perfect response to me but I am not an expert in these things

What are you doing this weekend?

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Originally Posted by URS0
a simple "yes, that works" will do.
I agree.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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Good Morning U

Your proposed reply to W regarding what day to pick up her things is fine.

Are you planning on being present?

Is she currently living in a different city? Is she flying in again? If so, it’s highly unlikely she will be packing up / taking much stuff.

Do you and her have separate accounts, credit cards, etc? Is the house owned, mortgage, or rented? How much are each of you paying towards the house and bills? What about her living expenses while separated? How much of your finances are joint?

It’s necessary for one to have a good picture of their financial situation. How much risk they are assuming. You may have already prepared (as much as one can), and do not need to take any further current actions to ensure your financial security and protection.

Have you spoken to a lawyer yet? If not, do so. Knowledge is power. This is for information only. You need not act upon anything. However, you will learn where you stand. What the default is, what is negotiable, and what is not. And do not tell W. Keep this information to yourself. For the time being, W is not on team URS, she is on her own team.

You are walking two paths. One is the business side of things. The finances, money and assets, as you have no custody issues. When dealing with business, remain business-like.

The other path is one of emotions, of healing and becoming whole. Becoming the best version of yourself. A man only a fool would leave. This is the bulk of one’s journey.

Hope you having a great Saturday.

D


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Hey DnJ,

Originally Posted by DnJ
Are you planning on being present?
D

It's a couple weeks away but as of now I do. She will be in town for a few days; not certain if she is staying in our home again or somewhere else. I have a better understanding of the circumstances now and am therefore in a position to not get emotionally caught up in what I previously interpreted as "confusion". With this in mind, I think it is wiser for me to stay in our home than to "flee".

Originally Posted by DnJ
Is she currently living in a different city? Is she flying in again? If so, it’s highly unlikely she will be packing up / taking much stuff.
D

Yes, flying in from a different city several thousand miles away. She has packed most of her personal items. No clue how many shared items she will want to pack. As you stated I assume relatively few. I get the sense she is not ready/willing to encounter the heaviness that accompanies the necessary discussions to pack/take items that are more clearly mutually owned.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Do you and her have separate accounts, credit cards, etc? Is the house owned, mortgage, or rented? How much are each of you paying towards the house and bills? What about her living expenses while separated? How much of your finances are joint?
D

Accounts have been separated as of about 3 weeks. Removed her as an authorized user on credit cards. The house is rented. I am staying in the home and plan to pay for the relevant expenses at this point. Frankly, my income is an order of magnitude higher than hers. Her expenses are her own at this point. The last real separation that needs to happen is for her to get a separate cell phone plan. I've asked her to do this a couple weeks ago. If she has not completed this by the time she comes to get her things I will review this with her in person. I suppose an alternative is to simply remove her from our plan without any further comment.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Have you spoken to a lawyer yet?
D

No, I have plans to do this very soon

Thanks for the insights.

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I’d bet $1000 your wife is having another relationship.

It explains the push/pull of wanting to separate and then suddenly peering back in.

It explains why when she’s away she’s resolute about taking steps towards divorce, but when she’s at home with you she drags the chain and says she doesn’t know and feels sorry for what she is doing.

It explains why she is re-writing history - because she can’t face her decisions, so she needs to make it your fault. Best way to do that is to re-write history, with a side dose of “You didn’t even notice I was unhappy in our marriage for many years, so now I have no choice.”

DNJ’s air vent story is classic rewriting of history. Mine said “I had to leave because you were too nice to me when I was a b*tch.”

She has plenty of opportunity because she goes away all the time. I bet she is protective of her phone.

You moving to start a new career (and her being further away from work and her crush) was the straw that broke the camel’s back. She started to build resentment that she was further away from him/her, and you were the logical person to start blaming.

Why am I telling you this? Not because it changes your strategy. DBing is DBing. Regardless of why she’s doing this, you need to do the same thing - read, reflect, grow, place yourself first, get hobbies, exercise, find an IC. Be strong, unaffected, charismatic and dis-interested in her. YOU CAN’T POSSIBLY GIVE HER TOO MUCH SPACE. Always remember that.

The reason I’m telling you she is most likely having an affair - to help you mentally prepare for when it comes along.

You seem pretty level headed. She’s on an emotional roller coaster which has just left the boarding station. You can jump on board and get tossed about, or you can watch from the sideline and let her ride it out.

DBing is a 3-5 year commitment before they start to peer out of the tunnel. You’ll either
a) not give her enough space and unknowingly put the final nails in the coffin
b) get sick of the drama/run out of patience and decide you deserve better
c) you’ll be super patient and give her loads of space, and maybe you’ll end up together in many years from now

Lawyer. Counsellor. Space.

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I agree with K18 that your wife is likely involved with someone else. Likely this someone else is also married. That is where your confusion comes from. The OM pulls her, she is then sure she wants to end things. When he pushes her away, she then wants to make sure you are still plan B. This is a very common dynamic at play with a cheating spouse that is unsure of their future with the OP.

The good news is that it changes nothing you should be doing. Get a life. Self improvements. Detachment. Those are your focus.

Stop picking her up from the airport. Stop being willing to help her with things like packing. Remember, she is firing you as her husband so stop doing the things a husband does. Also I'd end MC for now. She is using it to soften the blow for you and to ease her own guilt. Plenty of walkaways have said "we tried everything, even MC!" Just tell her "I've decided MC is a waste of time. I have a lot to sort out myself so will be doing IC instead."

Keep posting. We're here to help!


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Originally Posted by SteveLW
I agree with K18 that your wife is likely involved with someone else. Likely this someone else is also married. That is where your confusion comes from. The OM pulls her, she is then sure she wants to end things. When he pushes her away, she then wants to make sure you are still plan B. This is a very common dynamic at play with a cheating spouse that is unsure of their future with the OP.
Both are living in a fantasy world. Fastest way to pop that bubble is to push them together. Most wait to long.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Both are living in a fantasy world. Fastest way to pop that bubble is to push them together. Most wait to long.
I don't think "Push them together" is the correct word choice, but I can't edit the post.

They both are only dealing with the "good" parts of a relationships and do not have to deal with the "bad" traits of the other person. The LBS's get to experience that part. When we have enough self respect not to tolerate their bad behavior and set good boundaries, they can either choose to end the affair or move out.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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R2C we know what you meant. Let them get together and see the bubble eventually burst.

My only add is the LBS should never sit around hoping that happens. They should instead move their life forward. If it happens while the LBS is still interested in the WAS, then they can proceed from there.


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Thanks everyone. I understand that there is likely an affair partner at this point. This will cushion the blow if this ever comes out into the open.

I’ve come to understand through the wisdom of this forum that detaching is crucial. It’s truly been a gift. It’s counterintuitive but I can see (when I take a deep breath and step back) that trying to do, say, or even think about “the right thing” to improve the relationship is bound to fail. Analyzing all the little “signals” or “mixed messages” keeps you trapped in a loop that will inevitably lead to your partner feeling pursued even if it is in the slightest ways (body language, tone of voice, etc…)

I’m reminded of the phrase “Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.” Go slow to go fast? Yes, deliberate and well-planned movements will get you across the finish line quicker than rushed, frantic ones. If you love your spouse and care about the relationship the only thing you can do to ever have a hope of getting across the finish line is to detach, let them be, and focus on your own life. Unfortunately this is not a switch you can simply flip. It’s a process everyone must go through on their own. I’m early in the process but I think reading the wisdom on this forum has helped me conceptualize this and the pure repetition with which it appears throughout can really speed up this process.

I will continue to post here as this journey continues. Thank you everyone.

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Quote
I’ve come to understand through the wisdom of this forum that detaching is crucial.

Detaching is an interesting one. There’s pretending to be detached to try and manipulate your spouse into wanting you back, and then there’s actually being detached.

How do you do this? Well that’s an interesting question!

Part of it is fake it until you make it. Force yourself into hobbies, renovations, work, exercise, counselling, reading and personal development. This reduces the amount of time you depend on your spouse and their company, so it starts the detachment ball rolling.

The other, much more important part of detaching, is working on your mental health. It’s rebuilding your self worth and confidence and independence. At the moment, you can’t picture a life without your spouse because it’s all you know. So you hang onto what you know (bumping into them, messages, communication, slowing down the divorce or them moving out).

When you truly come to love yourself, then you’ll drop the codependency which is actually why most people end up at this website. When you KNOW you’ll be okay with or without your spouse, you won’t have so much skin in the game. You won’t try to engineer time with them. You won’t get drawn into relationship discussions where they’re trying to confirm they’re doing the right thing, you won’t delay the divorce process hoping they’ll wake up.

And once they see their security blanket is no longer there, that’s the best chance you have that they might realise what they’re losing. Ironically, if you’ve REALLY detached, by the time they decide they might be interested, you’ll likely prefer the look of life without them.

Don’t detach to manipulate them back. Detach because you’re worth it, and you’re going to be happy with or without them.

IC is the best way to rebuild yourself and work towards true detachment.

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I’ve been doing well the past couple weeks. Changing out some photos around the house, bought an exercise bike, more cooking, more reading/audiobooks/podcasts. Feeling more energized and more like myself again.

In anticipation of W coming back next week to collect her things I can’t deny feeling more sadness and some anxiety. Not about what the future holds but about what has been lost - for what feels like no reason.

She sent me an email today with a list of things she wants to take when she comes next week. The list includes very broad categories (mugs, some appliances, decorations) and would include many things that I have a right to as much as her. I imagine she senses that she is leaving a lot behind but I don’t want to just green light these items. I don’t want to get into a feud over Knick knacks and seem spiteful but I also feel I need to hold my ground calmly but firmly.

I will take some deep breaths and consult this wise group before responding in any way.

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I will add that the message was so vague and dispassionate that it feels completely inconsiderate. I appreciate the attempt to set the stage for her return in terms of expectations but it was so inadequate that it is almost worse than had she shown up unannounced.

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Pick a couple of items that she will likely want, not because she will want them but because you use them, and make them non-negotiable. Mugs and decorations, who cares? Appliances (I am assuming small appliances?) Pick a couple you will absolutely not part with and then let her choose from the rest. Pick your battles wisely. Mugs and decorations are easily replaced. Small appliances likely are as well, and how often do we seriously use small appliances. In my case there is a water boiler (cup and mug size, heats water at a fast rate), coffee maker and a very nice blender which would be my non-negotiables. Every thing else she could have.

Try to detach your emotions. Lots of LBSs assign meaning to things when it is really about feelings towards the WAS. "I don't want to let her go so it don't want to let that waffle iron that I only use once in a blue moon go." Avoid that trap. Use logic and reason over emotion and feeling.

You've got this!


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I was the one who left the house. I collected all the kitchen items I wanted and set them on the dinning room table for her "blessing". She took back the kitchen aid mixer. I bought a new one. No need to quibble, especially if you both have to pay lawyers to do it.


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Wife supposed to be coming back to town tomorrow to take things. Trying to prepare myself mentally. Appears she finally got a new cell phone plan after I reminded her of the need to do this. I'm glad she did but for some reason it still feels like a gut punch.

I see pictures of her occasionally on social media. She looks so happy. I don't wish her misery by any means but it is paradoxically disheartening to see her doing well. I understand that these photos are just a snapshot in time and that I don't know what is going on under the surface - could be the turmoil that I expect. Not necessarily looking for answers/solution to this phenomenon. Just wanted to put the words down and get it off my chest.

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URSO, have you given any thought to shutting down social media, at least temporarily? I find that so many LBSs are tripped up by it. And even use it as a form of snooping.

Better to not see it.

Also when she comes to get things, I'd make myself scarce of possible. Little good can come out of interacting with her so be out GAL!


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Good Morning URS

I remember when my W got her own cell phone plan too. Yes, it was gut punch.

I agree with Steve. Social media usually drags one around.

Those pictures are like you said, a snapshot, a moment in time, the outer facade. Realize your W is running. To her everything is shinny and new. There is a bubbling cauldron of emotions and confusion within her, and she is going to keep herself busy so to not have to dig into that.

Do be scarce when she is picking up those items. Less interaction will likely be better.

Hang in there man.

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Everyone talks about validating. I would think there is a fine line between that and making it seem that you think their actions/behavior is acceptable. I have been treated terribly for the past months. She asks that this all be ‘amicable’ but has done nothing in the form of communication or otherwise to make it so. I don’t want to teach her a lesson in some sort of lesson but I also don’t want to give the impression that I agree with the path she is choosing or her actions in doing so.

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Originally Posted by URS0
Everyone talks about validating.
I use "Emotional Validation"

General pattern: Identify and acknowledge the emotion and Acknowledge the source.


From the internet:
For example, imagine that your loved one is behaving angrily toward you. If they have already communicated that they are feeling angry, simply demonstrate that you've heard them: "I understand you are angry." If they haven’t communicated their feelings, you might say, "You seem really angry. Is that what’s going on?"

What Is Emotional Validation
Emotional validation is the act of tuning in, acknowledging, and accepting another person’s feelings, even if they’re negative scarry. It involves listening to others express their emotions without ignoring, dismissing, belittling, rejecting, or judging them even if you do not agree with their emotional response.


Originally Posted by URS0
I would think there is a fine line between that and making it seem that you think their actions/behavior is acceptable.
Can't control other people. What you can do is control how you respond to them.

Originally Posted by URS0
I have been treated terribly for the past months.
Sounds like you need to set and enforce boundaries.


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Originally Posted by URS0
She asks that this all be ‘amicable’ but has done nothing
I just search "amicable divorce". You can clarify what your definition is by doing the same. IF she brings this topic up again, you can ask her what she means by amicable, and get clarification of her definition.

IF she get frustrated (or what ever emotion), then "emotional validate".


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URSO, validation is neither agreeing or disagreeing with what is being said, but understanding the feeling

"So when I don't take your phone call, it makes your angry."

"Just so I understand, you're saying you feel sad when my texts are too short."

See, you're aren't agreeing not to not take her calls, just letting her know you understand how it makes her feel.. Likewise with the short texts

Never ever validate if she gets disrespectful.

"You're a tiny little man for not taking my phone calls!!"

"I refuse to be spoken to like that." Then walkway or hang up.

Lots of newcomers miss these nuances. I think it's great that you asked about it instead of struggling with it.


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Hello URS

Validation is acknowledging that her feelings are valid. She has a right to feel how she feels. This is not condoning nor agreeing with her course or choices.

Actions she takes is where boundaries would come in. You need not tolerate disrespectful behaviour and/or language and such directly aimed at you.

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Went relatively poorly. I was very calm coming into it but she had things all over the house and wasn’t really prepared to discuss/iron out details as I had discussed. Poor communication on her part has driven this rollercoaster for the past months so I shouldn’t have been surprised. Not happy about it but I guess at least it’s over. At least when she asked for a hug I told her that wasn’t appropriate and that I didn’t want to see her tomorrow when she gets the last of her things.

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I thought she was having a mid-life crisis but more and more I wonder if maybe she just isn’t the person I thought she was.

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Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. Need to burn that one into my mind.

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Originally Posted by URS0
Went relatively poorly. I was very calm coming into it but she had things all over the house and wasn’t really prepared to discuss/iron out details as I had discussed. Poor communication on her part has driven this rollercoaster for the past months so I shouldn’t have been surprised. Not happy about it but I guess at least it’s over. At least when she asked for a hug I told her that wasn’t appropriate and that I didn’t want to see her tomorrow when she gets the last of her things.

Why did it go poorly? Sounds to me like it went really well 🤷‍♂️

You need to rethink how you see interactions. Until now, her being angry = you feeling like things went bad.

It may have been uncomfortable… but that doesn’t mean it was bad. You need to learn to get comfortable and unaffected by her being upset/angry/a bitch.

Telling her it wasn’t appropriate for a hug is gold standard DBing. Most of us would have emotionally crumbled and given her what she wanted. WELL DONE! As an aside… she probably wanted a hug because she knows her behaviour is shitty and she wants validation. If you hug her, in her mind, you’re giving her comfort - so she feels like you’re supporting her choices.

Lastly, on the validation… sometimes when you’re learning it can be hard to frame validation without sounding like you’re approving of their choices/words/behaviour. If you have trouble getting that balance right, rather than validate feelings, just parrot stuff back until you find your feet.

If she says: “I wish you’d made these changes earlier.”

Don’t say: “I understand how you must be feeling.”

Instead, say: “Sounds like you are saying you wish things were different earlier.”

That way they’ll at least realise you are listening, but you haven’t crossed the line into “I understand how you feel” territory. Waywards/walkaways can sometimes take “I can see how you might feel like that” as validation that the decisions they’ve made based on those feelings are also correct.

Another example, perhaps when she is collecting stuff from the house and says “This is really hard. I can’t believe it’s come to this!”

Bad: “Well then don’t leave” - comes across mega needy
Bad: “it’s hard for me too” - you are usurping her feelings with your own which means you aren’t listening to her. Waywards/walkaways/MLCers don’t give a s*t about anyone’s feelings except their own, so it’s a waste of time.
Okay: “I get that you’re feeling that way.” She might take it that you are supporting her decision because you said “it’s okay”.
Best: “Sounds like you’re saying today is really hard for you.”

Once you find your feet, and practice initially with mainly parroting, then you’ll be able to improve your validation as time goes on.

Also, practice validation outside of your relationship. Do it at work, or with your friends/family.

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During this process, learning new ways to communicate is important.

Originally Posted by URS0
I told her...I didn’t want to see her tomorrow when she gets the last of her things.
This sounds like an emotional response to me. A better way to DB is to go do something more important to YOU. You do not need to communicate what you are doing to her.



"I had (have) something important I need to take care of" is the thought process, and the words you could use if you really feel like telling her anything....again best not to tell her.

Fishing, shooting,biking,watching the game,reading at a coffee shop, watching paint dry...whatever...


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Originally Posted by URS0
I thought she was having a mid-life crisis but more and more I wonder if maybe she just isn’t the person I thought she was.

And what difference would it make if you knew it was option A or option B?

It matters not.

Trying to understand a WW/WAW is a ticket to the crazy house. What if I told you 1+1 = 3? Would you spend days thinking on it and trying to work out how I came to that conclusion?

I had real trouble with this, because I’m a problem solver in my job. I am trained to seek out facts, determine what (if anything is wrong), work out the correct solution and then apply it and then periodically take stock to make sure the solution is working. I approached my divorce the same way initially, and it’s a monumental waste of time. You can’t make sense of that which does not make sense. Once you get your head around that, you’ll DB much more effectively.

Read my thread on exercise, it has some stuff about rumination and why it’s not helpful. Better off spending that energy on things you can control.

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Originally Posted by Kind18
You need to learn to get comfortable and unaffected by her being upset/angry/a bitch.
This is an important skill to master: Maintain a calm and content emotional state no matter how the other persons emotional state is. You are an emotional rock for the woman in your life.


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Originally Posted by URS0
I thought she was having a mid-life crisis but more and more I wonder if maybe she just isn’t the person I thought she was.

Lots of LBSs have put their eggs in the "it's just a MLC basket". What trips up most people is that they believe a MLC is temporary. I prefer calling them "changes" not "crises". It could be that her new self is her permanent new self. A very wise poster that we haven't seen here in a while, sandi, used to remind LBHs that their wayward wife is not the girl you married!

So whether it's a MLC, or a new version of her, or she was always like this and repressing it changes nothing you should be doing.

And I'd like to echo that you're refusing her hug was great. As long as you did it with no emotion. No sadness. Remember, emotional detachment is stating your position without being down, angry or sad. I wasn't there but hopefully you just stated that it was inappropriate matter of factly, like you were refusing a total stranger a hug.


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The hardest part is that I know she is going to struggle. To the point that I am legitimately concerned. She agreed to take the older car with no argument. She did not start driving until last year and will be living in a city where she will not regularly be using a car. She has no idea how much auto insurance will cost her or experience going about attaining something like that. I struggle to see why she would even want a car. It is certainly her right and I don’t dispute that. It feels like an attempt to have some sense of control. It is old enough - and considering her lack of driving history - that I am very worried about her trying to get it thousands of miles to her new location. I know I need to move past those types of worries since she has fired me from being her spouse but it could blow back on me if an issue arises mid-journey. Obviously in her current state of mind these glaring issues aren’t even on her radar and I don’t know how to deal with that.

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Hello URS

I think you are correct that W does not have worries over some of these issues; glaring as they might be.

Originally Posted by URS0
…in her current state of mind these glaring issues aren’t even on her radar and I don’t know how to deal with that.

Why are you accepting the responsibility of her choices and actions? You didn’t break her, therefore you cannot fix her.

Part of her journey is experiencing the fallout and consequences of her choices. The growing up. The responsibility of it all.

You deal with it, by allowing her to walk her path.

Originally Posted by URS0
[The car] is old enough - and considering her lack of driving history - that I am very worried about her trying to get it thousands of miles to her new location. I know I need to move past those types of worries since she has fired me from being her spouse but it could blow back on me if an issue arises mid-journey.

What blow back can you foresee? It’s her car. She in operation of it. She’s an adult.

You don’t need to borrow trouble. We usually find what we are looking for. If one is looking for worry and problems, they will find them.

You can only control you. So, if the older car is truly in a condition that makes it unsafe, you could give her the newer and better vehicle. You could get the older car repaired and roadworthy. You could inform W of the problems with the older car (you really should inform her of the car’s condition good or bad). You could give her a money equivalent for the value of the car and she can purchase her own vehicle instead of driving thousands of miles.

The last option is the one my XW wanted. I offered her pick of our vehicles and she wanted cash instead. She wasn’t even thousands of miles away; her new residence was with OM, my neighbour.

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Thanks for your insights, D.

She asked which car I want and I told her. I thought she would bring these things up and we could discuss. I was waiting for her to do so rather then spoon feeding her this information. To do otherwise felt counter to DB principles; trying to let her take her own journey. Seems like she did not feel comfortable telling me which car she wants or discussing it at all. I’m guessing a lot of this is driven by guilt knowing it would be an imposition on me to take off with the newer car.

Again, I would guess she hasn’t thought this far ahead. She won’t be taking the car for at least a month when she moves to her new apartment. I will give her some time to process things once she has officially moved out this week and if I haven’t heard anything for a fee weeks I will bring up my concerns with safety and discuss giving her equivalent of the vehicles value.

Is this reasonable in your opinion?

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My vote? Leave her to figure things out for herself. It isn't your job to rescue her. Giving her the new car or paying to update the old car is something a husband would do. She is firing you as her husband. Don't keep doing the things a husband would do for someone that doesn't want you to be her husband.

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My vote? Leave her to figure things out for herself. It isn't your job to rescue her. Giving her the new car or paying to update the old car is something a husband would do. She is firing you as her husband. Don't keep doing the things a husband would do for someone that doesn't want you to be her husband.


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In terms of knowing she’s going struggle - not your problem.

That may sound harsh, but that’s the truth. I’d even hazard a guess that the nice guy, protective/supportive attitude is probably what led her towards divorce. It’s easy to divorce a supportive nice guy.

She and she alone is making these decisions. It’s not your problem to manage, fix, protect or support her. Why would you support someone who is ripping your family apart?

You really need to get some help on detaching and ignoring your nice guy instincts.

I knew it was going to turn to [censored] for my ex, but they won’t listen. She told me how much better off she was going to be without me while she was deep in her affair. A year later, she got dumped by OM, kicked out of her rental and was sleeping on the floor of her parent’s house. Play silly games, win silly prizes.

Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy?

As for the car, take whatever you can get. Trust me when I say this - you being nice now DOES NOT improve your chances of reconciliation. Fight your instincts.

This is now a business deal. If she’s feeling guilt about her actions and so she’s offering up a better split of assets as a result, run with it and get the best deal for you.

Separation, divorce, how you split money…. None of it means you can’t get back together one day. But for now, you need to protect and prioritise your future which is most likely not going to be with her.

The other thing, is women are attracted to strength. If you stand up to her, take the good car, demand a good deal and don’t try to placate her, she’ll actually respect you more. I know that’s hard to get your head around, but that’s how it works.

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Hello URS

You definitely do not want to spoon feed her. My point is, you’d not want to give her a known unsafe vehicle and she has an accident where she or someone gets hurt. You don’t want that on your conscience is all. If the car just runs rough and/or burns oil, yet the brakes and tires are good, no worries, say nothing.

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Well, 90% of her things are out. Guess she will collect the rest tomorrow morning before her flight. Some of the things she claimed to really want she didn’t even take.

Most DB techniques seem to be geared towards people who are still in each others lives to a certain degree. Is this the end of the road? I don’t want to believe that it is but I am also feeling emotionally exhausted after 5 months of confusion.

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Originally Posted by URS0
Some of the things she claimed to really want she didn’t even take.

Yep, they have no idea what they want or what they need. That’s what waywards/walkaways are like. Change their mind more often than the wind, and fight over things they don’t want just because they don’t want us to have them.

Mine told me she wanted to keep all the wedding photos. What, to show to your new boyfriend? 🤣🤣🤣

Originally Posted by URS0
Is this the end of the road? I don’t want to believe that it is but I am also feeling emotionally exhausted after 5 months of confusion.

Or was the road you were on a corrugated piece of sh*t?

And perhaps this is the start of a much better road, and a much smoother journey from here on?

The principles around DBing do not stop when your marriage does. They make you a more independent, confident, grounded and self-aware person. They make you a better listener. They make you a better future partner. Plus, you can leave your marriage knowing, hand-on-heart, that you did everything to try and save it. Double down on the DBing, counselling, exercise and GAL activities.

Hang in there URS0. Trust me when I say it gets better 💙

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W was unexpectedly still packing things when I got home from work today. In fact she was trying to move stuff around right up to around an hour before her flight. Left even more things behind than I expected.

I’m very proud of how I showed up in this moment. We had brief civil conversation. I did not get emotional. She made more very bizarre comments about wanting sentimental items - said I could keep a photo book from our wedding and she would have the person who made it print a new one. In what reality does that make any sense?!?…I didn’t let it throw me off course. I said goodbye and left on my own terms.

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DBing isn't about still being in each other's life. That's your emotions messing with you. I've known lots of couples that reconciled after D. Some many years after.

If you read DB or DR then you know about the Last Resort technique. Your above statement leads me to believe that you haven't read either of MWD's books. If you did then that statement indicates that you need to read them again.

As long as there's breath in both your bodies there's a chance at reconciliation. As long as you're willing to be open to it.

Having said that, the only way that will happen is for you to start moving your own life forward. That's what DBing is all about! Moving YOUR life forward. Sometimes the WAS gets attracted by that and comes back. Sometimes not. Either way your life will be moving forward.


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Caught a last minute flight this weekend to go visit friends in the sun. Nice to get away and be with people I care about.

Feeling lots of anger today. Anger about the loss of what could have been. Anger about the incredible selfishness that W continues to bathe in. Wishing I could just erase her memory.

Getting these thoughts out of my mind and into the page. Tomorrow is a new day. Begin again.

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Anger is definitely part of the process. I did some of my best DBing when I was angry! Sad and depressed was the other EVs of the spectrum.

You've got this, U!


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Let your anger be your armor.

But use it as your shield, not your sword.


Everybody hurts. It's part of life. Don't miss the good stuff.
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I know it is a fool’s errand to try and understand someone in such a frame of mind but I remain perplexed that W has not asked for any money. Not from me but from our joint savings. I moved our emergency fund to a high-yield savings account a couple of months pre-BD. It is technically in my name only but I have never been under any illusion that it is mine and if she were to ask for half of this I would transfer it to her without question.

I suppose it could be guilt associated with the realness of having to ask?
Proving to herself, me, and the world that she can in fact make it on her own?
Someone else supporting her?

I guess I know the only non-speculative answer to this question is that it doesn’t really matter. Sometimes writing things out like this is sufficient enough to clear it from the mind.

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Originally Posted by URS0
if she were to ask for half of this I would transfer it to her without question.
Most think it is 100% theirs. Good on you to have it safe.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Good Morning URS

Yes, writing things out does help to sort out one’s thoughts and feelings.

I think the drive to prove they can make it on their own is a pretty common force. Another common factor is they live more moment to moment, like pay check to pay check. Not worrying or planning or looking too far into the future.

Also, this usually only last so long, a finite amount of time.

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Struggling with my current paradoxical state of mind of not wanting to divorce but wondering when W will actually file and wishing if she is so hellbent to do so that she would get on with it.

Previously gave excuses about why she wouldn’t be able to do it for at least a couple months. This is just so hard for me to understand as I imagine if I felt the need to tear my life apart in this way I wouldn’t dawdle on taking this step.

Practicing mindfulness has helped deal with this and similar thoughts. But it always seems to creep back in.

Thanks for the support everyone.

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W texted me today saying she is coming to town tomorrow and is “sorry for the short notice.” She said she figures this would be a good time to “change the documents for the car” that she will take but to that it’s ok if this is “too short notice to do that.” Frankly I don’t even know what needs to be done other than her getting it titled/registered in her own name and get auto insurance with her name. She seems to think it’s something we will be doing together. I know that is not my responsibility to figure out. And her responsibility to give me proper notice if there is something I need to do.

Less than 24 hours notice is incredibly disrespectful. I don’t even want to dignify her with a response.

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Maybe you already have GAL plans


M:52 W: 51
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D26 S24 S21 D20
BD:2022
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I responded that I wouldn’t be available but that I’d park the car out front and leave the keys safely hidden outside. 12 hours after giving me 24 hours notice of her plans to fly home and get the car she says she won’t be home for a couple of days. She’s planning on going to a wedding instead…She just wanted to let me know ‘because of the keys’. The mind of a WAS/WW must truly be pure chaos.

Even a month ago this interaction would have knocked me out of equilibrium and caused me to spin. I’m proud of the progress I’m making; thanks in large part to the collective wisdom found here.

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Enjoyed my weekend. Trip to the coast with time at the beach, went on some nice long walks, did some spin classes, grilled some ribeyes, listened to some good podcasts.

Seeing pictures of W at my friends wedding that I wasn’t able to make it to and knowing she is here in town now but unable to communicate with me like a decent human being is hard.

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It’s the inability to communicate with me like a normal human being about things that have a direct affect on me that really bothers me at this point. I know she is in turmoil but surely she understands on some level that these things are not OK.

I’m fighting the urge to point this out to her. I know it is the truth but I know that she won’t be able to do anything with that truth. She will say “I’m sorry. I will do better” and then she will continue to wait to communicate anything with me until the last possible moment.

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Good Morning URS

Yes, often our spouse ceases sharing details with us. It is especially difficult with stuff that directly us and/or our family. My XW became so secretive.

Originally Posted by URS0
I know she is in turmoil but surely she understands on some level that these things are not OK.

Depending on just how far down the rabbit hole she is, she may not. Remember, their path is emotionally driven. And coupled with a whole lot of indifference for us. Details and things that matter to you, might not even be hardly a blip on her radar.

Originally Posted by URS0
She will say “I’m sorry. I will do better” and then she will continue to wait to communicate anything with me until the last possible moment.

Is she waiting to more forgetting or distracted? Her short timeline could be more from her ending up in such poor planned scenarios. They really do have the memory of gnat at times it seems.

The issue for you, and the good news, is control and expectations. You are expecting her to give ample notice. You are wanting some manner of control here.

Unmet expectations foster feelings of resentment. Those feelings build up and eat away at one. Resentment is like acid.

Dial your expectations to zero. You cannot control her, nor her behaviour, nor her scheduling, nor her communicating. You can, and do, control you. Thoughts, actions, and reactions. And your expectations are within your realm to let go of.

Also, assigning expectation to her, keeps you attached. Detachment, regaining control over your emotions, is reinforced and influenced well when one lets go expecting certain behaviours of their spouse.

Note: Expectations can be both for positive behaviours and negative behaviours. We need to dial both of those down. You will, oddly, still build resentment for unmet expected negative behaviours too.

Shift your focus upon you. When W has these last minute requests or reach outs, if it fits in your life, you can do it. Yet, if you have plans, and you likely would, the 24-48 hours rule before responding will help reschedule things.

A lack of planning of her part, does not constitute an emergency on your part. You can still be kind and cordial, compassionate, and so on. And detached.

D


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Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Thank you DNJ. I really appreciate this wisdom.

The counterintuitive-ness of DBing is easy to reckon with until W pops up and emotions kick in. That’s when I come here for reminders so that I don’t lead myself astray.

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W told me she wants to meet up to talk before she leaves town again tomorrow. I asked her what she wants to discuss and she just said she wants to talk about herself and have me kindly listen. I’ve been re-reading the validation threads and mentally preparing myself to not be drawn into an R talk.

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Originally Posted by URS0
W told me she wants to meet up to talk before she leaves town again tomorrow. I asked her what she wants to discuss and she just said she wants to talk about herself and have me kindly listen. I’ve been re-reading the validation threads and mentally preparing myself to not be drawn into an R talk.

Hi. I'm no expert, but yes, if you do meet her, just listen and validate as much as possible. If she starts escalating towards a fight, just say you have things to do and leave


Married: 15yrs
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Originally Posted by URS0
W told me she wants to meet up to talk before she leaves town again tomorrow. I asked her what she wants to discuss and she just said she wants to talk about herself and have me kindly listen. I’ve been re-reading the validation threads and mentally preparing myself to not be drawn into an R talk.

Should you go? What does you gut say? Trust your gut.

How much have you changed since BD? Has there been enough time for her to miss you?

If you don't meet her-- When will the next encounter be?


If you do decide to meet her, YOU lead. Pick a place that you like. Nothing romantic. Nothing with Sports Game TVs that will distract you. You tell her you have something important to do at 12, so you can meet her at 11AM. (or whatever time) This gives her one hour of your valuable time. You could make it 30 minutes. Get the idea?

For me, I never sit across from my lady. I sit next to her. You get there earlier than her and sit at the bar. She has to sit beside you. This is less adversarial positioning.

You STFU and listen. Validate her FEELINGS.


kindly listen= do not argue and do not share you point of view on things.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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⬆️ This 💯💯💯

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I did meet her. It was admittedly not as elegant as the scenario r2c recommended. I think reality never turns out as perfect as we plan or would like. But overall I look back and feel like it went as best as it could.

I listened and validated where ever I could. There were instances of spewing/fabrications that I could simply not listen to. I’m willing to hear a different perspective but I can’t abide a total revision of history. I kindly yet firmly enforced boundaries where necessary. It made her angry but I could also tell she kind of respected it. She didn’t storm off.

I told myself I would not allow it but I did get drawn in at times. She knows I feel the marriage could be saved and at one point she asked me to explain how I think that could happen. We’ve had that discussion before. I’m proud that this time I simply told her I don’t think it’s helpful for me to speak to this when you have been very clear in your actions that you don’t want any part of our marriage. She didn’t have much of a response which was an indication to me that as expected it wasn’t a sincere question but an opportunity to shoot holes through my truth to soothe her own self-conscious. It was around this point she said “I just need more time.” In the next breath she was talking about having not looked into divorce but that maybe we could get a mediator to “help figure out how to do this.” I calmly re-stated that I don’t have a clear conscience on pursuing divorce as a ‘remedy’ for our relationship and that she will have to lead if she thinks that’s the best.

We did talk about some of the dynamics that led to her feeling the way she was when she dropped the bomb. It actually felt like a genuine discussion and as productive as you could expect with a WW/WAW. At the end she said she thought it was a good talk and she even had a smile on her face. I said yes but it doesn’t change anything and that I’m not ok with any of this. She left.

While I am in a very different spot emotionally than I was in the first months following BD it is clear that she has not progressed at all in her own emotions and is very much stuck in the turmoil that led her to thinking this path was the best course of action in the first place. It’s sad but I know I can’t do anything about it for her. Back to focusing on my own life and moving forward.

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Originally Posted by URS0
It was admittedly not as elegant....I think reality never turns out as perfect as we plan or would like.
Never is, but at least you have the "ideal" to strive for. "Always do your best" gives us a great way to live.

Originally Posted by URS0
I listened and validated where ever I could. There were instances of spewing/fabrications that I could simply not listen to. I’m willing to hear a different perspective but I can’t abide a total revision of history. I kindly yet firmly enforced boundaries where necessary. It made her angry but I could also tell she kind of respected it. She didn’t storm off.
Definitely a balance. At times, I still get sucked into "man fixit mode" when listening to my lady. I can see that she just needs someone to listen to her. When I catch myself, I go back to listen mode.

Originally Posted by URS0
At the end she said she thought it was a good talk and she even had a smile on her face.
I am sure she felt like you listened. STFU really works. Validation on her emotions works. Setting boundaries works.


Originally Posted by URS0
I’m proud that this time I simply told her I don’t think it’s helpful for me to speak to this when you have been very clear in your actions that you don’t want any part of our marriage.
I believe this was a great statement. Hopefully others can pick it up and use it if needed.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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W texted me last night thanking me for giving her space to share what was on her mind when we met last week. She also shared with me what she was up to - a first in a couple of months.

I’m not suffering from any false impression that this represents some step in a positive direction for our relationship. I’m sharing this here because it helped me internalize some valuable lessons…

When W left last week my first thought was that it had been a total disaster. It had gone all ‘wrong’. I wanted to lash out and say/do something reactive. Thankfully a part of me sensed it was just my emotions. I did nothing and I went to bed.

By morning I realized clearly this first take was blatantly off base - clouded by emotions. The truth was as I shared in my last post. Sure, it might not have been perfect. But I was in alignment with my self.

While that realization happened quickly, I continued to assume that W’s interpretation was probably the same as my first impression - that I had ‘done her wrong.’ It’s not that I was sitting around stewing over what she thought about the interaction but if someone had asked I would have stated something to that nature. Her text last night was totally something I did not expect. While I’m not ascribing its content any significant meaning it was the first time she’s communicated with me for months in any way that felt remotely thoughtful or respectful. I consider that a small victory and I attribute it to basic DB principles.

Often it doesn’t feel like it but time is truly on your side. Sometimes you just need 8 hours - to realize your thoughts were leading you astray. Sometimes a week - to realize that your spouse had a different reaction than you anticipated in the moment. Sometimes months - to start finding yourself outside of the relationship that you felt defined you. And sometime years.

I continue to focus on what I can control - which is myself.

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Good Morning URS

Originally Posted by URS0
W told me she wants to meet up to talk before she leaves town again tomorrow. I asked her what she wants to discuss and she just said she wants to talk about herself and have me kindly listen. I’ve been re-reading the validation threads and mentally preparing myself to not be drawn into an R talk.

It sounded like the meet up went well. You mostly steered clear of R talk, or perpetuating it the times she brought it up.

And a week later she followed up with a text.

Originally Posted by URS0
W texted me last night thanking me for giving her space to share what was on her mind when we met last week. She also shared with me what she was up to - a first in a couple of months.

Keep on giving time and space.

Interestingly, she shared her feelings and what she’s been up to. As you recognized, that behaviour is different than her usual, up to now, behaviour. It may be she is starting to feel the loss of you.

It takes time for a spouse to burn through their emotions regarding us. Their angry justifying emotions. It’s then, that they may realize that they are still unhappy and we haven’t been involved for a good long while. Some then run further, not yet ready for anything else; lots do reach out to their LBS to stir things up and get another jolt of justification(s); and a few start to look inward towards themselves and the true cause of their unhappiness.

The process is slow. Glacially slow.

Originally Posted by URS0
Often it doesn’t feel like it but time is truly on your side. Sometimes you just need 8 hours - to realize your thoughts were leading you astray. Sometimes a week - to realize that your spouse had a different reaction than you anticipated in the moment. Sometimes months - to start finding yourself outside of the relationship that you felt defined you. And sometime years.

I continue to focus on what I can control - which is myself.

Most wise.

Feelings are fleeting. Beliefs take much longer. Focus upon self and keep moving forward.

Realize W is also walking a similar path of realizations. Although her time for awakenings and epiphanies is somewhat longer. I do suspect W is starting to notice you, the new and improve you.

Continue working towards the best version of yourself, and let her do what she will. All while you keep moving forward and living. You’ve got the gift of time.

D


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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At the airport. On my way to an annual fishing trip. Excited for a short week of work and another opportunity to get away for some quality time with friends.

I’m proud of the person I have become these past 5+ months. Excited about what the future holds. I am so grateful for this forum - especially the veterans who continue to share their hard won wisdom. For anyone reading this who is down on their luck please know that this gets better.

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Good Morning URS

Enjoy the fishing trip! How far a flight is it to the fishing hole? How long you spending there?

Some quality time with good friends is so very valuable and will surely recharge your batteries.

Have a fantastic time.

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About a 4 hour flight followed by 3 hour drive. Been doing this annual trip for 15 years. We had a great time as always. Heading back today.

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W informed me that she would be back in town for a few days this week. No clue what exactly she is up to but I realize it’s none of my business and is irrelevant.

Despite the progress I have made, I still feel knocked out of equilibrium in these circumstances. I guess if I’m being honest it is because there is some part of that hopes her presence will lead to some situation where she shows up and tell me this nightmare is over. Obviously I know this is not reality. When she is thousands of miles away this fantasy does not cloud my mind.

I’m working on maintaining the resolve to stay true to myself and not reach out to her. I ask for you all to bear witness to this resolve. I know it is the right thing to do. It is not easy.

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Originally Posted by URS0
I guess if I’m being honest it is because there is some part of that hopes her presence will lead to some situation where she shows up and tell me this nightmare is over.

If anyone on this site (or any other) tells you they never had these thoughts from time to time after BD - they’re lying. It’s totally normal mate.

Don’t try to fight it or hide it. The key with managing these thoughts is to do it for a short, fixed amount of time each day (search my post about rumination on my exercise thread). You let your imagination run wild for say 10 mins, then once your time is up, you get on with your life.

You need to reframe how you think about avoiding contacting her. At the moment, you say it as if it’s something terribly hard to do and you can’t get by.

Think of avoiding contact as depositing a small amount of money in the bank each day. At some point in the future, you’ll either be back together or you’ll be divorced and happy again. Avoiding contact each day is a small deposit towards that end goal. It will actually bring you resolution (however that might look) more quickly than if you find an excuse to make contact. Making contact undoes all that good work - like withdrawing all the money you’ve been saving and gambling it away.

Fours years in, I still have the occasional dream where my ex appears, begging for forgiveness and desperately trying to win me back.

Ironically, for me now, that is not a pleasurable daydream like it once was - but a horrifying nightmare 🧟‍♀️😳🫣

Time is funny like that…

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Good Morning URS

Kind is correct. Perfectly normal to have such thoughts and feelings. Purposefully allowing a short scheduled time for such wanderings is beneficial. It regains and exerts your control and influence upon the situation.

Originally Posted by URS0
I’m working on maintaining the resolve to stay true to myself and not reach out to her. I ask for you all to bear witness to this resolve. I know it is the right thing to do. It is not easy.

Good for you. Maintain your resolve.

I want to hear how you successfully didn’t reach out or initiate any interactions for the few short days she was there.

Stay strong. Stay busy. You got this.

D


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I don’t want to initiate contact. She does have a pile of mail here that she somehow needs to get. I was planning on just leaving it outside (as I have previously done with keys to the 2nd car) and letting her know in an email that it is there to be picked up. I have a couple other business items to include in the email that I would batch together.

I don’t know her new address where I could mail them nor do I need to. I don’t know where she is staying here in town that I could drop them off nor do I need to. If you have any alternative ideas to what I have proposed I would be appreciate them.

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If you don’t want to contact her about this can you just write return to sender and move on with your day?

Personally I’d send an email, let her know she has a week to change her address with the post office and in one week her mail will be at such and such place. Or drop them off in a relatives.


Me: 40
EX:37
Together 17 years
Married 16 years
5 kids, 20,18,15,14,11

BD 03/06/20, divorced 12/23/21
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Hi URS

I’d not worry about her mail over the next few days. Nor worry about the business matters either. Deal with those items next week. Your mind is looking for, and will seek, things that you “need” to do in order to justify contacting her. Let it go.

This is not to be mean to her. It is for you to prove, to yourself, you can do it. And will do it!

Do whatever you’d have been doing if she wasn’t in town.


As for the pile of mail. She moved out. Right? It’s up to her to change her mailing address with her various business and personal contacts.

If you’ve never discussed anything regarding her mail or address, then next week I’d let her know you received some mail for her and she needs to change her address. This is not a new concept to her. She’s made several trips to pick up items and even a car. If you’ve discussed the mail before, just drop the mail back at the post office and tell them that this person doesn’t live here anymore.

I’d keep the business items separate from this.


By the way, how many fish did you catch?

D


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Originally Posted by URS0
W informed me that she would be back in town for a few days this week. No clue what exactly she is up to but I realize it’s none of my business and is irrelevant.

Despite the progress I have made, I still feel knocked out of equilibrium in these circumstances. I guess if I’m being honest it is because there is some part of that hopes her presence will lead to some situation where she shows up and tell me this nightmare is over. Obviously I know this is not reality. When she is thousands of miles away this fantasy does not cloud my mind.

I’m working on maintaining the resolve to stay true to myself and not reach out to her. I ask for you all to bear witness to this resolve. I know it is the right thing to do. It is not easy.
It is not easy at all. But absolutely required.

You are being too nice.




Originally Posted by URS0
W and I are in our late-30s. No kids.
So what I hear you saying is there is absolutely no reason that the two of you need to interact. (If you had kids, then yes, you need to interact.)


Since she has been gone, are you more attractive to women in general? What is your metrix?



I believe the best action you can take is to ghost her. Reject her completely, not in a mean or ugly way, just in a way that lets you completely heal. If she comes begging you to take her back, then you can reconsider.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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Thanks for the input everyone. I appreciate having this resource to consult before taking any action with respect to the marriage. I will let it go while she is in town and not allow my subconscious to contrive any ways to initiate contact.

D, not as many fish as in years past but enough for an excellent dinner.

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Take initiating contact completely off the table. Act like you have a restraining order that will result in your arrest if you break it.


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Yesterday afternoon W sent me a picture of a funny meme. No text or anything else.

Temperature check? Hoping I will respond with a smile and relieve her guilt? I did not respond at all as I felt like there was no way to do so without denying our current reality as she seems to be doing.

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Good job. Remember, only respond to direct questions with the shortest answer possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers. Texts with no question require no response.

If later she asks if you got it you can say "Yes"


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Originally Posted by URS0
not allow my subconscious to contrive any ways to initiate contact.
Change the word initiate to allow is a much better idea.

If she initiates, you already have plans and are way too busy...plus it is disrespectful on her part for such short notice.....


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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Awe-inspiring him this morning. Grateful for this season of the year…and for allergy medication. Looking forward to the rest of the weekend. Cheers!

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Flew out for a job interview last weekend. Was offered the position a few days later. Negotiating contract details at this point. Quite confident that we will come to an agreement. Will amount to a 50% pay increase, an opportunity for greater autonomy, in a setting more in line with how I which to practice my profession. Will take me to a bigger city, with more opportunities for meeting people in my season of life and easier access to travel.

Through patience and introspection I thankfully have come to a point where I no longer feel the need to "flee" my current circumstances in order to find peace and contentment. But I do look forward to the opportunity for a fresh start. A blank canvas upon which to strengthen and deepen the positive changes that I have made amidst an unwanted and unforeseen situation.

I read something today that resonated with me. I think it goes to the heart of DB and I will share it here:

"Many bad things happen in life and it is a mistake to try to sentimentalize these moments away by saying that they must be happening to serve some higher good. But sometimes, when suffering can be connected to a larger narrative of change and redemption, we can suffer our way to wisdom. This is the kind of wisdom you can't learn from books. You have to experience it yourself. Sometimes you experience your first taste of nobility in the way you respond to suffering."

I am a modest person but I have allowed myself to indulge in the pride I feel about the way I have responded. I've indeed tasted nobility. And it's delicious.

Wishing a wonderful weekend to everyone!

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W coming to town this week for what I imagine will be the final. She’s having the car ‘shipped ‘ to her new location. I’d guess the cost is major chunk of what the car is even worth. Not my problem though.

All the photos, cards, mementos, etc…that a few months ago I wasn’t ready to part ways with I have nearly packed and placed in the car. Time to let them go.

Continuing to do well overall but I’ve had a few down days this past week. W’s birthday was a major deal in her mind and something that was always well celebrated. Strange not to be involved. I imagine what the first Christmas could feels like. Allowing myself to feel down but not dwelling in it.

For all intents and purposes we’ve been separated for 7 months now even though she only moved her things out 3 months ago. No talk of divorce proceedings. I continue to stand for the marriage as I still don’t have a clear conscience on personally choosing to end the commitment I made 7 years ago. For now this is still her show; I don’t want to take over the director role. But at some point, if she continues to neither move towards divorce nor back towards our relationship it may become my responsibility to take that action. I can continue to go about my own life on my for now but I of course have no desire to be legally married indefinitely to someone who is no longer a part of my life.

Cheers to the weekend everyone!

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Good update.

All I have to add is to focus on your personal growth. All the books and research I did definitely has helped in my current relationship.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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W has not filed for divorce. It seems she still hasn’t even met with an attorney. She says she is certain it’s what she wants but she is scared to even think about acknowledging what he process entails. I asked her what’s holding her back at this point after having moved out months ago and she says she is “scared of knowing we won’t be together.” Quite the cognitive dissonance.

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Originally Posted by URS0
I asked her what’s holding her back at this point after having moved out months ago and she says she is “scared of knowing we won’t be together.” Quite the cognitive dissonance.

Oh goodness URS0. As a female I can assure you when we know we want something we do it. She’s just keeping her options open( I guess like all these WAS we deal with). I should half expect the same thing from my WAH in the future.


M:41 H:48
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BD: 15/12/22 -moved out 17/3/2023
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W still hasn't made any official steps towards D. When I told her I was ready to collaborate on this and preferred to pursue mediation as a means to wrap this up she seemed taken aback. Now she says she has a consultation with a lawyer at the "end of the month."

The fact that after 8 months of separation and having moved her things to another state she has not once explored what divorce actually looks like blows my mind.

I am so tired. I don't recognize her anymore. I still love her (or the person I remember) but I don't have any hopes of reconciliation as she appears to no longer be a serious person capable of being a partner.

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You sound very strong URS0. Good on you!

Quote
I still love her (or the person I remember)

This is a really important distinction and indicates you understand what’s going on here.

It’s also the reason that stops many, many people on this site from DBing successfully and moving forward with their life. It’s been said once, it’s been said a thousand times - the person you once knew and loved is no-longer there, and what you covet (the old relationship with the old person) is simply not possible. Most times, that person that used to be has gone forever.

Keep your chin up, you’re doing great 👍

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I realized that our wedding anniversary recently came and went without me noticing. I consider this a sign that my DBing efforts have been successful and I am on a good path. Another reminder to anyone out there who is really struggling right now that things do get better.

Hope everyone has a good weekend. Cheers!

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Hello U

Very true. Things can, and do, get better.

Have a great Sunday.

D


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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UR, This has become crystal clear for me as well. Aligning my actions with my understanding with this clarity.


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Was cleaning out a closet yesterday in preparation for my upcoming move. Stumbled across a card from W given to me on our 5th anniversary. This would have been just 15 months before BD.

- “I’m so happy to have you in my life…”
- “I want to spend all of my life with you.”
- “You are my best friend and I love you so so much.”
- “I wish us all the happiness in the world as we walk towards the future - always together.”

I know that her current view of our shared history is a strange reimagined fiction that does not comport with reality. But there is something particularly jarring about reading her own words from a not so distant past. The pain of the loss continues to diminish each week but the mystery of what actually transpired to provoke her sudden flight remains. I suspect it always will. I’m trying to accept that.

In other news, I’m moving cross country in 5 weeks. Slowly packing things up and doing all the logistical things that the process entails. It’s somewhat bittersweet but I am excited to open a new chapter.

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Originally Posted by URS0
Was cleaning out a closet yesterday in preparation for my upcoming move. Stumbled across a card from W given to me on our 5th anniversary. This would have been just 15 months before BD.

- “I’m so happy to have you in my life…”
- “I want to spend all of my life with you.”
- “You are my best friend and I love you so so much.”
- “I wish us all the happiness in the world as we walk towards the future - always together.”

I know that her current view of our shared history is a strange reimagined fiction that does not comport with reality. But there is something particularly jarring about reading her own words from a not so distant past. The pain of the loss continues to diminish each week but the mystery of what actually transpired to provoke her sudden flight remains. I suspect it always will. I’m trying to accept that.

In other news, I’m moving cross country in 5 weeks. Slowly packing things up and doing all the logistical things that the process entails. It’s somewhat bittersweet but I am excited to open a new chapter.

I have gone through the same thing, so I know how you feel. Doing lots of cleaning out and sorting, I also discovered a lot of this old stuff. Cards I sent her from the early days of our relationship, old emails I sent, cards she sent me. Back in the "old days," she even printed out and stashed a lot of my early emails. I found a folder with those in a drawer.

I'm removing whatever she sent me, but leaving behind what is hers. Most likely, when she goes through the drawers, she'll find it and realize she had forgotten about it, and just toss it out. Maybe she'll look at it briefly and it will remind her of her "old self." Who knows.

The hard reality is that people are imperfect and sometimes inscrutable beings. We live a life where most of the time, we are oblivious to how much our comfortable existence actually rests on a knife edge. I am at the point where I also am looking forward with curiosity rather than fear. What you are doing is the right thing. The future is rife with possibility. We should all embrace it.

Best of all, it's clear that you still believe in those values that made her say those things to you back then. Hold on tight to them and don't build a wall around your heart. Those values make you a person of integrity, and that will serve you well.


Me 59 W 47
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Feeling sad today. At the beginning of August I realized there was no relationship to continue standing for. I’m proud of the way I handled those long, terrible first 8 months, but I no longer saw healthy reason to carry on. At that point I offered to help with the divorce she claimed to want so badly and encouraged mediation. Of course it would have been to logical for W to have welcomed this offering. Seems that is not in the cards. She say she needs a lawyer for security and to protect her rights. I always knew this was a possible outcome but it’s still so sad that she is so far gone that she thinks I am out to get her in some way. You just can’t win in these situations it seems.

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I’m so sorry to hear about your sadness URSO. I’m in the same boat and know how it feels. I stood for 9 months and lived in limbo and H constantly just coasting along and not doing any of his own work or work to relationship. I too decided to “give him what he wants” and instigated legal talks again after he was just throwing the words around. He had a hissy fit and decided to take a job relocation on the other side of the globe. So I know what that sadness feels today, the fact we couldn’t stand anymore. But there comes a point where we have to turn our focus on ourselves and put ourselves first instead of putting our messed up spouses first.
It sounds like your W is also having her version of a hissy fit by making your life difficult with lawyers. They hate losing control. I can see that now. H hates that I had said “let’s legalise this separation sell the house and go our seperate ways and coparent”. H decided “nope I need to cause maximum damage time to flee because I don’t like this”. I’m not sure if your W is in MLC mode too but it really is a sad state of mind
I think you need to remember that out of all of this we are the success. We have stood, we have grown we have evolved and we were not the ones who ended the marriage and walked away. They did at BD, and they also did every single day when we would give 100% effort to save and stand and they would give 0%. We are the success. It’s okay to be sad after making the right decision


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URS0, I don't know your situation too well, but I feel for you. I know those feelings of confusion, loss, pain. Do you think her getting an L is adversarial in some way, or possibly just precaution? Either way, you almost can't expect a logical reaction about anything from the WAS during the separation and D process.

Post more updates if it helps you. Are you still about to move? And did you say why you were moving? Sorry if I missed it


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I want to second what Pattnee5 says about making the right decision and being sad NOT being mutually exclusive. We can be really torn about wanting to save the marriage, spare kids the D, feeling like we've failed when and feeling stuck ourselves, unable to move on, and punching a wall. Even if you've done the DBing you could and the spouse isn't responsive, hopefully, you've gotten back your confidence, dignity, and health. Maintain your boundaries, don't let feelings drive your decisions (as another poster once said, there are plenty of people in prison who followed their feelings), and know you're doing all that is within your control.

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Good Morning U

Originally Posted by URS0
At the beginning of August I realized there was no relationship to continue standing for.

We all start out standing for our spouse and the relationship. We are so hurt and in shock it’s an almost default position.

In time, we heal and grow. We start to see with less rose coloured glasses. We find detachment and even indifference.

During this temporary muting / attenuation of the cacophony of our spouse and situation is an excellent opportunity to discover one’s deeply held beliefs and convictions. Strengthen those values that serve, craft those you aspire to, and discard/alter those that do not serve.

Standing changes. Perfectly normal. Standing evolves into standing for you. Standing for your convictions.

Allow ample time and effort to dig into this inner work. (Re)Discover yourself. Stand for you.

D


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And it’s time for a new thread.


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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